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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Black Wolf on October 05, 2011, 06:53:58 pm

Title: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Black Wolf on October 05, 2011, 06:53:58 pm
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/steve-jobs-apple-ceo-dies/story?id=14383813

Whatever your opinion of Apple stuff, you can't deny the man's influence on 21st century technology.
Title: Steve Jobs is dead
Post by: Luis Dias on October 05, 2011, 06:55:21 pm
RIP Steve

(http://images.apple.com/stevejobs/images/t_title.png)

http://www.apple.com/stevejobs/
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mars on October 05, 2011, 07:33:15 pm
Steve Jobs - innovator, inventor, and the first guy to figure out that you can slap a designer label on ANYTHING.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 05, 2011, 08:15:28 pm
Just got the news... Really kinda speechless.
Though I am wondering what this means for Apple.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mr. Vega on October 05, 2011, 09:21:56 pm
Well, he was an amazing marketer.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Dilmah G on October 05, 2011, 11:15:17 pm
Top bloke. Guess I will end up getting that iPhone.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 05, 2011, 11:33:29 pm
I'm so not elated by this.
:)
totally not the absolute best news I could have heard before going to sleep.
I'm totally not going to have to play it cool tomorrow around all the apple fan-boys I work with.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mongoose on October 05, 2011, 11:59:32 pm
And that's a warning.  Don't be a dick in here.

I was no personal fan of Apple products myself, but the guy was way ahead of his time and many regards.  Plus, he was responsible for Pixar's existence.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 06, 2011, 12:46:12 am
:wtf:
In regards of single-handedly turning the IT industry into a patent war ****hole while pandering sub-par products in a flashy case, yeah, I agree way ahead of his time.
No I refuse to morn. I refuse to pretend he wasn't of the most vile **** peddlers on the earth. I work in the IT industry and Apple is sparring no expense in trying to turn everything into a proprietary lock in, trying to destroy the free and open ecosystem, look at what they did with HTML5 video, look at what they are doing now with Samsung.
The man was my personal Osama bin Laden.
Don't give me that pandering PC bull**** and don't be the ****ing thought police.
if he didn't earn my hatred he wouldn't have it.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Sushi on October 06, 2011, 12:56:32 am
Stay classy, Bobboau.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mongoose on October 06, 2011, 01:03:10 am
Aaaand you're warned even more.  I'm sure an admin would be happy to give you a bit of time off, if that's what you want.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 06, 2011, 01:10:31 am
I had nothing else to say on this subject until you decided you didn't like my attitude toward The Emperor.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Klaustrophobia on October 06, 2011, 01:35:29 am
i don't get why everyone's making such a big deal out of him dying.  i thought everyone was supposed to hate greedy corperations and CEOs these days?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Nuke on October 06, 2011, 02:00:10 am
id be happy to split out bobboau's anti-apple sentiments, unfortunately i happen to agree with them. and while i do own an ancient 5th gen ipod which miraculously still runs, it will never again run the apple firmware (which is probably why it still runs). reguardless this thread is about the man and not the crap his company produces, so bash the hardware in a different thread.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Zacam on October 06, 2011, 02:16:10 am
Actually, this Administrator was more than happy to reverse the warnings levied against Bob.

I don't see him having been a dick, but I did see you be a dick in asking him to not be one. A PM or something would have been far more responsible a solution.

His posts stand. That is, unless the OP (Black Wolf) who is also a Global Moderator happens to have something to say about activity in his own thread.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: karajorma on October 06, 2011, 02:29:45 am
Still there is a certain something to be said for showing some respect for the dead. Even if like me you think that Jobs like Gates were better salemen than innovators.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mongoose on October 06, 2011, 02:39:05 am
I don't care if people hated the guy's products, or policies, or turtlenecks, or whatever.  But in a thread seemingly dedicated to noting his contributions to the industry and society, expressing open glee at his passing seems grossly inappropriate, at least to me.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Zacam on October 06, 2011, 02:43:15 am

I can respect the fact that Pancreatic Cancer is not a fun way to go. And that Jobs had some significant cajones to pull of surviving with it for 7 years and still making business happen all the way up until August of this year when he officially stepped down.

No matter the personal opinion of his practices, products, speeches or thoughts, he was living KNOWING more so than any of the rest of us that he was on borrowed time and he held his head up and RAN **** for 7 years.

Also, one must not be confused with Apple decisions being Steve Jobs decisions. He may have been the founder, but the higher you go, surprisingly, there is more to answer for and to and the only way to answer to most of it is by making a profit. And there were many years where he wasn't at the helm that saw a lot of changes to Apple as a whole, but the consistent thing that kept Apple running was Jobs.

Also, I can't think of a single legitimate IT department that actually concerns itself with Apple products in any department, other than perhaps at Pixar.

Not an Apple fan, not an owner of any Apple Products, not a fan of the Apple OS/iOS ... But still. I can salute that he held **** together probably far better than I would have in his condition.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: JCDNWarrior on October 06, 2011, 03:22:44 am
I can't say I really liked Steve Jobs, I know some of his history, working in IT industry as well having a lot of contact with Apple (and customer experiences with Apple) but it's typical and kinda a shame that life extension technology and all the other methods didn't help to keep him alive. Given the kind of stuff we have, if I was Steve Jobs (with a mindset of a billionaire)  I would even go cyborg if need be to stay alive.

In that regards it's tragic, in his actions as the Apple CEO however, his death will not make such decisions better.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: newman on October 06, 2011, 03:26:45 am
You don't have to like Apple or Steve Jobs in particular. Hell, I never owned a Mac and probably never will. Respect for the dead, or if that's too much to ask at least being silent about it, has nothing to do with one's opinion on Apple and everything to do with maintaining a minimum level of civilized behavior. Openly celebrating the man dying of pancreatic cancer is infantile and tasteless at best. The man wasn't a war criminal or a terrorist. Don't have anything nice to say about him after him dying from a nasty illness? No problem, just move on.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mars on October 06, 2011, 04:00:10 am
i don't get why everyone's making such a big deal out of him dying.  i thought everyone was supposed to hate greedy corperations and CEOs these days?

This,

This times 10,000

Also, I've never understood the idea of respect for the dead. They're dead. I highly doubt that many people will have much good to say about me (there will be some) but in a way, it'd be nice for death to be a time for people to actually be honest.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: karajorma on October 06, 2011, 04:07:05 am
i don't get why everyone's making such a big deal out of him dying.  i thought everyone was supposed to hate greedy corperations and CEOs these days?

This,

This times 10,000

Remind me to ban you as soon as anyone in Volition falls ill.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mars on October 06, 2011, 04:11:26 am
It will make me considerably sadder, but it will still be sufficiently far enough outside my life to barely effect me. It wouldn't be like I lost a friend for instance.

Also, little difference in corporation size I think.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: karajorma on October 06, 2011, 04:58:05 am
So if it barely affects you, why be an arse about it?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mefustae on October 06, 2011, 06:22:45 am
So if it barely affects you, why be an arse about it?

Why does the internet exist if not for openly expressing opinions best not shared around the water cooler at work? Steve would have wanted that.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: JCDNWarrior on October 06, 2011, 07:10:20 am
Just an addition, I can't help but facepalm at the chosen method of fighting cancer with chemotherapy and radiotherapy. With all the money you have available.. Let's just say I, with my extremely limited knowledge in health, would definitely not have made such a choice. As said before, would have done every crazy science fiction thing available to extend life, stay/become healthy and have extremely healthy foods. I guess he wasn't informed about other, better methods to fight it.

Then again as said I am not a doctor.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: headdie on October 06, 2011, 07:22:05 am
All i have to say is that if some one said something nasty about someone i knew and had died i would be furious and it is on that basis that i choose to try and respect the dead no matter what i thought of them in life.

as the saying goes:
Quote
Do to others as you would have done to you
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: The E on October 06, 2011, 07:30:52 am
Just an addition, I can't help but facepalm at the chosen method of fighting cancer with chemotherapy and radiotherapy. With all the money you have available.. Let's just say I, with my extremely limited knowledge in health, would definitely not have made such a choice. As said before, would have done every crazy science fiction thing available to extend life, stay/become healthy and have extremely healthy foods. I guess he wasn't informed about other, better methods to fight it.

Then again as said I am not a doctor.

Yeah. You definitely aren't a doctor.

For a cancer patient in his condition "extremely healthy food" (what is that supposed to be anyway?) or "staying/becoming healthy" (Seriously? Did you REALLY just say that, in order to fight cancer, one should "become healthy"? WTF, Dude?) aren't available options anymore. Yes, Chemo and Radiotherapy should be a last resort. And I would assume that his physicians know this, but didn't have any other choice.

So, please. Enlighten us about your "better methods". I would really like to hear about them.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 06, 2011, 07:34:39 am
yeah, he was insanely rich, and well educated, the fact it took 7 years for this to kill him when it usually takes 7 weeks should be testament to how good his treatment was.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: newman on October 06, 2011, 07:41:17 am
With the resources he had at his disposal, and without any medical background on my part I can only assume he did everything currently possible to keep himself alive. So, in my professional medical opinion as someone who never even considered a career in medicine, when your number is up, it's up :)
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: StarSlayer on October 06, 2011, 08:13:30 am
With the resources he had at his disposal, and without any medical background on my part I can only assume he did everything currently possible to keep himself alive. So, in my professional medical opinion as someone who never even considered a career in medicine, when your number is up, it's up :)

Pancreatic is a **** way to go, its hard to detect in the early stages and so generally to late to do anything but stave off the inevitable for a few years.  Doesn't matter how fit and healthy you are. 
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Woolie Wool on October 06, 2011, 08:27:28 am
Just an addition, I can't help but facepalm at the chosen method of fighting cancer with chemotherapy and radiotherapy. With all the money you have available.. Let's just say I, with my extremely limited knowledge in health, would definitely not have made such a choice. As said before, would have done every crazy science fiction thing available to extend life, stay/become healthy and have extremely healthy foods. I guess he wasn't informed about other, better methods to fight it.

Then again as said I am not a doctor.

Chemotherapy and radiation are used because cancer cells are human cells. They're not an invader that can be targeted with a certain antibiotic or other drug. There is no way to reliably destroy them without destroying healthy tissue. In some ways chemotherapy is basically deploying WMDs in the human body and hoping the cancer dies before the patient. We use it because we have no better options.

I think Jobs was a phenomenal businessman and marketer, whatever his faults may be, and that slowly dying over seven years of pancreatic cancer is pretty horrible and tragic for anyone.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Woolie Wool on October 06, 2011, 08:29:03 am
Just an addition, I can't help but facepalm at the chosen method of fighting cancer with chemotherapy and radiotherapy. With all the money you have available.. Let's just say I, with my extremely limited knowledge in health, would definitely not have made such a choice. As said before, would have done every crazy science fiction thing available to extend life, stay/become healthy and have extremely healthy foods. I guess he wasn't informed about other, better methods to fight it.

Then again as said I am not a doctor.

Chemotherapy and radiation are used because cancer cells are human cells. They're not an invader that can be targeted with a certain antibiotic or other drug. There is no way to reliably destroy them without destroying healthy tissue. In some ways chemotherapy is basically deploying WMDs in the human body and hoping the cancer dies before the patient. We use it because we have no better options. "Eating healthy" and other lifestyle measures don't do jack **** when your own body has decided it wants to kill you.

I think Jobs was a phenomenal businessman and marketer, whatever his faults may be, and that slowly dying over seven years of pancreatic cancer is pretty horrible and tragic for anyone.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Lucika on October 06, 2011, 10:06:32 am
(http://m.blog.hu/po/poligraf/image/steve_jobs_is_dead_1457755(1).jpg)
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Dragon on October 06, 2011, 10:50:20 am
Chemotherapy and radiation are used because cancer cells are human cells. They're not an invader that can be targeted with a certain antibiotic or other drug. There is no way to reliably destroy them without destroying healthy tissue. In some ways chemotherapy is basically deploying WMDs in the human body and hoping the cancer dies before the patient. We use it because we have no better options.
What about proton or antiproton therapy? I know they're expensive as heck, still experimental and there are few places where they can be performed, but I doubt Steve Jobs would have a problem with these limitations.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: The E on October 06, 2011, 11:02:48 am
What about not trying to second-guess what kind of experimental therapy the guy had or didn't have?

The history here is really a bit tragic. Back when he was first diagnosed, he tried to get it treated using alternate methods, which is why he lost an enormous amount of weight in the past years. After it turned out that those methods didn't help, he went for "traditional" treatments, including a liver transplant. Now, the problem is that that transplant, and the medication required to stop his body from rejecting it, precluded the most effective means of chemotherapy.

See also: http://www.skepticblog.org/2011/10/06/steve-jobs-succumbs-to-alternative-medicine/
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Sushi on October 06, 2011, 11:47:25 am
So if it barely affects you, why be an arse about it?

Why does the internet exist if not for openly expressing opinions best not shared around the water cooler at work? Steve would have wanted that.

Maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but that's not the kind of internet I want. IMO there are very few legitimate reasons for saying something anonymously that you wouldn't also be willing to say to people you know well. One of the things that I like about HLP is that there is relatively little of this (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/), and I'd prefer for it to stay that w ay.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 06, 2011, 12:31:51 pm
I'm quite disappointed by some comments in here, specially the ridiculous one equating Steve Jobs with Osama Bin Laden, spreading lies about its role in the patent wars, and all the bull**** about "openness" (What the frak is open about a company who abuses its position on building parts of the iPhone to copy not only the hardware but also the software side of it, without any concerns for its own legitimacy? People confuse "stolen" with "open" all too easily).

I'm no fond of corporations, but mr Jobs was an impressive over-achiever, and changed our lives forever even if you don't even like apple products at all. To compare this man with a terrorist that has thousands of people's blood on his hands is despicable, horrible, disgusting. The ones who agree with that sentiment are morally clueless.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mongoose on October 06, 2011, 01:41:51 pm
Also, I've never understood the idea of respect for the dead. They're dead. I highly doubt that many people will have much good to say about me (there will be some) but in a way, it'd be nice for death to be a time for people to actually be honest.
Um, maybe because even though the deceased may not appreciate the respect, the grieving people they left behind sure as hell will?  This isn't exactly social rocket science here.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mr. Vega on October 06, 2011, 02:13:04 pm
I agree that Bobboau language has been insensitive, but his assessment of Jobs' career isn't wrong, and you can argue that kind of attack is justified in the light of the character worship Jobs is getting right now. He was nothing of the sort.

[EDIT]I think this sums it up:

http://xkcd.com/961/
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Herra Tohtori on October 06, 2011, 02:30:53 pm
I have no strong feelings one way or another. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ)
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 06, 2011, 04:01:09 pm
All i have to say is that if some one said something nasty about someone i knew and had died i would be furious and it is on that basis that i choose to try and respect the dead no matter what i thought of them in life.
I try to be honest.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: castor on October 06, 2011, 04:15:26 pm
Also, I've never understood the idea of respect for the dead. They're dead.
Well, maybe the dead remind us that one day its our turn to go, and that there's absolutely nothing we can do about it - death comes and ends us, no questions asked.
I find that easy to respect.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Woolie Wool on October 06, 2011, 05:00:56 pm
Also, I've never understood the idea of respect for the dead. They're dead. I highly doubt that many people will have much good to say about me (there will be some) but in a way, it'd be nice for death to be a time for people to actually be honest.
Um, maybe because even though the deceased may not appreciate the respect, the grieving people they left behind sure as hell will?  This isn't exactly social rocket science here.

Respecting the grief of the bereaved is no longer hip. In this age of imageboards, the cool people act like dicks for the lulz the sake of being a dick. :nono:

I hate humanity sometimes. I don't think everything Steve Jobs did was wonderful, but the amount of suffering he must have gone through in the past seven years is beyond imagination. Cancer sucks.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 06, 2011, 05:09:22 pm
I agree that Bobboau language has been insensitive, but his assessment of Jobs' career isn't wrong, and you can argue that kind of attack is justified in the light of the character worship Jobs is getting right now. He was nothing of the sort.

His assessment of Jobs' career is ignorant bashing. To justify such attacks because of the "character worship" is losing one's perspective. No man is perfect, no man is without flaws. To call Jobs a "Osama Bin Laden" is so flat out gargantuanly ridiculous over the top that I'm speechless to the "agreement" that he seems to be having here.

I'm really appaled.

Quote
[EDIT]I think this sums it up:

http://xkcd.com/961/

Was that a joke? xkcd? Really?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Raiden on October 06, 2011, 05:10:13 pm
I'm so not elated by this.
:)
totally not the absolute best news I could have heard before going to sleep.
I'm totally not going to have to play it cool tomorrow around all the apple fan-boys I work with.

You're a ****ing sicko, man. Elated? The absolute best news? You must be a joy to know IRL.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mars on October 06, 2011, 05:14:37 pm
I was not trying to be an ass. Jobs was one of the rich that I generally regard as the enemy. It's not personal, but I can't help but wonder why there's so much talk of this. If Bloomburg died, there wouldn't be all this notice.

Also, when I die, maybe two dozen people will notice; I'm not putting Jobs below me in the least.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: swashmebuckle on October 06, 2011, 05:33:16 pm
It's a good idea to keep your feelings to yourself if the act of sharing those feelings is going to come across as dancing on someone's grave.  There's plenty of time for honest evaluation of the guy's career and choices; celebrating a person's death immediately after the fact will always look like an effort at grabbing people's attention, even if you don't mean it that way.  Steve Jobs' death is not about any of us.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mars on October 06, 2011, 05:46:56 pm
His death is indeed not about any of us, which is why I wonder why its at the top of my BBC report and all over Facebook.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 06, 2011, 06:06:12 pm
OMG a remarkably famous and appreciated person died and the media dares to mention it!

Where is the world headed, I ask thee?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mongoose on October 06, 2011, 06:14:56 pm
I was not trying to be an ass. Jobs was one of the rich that I generally regard as the enemy. It's not personal, but I can't help but wonder why there's so much talk of this. If Bloomburg died, there wouldn't be all this notice.
Perhaps because a great many people feel that Steve Jobs has contributed far more to their lives than your garden-variety CEO.  I'm not necessarily one of them (unless you talk about interface stuff like giving the mainstream world the mouse), but I respect the sentiment.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Ghostavo on October 06, 2011, 07:07:37 pm
While I don't really like the guy, due to where he directed the industry towards, I'm saddened to see someone linked with IT having a brain fart about the best way to treat his disease, namely by wishing it goes away by doing nothing (http://www.skepticblog.org/2011/10/06/steve-jobs-succumbs-to-alternative-medicine/).
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: karajorma on October 06, 2011, 07:09:12 pm
All the more reason to point that out so that the next person to get it might realise it's a really bad idea.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: StarSlayer on October 06, 2011, 07:39:54 pm
Yeah, I dunno if you all get the fact that Pancreatic Cancer is friggen lethal, that he even got seven years is bloody amazing.  I've been up close and personal with the disease, this isn't something that you can treat into submission, either you eventually die from the cancer or the chemo, there is no beating Pancreatic Cancer.  It is a death sentence and if you actually derive some sense of joy from someone succumbing from it your a god damn ****wad.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: karajorma on October 06, 2011, 08:31:53 pm
Usually, yes. But apparently based on the link Ghostavo posted he had an islet cell neuroendocrine tumor which is a rarer but fairly survivable kind. As the article says, the median survival time there is actually 10 years, so he actually had less time than most. Part of which might possibly be attributable to the fact that he didn't treat it properly for 9 months after detection.

That said, I tend to agree with your assessment of anyone who is happy he's dead.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: swashmebuckle on October 06, 2011, 08:52:47 pm
His death is indeed not about any of us, which is why I wonder why its at the top of my BBC report and all over Facebook.
The gravedancing part of my post wasn't directed at you, Mars.  I do think that posting right now about how Jobs' death isn't/shouldn't be a big deal (when it clearly is to a lot of people), particularly if you feel that he is your enemy, IS sort of making it personal though.  Even if you don't get the outpouring of empathy for him and his family, or you think that he didn't have a positive impact on your life, any posts trying to downplay his death are going to come off wrong to me because they have the effect of redirecting attention towards the poster.  It's sort like standing in front of something and shouting "Don't look at this!"--it reinforces how Jobs was a polarizing and important figure, and kinda pulls the poster into the ring along with him.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Beskargam on October 06, 2011, 11:29:49 pm
r.i.p. you changed a lot.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 06, 2011, 11:43:16 pm
he didn't treat it properly for 9 months after detection. [due to snake oil]

I may be dancing on his grave, but that does piss me right off.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mr. Vega on October 07, 2011, 02:46:20 am
I agree that Bobboau language has been insensitive, but his assessment of Jobs' career isn't wrong, and you can argue that kind of attack is justified in the light of the character worship Jobs is getting right now. He was nothing of the sort.

His assessment of Jobs' career is ignorant bashing. To justify such attacks because of the "character worship" is losing one's perspective. No man is perfect, no man is without flaws. To call Jobs a "Osama Bin Laden" is so flat out gargantuanly ridiculous over the top that I'm speechless to the "agreement" that he seems to be having here.

I'm really appaled.

Quote
[EDIT]I think this sums it up:

http://xkcd.com/961/

Was that a joke? xkcd? Really?
Do you want me to further specify my position to rid it of any unintended insensitivity? Jobs was a masterful marketer who convinced the media and public that his products were of a much higher quality and level of innovation than they actually were. He is one of many people that a secular cult developed around fueled by sycophantic tendencies of the media, who want nothing more than to extoll the supreme virtues of a goddamn salesman. While I know little of him personally, I am quite capable of noticing how the image of him was warped and distorted into something that scarcely resembled the reality of him or his company. As such, while I am sad for his death as I am sad for any man's death, I think it's a good idea to burst the bubble of everyone who wants to use his death to turn the hero worship of him up to eleven. Because I despise the industry of false hero-making, and it would be to the benefit of everyone if that industry were discredited so only actual, deserving individuals should get such praise. So I agree with Bobboau in that he attempted to do this. I did not condone the particular language he used.

Happy? Of course not, because I'm not allowed to state an opinion as long as you consider it to be ignorant bashing.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 07, 2011, 04:16:06 am
There's plenty of time for honest evaluation of the guy's career and choices;

These opinions were never exactly secrets. They were expressed while the man was alive. Attempts to censor them out of "respect for the dead" are at best misguided.

It is more important to speak the truth of a man after he is dead, so that his legacy may be properly understood.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 07, 2011, 05:45:27 am
Jobs was a masterful marketer who convinced the media and public that his products were of a much higher quality and level of innovation than they actually were. He is one of many people that a secular cult developed around fueled by sycophantic tendencies of the media, who want nothing more than to extoll the supreme virtues of a goddamn salesman.

I won't negate any of this. I personally have quit the urge to deconvert people from their religious beliefs, such as the one espoused here against all evidence and facts. You simply do not understand Apple and why their products are good and innovative, because in your mind "innovation" = "specs". This is all too common amongst people that work in programming, must be a cultural thing.

Quote
While I know little of him personally, I am quite capable of noticing how the image of him was warped and distorted into something that scarcely resembled the reality of him or his company.

Ok, gimme one example of such.

Quote
As such, while I am sad for his death as I am sad for any man's death, I think it's a good idea to burst the bubble of everyone who wants to use his death to turn the hero worship of him up to eleven. Because I despise the industry of false hero-making, and it would be to the benefit of everyone if that industry were discredited so only actual, deserving individuals should get such praise. So I agree with Bobboau in that he attempted to do this. I did not condone the particular language he used.

What he did is immature and idiotic. We can all do what he did, the question is if we are still 4 year olds with such urges or not. Jobs was quite a different CEO from mostly everyone else (look at HP's last CEO for comparison, or Elop, or Google's ridiculous CEO for years, etc.), and he took a company that was in shambles in 97 and turned it into the most valued company in the world, by innovating and pushing the industry forward with their computer designs (were it not for apple we would still be using beige boxes and dull monitors), their ipods, the iPhone and the ipad.

Is this an "altruistic" company? FFS. It's a corporation. Let's get some proportion here. Just because Apple has been doing an amazing job the last ten years, does that mean we should expect them to embrace linux and open source for everyone, etc.?

Quote
Happy? Of course not, because I'm not allowed to state an opinion as long as you consider it to be ignorant bashing.

I'm not happy, and I don't ****ing have a clue on how you got the idea that you "aren't" allowed to state your opinion, when you just did and legitimately so. Don't whine me at how your "free speech" is being oppressed when it's ****ing clear it isn't. What you cannot do is force me to agree with you and accept that some comments here are anything more than childish.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: The E on October 07, 2011, 06:22:13 am
As I am typing this on my phone, browsing the net while laying in the bathtub, I can't help but feel grateful for the work Jobs did. Sure, he didn't personally invent the idea of the smartphone, or the graphical user interface, but he was the catalyst that turned these things into products for the mass market. He was, together with Bill Gates, responsible for shaping the current hi-tech market.

I don't want to say that all of the stuff that came out of this development are positive. But just like not all consequences of turning the automobile into a mass-market product have been positive, those consequences that are should not be underestimated. For me, Jobs is in the same category as Henry Ford and other industrial pioneers. Not entirely because of what he did, but also due to the way he shaped, or helped to shape, the world we live in.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Raiden on October 07, 2011, 08:55:22 am
You got a way with words, The E. You summed it up nicely for me.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: karajorma on October 07, 2011, 12:49:24 pm
Until you remember that Ford was a Nazi. :p
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: The E on October 07, 2011, 12:55:16 pm
...

Yes, he was. That doesn't lessen the impact of his innovations. Also, what is it about the internet that brings out the nitpickers?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: swashmebuckle on October 07, 2011, 03:48:01 pm
There's plenty of time for honest evaluation of the guy's career and choices;

These opinions were never exactly secrets. They were expressed while the man was alive. Attempts to censor them out of "respect for the dead" are at best misguided.

It is more important to speak the truth of a man after he is dead, so that his legacy may be properly understood.
My mistake for using the word time--I meant to say that even if you believe that the end of Jobs' direct influence on the world is a good thing, partying is not a constructive way to communicate your opinion of his legacy.  I wasn't trying to suggest that anyone censor their feelings on his career, just saying that celebrating his death doesn't accomplish anything besides making the poster sound really awful, particularly when it's immediately after the fact.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 07, 2011, 04:14:48 pm
Some people, I think, are forgetting Steve Jobs' past contributions...
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mr. Vega on October 07, 2011, 05:25:11 pm
We are not celebrating. That's rediculous. Steve Job was a brilliant marketer for a company that builds products that are often inferior and no more innovative to their competition but sold much better because of such marketing, and has its share of borrowings and other unethical buisness practices just as Microsoft does. Much of the worship he recieved, both before and now after his death, is based upon the image of him as an inventor of genius. I'm within my rights to burst that bubble. He had a hand in many wonderful developments, such as the creation of Pixar- of that I have no doubt. But treating him like he's the modern day Edison Tesla is just rediculous, which is what's happening right now.

Here's a fun little article by Orson Scott Card from 2005, deconstructing Apple's image through the years:
Quote
I don't know about you, but I'm about fed up with all the free -- and ridiculous -- advertising and publicity Apple Computers gets. If they decided to bottle air and sell it, calling it, no doubt, "PowerAir" or "AirMac" or "AirPod," they'd claim that they had invented air. Then all the articles about the new MacAir would treat that claim as if it were true and suddenly start treating other air-packagers as mere imitators, playing "catch-up" with Apple.

I remember years ago, when Apple came out with their PowerBook notebook computer. I was at a meeting with an extraordinarily dumb young movie producer who kept going on and on about all the cool things his PowerBook could do. "It can sign on the internet and get email! I can carry it with me on planes and it runs on batteries!"

Finally I got fed up and just showed him my Toshiba laptop. "I can do all those things, and this computer cost me a thousand dollars less than yours."

It was a cruel thing to do, I thought, to take the wind out of his sails like that. But no, I had forgotten: He was an Apple user! He gave me a withering look and said, "Yes, but mine is an Apple."

Well, yes, but he said it as if that were a good thing.

Think about it. All the rigid, corporate-determined uniformity and buy-it-from-us-or-drop-dead attitude of Microsoft, but you have to buy your hardware from them, too. I watch Apple users attempt to manipulate their clunky operating system -- click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, just to get where I can go with a single action on my keyboard -- and I hear them raving on and on about what wonderful things Apple is finally deigning to make available to them, but which PC users have had for years, and it all makes me vaguely sad.

"Windows crashes all the time," they say with a smirk. Then, when they're talking among themselves and they don't think you're listening, they reveal the evil truth: Macs crash too. And Mac software has bugs and flaws and security gaps and stupidity built in, just like Windows.

What Macs don't have is any competition. Once you've bought into the hype and forked over your money, they've got you and you can't get free without completely replacing everything.

The same thing has happened now with the iPod. I had been using wonderful MP3 players for years. My Rio Riot held twenty gigs of music. My little Panasonic E-Wear, and later my Rio Cali, let me take incredible amounts of music with me when I exercised or took long flights.

Then the iPod comes out and it doesn't do anything that I needed and didn't already have. Not only that, but it was deeply ugly, a plain ivory-colored box with pathetic controls that looked like it should hold generic earswabs. Compared to my Rio Riot, it was a piece of junk and looked like a piece of junk.

And now it seems to have taken over the world. Everything is geared toward iPods. I still have MP3 players with more capacity and better interface than the iPod, and people talk and write as if the iPod had invented the whole class of machine, and all the others were just imitations.

Even the current PC World magazine has been suckered into this Apple mystique. They had a "brave and daring" front-of-book essay about how PC makers ought to learn to do things more like Apple. And do you know what it came down to? The colors and shape of the cheap plastic they wrap their products in.

Yeah, that's right. They make the ugliest, silliest, most embarrassing-looking cheap plastic products in the industry, charge half again as much as you'd pay for a cleanly designed, functional looking product, and they are given credit for design!

I know what will happen, of course. A lot of smug Apple owners will write me taunting letters about how Windows crashes all the time. Old news, kiddies. My XP doesn't crash at all. And I have about a hundred times as much software to choose from, and can customize my own machine (despite the best efforts of Microsoft) a thousand times more than you can, and I'm paying less for it, and it looks like I actually intend to do serious work with it.

As for your iPod, I just have to shake my head and laugh. There are much better -- and better-looking -- products out there, and I already own some of them. But you go on believing that yours is the best in the world. That's what Apple depends on. You'll get into the harness, they'll put the blinders on you, and you'll think you're pulling the queen's carriage instead of the old farm wagon you're dragging along.

Also, I'm not a programmer. Don't claim the high-horse when you're trying to strawman me.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 07, 2011, 06:07:54 pm
The man wasn't a war criminal or a terrorist.
so, I see you don't work in the IT industry.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: karajorma on October 07, 2011, 06:43:07 pm
But treating him like he's a modern day Tesla or Edison is just rediculous, which is what's happening right now.

 :wakka:

The fact that he's a modern day Edison (http://www.cracked.com/funny-3345-historical-figures-who-were-actually-dicks/) seems to be exactly the problem you have with him. :p

Yes, he was. That doesn't lessen the impact of his innovations. Also, what is it about the internet that brings out the nitpickers?

There's a difference between a nitpick and a joke. :p
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: deathfun on October 07, 2011, 08:53:45 pm
I applied to Apple not too long ago but they said there were no Jobs left
And yes, I actually did apply

Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Mr. Vega on October 07, 2011, 09:46:34 pm
But treating him like he's a modern day Tesla or Edison is just rediculous, which is what's happening right now.

 :wakka:

The fact that he's a modern day Edison (http://www.cracked.com/funny-3345-historical-figures-who-were-actually-dicks/) seems to be exactly the problem you have with him. :p

Yes, he was. That doesn't lessen the impact of his innovations. Also, what is it about the internet that brings out the nitpickers?

There's a difference between a nitpick and a joke. :p
Damn, I at least thought he invented the light bulb.

Well, at least Tesla was awesome.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Ghostavo on October 08, 2011, 06:25:20 am
Stallman, also known for being attacked by ninjas (http://www.yale.edu/ypu/images/ninja2.jpg) and wielding katanas (http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/rms_katana.jpg), writes (http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_(Steve_Jobs)):

Quote
06 October 2011 (Steve Jobs)

Steve Jobs, the pioneer of the computer as a jail made cool, designed to sever fools from their freedom, has died.

As Chicago Mayor Harold Washington said of the corrupt former Mayor Daley, "I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone." Nobody deserves to have to die - not Jobs, not Mr. Bill, not even people guilty of bigger evils than theirs. But we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing.

Unfortunately, that influence continues despite his absence. We can only hope his successors, as they attempt to carry on his legacy, will be less effective.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Nuke on October 08, 2011, 06:41:52 am
But treating him like he's a modern day Tesla or Edison is just rediculous, which is what's happening right now.

 :wakka:

The fact that he's a modern day Edison (http://www.cracked.com/funny-3345-historical-figures-who-were-actually-dicks/) seems to be exactly the problem you have with him. :p

edison was a douchebag. patenting the inventions of others (like tesla) in his name. its sad that they give the guy so much credit
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Polpolion on October 08, 2011, 11:28:48 am
I applied to Apple not too long ago but they said there were no Jobs left
And yes, I actually did apply
:lol:
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 09, 2011, 06:02:05 pm
Steve Job was a brilliant marketer for a company that builds products that are often inferior and no more innovative to their competition but sold much better because of such marketing, and has its share of borrowings and other unethical buisness practices just as Microsoft does. Much of the worship he recieved, both before and now after his death, is based upon the image of him as an inventor of genius. I'm within my rights to burst that bubble. He had a hand in many wonderful developments, such as the creation of Pixar- of that I have no doubt. But treating him like he's the modern day Edison Tesla is just rediculous, which is what's happening right now.

Here's a fun little article by Orson Scott Card from 2005, deconstructing Apple's image through the years

Orson's article is ridiculous in hindsight. The ipod is ugly now? Where is the competition to the ipod touch? So ****ing ugly innit?

You have the faith to believe that apple's great advantage towards all the other companies was "marketing", that people are generally stupid and that's the only reason why this company has so many buyers - coz they're stupid.

This failure of "punditry" for all these years is impressive and it's even more impressive that so many people ate it for so long, despite the obvious evidences all around us. I've known these "pundits" for too long, always crying foul at apple and telling us how their doom was just around the corner, once the "public" got some senses. Well, they never did, did they? All the public is stupid and that's why they love Apple.

The alternative is just too obvious to be true, innit?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 09, 2011, 06:04:23 pm
ok, would you kindly tell us what exactly you think were a few of apples better 'innovations' ?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 09, 2011, 06:13:16 pm
The mouse?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 09, 2011, 06:19:57 pm
oh, you mean the thing that they got from Xerox?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Ghostavo on October 09, 2011, 06:58:49 pm
Just for hilarious reference. (http://www.cracked.com/article_18807_how-xerox-invented-information-age-and-gave-it-away.html)
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 09, 2011, 07:55:42 pm
lol!
That was informative. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: KyadCK on October 09, 2011, 08:13:59 pm
(http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/11oct/uf002320.gif)

Can't say I liked the guy or his products, but damn if he wasn't good at what he did.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Davros on October 12, 2011, 04:37:24 am
The doctors could of saved Steve Jobs,
but they weren't allowed to open him up and replace the faulty parts....
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: jr2 on October 12, 2011, 07:25:01 am
Wut?  They did replace his liver.  :wtf:
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Darius on October 12, 2011, 08:43:14 am
They could have saved my MacBook,

but they didn't open it up and replace the parts until it was too late.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 12, 2011, 09:12:46 am
ok, would you kindly tell us what exactly you think were a few of apples better 'innovations' ?

You think in terms of specs. We think in an opposite way. You will never understand apple and will always believe it's a bunch of crook salesmen with a lot of marketing. Why would I waste my time deconverting your beliefs, when it's clear you won't budge?

It's not about specs. It's about implementation. Xerox invented the mouse? Great. What did they do with it? Sold it blissfully to a naive company called "apple", who just reinvented the personal computer with it. Did they invent "multitouch"? No. They just perfected it and created the most successful smartphone ever. Did they invent AI? No. But where is Siri's competition? Did they invent handheld game consoles? No. And yet, which is exactly the ipod touch competition? Did they invent a "market of apps"? No. Yet their implementation of the app market shattered the broken "carrier -> user" link and created the most wealthy app market of any handheld device. Did they invent the tablet? No. They just did the first one that actually worked like people wanted it to, with the correct price point.

Do you think all of the above are easy things to do? Why didn't the rest of the industry did the same then?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: MP-Ryan on October 12, 2011, 09:40:24 am
Umm, the iPod Touch is not marketed solely as a handheld gaming device.  People don't buy iPod Touch's to game, they buy them as multifunction devices that are capable of gaming.

Regardless, luis, your point is somewhat negated by the fact that you sound like a rabid fanboy.

I don't think anyone disputes that Apple has had a particular flair for marketing devices that are in no way unique or special to the masses; most people just dispute how "superior" they are.  What Apple HAS very successfully done is marketed their devices to the lowest common denominator, making ridiculous sums of money and pissing off anyone who wants to use their devices their way instead of Apple's way.  That's why you find a lot of technically-savvy people who detest Apple, while people who are more concerned with basic usage and not advanced features or customization are often their biggest fans.  There are exceptions to the rule, of course.

Some examples:
-Apple didn't invent the portable MP3 player.  They didn't even perfect it (there are a lot of more versatile players, with more features, and larger capacity than the iPod series.  I have a Creative Zen Micro which still works, because the battery is replaceable, played FM radio as well, had more storage capacity than comparable iPods, and was $200 cheaper at the time).  They did successfully market MP3 players to the widest audience available, and made a fortune in the process.
-Apple didn't invent, or perfect, the smartphone.  In point of fact, early 1st-gen iPhones were junk, and newer Android devices are capable of a lot more, with a lot better hardware in them, and are cheaper.  What the iPhone did do is successfully plant the idea of a phone that replaces your phone/camera/MP3 player bunch of devices into one as a "must-have" accessory, and did it with a simplistic user interface so it isn't daunting to use for non-technical people.  And again, they made a fortune in the process.  But there are still a lot better products out there (particularly the next-generation Android devices, which anyone who has come to want to do things their way and not put up with iTunes/Apple's way has or will be switching to).
-Tablets.  The sole reason the iPad took off is because of fanboyism and pricing.  The fact of the matter is that Apple's tablets are massively inferior to tablet PCs that were on the market 6 years ago in terms of what they're capable of.  But, because Apple made the pricing look accessible (and a lot of people didn't know there were better alternative out there in terms of portable, interactive, multifunction devices) they sold a bunch.  Then they released the iPad2 with very little in the way of actual tangible improvement less than a year later and sold a bunch more, even to owners of the original iPad.

I see the appeal of Apple to people who just want things to work - but I hate how they cater to people who just don't want to learn about technology, and in the process narrow the abilities and features of the products they release, which in turn affects the entire tech sector.  Couple that with some extremely shady business practices (ridiculous patent lawsuits), misleading advertising (Yeah, macs don't get viruses... HA!), and restriction of the user experience to the "Apple experience," and I won't touch their products.

Some I'm kinda with bobb here - I really do hope that Apple's influence in the tech sector wanes.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Polpolion on October 12, 2011, 01:19:10 pm
ok, would you kindly tell us what exactly you think were a few of apples better 'innovations' ?

You think in terms of specs. We think in an opposite way. You will never understand apple and will always believe it's a bunch of crook salesmen with a lot of marketing. Why would I waste my time deconverting your beliefs, when it's clear you won't budge?

It's not about specs. It's about implementation. Xerox invented the mouse? Great. What did they do with it? Sold it blissfully to a naive company called "apple", who just reinvented the personal computer with it. Did they invent "multitouch"? No. They just perfected it and created the most successful smartphone ever. Did they invent AI? No. But where is Siri's competition? Did they invent handheld game consoles? No. And yet, which is exactly the ipod touch competition? Did they invent a "market of apps"? No. Yet their implementation of the app market shattered the broken "carrier -> user" link and created the most wealthy app market of any handheld device. Did they invent the tablet? No. They just did the first one that actually worked like people wanted it to, with the correct price point.

Do you think all of the above are easy things to do? Why didn't the rest of the industry did the same then?

Ok it's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2011, 05:40:22 am
Ok it's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

NO U ;) (so easy to make these remarks innit?)
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 13, 2011, 07:24:53 am
You think in terms of specs. We think in an opposite way. You will never understand apple and will always believe it's a bunch of crook salesmen with a lot of marketing.
ok, I get it, you have only said that 50,000 ****ing times in this thread. I was expecting a response in terms of usability, or cohesion, but rather you seem to have helped make my case for me.

It's not about specs. It's about implementation. Xerox invented the mouse? Great. What did they do with it? Sold it blissfully to a naive company called "apple", who just reinvented the personal computer with it.
marketing.

IDid they invent "multitouch"? No. They just perfected it and created the most successful smartphone ever.
first android is killing them in the market. second that is all about advertising and marketing.

Did they invent AI? No. But where is Siri's competition?
I will admit I don't know about this, it is a brand new feature of a brand new phone I have not seen in the wild yet

Did they invent handheld game consoles? No. And yet, which is exactly the ipod touch competition?
ummm... WTF are you talking about? they are not even a competitor to Nintendo or Sony in this market, the iPod is not a gameing platform, it is a music player that can play games.


Did they invent a "market of apps"? No. Yet their implementation of the app market shattered the broken "carrier -> user" link and created the most wealthy app market of any handheld device.
yes, when it comes to ways of separating people from their money I have said they are quite good at that.

Did they invent the tablet? No. They just did the first one that actually worked like people wanted it to, with the correct price point.
'correct price point" :lol: yeah, right
ok but seriously, just like everything else on this list, you just assert that they did 'it' right, but in every example you have given you have failed to explain what 'it' was about these products that was actually innovative, you are just asserting them as best without backing it up. and don't come back with that stupid 'it's not a specs thing, you wouldn't understand' _bull****_. I am asking you to tell me clearly what they have done not what they have not done. I challenge you to provide me with anything that does not boil down to marketing. give me comparisons with other products in the field and tell me how they did it and how apple does it and why apple's way was superior. and before you attempt to use Argumentum ad Populum you would at least make sure that apple is in fact in a dominating position in the respective market, about the only market apple is dominating right now is the tablet market.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2011, 08:29:10 am
Umm, the iPod Touch is not marketed solely as a handheld gaming device.  People don't buy iPod Touch's to game, they buy them as multifunction devices that are capable of gaming.

Regardless, luis, your point is somewhat negated by the fact that you sound like a rabid fanboy.

Since when is any point "negated" by someone's feelings even if that idiocy had any hint of truth in it?

No, I'm not a fanboy. The only idevice that I own is a 3 year old ipod nano.

But thanks for that idiotic prejudice. Seems that if anyone defends the rational side and tries to refute the silly idea that apple has never innovated is immediately transformed into a "rabid fanboy". This kind of rethoric does you no good.


Quote
I don't think anyone disputes that Apple has had a particular flair for marketing devices that are in no way unique or special to the masses; most people just dispute how "superior" they are.  What Apple HAS very successfully done is marketed their devices to the lowest common denominator, making ridiculous sums of money and pissing off anyone who wants to use their devices their way instead of Apple's way.  That's why you find a lot of technically-savvy people who detest Apple, while people who are more concerned with basic usage and not advanced features or customization are often their biggest fans.  There are exceptions to the rule, of course.

I always fail to see how this apple focus on simplicity and "just works" (the apple way) type of thing could possibly annoy anyone. If you don't like that kind of thing, don't buy it. Why are linux fans so hateful of the masses? I don't get it.

Quote
Some examples:
-Apple didn't invent the portable MP3 player.  They didn't even perfect it (there are a lot of more versatile players, with more features, and larger capacity than the iPod series.  I have a Creative Zen Micro which still works, because the battery is replaceable, played FM radio as well, had more storage capacity than comparable iPods, and was $200 cheaper at the time).  They did successfully market MP3 players to the widest audience available, and made a fortune in the process.

ipods were sold at reasonable prices, and increasingly so. If you were able to buy cheaper devices from different brands, this just means someone was underselling their own devices due to lack of market share.

Quote
-Apple didn't invent, or perfect, the smartphone.  In point of fact, early 1st-gen iPhones were junk

This is just silly. The iPhone was revolutionary, and many competitors (like RIM for instance) were even in denial about its feasibility (see here (http://www.examiner.com/technology-in-national/former-rim-employee-writes-of-company-s-disbelief-denial-over-iphone). Moreover, the iPhone was always a "work in progress". As a first iteration, it was quite good and revolutionary in many ways. It did lack a lot of things that other phones had.

Quote
, and newer Android devices are capable of a lot more, with a lot better hardware in them, and are cheaper.

What exactly do u mean "a lot more"? I think this is bollocks. Moreover, current benchmarks place the iphone 4s comfortably at no 1 way north of the competition. By "cheaper", if you mean that there are second-rate phones that do not exactly compete directly with the iphone but with the idea of something "near" the quality of the iphone for cheaper prices, sure. The iphone is built to compete with the top tier, not the rest of the market (I myself am about to buy this weekend an android phone due to exactly that). However, if you compare the galaxy S prices, etc., you'll see that the prices are more or less about the same.

Quote
What the iPhone did do is successfully plant the idea of a phone that replaces your phone/camera/MP3 player bunch of devices into one as a "must-have" accessory, and did it with a simplistic user interface so it isn't daunting to use for non-technical people.  And again, they made a fortune in the process.  But there are still a lot better products out there (particularly the next-generation Android devices, which anyone who has come to want to do things their way and not put up with iTunes/Apple's way has or will be switching to).

The iphone 4s is quite competitive, and I've yet to see a honeycomb phone... It almost seems like the "you'll see the amazing thing we are going to deliver next year". This has been the mantra for what, 10 years already? It started with MS, and now it seems android is doing the same thing. I'm the fanboy one, but it seems I'm not the one buying up the vaporware.

There are many other things out there that I'm really fond of. I despise somewhat android, for it being just a KIRF of the iphone since its very beggining, for the hypocrisy of being "open", etc., but I'll probably buy one. I'm more impressed by the WebOS, which has a very intelligent architecture and a very smooth and beautiful interface. It was botched by the ****ing pricks of HP that sunk the company this last year - I hope they'll give it a more prominent future from now on. Even windows phone 7 is more interesting than android. At least, they took a lesson from apple and decided to make their own vision of what a phone should be. Android just smells like uninspired kirf.


Quote
-Tablets.  The sole reason the iPad took off is because of fanboyism and pricing.

Why keep the insults? It's just the cheapest way to piss off any interlocutor: "hey look what I say isn't being confirmed by the market coz people are stoopid". Couldn't it be the other way round? People are impressed and enjoying their apple products and thus have a lot of trust to what the ipad is. Moreover, they made it so that everybody already knew how to use one, since it was equal to the ipod touch and the iphone.

Quote
The fact of the matter is that Apple's tablets are massively inferior to tablet PCs that were on the market 6 years ago in terms of what they're capable of.

Name me one tablet before the ipad that could be on for more than 4 hours, let alone 10. Name me one that had the multitouch easyness of the ipad that is filled with apps that are thought to be used in that form factor?

You can't.

And why do you think people should want an oven in their hands to use software that was built towards keyboards and mouse? All the windows tablets before this were junk, failed to understand what a tablet should be. Apple showed the way. See what android tablets are now? See where windows is headed with W8? And how is this not innovating, leading the industry?

Quote
But, because Apple made the pricing look accessible (and a lot of people didn't know there were better alternative out there in terms of portable, interactive, multifunction devices) they sold a bunch.  Then they released the iPad2 with very little in the way of actual tangible improvement less than a year later and sold a bunch more, even to owners of the original iPad.

How is the huge improvement of speed (specially in graphics) "very little in the way of actual tangible improvements"? And why should it have more improvements, if the first product is already a winner? You lot think with a list of specs in your head. I have a laptop that is an hp filled with "specs" and ports and stuff that I never use.

Quote
I see the appeal of Apple to people who just want things to work - but I hate how they cater to people who just don't want to learn about technology, and in the process narrow the abilities and features of the products they release, which in turn affects the entire tech sector.

What? If the rest of the industry is unable to give you what you want, then that's apple's fault? That's just ridiculous.

Quote
Couple that with some extremely shady business practices (ridiculous patent lawsuits)

Shady? Well, I don't like patents. Hell, I don't like copyright! However, I fail to see the shadiness of this. Apple thinks that Samsung has abused its position of being a supplier of parts for the iphone to make industrial espionage and copycat its design. Therefore, they sued Samsung. The courts will decide the rest.

If we were talking about corporations suing normal people for millions of dollars, you'd get my attention. As it is, I'm really apathetic to your appeal.

Quote
, misleading advertising (Yeah, macs don't get viruses... HA!)

It's not they are unable to. It's not even that they do not exist. It's just that they don't get viruses. And it's true. 99% of the time, at least (which is 98% better than the competition if you don't use AVs, btw).

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, and restriction of the user experience to the "Apple experience," and I won't touch their products.

But that's the beauty of the market! You choose what you want. I personally am enjoying windows 7 - it hasn't pissed me off since I bought it, and many apps that I have are for pcs so I'm forced to use it (gee, the oppression these microsofties are putting myself in!). However, if I just want a device to see the internet, my mail, so on, I would see myself buying an air (which is a very impressive innovating machine in itself) or just an ipad. If you don't like the products for these or other reasons don't buy them. What's there to hate? I don't like Sony Vaios because they are fugly and stupid (full hd in 17 inch laptops? REALLY??!?), but I don't despise sony, nor do I write "buahahah sony fanboys kickk my ass", etc.

Because it's stupid.

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Some I'm kinda with bobb here - I really do hope that Apple's influence in the tech sector wanes.

It will eventually. It all hinges on the competition not doing stupid things, like botching Web OS, making confusing operating systems like Windows 8 (I smell a vista there), and just failing to see how the future is shaped, like Android which is unable to figure itself out (the closed source of honeycomb just cost them the fact that Amazon is instead using Froyo 2.2 in its tablet, which will stagnate the android OS more than a year with the obvious fragmentation that is about to occur and be mantained).

If however the competition is able to have visionaires with the ability to actually ship its products, then we will see progress. Just watch Amazon: they will compete with the ipad pretty well (yeah I know it's probably not to your taste....)
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2011, 08:42:12 am
first android is killing them in the market. second that is all about advertising and marketing.

Killing them? Where?

http://www.intomobile.com/2011/05/02/apple-has-50-profit-share-smartphone-makers-cant-hear-haters-behind-huge-wall-cash/

Oh and sure, it's all about people being stupid and dumb and not realising that your vision of what a phone should be is the actual perfect solution.

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I will admit I don't know about this, it is a brand new feature of a brand new phone I have not seen in the wild yet

I've seen reviews of it. It's a window to the future and it's almost scary. Here for some laughs:

http://thisismynext.com/2011/10/12/siri-weird-things-iphone-4s/

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ummm... WTF are you talking about? they are not even a competitor to Nintendo or Sony in this market, the iPod is not a gameing platform, it is a music player that can play games.

... and yet they are killing the sony and nintendo handheld consoles. Have you been under a rock lately? How is a handheld console whose games cost north of 25, 35 bucks able to compete with a device whose games cost 2, 5 bucks in the internet?

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yes, when it comes to ways of separating people from their money I have said they are quite good at that.

LOL. Tell that to the devs who are winning cash like crazy.

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'correct price point" :lol: yeah, right
ok but seriously, just like everything else on this list, you just assert that they did 'it' right, but in every example you have given you have failed to explain what 'it' was about these products that was actually innovative, you are just asserting them as best without backing it up. and don't come back with that stupid 'it's not a specs thing, you wouldn't understand' _bull****_. I am asking you to tell me clearly what they have done not what they have not done. I challenge you to provide me with anything that does not boil down to marketing. give me comparisons with other products in the field and tell me how they did it and how apple does it and why apple's way was superior. and before you attempt to use Argumentum ad Populum you would at least make sure that apple is in fact in a dominating position in the respective market, about the only market apple is dominating right now is the tablet market.

Apple is dominating the laptop market. Apple is dominating the mp3 market. Apple is dominating the PMP market. And yeah, Apple is dominating the tablet market. Take the tablet example. They invented a good multitouch tech, combined it with a good screen, inserted a huge battery pack and were able to not go feature creep and slice it enough to be under 500 bucks. Combine it with it using iOS instead of a full blown MacOS (like windows tablets which were crazy), and you do have innovation on your hands. People like you are unimpressed by this. You want the cake and eat it too.

Ok, you want something innovative? The building process of the macbook air (and now all macbooks). A huge box of aluminum which is carved by laser to fit the interior parts of the computer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJnd8KVhkdo
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Bobboau on October 13, 2011, 10:49:09 am
Killing them? Where?

http://www.intomobile.com/2011/05/02/apple-has-50-profit-share-smartphone-makers-cant-hear-haters-behind-huge-wall-cash/

in terms of how many people use the phone, market share, not profit share. yes Apple is making money, I never denied that. Apple is making more money than anyone else, but that's not because a lot of people use their phone it's because Apple charges more per unit. ios usage share on phones is somewhere around 20%, android is somewhere around 50%. android is free so there is no profit being made directly from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Mobile_devices

I've seen reviews of it. It's a window to the future and it's almost scary.
ok, so you haven't actually used it either

... and yet they are killing the sony and nintendo handheld consoles. Have you been under a rock lately? How is a handheld console whose games cost north of 25, 35 bucks able to compete with a device whose games cost 2, 5 bucks in the internet?

here is an article that supports you, note it is in terms of profit share not market share, but I think it shows the ball park roughly
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10470102-37.html
you call 20% share 'killing them', granted it is on the rise, but they are not dominating this market, Nintendo is.

LOL. Tell that to the devs who are winning cash like crazy.
is this intended as an argument against what I said? because it really doesn't go against it.

Apple is dominating the laptop market. Apple is dominating the mp3 market.
they have something like 10% market share, that is not dominating, and that is only in the US market, they aren't even on the radar world wide.

Apple is dominating the PMP market.
Project Management Professional?

They invented a good multitouch tech
no they didn't, it has been around since the 70s, you could argue they popularized it.

combined it with a good screen, inserted a huge battery pack
I will admit Apple has good build quality

were able to not go feature creep and slice it enough to be under 500 bucks. Combine it with it using iOS instead of a full blown MacOS (like windows tablets which were crazy), and you do have innovation on your hands.

People like you are unimpressed by this. You want the cake and eat it too.

yeah, people like me don't like being treated like children or paying more to get less.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: KyadCK on October 13, 2011, 10:57:58 am
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And why should it have more improvements, if the first product is already a winner? You lot think with a list of specs in your head. I have a laptop that is an hp filled with "specs" and ports and stuff that I never use.

Congratulations, you are an average user!  :yes:    You dont use everything -insert technology here- has to offer, so why should it improve? Yes, when I see a new model of something that comes out once a year, I expect to see some real advancements considering the rate technology grows at.

The iPhone 4s is a great example of a company getting lazy. They bumped the cpu, and expect to get payed another what, $200+? Android is already up to par, and has been for a while now, with the iPhone 4s and then adds 3D, dual screen, larger screens (how can anyone use that 3.5" anyway?), removeable SD cards (up to 32GB each) and removeable battery on top of that. And ofcource its available on any carrier and can play flash.

The iPhone is for people who want it to "just work" while android is a tweakers dream. Thats just the way it is.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: LHN91 on October 13, 2011, 11:11:52 am
^ In short, yes. I can understand apple's popularity in a world that seems increasingly polarized between people who know plenty about the hardware they use and people who simply don't care. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard, no word of a lie, from people almost invariably on macbooks, the words, "The internet does more than facebook?" or alternatively "Facebook needs the internet?"

At the price point of almost any apple product, there is another option with similar build quality and better specs. The reason Apple does so well is because they cater hand and foot to people who don't investigate these things.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be absolutist here. I know plenty of people with plenty of computer knowledge who use macs, due to simply liking the way Apple customized openBSD, or needing certain software, or whichever. I'm speaking to the general trend I see though. The fact that they know that OSX is based on openBSD and can run linux commands on it set them apart from most people as it is.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Grizzly on October 13, 2011, 11:20:35 am
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Apple is dominating the laptop market. Apple is dominating the mp3 market.

Apple has laptops?
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Scotty on October 13, 2011, 12:32:03 pm
You're joking, right?  You have to have heard of MacBooks.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: MP-Ryan on October 13, 2011, 12:34:37 pm
You're joking, right?  You have to have heard of MacBooks.

You mean the Apple portable computers that cost 4-6 times as much as a regular PC laptop and can do roughly the same or fewer things with technically-inferior hardware?

Yeah.  I've heard of them =)

EDIT:  To be a little less facetious, MacBooks are pretty slick machines but you really can get a lot more for a lot less money.  And the MacBook Air is just ****ing stupid.  $1000 for a machine that can actually do LESS than a $250 netbook?  Please.  But there's that marketing thing again.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: MP-Ryan on October 13, 2011, 12:50:55 pm
-snip-

I'm not doing the argue-every-sentence thing with you today, luis.  That said, I will correct a couple of your misconceptions below because they warrant special attention.  As to the rest:

Your entire argument boils down to:  Apple is revolutionary because their products do everything I think they need to and they sell a lot of them.  To which I have a two-word response:

Genius marketers.

Apple's hardware and software is not revolutionary in its specifications, its breadth of functionality, its price point, or its innovations.  But they're really good at selling it.

---

And no, Apple is most decidedly NOT dominating the laptop market.  If you'd care to look at total sales sometime, you'll find that PC manufacturers combined outsell Apple's portable computers by a pretty wide margin.  Apple has a very small fraction of the personal computing market - which, to harp back on one of your other misconceptions, is largely the reason for fewer malware infections:  MacOS is just as vulnerable to attack as Windows, there's just a lot less malware that actively targets it.  It also runs quite a bit less in terms of overall software (fewer points of infiltration to work with).  But I assure you, if you put Windows on an Apple machine without any sort of protection and don't utilize networking practices, it'll get infected just as quickly as any PC.  Macs don't get viruses as often as Window PCs because the MacOS user base is an irrelevant portion of the computing market.  Apple's market share is the only reason they can make that claim, which is dubious at best.

As for MP3 players, find a source that says Creative was underselling their competitors to the iPod.  It was cheaper because the iPod was priced higher, not because of any underselling.  While you're at it, do some research on early tablets.  Colleagues of mine were using Toshiba's tablet PCs in 2006 with pen-touch interfaces for note-taking quite successfully.  Oh, and since it was also a computer it could play video, surf the web, check email, and at the same time allow the student to write papers and look at Powerpoint presentations.  And it was priced similarly to other laptops at the time.

Again - all I see from your posts is justification about how Apple was brilliant because of things that essentially boil down to marketing.  Nowhere have you actually demonstrated that any of Apple's products were/are unique and revolutionary.  They weren't.  They took products and ideas already available, bundled them up aiming at the lowest common denominator of end-user, and applied their marketing machine.  Now they're using the ridiculous sums of cash they've collected from doing so to stifle the competition (Samsung, anyone?  Though the interesting thing there is that I suspect Apple needs Samsung more than Samsung needs Apple).  Nothing you've said paints them in any other light.

EDIT:  Also, I'm not saying that Apple's marketing genius isn't a significant accomplishment (it is, and I'm thankful for the proliferation of tech that has resulted from it), I'm just saying that it is marketing and not innovation that drives Apple's success.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Grizzly on October 13, 2011, 02:13:21 pm
You're joking, right?  You have to have heard of MacBooks.

A bit :P. I never saw them at University, even though in that enviroment laptops are quite common. Mabye I did not look hard enough and those huge apples on the back have become more inconspicious, but still...
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2011, 04:06:47 pm
Killing them? Where?

http://www.intomobile.com/2011/05/02/apple-has-50-profit-share-smartphone-makers-cant-hear-haters-behind-huge-wall-cash/

in terms of how many people use the phone, market share, not profit share. yes Apple is making money, I never denied that. Apple is making more money than anyone else, but that's not because a lot of people use their phone it's because Apple charges more per unit. ios usage share on phones is somewhere around 20%, android is somewhere around 50%. android is free so there is no profit being made directly from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Mobile_devices

Android is "free" except for the royalties some companies have to pay for microsoft... quite the irony. Apple charges more per unit because they only sell the top tier phone, not the 100, 200 bucks phones, which are the bulk of android phones (and the kind of which I'm about to buy anyway).

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ok, so you haven't actually used it either

Quit trolling me. I've seen it used. It's amazing. And I couldn't have had used it, since I live in Portugal.

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here is an article that supports you, note it is in terms of profit share not market share, but I think it shows the ball park roughly
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10470102-37.html
you call 20% share 'killing them', granted it is on the rise, but they are not dominating this market, Nintendo is.

2009 is history. This more recent article, for comparison, has a more recent data, although they blur it with android pollution:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-20054217-17.html

I do wonder to the comparison between android and iOS.

It's murder. Nintendo is surely less than 50% now.

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they have something like 10% market share, that is not dominating, and that is only in the US market, they aren't even on the radar world wide.

You're right. I was reminding of the 1000$+ pc market.

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Apple is dominating the PMP market.
Project Management Professional?

Portable Media Players.

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They invented a good multitouch tech
no they didn't, it has been around since the 70s, you could argue they popularized it.

Yes they did. I didn't say they invented multitouch. I said they invented a "Good multitouch tech". Arguably the best in town since its beggining.

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yeah, people like me don't like being treated like children or paying more to get less.

I don't like being conned into buying a i7 laptop only to see it burning hot in my lap and see its performance decreased. But hey I am an "adult" and should have seen it coming right? Apple is surely treating their custumers like babies by not giving them these shady options.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Luis Dias on October 13, 2011, 04:33:03 pm
-snip-

I'm not doing the argue-every-sentence thing with you today, luis.  That said, I will correct a couple of your misconceptions below because they warrant special attention.  As to the rest:

Your entire argument boils down to:  Apple is revolutionary because their products do everything I think they need to and they sell a lot of them.  To which I have a two-word response:

Genius marketers.

Apple's hardware and software is not revolutionary in its specifications, its breadth of functionality, its price point, or its innovations.  But they're really good at selling it.


I'd say actually the reverse (but agreeing with you). They start with the marketing: what kind of product do we want to sell and how will we sell it. They envision the marketing first, and only then they try to build the product. They skim it to its very core.

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And no, Apple is most decidedly NOT dominating the laptop market.  If you'd care to look at total sales sometime, you'll find that PC manufacturers combined outsell Apple's portable computers by a pretty wide margin.

you're right, I made a mistake.

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Apple has a very small fraction of the personal computing market - which, to harp back on one of your other misconceptions, is largely the reason for fewer malware infections:  MacOS is just as vulnerable to attack as Windows, there's just a lot less malware that actively targets it.

This is not a misconception on my part (where in my words do I say anything against what you are saying here?).

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It also runs quite a bit less in terms of overall software (fewer points of infiltration to work with).  But I assure you, if you put Windows on an Apple machine without any sort of protection and don't utilize networking practices, it'll get infected just as quickly as any PC.  Macs don't get viruses as often as Window PCs because the MacOS user base is an irrelevant portion of the computing market.  Apple's market share is the only reason they can make that claim, which is dubious at best.

Nor is it dubious (since it's been confirmed for decades now), nor does it matter the reason. What matters is that it is true. And of course, if you install windows, you won't be protected from its own problems.

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As for MP3 players, find a source that says Creative was underselling their competitors to the iPod.  It was cheaper because the iPod was priced higher, not because of any underselling.  While you're at it, do some research on early tablets.  Colleagues of mine were using Toshiba's tablet PCs in 2006 with pen-touch interfaces for note-taking quite successfully.

They were windows based tablets, with pens. Bleargh. With 2, perhaps 3 hours of battery.

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Oh, and since it was also a computer it could play video, surf the web, check email, and at the same time allow the student to write papers and look at Powerpoint presentations.  And it was priced similarly to other laptops at the time.

Did I ever say otherwise? You are arguing strawmans, mp.

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Again - all I see from your posts is justification about how Apple was brilliant because of things that essentially boil down to marketing.  Nowhere have you actually demonstrated that any of Apple's products were/are unique and revolutionary.  They weren't.  They took products and ideas already available, bundled them up aiming at the lowest common denominator of end-user, and applied their marketing machine.

With that criteria in mind, no single product is revolutionary. Take what you will. I think that the iPhone is revolutionary because it spawned a new era of smartphones. It revolutionized the market with its unique vision of what a phone should be. The iPad? Same. Just look at this picture:
http://iphonefizz.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/376167502.jpg

Now look at ultraportables after the macbook air and decide for yourself where did they get counseling.

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Now they're using the ridiculous sums of cash they've collected from doing so to stifle the competition (Samsung, anyone?  Though the interesting thing there is that I suspect Apple needs Samsung more than Samsung needs Apple).  Nothing you've said paints them in any other light.

Samsung's best "client" is apple, ironically. Apple didn't like the abuse they got from the biggest KIRF company in the world and sued them. It's business.

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EDIT:  Also, I'm not saying that Apple's marketing genius isn't a significant accomplishment (it is, and I'm thankful for the proliferation of tech that has resulted from it), I'm just saying that it is marketing and not innovation that drives Apple's success.

Alright, I'll disagree. I think Apple is innovative not only in the vision of what their products will be, but also in their design (does any other company cares 10% of what apple does to make their computers even "likable"? Apple products are beautiful). And I agree with you that they know how to sell very well, and the important part of that is that they know how to "teach" their custumers on how to use their products, and what to expect from what kind of devices. I don't know what to expect from a samsung galaxy tab. They never showed me, and in the nearest shop, there's one of those turned off with some spec lists at the bottom.
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: Polpolion on October 13, 2011, 04:35:01 pm
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Android is "free" except for the royalties some companies have to pay for microsoft... quite the irony. Apple charges more per unit because they only sell the top tier phone, not the 100, 200 bucks phones, which are the bulk of android phones (and the kind of which I'm about to buy anyway).

IPhones are not overpriced because they're top tier phones? this is awful argument.

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Quit trolling me. I've seen it used. It's amazing. And I couldn't have had used it, since I live in Portugal.

another laughable argument. You've seen it being used. Well I borrowed my sisters for 30 seconds the other day and it was ****. check MATE!!

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2009 is history. This more recent article, for comparison, has a more recent data, although they blur it with android pollution:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-20054217-17.html

I do wonder to the comparison between android and iOS.

It's murder. Nintendo is surely less than 50% now.

oh lord. you're actually arguing that the itouch is a gaming device on a GAMING FORUM. Go away.

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Yes they did. I didn't say they invented multitouch. I said they invented a "Good multitouch tech". Arguably the best in town since its beggining.

And I invented a C++ program that displays 'Hello world' !

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I don't like being conned into buying a i7 laptop only to see it burning hot in my lap and see its performance decreased. But hey I am an "adult" and should have seen it coming right? Apple is surely treating their custumers like babies by not giving them these shady options.

buahahaha it's almost like you've forgotten the awful heat management problems apple laptops have, oh wait it seems like that BECAUSE YOU HAVE. There's why companies everywhere aren't making one piece laptop cases: it's a bad idea.

now I have a calc exam so I will laugh at your other post later
Title: Re: Steve Jobs dies
Post by: The E on October 13, 2011, 04:38:43 pm
This thread has outlived its usefulness. Steve Jobs is dead. His company isn't, and is doing quite well (although how it will fare without Jobs at the helm will be interesting to see).

You people bashing Apple, or bashing people who bash Apple, are really remarkably off-topic.