Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: mandobardanjusik on November 29, 2011, 09:10:39 am
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hello, I am in the process of making interceptor-class and defender-class arwings, and have made this thread so I can get some feedback on my models of each and the designs. my main references are the pixel ref in ship selection(in axem's words pixel art) and the ingame models, and the arwing mk 1 (SF) and mk2(SF64) blueprints to make them a bit more like the main arwing designs, though they do have their own unique features. so here are some current pics of the arwing interceptor, may have some of the defender later.(note: the wings are angled down, though 2 of the pics are prior to this change). if you would like the starfox wiki link or me to post a few of my interceptor refs, just ask. and I am open to design suggestions. these are planned to be in a mod.
also note, the arwing interceptor is a faster more agile variant of the arwing, with lighter shields, armor and armenant. also note, both craft are originaly from the unreleased Starfox 2.
[attachment deleted by a basterd]
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oh and another pic, and 2 of my refs
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Well SF2 wasn't officially released but it did get out and has an english patch if you need more references.
Seems you may know that already though.
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Good choice posting here instead of on Shadows of Lylat board. ;) I can't really comment other than that it looks like an Arwing.
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ya, I put it on here at the suggestion of axem actualy, and because this proably gets more traffic from a variety of people, thus more input. ok, because I am awaiting some feedback on the interceptor(also, I could use some comments on weapons placemnts types and amounts, we are somewhat free to chose on this because the ref game was never fully released, and I doubt, this the arwing, and the defender would all have the same weapondry, and laser locations were never specified) I think I will begin some work on the arwing defender. the defender like the interceptor has several design elements that are quite different than the main arwings, such as the interceptor having the split front. now the defender on the other hand, has a rather fat body, wiht the cockpit actualy part of a structure jutting out the front, as shown in my refs, but still has the tradematk g-diffusers and wings. also, yes I have thetranslated rom, and an emulator on which to use it as ref. also, like the interceptor, I plan to use the ingame model for hte basic shape, and the pixel art for detailing, and the mainstream mk1 and 2 arwing blueprints to determine a good g-diffuser and stablizer looks, again making it somewhat of mixed look, though I may go off the 64 version for the winngs on this one due to its size. also, I may attempt to make the g-diffusers actualy a merge of the SF64 and assualt g-diffuser designs, but maybe not, depends on how it turns out
also, I think I know at least part of my weapons decision on the interceptor. As it was in SF2 the only ship to start with twin lasers, I figure if you have the upgrade technicly 'double' the amount of usable lasers I will give it four lasers, however, these will likely be a bit weaker than the normal laser, but maybe weapon firing settings may be possible, but thats not a question to ask me
[attachment deleted by a basterd]
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ok, I have my first WIP of the Arwing defender, and first before I get any comments, yes I know it looks rather different from most arwings, but it is an arwing. also, I see the differences between the arwing, defender, and interceptor, something like the difference between the F-18, F-14 Tomcat, and the AV-7 harrier(but much faster :D). as in, the arwing is a multi-purpose all-rounder, the defender is a bigger, and has a few slightly more unique features, along with being good on defense, or extremely heavy offensive (but dodging, not so much), and the interceptor is small, fast and agile, even though it has a smaller payload. also, both of these are still works in progress, and I am willing to take advice, and I would love comments. also, I personally at least think it is cool to see both the arwing interceptor and defender possibly in a game again, and with the graphics and poly-counts to make them look better than ever
oh and scaling is approximate, not exact
[attachment deleted by a basterd]
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Huh. Looks nice. How about smoothing the Defender's nose? Not too smooth, but just to make it not sharp. Round it a bit. As for everything else, it looks like the Arwing in your references. You can keep it as is or go further and add bits, or you can reimagine the whole thing and keep what you have as the basic design.
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I agree on the nose, but I do have it a bit rounded already, just need to tweak it a bit further. and I think I have a bit more tweaking on the body, and I plan to add more details, but I think I will stick with the current look, it may look a bit like a cross between the arwing and a F-14 tomcat :D, but, it is rather cool in its unigueness, and in that way, it feels more like an arwing, and it does liven up the appearance a bit (but I think for fun, I may make the lowest LOD look exactly like the origiinal model :lol:
and I would still like some comments on possible weapondry, so I can start adding some weapons details
[attachment deleted by a basterd]
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Well, I've never played Star Fox nor Star Fox 2. As far as weapons go, you can pretty much go with anything really as long as it doesn't look out of place. Use canonical weapons for references or use artistic liberties and make your own. Command has several different types of weapons that you can choose from as well, and let's not forget about all those different weapons the enemies use. I figured that the Defender should look more heavily armed (perhaps a visible or visibly larger larger bomb bank and more menacing laser cannons) while the Interceptor should appear less armed and potentially sleeker.
Whatever you end up doing, good luck on it. Your Arwings are pretty fine. :)
EDIT: By the way, do you plan on doing anything more with the models? The Interceptor looking the way it is with the middle appearing as a block bugs me. It's probably like that in the original, but it feels lacking.
EDIT2: Huh. Looks like the Interceptor is more heavily armed and shielded while the Defender has self-repair. Do what you want for the weapons still.
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JC4JC should know of this... good show!
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JC4JC should know of this... good show!
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=2+meters+to+feet#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=JC4JC+arwing&pbx=1&oq=JC4JC+arwing&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5986l6622l9l6790l7l5l0l0l0l0l142l458l3.2l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&fp=9d4dc0072d2e171f&biw=1440&bih=775
Who's JC4JC? :confused:
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Uh, sorry! I meant the shadows of lylat project at game warden. still very much active.
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I'll confess to trolling when I ask this, but by "active" do you mean to say that it is sill very much unintelligibly drooled over by furry fanbois?
...Or that the project is still hosted over on that lackluster board?
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true, but visibly the heads of the project are still periodically making updates, which is more than we can say for many other projects hosted there...
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Very much so. And to anyone on the SoL team, pardon my humor if it was in ill taste.
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I already have, it was axem who suggested I do this, but I am still awaiting a reply from dabrain
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It was much better that you did it here (although Modding Board would have made your models much more noticeable than Fan Art) rather than Game Warden.
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wait, there is a modeling board? I didnt know that, I can move there then
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"Modding" not "Modeling"
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ah, facepalm, is there a way for me to move it to that threada perhaps?
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Try sending an active Administrator or a Global Moderator a PM. If that doesn't work within a reasonable time frame (2-3 days), create a new thread. I'd highly recommend getting your thread over somehow.
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*pulls a somehow*
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thanks mongoose, now I hope I get some more feedback
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Hey Mando, welcome! Good to see you here.
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ya scourge, I have been on here for a while now, I actualy got involved wiht FOTG first(started working with em a bit a few weeks ago), though I have known of SOL for a lot longer. made this thread at axem's recomendation, and feel free to comment on hte arwing interceptor and defender. also want me to add the additional 2 ships I am developing to this? they are not arwings, but they are star fox
(and yes scourge, I am still waiting for a reply from dabrain)
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There's no reason not to.
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ok, then, everybody say hello to the Cat's paw and the classic conerian fighter from SF2, both are still WIPs, and I am messing with my rendering settings
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Origami fighter? :drevil:
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no, and I am doing some texturing now, the defender and interceptor textures are done, and I hope to have more when I am back home next week, I will post pics then, but I guess I can bait you with this for now
(note texturing is not a skill of mine, but they have come out decently)
[attachment deleted by a basterd]
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It's really hard to see with such a low light level. :(
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kinda of the point, I am baiting you guys on, getting you anticipating the real thing, which I am waiting to show
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I'm not sure if that would work. :p By the way, did you try sending DaBrain (or anyone else, for the matter) a PM?
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yep, it was axem idea to start this thread a while back, though I have not heard from him a bit. I have sent dabrain 3 messages(1 on here, 1 at the same time on GW, and 1 more recently on GW). and I sent axem a new pm the other day, however I am still waiting a response which should hopefully come in the next couple of days) also I may have textured cat's paw and conerian fighter as well
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ok, I have decided to give you guys a bit more so here is a formation pic, and a couple renders of the main part of the cat's paw texture, I mainly have some touching up and a bit more detailing left
I plan to do some work on the conerian fighter texture as well
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neat!
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ok I guess I will let you guys see these, here are the full pics of the textured interceptor and defender. also the conerian classic fighter is almost done, and I have begun work on the Wolfen mk2 from SF64 and I am now working on hte texture
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I'm liking it. Good job.
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well I am back in town and I have been fixing stuff on my comp and it is all back up and running now
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ok now that the thread is working again, and though I am using another thread on GW too, I am still going to throw some base stuff your way
so here is the Wolfen mk2 (sf64), and the conerian (SF2)
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Nice work. It's a shame you aren't receiving much attention from SoL or even the HLP community, but don't let that discourage you. Consider this: You're doing what most Star Fox fans only dream of doing.
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thanks, syphe, ok I have something to show you guys, a couple of improvements to the interceptor and defender, a new cockpit, and weapon details
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Nice. Details are a vast improvement.
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I would change the gap in the front of the interceptor... make it less boxy.
Suggest something like this...
Edit: replaced crummy text art with shooped image.
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I tried what you did, however it causes some major mesh issues, and I am not entirely sure that is the answer
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ok so say hello to the beginning of the wolfen prototype, note its still a WIP and it still lacks its upper g-diffuser wings, and my basic ideas with the changes and influencing my design is that it is based off a reverse engineered snes arwing, and enlarged.
ref (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/WolfenSF2.1.png)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Wolfen_prototypewip1.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Wolfen_prototypewip2.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Wolfen_prototypewip3.jpg)
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say hello to further work on the normal prototype, and wolf's personal prototype(yes its supposed to be blue, dont ask why)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/team_WOLFwip1.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/team_WOLFwip2.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/team_WOLFwip3.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/team_WOLFwip4.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/team_WOLFwip5.jpg)
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Neat stuff. Needs more detail, but I'm not really sure what specific detail it could use. That's one of the challenges of upgrading models from very low poly to modern standards. There's no science to art design for this stuff, so I can only give you cliche sayings such as "Follow your heart" and so forth. :p What SoL would be looking for it a bit more high quality than what you have right now, but you've got a good start so far.
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ok so say hello to the further developed wolfen prototype , added a lot more detailing, in fact cant think of much else, maybe a few things in the texture(which I am not even sure I will be doing), but I added lasers and aa couple of other things, like additional engine related stuff, and I added a transparent cockpit, howeve I will not be doing that stuff that goes in it, cause that requires team Wolf, minus Wolf, as I am terrible at organics, anyways there should already be models.
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/wolfenprototypedetail1.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/wolfenprototypedetail5.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/wolfenprototypedetail2.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/wolfenprototypedetail3.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/wolfenprototypedetail4.jpg)
oh and new upper wings
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ok so here some further development behind the idea of prototype wolfen.
When pigma betrayed the original team Fox, he took a mostly intact prototype arwing with him. Andross realized the need for an advanced fighter himself, so he rengineered the arwing, reinforcing the basic frame with large armor plates ont he top, moving all the life support and comm aystems into the original part of the frame, the original output for the enine was enlarged and made longer, and additional hull was attached to the bottom with the much larger engine generator, it also had a pair of weaker redesigned G-diffuser wings, and stavilizer wings, that allow it enhanced maneuverability over all later models, however it is slower than later(or maybe the other way around). it also has moved lasers. this was later used by most of team wolf prior to androsses invasion, until the production model was finished. it was also used after The Lylat Wars, after maintence on the damaged wolfen 2's proved too expensive, and the production version was going through major upgrades, and wolf always felt fond of his personal one and held onto it.
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ok, so I have now done further work on Wolf's prototype Wolfen, so I decided to make some group pics. now, I might be able to think up one or two more model related details, but I think the rest will be in the texture, and I do have to say at the least, this is a Major improvement over the original, and I posted a pic or 2 of them as well
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Star_Fox_2_Translated025.png) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Star_Fox_2_Translated026.png) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Star_Fox_2_Translated027.png) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/neonimprovedteamwolf.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/neonimprovedteamwolf2.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/neonimprovedteamwolf3.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/neonimprovedteamwolf4.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/neonimprovedteamwolf5.jpg)
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ok so I have something new for you guys. the idea came to me last week, and I finally got around to throwing it together tonight, though it is still a WIP. I have a new ship, and a new retcon(that is also going to elaborate on one of my earlier ones. So I would like the present the the Advanced 64 Arwing, or XAS-02 though I have a feeling it will get nicknamed Stealth arwing, because of its dark paint job(gray fuselage, Black G-diffusers), and that it also has a more powerful engine(altered front, engine intakes), it is also might be a test bed for jamming equipment(?) and it also does not have a traditional Smart bomb launcher, and is instead has a mine deployer(that could possibly rear fire smart bombs)
So this advanced prototype belongs to Fara Pheonix who is the head test pilot for Arspace dynamics, and also kept it as her own(it is the only one in exsistence, and technicly a variant rather than a main member of the Arwing series, liek the defender and interceptor, which I have deemed XB-01, and XI-01 respectively) [note it does still need wings, and further detailing and tweaking] who has Miyu and Fay, in Arwing Interceptors as wing mates, and they occasionly go on missions, and aid team Starfox.
so if you were wondering, the inspiration for this craft came as I was reading through starfox info, and discovered that in the old comics that Fara had been the test pilot for the army(minor update changes that to Arspace dynamics) and that she had a Black FX arwing, so I decided to update and retcon the idea, by changing it to the SF64 arwing, and making it an advanced prototype of it, that would also link the SF64 and Assualt ones somewhat. again this is still a WIP, and I made it with some reference to the pics I could find of SOL's 64 arwing, but it is suppossed to feel similar, yet different, well tell me what you think, I hope to have better pics of a further developed model soon
I am also have an ugly idea I may pursue, but thats another note
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I gotta say that I like what you did with the Wolfens. I realized that I never commented on that earlier.
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Why thanks Syphe, I still apperantly need to do some more tweaking on them, but I can think of much.... well except for actual textures, but if possibly I would prefer that being done by someone other than me. I cant wait to see what I can make out of this new one, and I do have a couple new ideas on the interceptor, though a bit of a blank on the defender, cept maybe the wings. any comments on my newest creation, or are you waiting till I finish the base, and do a couple of nice renders?
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Looks cool, mando. You're definitely improving your skills, just keep practicing.
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ok I am still alive, hoping for some feedback.
"ok new updates changes and improvements, I now have wings on the advanced arwing, and morre changes and improvements, I have added an intake/radiator piece to the wolfen prototype, I hope this helps, cant think of anything else on it. And of course, I have improved the interceptor greatly added more g-diffuser details, more fuselage details, and engine detailing and I have modified and improved the wings on all of the arwings
feedback is appreciated, however please be helpful and constructive, no 'this doesnt look good' if you think it doesnt look good, tell me what you think Ishould do with it'
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/detailing.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/stealth_arwing.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/interceptordetailing2.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/interceptordetailing.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/formation4.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/formation3.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/formation2.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/formation.jpg)
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excellent work mando!
speaking of which, did you recieve my PM?
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Will you make the big ship too?
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what big ship? and starlord I did, however I am sorry but I currently do not have the time for another commitment
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I believe there was some kind of mothership, which acted as carrier for the arwings.
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hmm the mothership, I did have an idea on how to upgrade and reimagine that, as the Ar-space Dynamics advanced carrier, it was the predecessor to both the conerian carrier, and the dreadnaught. it never intered full service, however when Fara Pheonix found the old prototype, it was decided to upgrade it to an advanced high-speed carrier, however its weapondry would be extremely light, due to its hull shape, and engine design. it was designated the M0T-H3R SH1P, and was of course nicknamed the 'Mother Ship'. it has a handful of defensive laser cannons, and does have a smartbomb missile launcher, while the weapondry is light, it is even faster than the great fox, and has heavy shields, but a light hull(flexible on these). and we will see what I can make of it tonight
original (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090617065736/starfox/images/b/bd/Mothership_from_SF2.jpg)
I will also see about making an arspace dynamics logo (originaly it was called arspace, now its technicly space dynamics, but I prefer ar-space)
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ok I have done a bit of tinkering and here is a view at the prototype of the AR-Space dynamics logo(note I do know I need a better pic of the arwing but that is something for the future)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Ar-space_dynamics_copy2.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Ar-space_dynamics_copy.jpg)
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well decided to mess around a tad bit more, so here are two updated versions, I took side renders of my arwings yesterday, so here we are
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Ar-space_dynamicsv2.jpg)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/Ar-space_dynamicsV3.jpg)
and scourge managed to track down the original arspace logo, and I will be using it in conjunction with mine, though we will be doing a bit of tinkering with it(mine will be like the STARFOX on the great fox, and the classic will act like the red winged fox on the great fox, and the arwings)
(http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/8641/arspacewhite.png)
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why hiya guys, yes I am still alive, despite the lack of feedback and still not hearing from dabrain, I am here to present the first WIP PICs of the M0T-H3R SH1P I threw together this morning. and little elaboration on my thoughts behind some of my decisions on the reimgining. First it is actualy the composite of 2 ships, the Foxhound-class dropship, and the Arspace advanced highspeed carrier. The composite design had first been proposed as an advanced vehicle for elite groups of soliders to literaly be deployed as self contained assualt units, however it had only a handful of weapondry, and all ot that was antifighter. several examples of the design was put into production, and used by the conerian army for several commando units, however it proved not to be a large seller so the rest were put into storage for the next decade, and plans for a new conerian dreadnaught, using the concept behind the mothership started development,when James mccloud came to arspace dynamics for a ship to carry and maintain the arwings, he considered the mother ship, but passed it over, as he wanted somethign with heavier weapondry in case of emergency. The design was later ressurected by fara Pheonix, who managed to not only improve the already superb performance, but also managed to alter the foxhound dropship to carry some heavier weapons, and with its large hangers(it can carry 12 arwings, or more conerian fighters), for her commando team.
note I may redo the top portion, and it all needs some more work
note there is not texture yet, colors are just to distingush features, also the 'ears' are attenaes, sort of like the assualt greatfox (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/M0tH3Rshipwip1.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/M0tH3Rshipwip4.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/M0tH3Rshipwip3.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/M0tH3Rshipwip2.jpg)
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This looks realy sweet.
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thanks, actualy slightly more modification to the story, it is the foxhound-class gunship, it had similar (technicly more) firepower than the dreadnaught, but diffused though a handful of weapons, and predates the dreadnaught class(great fox), however it lacked highspeed fardistance engines(can be fast in normal speeds though) and hangers, and this deficancy led to the mating to the carrier, for an advanced deployment ship, (and this led to the development of the dreadnauhgt), though in order to activate all weapons it has to be seperate from the carrier, and a handful of foxhounds are still deployed amoung the conerian forces, as it is effective against medium size ships, and occasionaly capital ships. (could be a flyable seperate craft). also when in the mothership configuration the foxhound acts as the main bridge unless deployed
Gunship: a medium size ship, that can carry a decent amount of troops, and bring a large amount of firepower to bear, usualy similar to a bomber, but larger and heavier
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well I finally caught axem again, and his adv ice on the mothership, is nuke it, take the casic idea of 2 hangers, and an overhead in the middle superstructure, so I am restarting and going from anothre direction
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Aw, that's a shame, sort of. But Axem knows what he's talking about definitely, and it's good that you caught it early instead of when it's almost done. :)
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well I am glad I managed to catch him on irc at least, hope I can catch him again. and I think I have an idea, though the tricky part is integrating it to look like a predecessor to the greatfox, so the upper section is very tricky to figure out
on hte upside he likes the defender cockpit
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ok since the day before yesterday, I have been beginning the restart, and I decided to start with the hangers. now with the hangers, I deceded upon 2 things, first off I was keeping what I already had as a basse, and second I would return to one of my earlier ideas on the craft, and make the majority of the ship modular, as in made up of other ships, so I think I have the hangers, and now without further adoo, here are the turtle-class industrial carriers(well until I figure out a better name). The turtle is the main transport carrier for arspace dynamics, capable of carrying 2 complete squadrons of conerian fighters and a # of auxilerly ships to bases across the lylat system belonging to their largest client the conerian army, along with some civilian clients as well. It has a large central hanger, and a large patchwork of some of the heaviest armor around, with a main multi segmented space drive, and 2 auxliery drives it is extremely fast in space, however becomes rather slugish in atmosphere due to its shape, and the nuetralization of its main drive. though originaly produced in single units, the dual ship configuration has become standard as it allows for a larger payload, augmented sensors and armenant, and a relatively smaller crew(this will make sense later, when you see it), the turtle only has a handful of weak spots, however considering its realitively light armenant, its mainly a threat to fighters, not capital ships. well enough of my yammering, here are the pics, tell me what you think(I admit I am not great at rendering though)
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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ok I have gotten far enough on the center where I am confident to show you what I have on hte center so far, though its still quite a WIP, and a couple of scaling pics with my arwings, and the main wolfen prototype
[attachment deleted by ninja]
[attachment deleted by a ninja]
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That's a pretty huge improvement in the overall shape.
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Impressive, I realy like it :)
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well its not done yet, but it is making progress. and thanks swash
hmm since I am not completly sure of where to go further with the mother ship at the moment, I think I may return some attention to my wolfen mk 2(SF64) model, now that I have a better view on how to improve it, I may redo the central fuselage(and honestly I had forgotten I had made it in the first place)
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ok I have something new to show you, it is actualy not a starfox ship, it is actualy a metroid ship from the nintendo power comics, however since its from the nintendo universe, I thought it might be a decent idea for a bonus multiplayership, it is a federation fighter, and thats about all the info about it other than one was once used by samus. its for something else, so if you dont want it, thats fine, but I thought it wasnt that bad a ship, and my model isnt bad for a WIP that took me a hour to make
ref: (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090906015545/metroid/images/3/38/Metroid_v01_ch005_132.png)
my model WIP pics: (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/federation_fighter_WIP3.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/federation_fighter_WIP4.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/federation_fighter_WIP1.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4853/federation_fighter_WIP2.jpg)
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well I am home for summer so I should have some more free time. I know that you guys werent super excited boutthe metroid craft, but I do plan to do something new soon, though of courseI cant actualy finish anything without the return of Dabrain. might toy with the assualt great fox next, perhaps make it even cooler