Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: FlamingCobra on October 09, 2011, 12:07:18 pm
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One of the biggest things that is ruining the US economy is outsourcing. However, I don't think there is anything we can do to bring manufacturing jobs back.
Politicians even PUSH for a service economy. That's crazy!
A country cannot prosper unless it makes goods to export to other nations. Exchanging services within our own country just won't cut it! You don't GAIN anything that way.
Just about the only thing the US makes now is food. Most of that goes to fatass Americans, a large percentage of which have.................................................
DIABEETUS
Pretty much the rest of the food we produce is given away to starving Africans. And no, I do not feel sorry for them. It's not my fault if they try to farm the desert and consequently magnify the damage caused by erosion. It's not my fault if they are constantly at war with each other. And it's not my fault if they don't industrialize to produce goods and services so they can generate some cashflow with which they can purchase food.
Anyway, I seem to have gotten off on a tangent. BACK ON TOPIC.
Another problem is that Americans -- yes, I do realize that "American" is not a synonym for "a citizen of the United States" because the United States is not the only country in North America, but I'm going to use it anyway -- don't want manufacturing jobs anymore. In fact, a lot of Americans don't want jobs at all! They'd rather draw unemployment for as long as possible.
I believe this has something to do with our educational system. It must be flawed. Our educational system probably encourages students to go to college a little too much.
I remember last year when the German exchange students arrived they told us that in Germany, students are separated into the ones that will and the ones that will not go to a college/university by the end of......................... what...................... elementary school? Or was it middle school?
.............................................................. ..............
I think it was elementary school.
....................... Anyway, as bad as that sounds, it's probably a better system overall. It makes things easier on everybody. Some people are naturally better at some things than others. And some people are naturally smarter than other people. I know that's harsh, but that's reality.
It's kind of like year-round school. I used to think that year-round school would be the most horrible injustice society could ever put on children but now I believe it would be better than the system we have now; Go 180 days and then get a long summer break.
I'd rather have shorter but more frequent breaks.
ANYWAY, back on topic.
The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?
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Pretty much the rest of the food we produce is given away to starving Africans. And no, I do not feel sorry for them. It's not my fault if they try to farm the desert and consequently magnify the damage caused by erosion. It's not my fault if they are constantly at war with each other. And it's not my fault if they don't industrialize to produce goods and services so they can generate some cashflow with which they can purchase food.
This may be the dumbest thing I've ever seen anyone say in here.
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Despite the generally ignorant prompt for this topic, it's still a valid topic.
...In the sense that if we observe the current free enterprise and governmental economic policies of the United States, a problem is not difficult to detect. As a disclaimer, allow me to state that I am no expert, and the following observations are nominally quite general in nature.
As the Cobra of Flaming posts suggests, loss of a manufacturing base is a critical flaw in the industrial economic construct of the US. This will continue to deteriorate as governmental policies do not effectively levy terrifs and implement regulations on US-based industries that manage operations outside (as well as inside) of the country. To harp on old news, General Electric not paying their taxes is a good example of the shortcomings in the current system.
Hence, a better topic - Simple problem: bad policies leading to bad industrial process (with respect to the US). Difficult solution: How to fix simple problem...
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Do you have anything at all to back up your premise that "The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy?"
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Do you have anything at all to back up your premise that "The United States Cannot Survive on a Service Economy?"
That's hardly the biggest problem with the post.
Despite the generally ignorant prompt for this topic, it's still a valid topic.
...In the sense that if we observe the current free enterprise and governmental economic policies of the United States, a problem is not difficult to detect. As a disclaimer, allow me to state that I am no expert, and the following observations are nominally quite general in nature.
As the Cobra of Flaming posts suggests, loss of a manufacturing base is a critical flaw in the industrial economic construct of the US. This will continue to deteriorate as governmental policies do not effectively levy terrifs and implement regulations on US-based industries that manage operations outside (as well as inside) of the country. To harp on old news, General Electric not paying their taxes is a good example of the shortcomings in the current system.
Hence, a better topic - Simple problem: bad policies leading to bad industrial process (with respect to the US). Difficult solution: How to fix simple problem...
I read somewhere that tariffs and "isolationist economics" can be really damaging, does anyone know how, exactly? I'm quite curious.
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Well add to the bad policies, we have companies that basically buy their way into the political process and push for whatever.
This is a very large reason we are so stunted in the broadband deployment area compared to many other developed countries, and
have the highest rates.
The other problem is we have a giant problem in the Social Security and Medicare amounts going out, the majority of our expenditure is
just that. We're propping up 1 to 2 generations of people in a constantly more expensive economy.
The jobs problem I have spoken about before, it's a mix of several issues.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=78087.msg1544518#msg1544518
Now in addition to the elderly, disabled, we're giving out tons of incentives for other people to live here and send their freely given aid home.
From what I hear, most of the major college students are coming in from India or China, getting their education, then taking it back home saying
there's more opportunity there.
Couple this with a patent, trademark, DMCA, and a bunch of other laws that have been poorly written for the digital age, and we're stifling ourselves.
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A tarrif will be a damaging entity to a company because it requires them to pay for an action they undertake. And it will always be damaging at some level, becuase it will cut into their profits. Less profit means less R&D, and reduces the potential for technical achievement in a product. It reduces the number of employees they can hire and still be profitable, etc.
A company might move outside the bounds of the US for a matter of reasons: Environmental concerns with respect to manufacturing, employee wages, taxes, etc. Companies like to outsource employees beacuse the standard of living is higher in the US, and inflation means that the apparent cost of living will continue to rise. It's thus easy to understand why all your tech support people always seem to speak English as a second language.
However, this is exactly why tarrifs are needed: if a US-based company can't get that monetary advantage from conducting overseas operations anymore because they have a trade tax to deal with, they ought to consider moving back to their country of origin. THEN, you'll see the manufacturing and technician level jobs come back. This should also boost the service industry, which was noted in the initial post.
The downside is that a company never wants to cut into their profit margin, so they'll make YOU pay for the difference. You might then wonder how US companies can compete with overseas industry, with the price of their product being lower due to that nation's standard of living or reduced industrial standards of practice. Again, placing an import tarrif on foreign goods could close that gap in an ideal situation.
I'm not in favor of immensely powerful gvernment, but in this instance I feel it's a case of the government needing to regulate one of the things any government has ALWAYS needed to monitor and regulate, which is the economy. This involves bullying the major players in the economy (large corporations) into making sure the US is a viable industrial export center, and remains so.
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The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?
I apologize that this is not directly related to the above replies, but:
Build nuclear power plants. Lots and lots of them. Education should be directed towards that.
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One of the biggest things that is ruining the US economy is outsourcing. However, I don't think there is anything we can do to bring manufacturing jobs back.
Politicians even PUSH for a service economy. That's crazy!
Ok. I'll bite.
A country cannot prosper unless it makes goods to export to other nations. Exchanging services within our own country just won't cut it! You don't GAIN anything that way.
This is a pretty bold assertion. I'll respond to this when you provide reasonable evidence that service based economies cannot bring prosperity, or failing that perhaps a reasonable argument.
Just about the only thing the US makes now is food. Most of that goes to fatass Americans, a large percentage of which have.................................................
Most food (well, corn at least) produced here in the US is inedible for humans and is either used as feed for animals or turned into things that aren't food in and of itself. Though it is true that we do make a lot of delicious and edible food, that I agree.
DIABEETUS
Pretty much the rest of the food we produce is given away to starving Africans. And no, I do not feel sorry for them. It's not my fault if they try to farm the desert and consequently magnify the damage caused by erosion. It's not my fault if they are constantly at war with each other. And it's not my fault if they don't industrialize to produce goods and services so they can generate some cashflow with which they can purchase food.
Anyway, I seem to have gotten off on a tangent. BACK ON TOPIC.
You have no sympathy for people starving in Africa but you feel fine complaining about a recession in the US? Get the **** out. I've got nothing more to say here.
Another problem is that Americans -- yes, I do realize that "American" is not a synonym for "a citizen of the United States" because the United States is not the only country in North America, but I'm going to use it anyway -- don't want manufacturing jobs anymore. In fact, a lot of Americans don't want jobs at all! They'd rather draw unemployment for as long as possible.
I believe this has something to do with our educational system. It must be flawed. Our educational system probably encourages students to go to college a little too much.
I remember last year when the German exchange students arrived they told us that in Germany, students are separated into the ones that will and the ones that will not go to a college/university by the end of......................... what...................... elementary school? Or was it middle school?
.............................................................. ..............
I think it was elementary school.
....................... Anyway, as bad as that sounds, it's probably a better system overall. It makes things easier on everybody. Some people are naturally better at some things than others. And some people are naturally smarter than other people. I know that's harsh, but that's reality.
It's kind of like year-round school. I used to think that year-round school would be the most horrible injustice society could ever put on children but now I believe it would be better than the system we have now; Go 180 days and then get a long summer break.
I'd rather have shorter but more frequent breaks.
ANYWAY, back on topic.
The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?
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You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right? :P
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getting us companies to pay taxes is one thing. it is a problem. the government really needs to lower them. i mean even if we halved what they are, other countries would still have better tax rates. so while cutting them in half also make it harder for them to evade, and you will likely get more money out of them than you do now. but thats just a tiny slice of the problem. we should really crack down on multinational corporations and close all the loopholes that let them cheat their taxes.
we do need to bring back manufacturing jobs. there is a lot of demand for made in america products right now. sometimes you pay more and sometimes you dont. but i find products made in america to be of much greater quality to products made in china for example. cheap low quality products from overseas have turned us into a throwaway society. having the factory overseas disconnects it from the customer base and there is no accountability for poor quality and its easier to cheat the consumer with impunity. theres a lot of reluctance to meet local standards, where here not meeting standards is corporate suicide.
we need to do our own dirty work. we need to stop outsourcing jobs that are within the typical american skill set. it might save money but it reduced local income and thus local spending. outsourcing has got to go. especially in the support industry, americans should receive support from americans, not foreigners who are in a different boat entirely.
jobs need to pay better wages. no disposable income means we dont buy stuff, we dont buy stuff then nobody here turns a profit. the reason people live off the government is because it pays better than minimum wage. an actual 40 hour a week minimum wage job should be a big step up from living off assistance programs, not a tiny one, and certainly not a step down.
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You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right? :P
Well, those will be some pretty interesting essays, given the level of ignorance generally exhibited by our high-temperature snake here...
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You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right? :P
its ok, when his teech googles his essay and founds he just copied our replies, he will get an f. lol
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getting us companies to pay taxes is one thing. it is a problem. the government really needs to lower them. i mean even if we halved what they are, other countries would still have better tax rates. so while cutting them in half also make it harder for them to evade, and you will likely get more money out of them than you do now. but thats just a tiny slice of the problem. we should really crack down on multinational corporations and close all the loopholes that let them cheat their taxes.
Bwaaaa???? How would lowering tax rates make it any harder to evade taxes?
P.S. The IRS is underfunded enough as it is
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Not harder, but less people would want to do it. I think that's what he meant.
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see we do 2 things, we crack down on companies using multinational status to cheat the irs, then we lower their tax rates. if both these things happen, we would get more money out of the businesses. really our buisness tax rates are insanely high, its no wonder they go to extremes (like posing as a multinational) to dodge the taxes. its like saying, ok were lowering the taxes, but you assholes better ****ing pay them. we could just crack down and keep the rates where they are, but that would break so many companies that they would no longer be a useful source of tax revenue.
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one half of that would get through congress and stick, can you guess which half?
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One of the biggest things that is ruining the US economy is outsourcing. However, I don't think there is anything we can do to bring manufacturing jobs back.
Politicians even PUSH for a service economy. That's crazy!
Ok. I'll bite.
A country cannot prosper unless it makes goods to export to other nations. Exchanging services within our own country just won't cut it! You don't GAIN anything that way.
This is a pretty bold assertion. I'll respond to this when you provide reasonable evidence that service based economies cannot bring prosperity, or failing that perhaps a reasonable argument.
A service-based economy logically benefits a society internally. When managed properly, a service provider should be in a state of economic equilibrium in the society in which it is based. Thus, workers are given a wage, and consumers are given a product, and the system sustains itself. What a service DOES NOT do (in most cases) is benefit a society externally. That is, the percentage of foreign currency which flows into the nation to boost revenues is assumably quite low for say, the medical field, in relation to heavy industry. And when you have an economy which imports more than it exports... Well, I think the problem in citing movement towards a service-based economy becomes worth considering.
Now, at some level, the service industry and heavy industry are linked. Even the heavy industrial sector relies on service-based elements to sell a product. The problem is that when heavy industry is outsourced, you not only slice a good margin of your workforce out of a job, but you also allow that company to divert its expenditures (and taxible revenues) outside of your internal economy. Now, the service industry suffers because they cannot sell a product to a consumer base that cannot afford those products, because they do not have a job!
Finally, if the service industry, in theory, supported itself, its employees, and its customers, consider the concepts above... The heavy manufacturing base reduces its presence in the nation at a high percentage, cutting down on internally traded goods, services, and raw materials (which are also goods), resulting in a net loss to the economic system. Furthermore, those goods are now imported, along with other imports coming into the nation. This also results in an outflow from the system. And then, because heavy industry is reduced, the gain from exports does not equal that of the loss from imports! If a simple model of this system was made, it might look like this:
[Summation of economic gain/loss] = (stable service economy) - (industrial outflow) - (imports) + (exports < (outflow + imports)) = [Economic loss]
Note again, that the service economy is an internal economic element, with no gains or losses (in our assumption). If our conomy was local only, it would be just fine. But in a global economy, is it even worth considering at such an important weight? If it's in a state of equilibrium, we might as well call it equal to zero. All that remains after that is a net loss. That system is doomed to fail.
Now, again, I'm no economist, and all my assumptions are from general things I've learned or heard of. If I'm wrong, or I could refine my view of things, please, do interject here and let us all learn something...
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one half of that would get through congress and stick, can you guess which half?
yes, the one that makes the least sense by itself.
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Just about the only thing the US makes now is food. Most of that goes to fatass Americans, a large percentage of which have.................................................
DIABEETUS
Screw off you ignorant retard.
Pretty much the rest of the food we produce is given away to starving Africans. And no, I do not feel sorry for them. It's not my fault if they try to farm the desert and consequently magnify the damage caused by erosion. It's not my fault if they are constantly at war with each other. And it's not my fault if they don't industrialize to produce goods and services so they can generate some cashflow with which they can purchase food.
Are you saying all this to feel less guilty about not giving money to the homeless? By the way, Asia has the largest number of starving kids. Douchebag.
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*munches popcorn*
I'll chime in if anyone misses something in the verbal factual thrashing that FlamingCobra is so deservedly getting. Seems pretty comprehensive so far.
Though I will say, the main reason the US is so economically ****ed is because the taxation and financial regulatory systems (i.e. regulation of banks and markets) have been routinely ass****ed for ideological purposes (mostly by the Republicans over the last 30 years). And the reason you can't fix that at the moment is because the Tea Party is busy face****ing every level of government at their whim.
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[offtopic]
I just thought the ad displayed while on this page was funny:
(http://i55.tinypic.com/1zq5vfn.jpg)
[/offtopic]
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Oh christ, where do we even start on this one?
We've allowed the large corporations to run roughshod over rules and regulations for too long. They ignore standards to save money, dodge taxes to save money, push through ridiculous legislation to save money (by using a portion of the money they save to fatten political donations and campaign contributions) like arguing that food service workers could be paid almost nothing and introducing the plague of tipping to guilt customers into making up the difference. They've ignored investing in our infrastructure and it's fallen into a disgusting state of decay. They shipped our jobs overseas so they can ignore quality control and pay lower wages, and now they're acting surprised that the middle class in the U.S. is disappearing rapidly and discontent among the people that have been getting screwed for years is reaching critical mass. Banks lent money with reckless abandon, hastened the collapse of the housing bubble, took record bailouts with open hands, and are now proceeding to profit from the smouldering ashes of the system by selling junk debt and ratcheting up inane fees for their hapless customers.
The next couple of years are going to be very interesting, to say the least.
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nothing a few nukes wont fix.
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nothing a few nukes wont fix.
You would say that.
Technically, it's true - as long as we put all the corrupt CEOs of most multinational, multi-billion dollar companies and most of our current idiot politicians on a boat and nuke it, Able- and Baker-shot style.
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what do i care if i take entire cities out with them, i mean i can live off the grid and eat things i shoot in the woods so im not dependent on any form of civilization whatsoever.
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We could use a little population control, but it's okay. Nature will take of it eventually, anyway. Two words: aerosolized Ebola.
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How do we solve the homeless problem?
Involuntary euthanization
(kudos to those who get the reference)
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How do we solve the homeless problem?
Involuntary euthanization
(kudos to those who get the reference)
nuke them
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I believe this has something to do with our educational system. It must be flawed. Our educational system probably encourages students to go to college a little too much.
I remember last year when the German exchange students arrived they told us that in Germany, students are separated into the ones that will and the ones that will not go to a college/university by the end of elementary school ?
Anyway, as bad as that sounds, it's probably a better system overall. It makes things easier on everybody. Some people are naturally better at some things than others. And some people are naturally smarter than other people. I know that's harsh, but that's reality.
The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?
Hm, your exchange student didn't tell you much about Germany... ;)
Yes, in Germany the future academics are separated from the future workers at the age of ten.
But in fact, we have also to much college students, and most of the college students are studying something that isn't related to manufacturing, hard science or engineering.
Almost all popular colleges are overcrowded... and particular popular studies like sociology, politics, germanistics and "anything about media" are very overcrowded.
And because of the many graduates in those studies most graduates don't get a well paid job - only a lot of lousy or even unpaid internships.
But that's no reason to not study those sciences, because after graduation you may not have a job, but you are still a academic - a part of the Educated German Elite. ;)
Studies like engineering, chemistry or mathematics are less popular, and a lot of students left after the first semesters because it's to complex for them.
So the German college isn't the only reason for the strong manufacturing sector in Germany.
An other strong factor are the workers, or to be more precise the system of professional education.
Most workers start at the age of 16 an apprenticeship in a company, which last two to three years.
Usually a apprentice spends 3 days in the company and has training on the job, and 2 days in a state founded school for the more theoretical aspects of his trade, like mechanics, mathematics, construction.
At the end of the apprenticeship there are exams by the state and by the trade group.
It's not uncommon for the best apprentices to attend later to college or get further professional education in their trade (at least two years full time school for a degree as state certificated technician or as master craftsman, but in most cases 4 years part time in the evening and the weekends ) and becoming manager of a department at the age of 25.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprentice#Germany
It's impossible to run a manufacturing plant only with academics, especially in sectors like chemistry or automated plants.
You need electricians, mechanics, hell even plumbers (nowadays even the plumber is half an electrician) to keep your manufacturing line running. You need them 24 hours, 7 days a week.
If you in charge of a 3 million dollar manufacturing line for PBCs and it stands still because a stupid 30 dollar valve is blocked you learn the value of high skilled worker.
At the moment I'm working in a company that sells chemistry world wide. And according to our salespeople the biggest problem in country's like China or Indonesia is the lack of skilled workers.
There is a hard competition for those guys, and it's not uncommon to get them from the competitor by offering more wage.
So it's not only the college education that's important for a strong manufacturing sector.
And IMHO the USA has still a strong manufacturing sector.
Agriculture is strong, also aircraft construction, military equipment, and if you want you can even count Hollywood and the rest of the media industry to the manufacturing sector.
What is gone is the cheap manufacturing sector for shoes, clothing or simple montage work in the electronic industry. But those sectors are also gone in Western Europe.
All those jobs went first to Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia and after the fall of the iron curtain to the Eastern European Country's, and later to China or Egypt and Morocco.
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What if we **** over Big Oil and ramp up R&D of renewable energy and then when fossil fuels and petroleum run out, we sell energy to other countries?
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What if we **** over Big Oil and ramp up R&D of renewable energy and then when fossil fuels and petroleum run out, we sell energy to other countries?
Oil in the US is small potatoes. Canada alone has over 700 billion barrels (that's with a "B") of untapped oil that we (1) know about and (2) can readily extract.
Don't expect renewables to give major dividends for several decades yet.
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SBSP?
Also, I had civics & economics last year, so, no, I am not using you guys to write an essay.
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I believe this has something to do with our educational system. It must be flawed. Our educational system probably encourages students to go to college a little too much.
I remember last year when the German exchange students arrived they told us that in Germany, students are separated into the ones that will and the ones that will not go to a college/university by the end of elementary school ?
Anyway, as bad as that sounds, it's probably a better system overall. It makes things easier on everybody. Some people are naturally better at some things than others. And some people are naturally smarter than other people. I know that's harsh, but that's reality.
The main question is, what can a country do to improve this horrible economic situation?
Hm, your exchange student didn't tell you much about Germany... ;)
Yes, in Germany the future academics are separated from the future workers at the age of ten.
But in fact, we have also to much college students, and most of the college students are studying something that isn't related to manufacturing, hard science or engineering.
Almost all popular colleges are overcrowded... and particular popular studies like sociology, politics, germanistics and "anything about media" are very overcrowded.
And because of the many graduates in those studies most graduates don't get a well paid job - only a lot of lousy or even unpaid internships.
But that's no reason to not study those sciences, because after graduation you may not have a job, but you are still a academic - a part of the Educated German Elite. ;)
Studies like engineering, chemistry or mathematics are less popular, and a lot of students left after the first semesters because it's to complex for them.
So the German college isn't the only reason for the strong manufacturing sector in Germany.
An other strong factor are the workers, or to be more precise the system of professional education.
Most workers start at the age of 16 an apprenticeship in a company, which last two to three years.
Usually a apprentice spends 3 days in the company and has training on the job, and 2 days in a state founded school for the more theoretical aspects of his trade, like mechanics, mathematics, construction.
At the end of the apprenticeship there are exams by the state and by the trade group.
It's not uncommon for the best apprentices to attend later to college or get further professional education in their trade (at least two years full time school for a degree as state certificated technician or as master craftsman, but in most cases 4 years part time in the evening and the weekends ) and becoming manager of a department at the age of 25.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprentice#Germany
It's impossible to run a manufacturing plant only with academics, especially in sectors like chemistry or automated plants.
You need electricians, mechanics, hell even plumbers (nowadays even the plumber is half an electrician) to keep your manufacturing line running. You need them 24 hours, 7 days a week.
If you in charge of a 3 million dollar manufacturing line for PBCs and it stands still because a stupid 30 dollar valve is blocked you learn the value of high skilled worker.
At the moment I'm working in a company that sells chemistry world wide. And according to our salespeople the biggest problem in country's like China or Indonesia is the lack of skilled workers.
There is a hard competition for those guys, and it's not uncommon to get them from the competitor by offering more wage.
So it's not only the college education that's important for a strong manufacturing sector.
And IMHO the USA has still a strong manufacturing sector.
Agriculture is strong, also aircraft construction, military equipment, and if you want you can even count Hollywood and the rest of the media industry to the manufacturing sector.
What is gone is the cheap manufacturing sector for shoes, clothing or simple montage work in the electronic industry. But those sectors are also gone in Western Europe.
All those jobs went first to Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia and after the fall of the iron curtain to the Eastern European Country's, and later to China or Egypt and Morocco.
usa really needs to bring back apprenticeships. primary education likes to keep you isolated from the real world. our education is so damn generic that dont learn what will be expected of them from the job market. secondary education is just as bad, and we also have these god damned diploma mills providing shoddy classes and giving degrees to people who shouldn't need them. then turn out students who are not half as qualified as those who get real degrees from an actual university and causes actual degrees to become somewhat devalued while at the same time flooding the job market with sub-par employees. apprenticeships are certainly a more sane way to deal with integrating graduates (of any level of education) into the work force instead of saying "here is your degree, now go get a job you damned dirty hippy!" we just kinda throw all the graduates into a pool of sharks and expect them to succeed.
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What if we **** over Big Oil and ramp up R&D of renewable energy and then when fossil fuels and petroleum run out, we sell energy to other countries?
Fossil fuels don't run out so fast. Yeah, their price rise, but that rising price makes it economic to use resources that haven't been mined out yet because of other, cheaper oilfields.
And renewable energy has one big benefit: It don't need a big power grid.
In fact they are ideal for developing countries without established power grid. In those countries the middle and upper class use diesel generators to produce power ( or avoid shortages of the public grid ) and it's possible to replace them with solar cells or windmills.
At the moment they are still to expensive, but the Chinese have been build up a lot of factories for solar cells, so the price will drop...
And that energy you want to sell from the US to other countries ?
Canada has due his rivers a lot of energy.
Mexico has not the money to build a strong power grid, and the wealthy Mexicans buy a cheap Japanese diesel generator or a cheap Chinese Solar Cell panel (or both).
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we are so screwed!
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I think that's... a really poor discussion prompt.
Again, the first thing to consider is the myriad bad policies and trends in the US which stifle growth. This includes policies which inhibit small businesses and private ventures. It's quite plain: such establishments can otherwise serve to either boost the local economies (both goods and services, and also employment) of the locales in which they are based, or they contribute to innovations which major establishments would not consider on their own volition. Many of the great pioneering aviation firms started in garages or tiny warehouses. Personal research and self-motivated studies have contributed to countless fields in sicence and industry - the US has made many such contributions.
If the government really wants the job market to increase, internal changes to the tax and policy system need to be made so that local economies and innovators can flourish - throwing money blindly about seldom actually works. Again, blanket statements ho!
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How do we solve the homeless problem?
Involuntary euthanization
(kudos to those who get the reference)
I hate the homeless...
...ness problem that plagues this city.
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You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right? :P
If I were his teacher I'd give him a D, maybe even an F since it has that astonishingly racist "**** the starving Africans" comment.
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You guys do realize that he's using you all for essay fodder, right? :P
If I were his teacher I'd give him a D, maybe even an F since it has that astonishingly racist "**** the starving Africans" comment.
Racism aside, you do have to admit that some of the places we send aid to seem to have absolutely zero interest in helping themselves. There are starving people and sick people and homeless people in the country you live in, don't you agree in improving your own situation first?
Selfishness always gets a negative stigma, but it's absolutely necessary for survival. My view certainly doesn't go as far as to say, "**** 'em," but I think we should help ourselves first. When we've fixed our own problems, we'll be in a better position to help others fix theirs. Randomly throwing money and other aid at the problems in poor countries isn't going to help anyone until the root of the problems is corrected, and the root of the problem is mostly corrupt dictators and their death squads stealing everything that's sent to the country they rule. But then again, meddling in the politics of other countries makes everyone hate us, so, it's really a no-win situation.
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Many of those places had any cultural or political capital that could help them systematically stripped out by Western colonialists, and most of the current African nations are descended from colonies whose borders were specifically drawn to make it impossible for the colonies to be effectively governed without the interference of the imperialists. The colonialists fomented ethnic strife and internal turmoil on purpose to make their job of exploiting Africa easier.
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Many of those places had any cultural or political capital that could help them systematically stripped out by Western colonialists, and most of the current African nations are descended from colonies whose borders were specifically drawn to make it impossible for the colonies to be effectively governed without the interference of the imperialists. The colonialists fomented ethnic strife and internal turmoil on purpose to make their job of exploiting Africa easier.
I don't disagree in the least. It's disgusting to see the kind of hole that overbearing imperialism dug for them. But at the same time, it's hard to draw the line of responsibility. At the end of the day, you could sling blame around for years and nothing good would ever come of it. Eventually, some people are going to have to say enough is enough, quit blaming things, and work to fix them. And the people over there that are suffering are going to have to help themselves. Sick of the dictators? Get rid of them. Plenty of middle eastern countries have gotten sick of being oppressed by brutality. Stop letting them steal your food, stop letting them steal your money, stop letting them sell your land's exploitation rights to international corporations. Ask for help doing all of that if you need to. When the dictators are gone and someone sane is in control, then that aid that the rest of the world sends can actually get to where it's supposed to go. I realize that it's incredibly easy for me to sit here and say this, staring at a computer screen instead of down the barrel of guns held by the death squads over there. But I think it's doing more harm than good for us to keep blindly sending whatever we can think of over there. It creates an equilibrium based on dependency and passivity.
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Many of those places had any cultural or political capital that could help them systematically stripped out by Western colonialists, and most of the current African nations are descended from colonies whose borders were specifically drawn to make it impossible for the colonies to be effectively governed without the interference of the imperialists. The colonialists fomented ethnic strife and internal turmoil on purpose to make their job of exploiting Africa easier.
I don't disagree in the least. It's disgusting to see the kind of hole that overbearing imperialism dug for them. But at the same time, it's hard to draw the line of responsibility. At the end of the day, you could sling blame around for years and nothing good would ever come of it. Eventually, some people are going to have to say enough is enough, quit blaming things, and work to fix them. And the people over there that are suffering are going to have to help themselves. Sick of the dictators? Get rid of them. Plenty of middle eastern countries have gotten sick of being oppressed by brutality. Stop letting them steal your food, stop letting them steal your money, stop letting them sell your land's exploitation rights to international corporations. Ask for help doing all of that if you need to. When the dictators are gone and someone sane is in control, then that aid that the rest of the world sends can actually get to where it's supposed to go. I realize that it's incredibly easy for me to sit here and say this, staring at a computer screen instead of down the barrel of guns held by the death squads over there. But I think it's doing more harm than good for us to keep blindly sending whatever we can think of over there. It creates an equilibrium based on dependency and passivity.
I want you to replace every instance of references to them and others in your post with references to citizens of the United States, and then let me know how all of that "just get up and do it and ask for help if you need to" is going there.
Seriously - massive systemic social problems are not solved simply by saying "stop." There are huge forces at play, just like there is a massive system that prevents the US from suddenly creating better economic conditions. That system encompasses the social, historical, political, and economic reality of a country.
I agree that aid needs to be directed and accounted for, but the problem is most decidedly not the fact that many of these nations receive too much aid funding.
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Many of those places had any cultural or political capital that could help them systematically stripped out by Western colonialists, and most of the current African nations are descended from colonies whose borders were specifically drawn to make it impossible for the colonies to be effectively governed without the interference of the imperialists. The colonialists fomented ethnic strife and internal turmoil on purpose to make their job of exploiting Africa easier.
I don't disagree in the least. It's disgusting to see the kind of hole that overbearing imperialism dug for them. But at the same time, it's hard to draw the line of responsibility. At the end of the day, you could sling blame around for years and nothing good would ever come of it. Eventually, some people are going to have to say enough is enough, quit blaming things, and work to fix them. And the people over there that are suffering are going to have to help themselves. Sick of the dictators? Get rid of them. Plenty of middle eastern countries have gotten sick of being oppressed by brutality. Stop letting them steal your food, stop letting them steal your money, stop letting them sell your land's exploitation rights to international corporations. Ask for help doing all of that if you need to. When the dictators are gone and someone sane is in control, then that aid that the rest of the world sends can actually get to where it's supposed to go. I realize that it's incredibly easy for me to sit here and say this, staring at a computer screen instead of down the barrel of guns held by the death squads over there. But I think it's doing more harm than good for us to keep blindly sending whatever we can think of over there. It creates an equilibrium based on dependency and passivity.
I want you to replace every instance of references to them and others in your post with references to citizens of the United States, and then let me know how all of that "just get up and do it and ask for help if you need to" is going there.
Seriously - massive systemic social problems are not solved simply by saying "stop." There are huge forces at play, just like there is a massive system that prevents the US from suddenly creating better economic conditions. That system encompasses the social, historical, political, and economic reality of a country.
I agree that aid needs to be directed and accounted for, but the problem is most decidedly not the fact that many of these nations receive too much aid funding.
I already admitted that I'm well-aware the problem is much more complex - but right now, if most of what we send is wasted, what should we do? Keep wasting it? We have three basic options: either cut aid, in which case everyone will cry, "Heartless," or we start interfering with global politics again by backing resistance movements or using military force. Bearing in mind that that's the kind of attitude that started all the problems in the first place. Or, we just stick our fingers in our ears and keep wasting our efforts and our money when we have essentially none to spare. There are no right choices. But I think we're doing more harm than good by maintaining the status quo.
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Do you even have any definitive evidence that we're "wasting" most of what we send over there?
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Do you even have any definitive evidence that we're "wasting" most of what we send over there?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/world/africa/16briefs-Somalia.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17095866
I know NPR is crap, but the experts they quoted have some credibility, especially Ayittey. And those two are just from a 2-minute Google search.
The dictators wind up with the food, the aid supplies, and they sell them, get rich, and buy more toys for their military puppets. We need to cut these people off at the knees, let the mobs tear them apart once their protection can't be bought, and THEN our aid can actually do some good.
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yea i think a non-interference policy would do them so good but it has to be backed by the world, not just a few of the top countries. pumping resources into these places just adds fuel to the fire. if everyone just cuts them off then the warlords will be starved of funds and will not be able to buy weapons and maintain equipment meant to brutalize their populace. this would better open the door to civilian revolt. of course they will always have a supply of weapons thanks to illegal smuggling so there is really no way to blockade these nations to cut off the import of resources.
you know we could just nuke them.
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Anti-personnel nuke? Hmm... so, anyone wanna come up with the thermal detonator (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thermal_detonator)? (http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/thermal_detonator.jpg)