Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: FlamingCobra on October 02, 2011, 10:18:22 am
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So did only the Terrans discover the flaw in the Loki's design, nullifying its stealth capabilities, or did the Shivans discover it too?
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Go and ask your nearest shivan representative.
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Never forget the vasudans.
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Look for any retail mission in which you can fly a Loki against Shivans and check if they spot you.
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You don't even know if Shivans need targeting at all.
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Why wouldn't they use computerized targeting, aiming assist, etc., especially when they have missiles that are detected by Terran lock indicators the same way Terran and Vasudan missiles are even before the Shivan ships themselves can be targeted, indicating that the basic technology is similar?
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That and Pegasus/Ptah stealth works the same against Terrans/Vasudans and Shivans.
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Why wouldn't they use computerized targeting, aiming assist, etc., especially when they have missiles that are detected by Terran lock indicators the same way Terran and Vasudan missiles are even before the Shivan ships themselves can be targeted, indicating that the basic technology is similar?
I fail to see how the way our own systems are able to target missiles is any indication on the way a completely different alien specie needs or not to target ships.
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That and Pegasus/Ptah stealth works the same against Terrans/Vasudans and Shivans.
Actually, in the one mission that its used the Ptah is less effective against Shivans since the Sathanas has an AWACs flag...
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Since when is the Sathanas an AWACS?
And I'm starting to think the answer is yes because if the stealth on the Loki still worked against Shivans, why would the GTVA develop a new stealth/recon fighter (aka the Pegasus and Ptah)
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It has an awacs flag on one of its subsystems.
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In the original Silent Threat campaign, it took very little amount of time before the Stealthiness of the Loki was thwarted (if I recall correctly). Judging by that, and the fact the Shivans more than likely engaged the GTI party using them before, they more than likely followed suit in trying to figure it out. Either that, or their targeting system was far more advanced and could detect them either way
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I'm envisioning a Shivan chortling at the Terrans' feeble attempt at hiding from them.
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I'm envisioning a Shivan chortling at the Terrans' feeble attempt at hiding from them.
^ This ^
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I fail to see how the way our own systems are able to target missiles is any indication on the way a completely different alien specie needs or not to target ships.
You just completely missed the point, try learning how a lock-threat system works and notice yours does before anybody even gave the Shivans a name, then come back.
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Again, you don't give any indication that the way OUR technology works is in any way related to the way a completely alien technology works.
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Again, you don't give any indication that the way OUR technology works is in any way related to the way a completely alien technology works.
Learn how a lock-threat indicator works. Learn how a lock-threat indicator works. LEARN HOW A LOCK-THREAT INDICATOR WORKS.
I can only say it so many ways.
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For anyone not inclined or willing to do the research (and shame on you for so being, dammit) I shall explain.
The first time you meet Shivans, your fighter is able to detect the fact their fighters are seeking or have missile lock on you. It is also able to detect the fact one of their missiles has lost this lock. This means they must be using similiar systems to you, the Vasudans, or both. Why?
Lock-threat indicators, how do they ****ing work?
Radars are really awesome things. So are ladars or whatever doohicky they're using in FS. However there are problems. Your radar is scanning a 360 bubble around your fighter out to a very long range. This slows it down enough that providing accurate targeting information on a single object at long ranges (or even short ones) is troublesome. So you either have a special radar mode or a secondary system to focus on one target to get accurate targeting data; that's the one you have locked and you cycle through them with T.
Your missiles are being passed this data and using it to adjust their own homing systems and track the target. That's missile lock time. This may also require a special mode or another secondary system, possibly the missile's own sensors.
These modes and secondary systems are detectable to other ships. If you're in a flight of twenty closely spaced ships and a Shivan locks you from 5 kilometers away, your ship knows that you're the one actually being targeted by detecting the fact you're not being hit with the primary mode/system, but with the secondary. Your fighter can tell that enemy one is going for or has missile lock by the same means. It can tell when a missile has lost you as a target because its active homing is no longer painting your hull with whatever sensor waves it uses. (Which makes MX-series locks being known evaded kind of weird but it's what we're stuck with. Maybe they meant infrared laser homing; alternately the missile is being passed control signals and that's really the Azimuth Sector light equivalent.)
The fact your fighter can detect this before the Shivans have had their electronics gear stolen in later missions means that they have to be using similar systems to either your fighter or your (known) enemies' fighters for your fighter to even recognize their targeting, missile lock, and missile homing modes.
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So you're basing a whole rant on a minute point of gameplay ? Well done.
It's not like if fluff and gameplay were already contradicting in multiple places, is it ?
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So you're basing a whole rant on a minute point of gameplay ? Well done.
It's not like if fluff and gameplay were already contradicting in multiple places, is it ?
It would behoove you to take correction gracefully unless you have something worthwhile and reasoned to contribute to the discussion.
Alternately, go crack open the game code and tell me why that light on my HUD flashes. Go on, I'll wait.
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And because I'm doubleposting like a madman, I'm not making this **** up: that's how real-world aircraft and their Radar Warning Receivers work.
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Oh yes, right. Realism. In my Freespace. How could I forget about that.
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Oh yes, right. Realism. In my Freespace. How could I forget about that.
So you have a better explanation? One that explains how your fighter is able to detect the fact you are targeted and that enemies are seeking missile lock separately? One that explains how it can tell when you've evaded a missile even when it comes in on a dead aft bearing and you didn't turn at all?
Go on, we're waiting. Speak your genius. We seek enlightenment.
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One word. Oversight.
Cause we all know how rigorous Volition was in Freespace in general, right ?
Keep in mind that I'm not saying they're definitely not using systems similar to ours. I just say that you can't be sure they are.
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Keep in mind that I'm not saying they're definitely not using systems similar to ours. I just say that you can't be sure they are.
Practically, there's no other way the system could work but to detect these things and their various degrees. You have to do it this way. It's not like they can rely on where his nose is pointed. There can easily be thirty-degree differences between nose pointing and missile target, but it will lock and fire. (To say nothing of the FOV of a missile mount on a warship like in the FS1 training missions, or on the Moloch and Deimos.) It's the same thing with a missile coming in from dead aft, you launch a countermeasure, it goes dead aft too, but your fighter still realizes somehow that the missile is now attacking the countermeasure rather than you.
That's why I asked you to describe another way. There isn't one that works for this context. You have to be able to read the enemy's mind, and that means reading his emissions since his physical actions are not always indicative.
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My point when talking about oversight, was that this little detail of gameplay isn't trustworthy enough to indicate that Volition wanted the Shivans to have such a similar technological basis to ours. Which would mean that, in case it indeed is an oversight, then we aren't supposed to detect these locks at that stage of our comprehension of Shivan tech.
EDIT: I must also add that I think it would be a shame to see modder's creativity be restrained about Shivan tech just because this is canon by such a minute detail of gameplay.
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Yeah, no. In the absence of other information, gameplay is canon. Of course modders are free to reinterpret what is seen in retail, but saying "this can't be canon cos
I don't like itit's probably an oversight" is just stupid.
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Where did I say "this can't be canon" ?
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The E is saying, I think, that canon is what made it to release. The little inconsistencies like that are now forever a part of the game universe. It's too late to go back on them, we have to live with and justify them instead. (Or just throw them the **** out and say it was for the good of the story, but at least admit we're throwing it out.)
That and the fact that the Shivans are (admitted by FS2) constrained by the same physical laws means that while their systems may be laid out differently, on a subject like how to determine optimal pulse repetition for accurate information on a moving target the governing factors are in the math, not the psychology.
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Popcorn... I need moar.
Such a heated debate over something so trivial! :p
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Popcorn... I need moar.
Such a heated debate over something so trivial! :p
Aaand welcome to HLP.
Hell, welcome to the Internet. :p
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Well, it was exciting reading, though :D