Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: -Norbert- on December 19, 2011, 01:18:07 pm
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I just let the end of AoA pass through my head again and let my mind wander a bit.
Could it be that the apperent failure of the 14th battlegroup, to stick to the plan was actually a good thing for the GTVA?
I mean their plan was to go in, jump into Earth and Mars orbit and then demand the surrender, right?
But the Renjian was there almost immediately, so they'd have to either ignore it's demands and jump as soon as they were ready or destroy it. Both would have asured that the UEF puts their ships in alert.
Let's assume they split into two groups, one destroyer and two/three corvettes each.
From the backstory we know that the Calder alone had several Frigates at the ready, but held them back, because of the speed with which the Renjian was dealt with, but if the enemy splits up, he would surely have bounced and fallen into the back of one of the groups. And a couple of Karunas isn't something a GTVA fleet wants to have at their backside, where they have the fewest weapons (especially anti-capships beams). With all the sensors the UEF had in place before the GTVA started blowing them up, a pinpoint jump right behind their backs is almost asured.
With the way the martian mindset was portraited, we can assume the Netrebas 2nd fleet had a similar amount of ships ready to deal with the second group.
So if the 14th hadn't gone to the parallel universe, they might have all been destroyed or captured by the UEF and thus given Sol the chance to put up a serious blockade at the node, which might have ended the war, before it really began.
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Note, UEF were clueless about true power of GTVA, at least at first. Their ships also were weaker, by the time of WiH UEF technology improved greatly.
If it wasn't for Renjian, UEF wouldn't even know how fast a GTVA ship can deal with a Karuna. Also, if a fleet of ships threatened to nuke Mars and Earth into oblivion, UEF would've most likely surrendered. How do you deal with a foe that can obliterate over 10 billion people if you don't agree to their terms?
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Plus, there was a backup force in Delta Serpentis, so the 14th at full power could've obliterate the Renijan, jump into position while the backup started to jump in.
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Even if the full-powered 14th would have failed, the Tevs just would have send
So if the 14th hadn't gone to the parallel universe, they might have all been destroyed or captured by the UEF and thus given Sol the chance to put up a serious blockade at the node, which might have ended the war, before it really began.
That's a point I don't understand. The full-powered 14th, not being weakened by shivans, tiredness and material shortage, would be able to deal a serious blow. There would be some defections, but Admiral Bei, for example, only changed his mind after visiting that alternate universe. On the other side, even the 14th wouldn't be strong enough to destroy the UEF in one strike. The tevs would have sent more ships anyway, therefore preventing the UEF from establishing a blockade.
Captain Leicester was foolish enough to attack a battlegroup full of really big ships. Did he REALLY thought that the GTVA didn't developed some serious weaponry over time?
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Even if the full-powered 14th would have failed, the Tevs just would have send
So if the 14th hadn't gone to the parallel universe, they might have all been destroyed or captured by the UEF and thus given Sol the chance to put up a serious blockade at the node, which might have ended the war, before it really began.
Hm... where did the first line come from? Not from my post....
That's a point I don't understand. The full-powered 14th, not being weakened by shivans, tiredness and material shortage, would be able to deal a serious blow. There would be some defections, but Admiral Bei, for example, only changed his mind after visiting that alternate universe. On the other side, even the 14th wouldn't be strong enough to destroy the UEF in one strike. The tevs would have sent more ships anyway, therefore preventing the UEF from establishing a blockade.
The 14th was able to take the Renjian down in a single salvo, because it was right in front of them (because the Shivans attacked from the side and behind, the forward firepower was pretty much fully intact). If they split in two and jump through the UEFs sensor net, the UEF can jump right into their backs and attack them before they have a chance to fire at the planets. As far as I know you can't jump right into firing range of the planet, due to the gravity involved.
Also the GTVA wasn't yet aware of the UEFs superiour strikecraft. Remember the articles about the horrendous losses among strikecraft for the GTVA, till they adapted their strategy (though they still lose plenty of them during the campaign).
With the 14th staying at the node, the UEF Elders had the leverage to keep the military at bay. If they were inbound on Earth and Mars, the military would have been forced to intervene immediately, even if they didn't want to.
Captain Leicester was foolish enough to attack a battlegroup full of really big ships. Did he REALLY thought that the GTVA didn't developed some serious weaponry over time?
Not really foolish, he just didn't have another choice.
Because he just jumped in, the jumpdrives were not ready, so he couldn't retreat. He go an ultimatum "Surrender or die". If he hadn't opened fire first, the GTVA would have gotting the first shot in. If battle is unavoidable I'd rather be the one to shoot first, especially if I have weapons that are good at taking out enemy turrets and thus have a chance of weakening the enemies opening salvo.
So it came down to surrender, letting them have the first shots, or shooting first. And from what I saw of the Jovians, they rather die than surrender.
On top of that he knew about the rest of Calders forces, that were ready to jump in at a moments notice.
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they might have all been destroyed or captured by the UEF
This statement is utterly ridiculous.
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It is utterly ridiculous that one destroyer, two corvettes and two cruisers might lose, when attacked by five Karunas from behind, which are supported by strikecraft vastly superiour to their own?
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And why would UEF know to attack these ships from behind? I don't think they'd take such precautions on their first attack, or even be able to jump so precisely. Also, their armament and fighters would be much weaker than at the time of WiH. Not to mention nobody would risk sending frigates when GTVA could launch a volley of missiles at key cities on Mars and Earth the second a subspace vortex started to open.
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It is utterly ridiculous that one destroyer, two corvettes and two cruisers might lose, when attacked by five Karunas from behind, which are supported by strikecraft vastly superiour to their own?
they would have to know to attack from range to make it work as the GTVA warships would easily manoeuvre to bring their beams in full view. Problem is the UEF don't know about that weakness at the point of the initial invasion.
OK the GTVA would loose a bucket load of fighters but the UEF will bleed capships which is a lot more costly from a moral standpoint
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And why would UEF know to attack these ships from behind?
Are you serious?
From the destruction of whatever ship they send as first reaction (like the Renjian) they'd know that the front is bristling with weapons. If you can't get them from the front, try the other side, especially when that other side houses such massive engines that there is almost no room to put turrets on.
I don't think they'd take such precautions on their first attack, or even be able to jump so precisely.
They did with the two Narayana that attacked the Atreus in Darkest Hour.
Also, their armament and fighters would be much weaker than at the time of WiH.
The Renjian was fully armed, the same way the ships in the campaign where, right when the first shot of the war was made.
Not to mention nobody would risk sending frigates when GTVA could launch a volley of missiles at key cities on Mars and Earth the second a subspace vortex started to open.
If we take the way ships act ingame as canon for what they can and can't do, they can't launch missiles from that far away. And even if they did, those torpedoes are so damn slow they can easily be shot down in time before they reach the atmosphere.
It is utterly ridiculous that one destroyer, two corvettes and two cruisers might lose, when attacked by five Karunas from behind, which are supported by strikecraft vastly superiour to their own?
they would have to know to attack from range to make it work as the GTVA warships would easily manoeuvre to bring their beams in full view.
Actually they don't. I just tried a little experiment in FRED with a Raynor, Bellerophon, Chimera and Hyperion against five Karunas from behind. The GTVA had three fighter and two bomber wings (all with 3 waves and 4 ships each), the UEF had one Uriel wing (4 fighters 1 wave.... actually only 3 combatants, since I was sitting back watching), one Uhlan, one Kentauroi wing (with 4 ships and 2 waves) and a wing of three Durga (with 2 waves).
The GTVA strike craft where armed with Balor, Prom S (Kayser for wing leader) and Maxim according to their role as primaries and Harpoon/Tornado for fighters, Tornato/Cyclops/Helios for Boanerges, Helios/Stiletto for Rhea (orderd to disarm Karunas) as secondaries.
UEF fighters were default equiped for the most part, except the Uriels, who'm I gave Javelin/Hellfire/Jackhammer (in anticipation of me ordering them around to fill what role needed filling... which I neglected in favour of watching). All ships had BP-Captain as AI profile and the difficulty was set to medium.
So even with the GTVA having top equipment on their fighters and having more fighters, the GTVA lost three out of three times. Twice two Karunas survived, once it was three survivors.
The battles were over before they degenerated into a circling match, but the mass drivers, gauss cannons and torpedoes made such short work of the frontal beams, that the GTVA only got off two salvoes of beamfire.
I know this doesn't proof that the UEF always wins such a fight, but it shows that it is at least a real possibility, or maybe even likely, even though they were well within beam range right from the start.
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And why would UEF know to attack these ships from behind?
Are you serious?
From the destruction of whatever ship they send as first reaction (like the Renjian) they'd know that the front is bristling with weapons. If you can't get them from the front, try the other side, especially when that other side houses such massive engines that there is almost no room to put turrets on.
Problem, they don't have any of that info. Re-read the material on BP's site, Calder had no idea what he was going into when he sent his fleet against the 14th shortly after the Renjian. They just lost contact with the ship and don't know how it was obliterated. And I don't expect the Tevs to give them the time to recon and analyse their ships before they move into bombardment position. At which point, they're the ones dictating the conditions.
Also, their armament and fighters would be much weaker than at the time of WiH.
The Renjian was fully armed, the same way the ships in the campaign where, right when the first shot of the war was made.
Yeah, right. You can totally draw conclusions about three whole fleets and their fighter complement from a single ship appearing in one mission for a few seconds.
Actually they don't. I just tried a little experiment in FRED with a Raynor, Bellerophon, Chimera and Hyperion against five Karunas from behind.
<snip>
So even with the GTVA having top equipment on their fighters and having more fighters, the GTVA lost three out of three times. Twice two Karunas survived, once it was three survivors.
The battles were over before they degenerated into a circling match, but the mass drivers, gauss cannons and torpedoes made such short work of the frontal beams, that the GTVA only got off two salvoes of beamfire.
I know this doesn't proof that the UEF always wins such a fight, but it shows that it is at least a real possibility, or maybe even likely, even though they were well within beam range right from the start.
Not surprising. the BP team mentioned several time that they had to guardian the Imperieuse's frontal BBlues in Delenda Est because 90% of the time, the Wargods would just kill the dishes and slowly pound the Titan to death instead of being obliterated as the mission script expected them to. UEF ships are very, very good at disarming tev capships, and that's without any help from the mission designer (actually quite the opposite).
Conclusion: don't give too much importance to the ingame stats, as they are just guidelines that the BP team itself isn't afraid to turn around when they see fit.
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The gauss cannons and massdrivers target turrets and the like while beams just fire away or am I mistaken?
What would happen if the Tevs would've sniping beams, which would take out subsystems and the like?
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Yeah, right. You can totally draw conclusions about three whole fleets and their fighter complement from a single ship appearing in one mission for a few seconds.
I didn't say all ships in all three fleets were fully armed. But I think that the emergency response teams of 2nd and 3rd fleet were.
The gauss cannons and massdrivers target turrets and the like while beams just fire away or am I mistaken?
What would happen if the Tevs would've sniping beams, which would take out subsystems and the like?
With beams you could very reliably one-shot the enemy turrets. The downside is that the beams need very long before they can fire again (compared to UEF weapons). Slasher and AAA beams seem to lack in terms of subsystem damage, judging from what I've seen ingame (no idea about their stats in the files).
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Actually, slashers are more like dedicated anti-subsystem beams, trading overall damage for being able to strip several subsystems at once.
If we take the way ships act ingame as canon for what they can and can't do, they can't launch missiles from that far away. And even if they did, those torpedoes are so damn slow they can easily be shot down in time before they reach the atmosphere.
GTVA can do orbital bombardment, you'll see it in R2. They also bombed Luna City, which is already in R1. And though GTVA torpedoes are slow, UEF wouldn't know it. They wouldn't put so many lives at stake, gambling that they'd be able to shot down th torps in space. As mentioned, Calder had no idea of GTVA ships capabilities, even details on their shape were sketchy. And precise jumping, Narayana artillery and plenty of fighter weapons were, IIRC, wartime inventions. Naras were rather pathetic in combat before the refit, and antimatter stocks being made into torpedoes was also really done after the war started. So, your mission would need to have the fighters not equipped with torpedoes and torps on Karunas weakened (AM torps were only produced after the war started). Renjian had the same armament as later Karunas only because it'd take too much table space to make special weapons for it, and it doesn't kill anything anyway.
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The events of Age of Aquarius were a tactical and strategic disaster of monumental proportions for the GTVA. The GTVA's whole strategy in Sol relied on using overwhelming force to break the UEF's back before they can get together any sort of significant resistance. Asymmetrical warfare against the UEF is a losing game; the UEF have a far more politically unified body politic and the home-turf advantage, they can disperse their assets and bleed the GTVA's political will dry using insurgent tactics. The GTVA did not want to wage this kind of war, and were not suited for it.
If the Sol Gate had worked as intended, the GTVA would have been able to bring the overwhelming force to bear immediately, which would have been multiplied by the element of surprise. Faced with a technologically, militarily, and numerically superior enemy whose capabilities aren't even known, the UEF could well have caved within a week or two.
AoA eliminated the surprise advantage, derailed the plan for the campaign, destroyed the inexorable momentum the Tevs were counting on, left the 14th battle group exhausted and understrength, and worst of all, gave the UEF time to adapt/regroup and comprehensive intel on pretty much everything related to the GTVA as well as a great deal of Tev materiel, technology, and resources from the defectors!
AoA was pretty much the worst thing that could have possibly happened under the circumstances. If Admiral Bei's battle group had been stuck in the other universe and never returned, it still probably wouldn't have been as big a setback as what actually happened. In fact from a storytelling perspective it's suspiciously convenient considering how many advantages it gives the UEF and handicaps it gives the GTVA.
And no, the Feds would not be able to use the tricks they use in WiH to defeat GTVA capital ships. They wouldn't know of the weaknesses, they wouldn't have formulated any of the tricks, and they'd be in no position to use them anyway. When surprise attacked by a superior opponent, you do not choose the terms under which you fight, the enemy does. The GTVA would pick their fights to maximize their own strengths and the UEF would be forced to fight on the Tevs' terms. In a blitzkrieg-style advance, the attackers act, and the defenders can only react.
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So...would it be a Pearl Harbour style thing if AoA didn't happen?
Would be rather funny to see GTVA ship blowing off whole Fed formations^^
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Actually, slashers are more like dedicated anti-subsystem beams, trading overall damage for being able to strip several subsystems at once.
If the pathing would be chosen in a way to specifically hit an area with many subsystems and the beam is sweeped more slowly, then maybe. In my experience, the way the slashers work right now, they usually don't contact any subsystem long enough to destroy them outright, if they hit any in the first place.
GTVA can do orbital bombardment, you'll see it in R2. They also bombed Luna City, which is already in R1.
The question wasn't wether the GTVA can do orbital bombardments, but wether they can do so 3 seconds after coming out of subspace. And with the Moon haveing much less gravity than Earth and Mars, you can jump much closer to it than you could to those planets.
From the moon attack we pretty much only know it happened. We don't know how long they needed from their jump-in point to the bombardment station. We don't even know if it was the capital ships that fired, or if they sent bombers out to do the bombing (considering Hecate and Deimos have no torpedo launchers, bombing runs with Cyclops and Helios fired by bombers are actually the most likely way in which the Luna bombing happened - unless there were no nuclear weapons involved and the "nuking" was only a figure of speech by Kassim).
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GTVA can do orbital bombardment, you'll see it in R2. They also bombed Luna City, which is already in R1.
The GTVA didn't do orbital bombardment on Luna. They used bombers to do the job "manually". The Meridian's fleet had no ship capable of long-range torpedo launching, and the Meridian was loading and unloading bombers at a fast rate when the task forced kicked its ass.
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So...would it be a Pearl Harbour style thing if AoA didn't happen?
Would be rather funny to see GTVA ship blowing off whole Fed formations^^
Pearl Harbor wasn't an invasion, it was a desperation attack to try to discourage the US (whom they thought were cowardly, unwarlike mercantilists who weren't willing to fight. They were wrong) from interfering with their plans for the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere", and possibly get them to lift sanctions. They miscalculated severely, however, both on the disposition of the American people and on the ability of America to replace the forces lost in Pearl Harbor (Japan thought it would take several years, it actually took around a year and a half even though most of our shipyards were building transport vessels to supply the UK and other remaining Allies).
The scenario would be more like Germany's Fall Rot operation against France, when they circumvented the Maginot Line by sending their forces through the Ardennes forest, which was believed to be impossible. By doing so they seized the advantages of initiative and surprised and with the overwhelming momentum of their blitzkrieg strategy they were able to dictate the nature of the battle much like the GTVA would. The French were unable to adapt or keep up with the German advance and could not prevent their critical assets from being quickly overrun. The French had a strong military that was not as good as the Wehrmacht but pretty respectable. If Germany had botched the initial offensive and allowed the French to regroup and prepare adequate defenses, they would have had to commit to a much slower-paced slugging war that would have likely ended in defeat as conquering France would have been more trouble than it was worth.
AoA's events changed the circumstances of the conflict to one where the GTVA had insurmountable advantages that would have lead to almost certain victory, to stacking the deck strongly in the UEF's favor to the point where victory is increasingly unlikely even with the technological, resource, and numerical superiority of the GTVA and Steele's superior command of tactics compared to the UEF admirals.
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I thought that thanks to the events in WiH the GTVA was almost certainly going to end up on top unless Magical Nagari Girl Laporte intervenes. Jupiter and all of its infrastructure has fallen to the Tevs and the UEF subspace tracking net is in shambles. UEF Third Fleet is almost completely gone, the Wargods got crushed at Neptune, Earth's orbital infrastructure got hammered in the Blitz, Luna got nuked by Severanti, the Imperieuse, Atreus, Hood, and Carthage are still in Sol and still able to perform offensive operations, and Steele has logistical and rear-lines support from the Vasudan Imperium. Aside from Byrne's secret project, what offensive assets can the UEF deploy that will let them win this war?
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The story indicates that political support for the war within the GTVA is far from a sure thing and continuously waning, and that's what really matters to an attacker (especially an ostensibly democratic state) in an invasion. If the UEF can hold on long enough to make the Tev civilians get fed up with the war and its costs, they win no matter how much damage the GTVA has done to them. Also the conclusion of conventional military operations does not preclude the formation of a successful resistance movement; the Ubuntu Party has more than enough popular support and ideological zeal to function effectively as a guerilla/terrorist organization after its military has been destroyed. They may have to compromise on some of their lofty principles, but they could continue the fight long after the war is "won".
Don't count the UEF out yet.
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unless there were no nuclear weapons involved and the "nuking" was only a figure of speech by Kassim).
The command briefing says "nuclear detonations at several domes." 'Twas bombers.
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The story indicates that political support for the war within the GTVA is far from a sure thing and continuously waning, and that's what really matters to an attacker (especially an ostensibly democratic state) in an invasion. If the UEF can hold on long enough to make the Tev civilians get fed up with the war and its costs, they win no matter how much damage the GTVA has done to them. Also the conclusion of conventional military operations does not preclude the formation of a successful resistance movement; the Ubuntu Party has more than enough popular support and ideological zeal to function effectively as a guerilla/terrorist organization after its military has been destroyed. They may have to compromise on some of their lofty principles, but they could continue the fight long after the war is "won".
Don't count the UEF out yet.
I expect the destruction of the Arethusa, or rather the circumstances of its destruction will reinforce support throughout the GTVA three fold.
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Magical Nagari Girl Laporte
This is the name of Act 5, btw. :D
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unless there were no nuclear weapons involved and the "nuking" was only a figure of speech by Kassim).
The command briefing says "nuclear detonations at several domes." 'Twas bombers.
Jupp, there is even a snippet where Tev bomber jockeys are being briefed about bombing undefended targets.
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I always liked to imagine they were hitting orphanage ships :drevil:
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The story indicates that political support for the war within the GTVA is far from a sure thing and continuously waning, and that's what really matters to an attacker (especially an ostensibly democratic state) in an invasion. If the UEF can hold on long enough to make the Tev civilians get fed up with the war and its costs, they win no matter how much damage the GTVA has done to them. Also the conclusion of conventional military operations does not preclude the formation of a successful resistance movement; the Ubuntu Party has more than enough popular support and ideological zeal to function effectively as a guerilla/terrorist organization after its military has been destroyed. They may have to compromise on some of their lofty principles, but they could continue the fight long after the war is "won".
Don't count the UEF out yet.
I expect the destruction of the Arethusa, or rather the circumstances of its destruction will reinforce support throughout the GTVA three fold.
You mean the Atreus?
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Well the Atreus wasn't destroyed so I would guess not?
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Nor was the Arethusa
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Eh, who knows. :doubt:
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Nor was the Arethusa
GTCv Arethusa destroyed under flag of truce by the UEFg Hesperia while assisting the Vasudan Logistics Ship Psedjet
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The story indicates that political support for the war within the GTVA is far from a sure thing and continuously waning, and that's what really matters to an attacker (especially an ostensibly democratic state) in an invasion. If the UEF can hold on long enough to make the Tev civilians get fed up with the war and its costs, they win no matter how much damage the GTVA has done to them. Also the conclusion of conventional military operations does not preclude the formation of a successful resistance movement; the Ubuntu Party has more than enough popular support and ideological zeal to function effectively as a guerilla/terrorist organization after its military has been destroyed. They may have to compromise on some of their lofty principles, but they could continue the fight long after the war is "won".
Don't count the UEF out yet.
I expect the destruction of the Arethusa, or rather the circumstances of its destruction will reinforce support throughout the GTVA three fold.
Not necessarily. War crimes just as often have no effect or even negative effect on enemy morale. See how al-Qaeda's terrorist attack in Madrid in 2004, killing nearly 200 Spanish civilians (a far more heinous act than destroying a military vessel, under flag of truce or not), weakened Spanish support for American military adventurism in the Middle East to the point where Spain withdrew from the "War on Terror". The UEF does not pose a threat to the survival of the GTVA; they only threaten the GTVA's violation of the UEF's sovereignty. The Feds just want to be left alone. The deaths of GTVA servicemembers and civlians are far more likely to sap morale than bolster it.
See also: Vietnam. The NVA and Viet Cong freely violated the laws and customs of war and committed atrocities against Vietnamese civilians and American soldiers, but support for the war steadily declined until the political case for further US involvement was completely untenable. Despite what some right-wing "domino theory" extremists may have said at the time, the United States had little to lose but face from withdrawing from Vietnam, and much more to lose (thousands more American lives, millions upon millions of taxpayer dollars) by staying there.
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The GTVA has a lot more to lose then face if it withdraws from Sol. Viet Nam and WiH aren't comparable. If the American populace had spent the decades prior to Viet Nam being sold the idea that it was a 'promised land' that their government would open up for them, then it would. The GTVA, (or at least its Terran Arm) has staked its very existence on capturing Sol. Mix in that the Americans were LOSING Viet Nam, and had no right to be there. The GTVA has some thin veil of law that they have staked their war on, and their winning.. handily.
Madrid isn't comparable either. Because that is Person C being harmed by Person B in response to the actions of Person A.
Al Quaeda directly attacked the United States on 9/11, in what was a blatant massacre and war crime. Support for going over seas to bring the perpetrators to justice was ridiculously high. When a definable enemy commits and atrocity against you, it ups the motivation to get vengeance. It only lowers support for vengeance when the victim is just collateral of other people's conflict.
Case in point, the GEF's may view the GTVA's incursion positively, but if the UEF military were to start cruising around the Kuiper belt (i know they don't have the assets for it, but just a what if) destroying GEF bases and colonies, support for the Tevs among the GEFs would drop dramatically, as the Tev incursion would be increasing Ubuntu militarism and spilling over onto the GEF's.
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The UEF never directly attacked the GTVA! They have engaged in military operations on their own territory, which the GTVA have no legitimate claim to whatsoever, whatever bull**** legal smokescreen they might try to put up. The crew of the Arethusa were military, not civilian. Even if they approached under a flag of truce they were still not civilians and killing them was not even half the atrocity that killing civilians is. The GTVA's war in Sol is naked imperialism, they have no legitimate justification, and sooner or later people are going to ask awkward questions about why their boys and girls are dying. "Because BETAC" will not be a satisfactory answer.
Again, the UEF do not have to military defeat the GTVA. The GTVA can utterly destroy the UEF's military and the UEF can still win. All the UEF have to do is to make the costs and consequences of the war sufficiently unpalatable to the GTVA.
Also keep in mind that the Afghanistan war might have been popular in November '01, but it is not very popular now, after years of insurgents slowly bleeding the US occupation forces of men and money. Every dead American soldier is a blow to popular support of the war. That, the continuous bleeding and attrition of US forces, not a terrorist attack on American civilians on American soil, is a reasonable analogue for the destruction of the Arethusa. The Taliban have never been a match for the American military. Not even close. But they have never had to be.
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My point wasn't to equate 9/11 with WiH tactics on either side, my point was to illustrate the rage that a war crime would engender, at least in the short term. As I said, I still believe the circumstances around the Arethusa's destruction will reinforce popular support for the war, not weaken it.
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That depends on how accurate the reports sent back home are. If they tell about the cooperation between the Indus and Arethusa to save the Presejet, before telling about the destruction of the Deimos, then I doubt it will have any negative impact.
And with the Vasudans watching and recording the whole thing, I don't think the Terran Assembly can get away with an outright lie in this instance.
On that topic: Does anyone know what happened to the Argo that surrendered? Where they taken prisoner, or where they allowed to hitch a ride back home on the Presedjet?
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The Vasudans at this point think that the attack on the Pesedjet was part of a Fed ploy to divide the GTVA, remember? Steele hooked them with a lie that damns the UEF even more than the destruction of the Arethusa. It's why there's a Vasudan destroyer camped out at the node now.
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On that topic: Does anyone know what happened to the Argo that surrendered? Where they taken prisoner, or where they allowed to hitch a ride back home on the Presedjet?
They were on there at the request of the Vasudans correct? So would that mean the Vasudans have a say in what happens to them? (If so, I don't imagine the Vasudans would willingly hand over them to the UEF)
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That depends on how accurate the reports sent back home are. If they tell about the cooperation between the Indus and Arethusa to save the Presejet, before telling about the destruction of the Deimos, then I doubt it will have any negative impact.
And with the Vasudans watching and recording the whole thing, I don't think the Terran Assembly can get away with an outright lie in this instance.
On that topic: Does anyone know what happened to the Argo that surrendered? Where they taken prisoner, or where they allowed to hitch a ride back home on the Presedjet?
Negative for who?
It would have a MASSIVELY negative effect for the UEF, and positive one for the GTVA
"Captain Price and his crew valiantly worked to save the Psedjet, but were to zealous in their concern for their allied Vasudans. They agreed to a truce with UEF forces that offered to help the Vasudans as well - Before the UEF ambushed and destroyed them on their humanitarian mission."
^ GTVA public now has a tangible reason to hate the UEF. They are turncoats. They ambush under flag of truce. True or not, the GTVA can spin it as the UEF are evil, evil people who massacred an innocent crew. Remember the tevs have complete and total control of information dissemination outside of Sol. No one would ever know it was an accident.
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My point wasn't to equate 9/11 with WiH tactics on either side, my point was to illustrate the rage that a war crime would engender, at least in the short term. As I said, I still believe the circumstances around the Arethusa's destruction will reinforce popular support for the war, not weaken it.
Most of the opponents the US has fought since World War I committed war crimes constantly. Do you see mass outpourings of rage every time they kill a journalist or medic?
"Turncoats" doesn't even begin to make sense. Even under a flag of truce the UEF are still enemies to the GTVA, even if they've supposedly put aside their arms for a meeting. Enemy combatants doing dirty business isn't going to seriously shock anyone. It happens in every war, on every side.
"Complete control of information dissemination" is pretty lol too. You do realize that the servicemembers who have served there, as well as the civilian contractors who tag along on every expeditionary force doing jobs that the GTVA would rather not waste military personnel on, would be perfectly capable of making their own views heard, right? They have their own brains and their own eyes, and some of them might not agree with the official propaganda. Even if people risk going to prison for it, other perspectives of the war will leak out. If any sympathetic Tevs end up speaking with UEF prisoners, people in the GTVA could end up hearing some of the UEF's side as well. Wars are not laboratory experiments; there are many things that happen that you cannot control.
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That depends on how accurate the reports sent back home are. If they tell about the cooperation between the Indus and Arethusa to save the Presejet, before telling about the destruction of the Deimos, then I doubt it will have any negative impact.
And with the Vasudans watching and recording the whole thing, I don't think the Terran Assembly can get away with an outright lie in this instance.
On that topic: Does anyone know what happened to the Argo that surrendered? Where they taken prisoner, or where they allowed to hitch a ride back home on the Presedjet?
Negative for who?
It would have a MASSIVELY negative effect for the UEF, and positive one for the GTVA
"Captain Price and his crew valiantly worked to save the Psedjet, but were to zealous in their concern for their allied Vasudans. They agreed to a truce with UEF forces that offered to help the Vasudans as well - Before the UEF ambushed and destroyed them on their humanitarian mission."
^ GTVA public now has a tangible reason to hate the UEF. They are turncoats. They ambush under flag of truce. True or not, the GTVA can spin it as the UEF are evil, evil people who massacred an innocent crew. Remember the tevs have complete and total control of information dissemination outside of Sol. No one would ever know it was an accident.
Just a little problem with that. To ambush someone you have to know they are there. But thanks to the Arethusas jamming, the Indus was unable to call in reinforcements. I don't think the Vasudans would stand for such a twisting of the truth.
The Vasudans at this point think that the attack on the Pesedjet was part of a Fed ploy to divide the GTVA, remember? Steele hooked them with a lie that damns the UEF even more than the destruction of the Arethusa. It's why there's a Vasudan destroyer camped out at the node now.
"At this point"... which point? After the assasination, yes. But there was plenty of time before that, in which the Vasudans weren't yet blinded by Steels lies and manipulations, in which they would have acted accordingly.
Either way I doubt that incident, or anything else, will hit the local GTVA newsbroadcasts, before the end of the war. If they keep completely silent about the war and then bring a single story discrediting the UEF, just to go silent again afterwards, it smells far too much of propaganda to risk sending it.
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I personally came away from that mission enraged at the UEF - I am not objective in the least, but I am human.
If someone who 'witnessed' the mission 'first hand' can see the situation that way, it can certainly be portrayed even more badly for the UEF.
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My point wasn't to equate 9/11 with WiH tactics on either side, my point was to illustrate the rage that a war crime would engender, at least in the short term. As I said, I still believe the circumstances around the Arethusa's destruction will reinforce popular support for the war, not weaken it.
Most of the opponents the US has fought since World War I committed war crimes constantly. Do you see mass outpourings of rage every time they kill a journalist or medic?
"Turncoats" doesn't even begin to make sense. Even under a flag of truce the UEF are still enemies to the GTVA, even if they've supposedly put aside their arms for a meeting. Enemy combatants doing dirty business isn't going to seriously shock anyone. It happens in every war, on every side.
"Complete control of information dissemination" is pretty lol too. You do realize that the servicemembers who have served there, as well as the civilian contractors who tag along on every expeditionary force doing jobs that the GTVA would rather not waste military personnel on, would be perfectly capable of making their own views heard, right? They have their own brains and their own eyes, and some of them might not agree with the official propaganda. Even if people risk going to prison for it, other perspectives of the war will leak out. If any sympathetic Tevs end up speaking with UEF prisoners, people in the GTVA could end up hearing some of the UEF's side as well. Wars are not laboratory experiments; there are many things that happen that you cannot control.
The US also has a habit of fighting puny enemies that have standard operation policy of Guerrilla warfare. One war crime among many doesn't make headlines though. What would happen if the US was fighting Russia and the Russians called a truce and then blew up a US Carrier? Would Americans be outraged? I think so.
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Yes sure, but that is hardly the situation of that mission.
It wasn't the UEF (or in your scenario the russians) who called the truth. It was a single ship that went into truce with a single other ship and due to the jamming, neither high command was aware of that truce.
And the Arethusa returning fire wasn't helping either. Sure it's only a natural reaction to return fire, when you get shot, but if they had not shot back, the Nara might have reacted to the Indus' and Presedgets called to cease fire.
It was all a very unfortunate chain of events, where half of the thigns that could have gone wrong, did go wrong. With hindsight it's easy to point out what they could have done differently, but I in the situations they were in, the decisions of everyone do make sense, which makes it all the more tragic.
I personally came away from that mission enraged at the UEF - I am not objective in the least, but I am human.
If someone who 'witnessed' the mission 'first hand' can see the situation that way, it can certainly be portrayed even more badly for the UEF.
So because of the mistake of a single person (the captain of the Narayana) you hate the entire UEF?
But can you really blame him. The Indus wsn't authorized to initiate a cease fire with GTA ships and whenever GTVA ships came in contact with UEF ships, they tried their best to blow the **** out of them without mercy and often enough without warning too.
When you see someone who tried to kill you several times, do you take the time to check wether he aiming a weapon at you, before you attack?
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Just because it was a tragic accident doesn't mean that's how the tevs will play it to their own populace in the propaganda mill.
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I don't see how they could make a very big deal out of a single corvette going down. As Norbert pointed out its not like it was a large scale ceasefire either. A united states aircraft carrier going down would be like one of the GTVA destroyers getting blown up. It wouldn't be crippling but it would piss people off a lot more than a corvette.
It could be pretty rich propoganda but I doubt it would be taken all that seriously. A Deimos was blown up. Again. So ****ing what.
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Circumstances of the destruction are a lot more useful for propaganda then the destruction itself in the Arethusa's case.
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It might make the propaganda more potent, however I still don't think people would care overmuch. It would certainly generate some upset people but its unlikely that it would bolster support for the whole war. Again corvettes aren't that big a deal. People will only have a limited concern for what happens to them. I'd guess the upset would be roughly analogous to three or so brigades of infantry doing something similar to eachother.
A few thousand people died to treachery in an isolated incident. This is so unexpected in a full scale war.
If this was happening right and left people might care a bit more, but as has also been pointed nobody gives a crap if the enemy plays fair anyways.