Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: bigchunk1 on October 21, 2011, 01:10:33 am
-
Ok, so last weekend I had this sudden and uncontrolable urge to model that one alien fighter from Independence Day since I was unable to find any such models available for download. You may be familiar with it, but for those who are not here is a video freaturing it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72OquYrUx1o) Also you can do a google image search for id4 attacker.
A few days later and I realise I am in way over my head, and don't really know how to continue. Here are some screenshots of the attempt:
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/ID4front.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/ID4perspective.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/ID4top.gif)
In a frustrating way it looks off. Any advice for what to be looking at, or what to do next?
-
Try 'set smooth', and add an edgesplit modifier. Also, you have some symmetry seams - enable 'do clipping' in the mirror modifier and move the vertices towards the x-axis until they stick to the centreline.
Then, could you render a side view? It'll make for a good comparison with 1:26 in that video.
-
Whatever modelling method you've used which causes it to look like crumbled tinfoil... don't. I bet smoothing won't do enough to fix it, either.
Not much more to say since you didn't even mention which app you're using.
-
It's Blender, you can tell by the blue render-background (that's Blender default). And yeah, like zookeeper said, you may want to look into topology some... it also appears to have more polies than it actually needs, especially around the edges of the wings.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72OquYrUx1o&feature=player_detailpage#t=86s
Especially since the ship you're trying to model is actually a semi-spherical shape rather than the shape you've ended up with buddy ;o
-
You have the massing right. What modeling technique did you use? I think a ship built with lofted curves would give you a smoother result. If you want to work with what you have, you might want to export your model as a OBJ file and import it into the freeware program Sculptris (http://www.pixologic.com/sculptris/) . There are tools for smoothing and polygon reduction. Not great for rectilinear ships, but for ships with curves it is an option. Just beware that if your polys are unjoined, Sculptris will push the polys apart.
-
now that's a nice idea!
I also recall someone having modelled the city destroyer, the attacker and the troop transport for bridge commander...
-
You all seem to assume I actually have a modeling technique. I don't consider myself an experienced modeler, and much of the terminology is foreign to me. The initial mesh was created from a hemisphere and shaped out into a more saucer like configuration the bottom was extruded and scaled. Much of that tinfoil construction has come from manipulating individual verticies and connecting erratic triangle faces. I find it very difficult to do things this way, especially since I need to keep track of which face is connected to what verticies. Axem recently introduced me to sculpting in Blender (yes Blender has a sculpt tool) so perhaps I can use that instead of what I have been doing. I'm still green to the whole thing though.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/ID4side.gif)
This is what I get after following FSF's advice.
-
Are you using reference images? You should be.
-
I think the problem you ran into were too many polygons, too fast.
If I were making this model, I'd make it very low poly, just to capture the shape, and then I'd smooth it. It's much easier to work with a shape that only has a few vertices, rather than a shape that has a lot. It's also very hard to make a good curve by individually moving each vertex. When you smooth it, just use smoothing groups (or edge splits?) and you'll keep the necessary hard edges.
If you would like, we could turn your ship into a learning tool. Make the ship as complete as you can, in under a hundred polys. The lower the better. Then post the result and we'll go from there.
-
I think the problem you ran into were too many polygons, too fast.
If I were making this model, I'd make it very low poly, just to capture the shape, and then I'd smooth it. It's much easier to work with a shape that only has a few vertices, rather than a shape that has a lot. It's also very hard to make a good curve by individually moving each vertex. When you smooth it, just use smoothing groups (or edge splits?) and you'll keep the necessary hard edges.
If you would like, we could turn your ship into a learning tool. Make the ship as complete as you can, in under a hundred polys. The lower the better. Then post the result and we'll go from there.
I like that idea. Do you think it would be easier to just start a new mesh?
-
Yes. I used to always restart my models, since I tended to get carried away cutting, or discover that there was a simpler way of doing something.
-
Redoing anything comes with a soft inner pain, but in this case I think it was the right thing to do. Things are now in proportion a lot more nicely.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/AttackerTop.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/AttackerSide.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/AttackerP.gif)
What now?
-
You should stick with quads in your model, at this point. That way the smoothing modifier will work well.
I don't know if this is what you're doing, but that top piece could be a separate sub-object. It could just intersect with the main fuselage, which is easier that manifold edging.
Here's an example. The image is not exactly right, but it hints at what's needed.
[attachment deleted by a basterd]
-
Ok sorry master, but I got a little distracted from the cause. That front just looked terrible to me, so I worked on it a bit.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/AttackerFront.gif)
Still thinking about the best way of going back to quadrilateral faces. I probably will end up acquiring more polies in the process but I am assuming this is bad. I was going to extrude some extra verts along the midsection and connect them spiderweb style. Also still questioning the wisdom of going back to squares, after the realization that 4 points don't always form a 2d plane, but I'll trust your judgement as you've been right so far.
The top section was a separate object but I joined it to the main body object.
@Aardwolf, yes I am using reference images that Axem provided me. (http://www.shipschematics.net/ships/attacker_schematic.gif) I have gone so far as printing them out and taping them to my monitor to align key vertices. I also browse other images to compare angles and get an overall sense of the shape. The nice thing about modeling the attacker is that there are plenty of nice images and physical models out there.
-
Well, the trick to keeping the quads is to make your cuts in a big loop, like so:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc433/bobbtmann/Various/Capture1.png)
Then you go to either the plan or elevation view, and pull the appropriate vertices into position:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc433/bobbtmann/Various/Capture2.png)
Keep making loops and and moving the vertices:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc433/bobbtmann/Various/Capture3.png)
Change the view:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc433/bobbtmann/Various/Capture4.png)
Repeat what you did for the other view. It gets a bit tricky here, because yanking the vertices at this stage will create some weird angles. Just go back and forth from this view to the perspective, just to make sure nothing wonky is happening.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc433/bobbtmann/Various/Capture5.png)
And before you know it you'll have a spaceship!
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc433/bobbtmann/Various/Capture10.png)
About the quads not being planar:
You're absolutely right about that. Quads usually have a bend in them somewhere. That's where triangulation comes in. You can edit the crease without actually making a triangle:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc433/bobbtmann/Various/Capture11.png)
-
Uhoh, I was thinking of how to convert the model I have to quads, unless that means I have another redo ahead of me. :banghead:
-
You can go from triangle to quad. You just have to find a rectangle in the triangles and delete one line, and then do that for every quad you want to make.
-
For Blender, editmode, select two adjacent triangles and press Alt-J to join them into a quadrangle. And modelling with quads and edgeloops, as bobbtman says, is definitely good modelling practice. It'll be a great help during editing (no messy geometry to fight), unwrapping (no weird distortions) and LOD-ing (for which you can simply remove edgeloops).
I'm not sure if Blender allows you to edit the 'crease' of a quad... then again, if you need to do that, it may be worth adding another edgeloop there.
-
That's a neat feature Blender has which I wish AC3D had, that is, flipping the triangle edge on a quad without actually forming the triangle (if I understand you correctly... or, are you using Max?). Otherwise, it might be necessary to add more edge loops so that your quads will be flat (or otherwise called planar). An ideal quad is flat...
-
Ok, I converted the model to quads and added a smoothing modifier. Kind of confusing since blender seems to render using triangles anyways.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/AttackerQuad.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/AttackerQuad2.gif)
What's the next thing to do?
-
I would make your smoothing groups before you add any modifiers. I think you'd do it using edge creases. Fixing up your smoothing groups can go a long way towards making your ship look good, and it doesn't take much time at all.
-
I would make your smoothing groups before you add any modifiers. I think you'd do it using edge creases. Fixing up your smoothing groups can go a long way towards making your ship look good, and it doesn't take much time at all.
For Blender, that means to 'Set smooth' your model, add an edgesplit modifier and in editmode, Ctrl-E -> Mark Sharp edges that you would like to be sharp. If you see that too many edges are sharp after adding the modifier, increase the 'Split angle' or just disable 'From edge angle' altogether in the modifier.
-
I don't know what the word 'smoothgroups' means, in fact the word is quite scary to me. Thanks for the translation FSF. It turned out to be much more understandable than I initially anticipated. I implemented the edgesplit modifier and I think it looks better. I also refined the front and the overall geometry.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/smquadfront.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/smquadtop.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/smquadside.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/smquadper.gif)
Are we ready for the next step or have I missed something?
-
It still doesn't look smoothed yo'.
I still see dem facets.
-
Facets? I don't know what that means!
I guess I don't get what I am supposed to be doing then.
-
(http://i.imgur.com/wcBkS.jpg)
thx fsf
-
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/smquadfront.gif)
OK. From what I remember from the movie, the ID4 raider doesn't have anhedral wings. The underside of the ship should be convex rather than concave. Unless of course, this is some different class.
-
Ok, so Zacam and Droid803 just set me straight on IRC. Apparently I was never using smoothing until now.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/smquadfront2.png)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/smquadtop2.png)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/smquadside2.png)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/smquadper2.png)
@TrivialPsychic
You're right. Actually the lowest points of the ship are the weapon mounts (which I have yet to model and add on) while the underbelly is mostly flat. Hard to get a sense of the thing with all those crafty curves.
-
Well, you could always say that this is a newer variant.
-
It's getting there, a marked improvement over your first model.
-
Where did my teacher go? :(
Ok, well it might be time to go renegade. Here's what I'm think is the next step:
Reshape the sides a little further up so that the bottom is not concave.
Add more detail to the top section, perhaps even that circular 'eyelike' piece along the side of the top?
Perhaps create an engine object to be added to the back part.
I'll probably end up doing these things in the next few days or so as time allows.
-
Aah watch out its got weapons!
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/attackereye1.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/attackereye2.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/attackereye3.gif)
I think the next thing is adding an engine object to the back.
-
That looks a lot better.
You could try adjusting the silhouette a bit to make it feel more high poly. I personally find that what really makes or breaks a model is the silhouette. For instance, I usually sacrifice polys on the finicky details glued onto the surface, and add a few more polys to, say, a cylindrical shape. That way at an angle you can see that the circular shape is indeed circular, and not an octagon or whatever.
-
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Id4atktop.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Id4atkside.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Id4atkper1.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Id4atkfront.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Id4atkper2.gif)
Should I start to think about UV mapping?
-
Sure. It looks like you're in a good place, ready to texture. I would, however, try detaching those vanes at the back and cleaning up the surrounding geometry. I might help with the smoothing issues, and it won't make UVing any more difficult. Might even be easier.
-
Looks nice! I think there are a few differences with the movie cockpit though...
-
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Td4textured5.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Td4textured4.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Td4textured3.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Td4textured2.gif)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/Td4textured1.gif)
I need help texturing. :lol:
-
Yeah uh, don't texture using ms paint.
-
I would never do such a thing! :ick: This is paint.net
-
Huh. That looks interesting. It might work better with areas of flat colour, maybe some kind of pattern to break up the flatness a bit. Have you tried using Gimp? That might be easier to use.
Brings me back to when I used to mod Starcraft. I'd have to make my sprites using ms paint, and it was tough. I didn't have a 3d program either. I used a toy corellian corvette and photographed it from different angles, and then painted each frame pixel by pixel. Very tedious.
-
I use gimp quite often for .pcx related conversion and editing, but I barely know my way around in it.
It seems like when people texture they use some fantastic photoshop generation functionality to create advanced looking images. I don't have much sophistication with 2d art beyond using the paintbrush tool and mouse. I am pretty frustrated with texturing since I hardly know anything about making 2d art and have little experience doing so. I'm quite tempted to just convert this model to FSO as is and call it a day, since I honestly don't think I can make a significantly better texture without some serious instruction.
-
You try this yet? A Simple Texturing Tutorial (Warning to dialup users!) Updated with more goodies (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=43189.0).
EDIT: And also looky here:
FreeSpace Modding Tutorials (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70249.0)
-
(http://www.shipschematics.net/ships/attacker_schematic.gif)
Given that most of the relief of the ship is straight and curved lines, I'd be tempted to trace the pattern with vector lines in a program like Inkscape (www.inkscape.org) and then convert it to a bitmap texture. If you have a good reference image *cough*, you could trace right over it.
-
Thanks for the tutorial links jr2. I believe I have read many of them before but it's nice to give them all a runthrough in an hour of need. Most of it gives very helpful information on the process of translating a UV map to a 2d image and how to format images into glowmaps, normal maps, etc. but there was little information on what I need the most, how to make good looking 2d artwork. Perhaps it is a skill that I need to branch out a little more to find informaiton for as the need is quite broad.
I installed inkscape and after many hours of watching tutorials and being confused I have decided to release the model as is. I may or may not start work on this again, but I have included the UV template for anyone who wants to try their hand at texturing for fun or otherwise. The ship is fully converted with its own tables and sound effects. It's just missing some LODs and debris, which again I may or may not add later.
Lastly, I want to thank my teachers bobbtmann and FreespaceFreak (here and earlier) for basically showing me everything I know about modeling texturing and conversion.
Download Here (http://www.mediafire.com/?l13a1400xa41d0h)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/BadRelease.gif)
-
So, you need information on how to create a good 2D image, or how to do so in a manner to fit around a 3D object, or both?
-
Look at the picture and tell me where you think the issue is. You have a decent model with an acceptable UV map and that hideous array of scribbles. I know how to UV map, I know how to draw over a template layer and orient my texture to look proper on the model. The only problem is that it is a bad texture and the artwork is low quality. When I'm making textures, basically I'm just a monkey with a crayon. The only tool used was the paintbrush and a bit of noise generation along with Gaussian blurring. I don't know how to generate textures or even tiles for that matter which look decent and I have not yet seen a tutorial which manages to explain how to produce advanced looking artwork. I am starting to believe that 2d art is more skill based rather than knowledge based and I have simply not yet acquired the skills.
I'm not in as much despair as it may seem from my posts. I gave this project a fair shot and the result exceeded my low expectations. I knew I was inexperienced with 2d artwork and to some extent actually knowing how to model when I started. Not being able to 'complete' it in the way I had initially envisioned comes with some light frustration but it's a lot better than that tangled mess in the first post.
-
Get yourself a sketchbook, and try drawing it on paper first. Once you get a good B&W sketch, make several copies of them experiment with pencil colors until it "looks about right," and then go to the computer from there.
Whenever I tried making a new model, I always had a hard time remebering what I originally envisioned when I first started (since I has a crappsty memzory). By sketching it out first, I could not only save my thoughts, but I could also take it to a nice, comfy chair. Plus, there are some effects with pencils that are far easier to do freehand than in paint. (Oh, and pencils are erasable)
-
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/chaucer44/WEBSITE%20LIBRARY%202010/id4kitty.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1269341975467)
Looking at the above image, you can see that the model gets most of its detail from lines and patterns cut at different depths, in addition, there are lines that are peaks. For the most realistic depiction then, this model needs a normal map texture. The straight lines and ellipses could be created using the path and/or selection tools in GIMP. You might be better off trying a model with a simple pattern to learn with and then come back to this one. The 3d model is pretty nice by the way.
-
That's some pretty good detailing on the cat too. :lol:
-
SketchUp can scan an image and convert it... IIRC, right? I forget. xP
-
AAAhhh, rhettro beat me to it. But, i will note that it does have a cockpit if you feel like modelling that too.
(http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/3223/002fy.jpg)
This was one cool toy to get for christmas. Too bad i don't have it anymore.