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Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: mjn.mixael on January 14, 2012, 10:09:22 am

Title: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 14, 2012, 10:09:22 am
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk264/mjnmixael/FreeSpace%20Logos/NuBlueLions3.png)

Original.

(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Squad70.PNG)
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: WouterSmitssm on January 14, 2012, 10:10:40 am
nice pic for freespace 2
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: SypheDMar on January 14, 2012, 10:13:47 am
The claws are too thick! ;7 Nicely done. It's not hand drawn right? The paws of the lion is the only thing that looks out-of-place, but unless there's a better picture out there, it's not a problem.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 14, 2012, 10:17:33 am
No, it's definitely not hand drawn by me...
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Rodo on January 14, 2012, 10:23:10 am
I'll have to say no this time around, the reason is because I don't like the eyes and the face.
It's like someone is shoving something up his ass, I know it might be hard to see, specially because this is a lion we're talking about. But anyways I had the feeling that if you take this "expression" and put it into a person on the same position the first thing I would think of is...well that thing I wrote before.

Maybe taking a real lion image and doing some postprocessing on it might yield a better result, I know Herra did the 53rd Hammerheads's insignia like that (IIRC) and it looked quite nice.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 14, 2012, 10:26:01 am
Maybe taking a real lion image and doing some postprocessing on it might yield a better result, I know Herra did the 53rd Hammerheads's insignia like that (IIRC) and it looked quite nice.

Yeah.. I tried that. You will never be able to get a similar look to the original. It's just too stylized. But you are welcome to try yourself. If you come up with better results than I did, then I'll take it.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on January 14, 2012, 10:28:38 am
Now that's a cool logo. Well suited for the legendary Alpha 1 (of the Capella era).
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Rodo on January 14, 2012, 10:34:53 am
Yeah.. I tried that. You will never be able to get a similar look to the original. It's just too stylized.

I get what you are saying, now that I see the original it does seem quite stylized to use a real image as a base indeed.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: WouterSmitssm on January 14, 2012, 10:45:45 am
I like this pic
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Alan Bolte on January 14, 2012, 10:55:57 am
I think the main difference from the original is that this image is more realistic. The original had a very muscular, slightly anthropomorphic lion that was making a sort of taxidermied-snarling-beast gesture (the new one looks more like it's climbing an invisible slope). It's reminiscent of the lions of heraldry, but more detailed.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on January 14, 2012, 11:59:41 am
Yeah I tried making one but I could never get the facial expression right, and the muscle structure and the original logo's emboss/statue-like nature was similarly elusive. Never got it to a stage where it was acceptable or notably better than the version I posed ages ago.

I like this version, even though the position of the lion is actually a far cry from the original (hands inverted, left hind leg too high up, and the tail all different) it is still instantly recognizeable. The claw marks are excellently done.


Regarding the hammerhead logo, I was extremely lucky to find an image of a hammerhead shark in a posture closely resembling the original. I basically did edge detect on it, doctored it a bit to clean up the lines I wanted to go away, and used the result for the shark's outline. In that case, it worked well. I wouldn't like to try it on most other cases, and the reason I did it was mostly because the original hammerhead shark in the logo was a god-awful mess that I couldn't really trace draw around (plus it was kind of badly drawn too I think).

In 70th logo, the original includes a heraldic lion which is a different beast entirely than a real lion. Real lions do not climb on their hind legs and wave their forepaws around in the air while snarling viciously. Bears do, but they still don't resemble the actual heraldic Rampant attitude.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: T-LoW on January 14, 2012, 12:13:13 pm
It's of course much better than the old one but I think the lion needs a bit softer shading. The old one has a slightly 3-dimensional look (I like that).

But that's just criticism to the details. Overall: Me gusta :)
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on January 14, 2012, 12:40:19 pm
It's of course much better than the old one but I think the lion needs a bit softer shading. The old one has a slightly 3-dimensional look (I like that).

But that's just criticism to the details. Overall: Me gusta :)

I'll endorse both of these. The old one had more shading gradients, less plain-blue areas; but regardless, you've captured the feel of the original very well.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 14, 2012, 01:09:28 pm
Something like this perhaps? I tried to add some shading here and there and give it a more 3Dish look...

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on January 14, 2012, 01:24:53 pm
Yes, that's better, although I'd give it even more - of course that's just my opinion.

Looking at it in thumbnail size, though, the detail seems to get somewhat lost in scaling... the old one has bolder, darker lines, which stand out more at small scale. And, uh, the cables are too thick tail is too thin, it's just one pixel (in the attachment thumbnail, yes - but on a fighter it won't be much larger than that). Okay, I'll shut up now :nervous:
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 14, 2012, 01:32:04 pm
Hmm, changes to the shape are somewhat more difficult... I'll try some things.. but no promises!
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Thaeris on January 14, 2012, 01:45:47 pm
I hate to say this, but I like the form of the original emblem better. The shape of the original just fits in the allotted space much better than the new lion, which draws your eyes to the right rather than center.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: shiv on January 14, 2012, 01:49:38 pm
There's no snuffleupagus. I can't vote with lacking option :(
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 14, 2012, 02:01:46 pm
le wut. I though *sneeze* was a pretty obvious snuffleupagus...

Also, here's a comparison of versions available. I need one at a higher resolution, so... like it or not, the retail one is out of the question. It scales really badly.

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Sololop on January 14, 2012, 02:21:24 pm
If the 2nd and the 4th could somehow become one... I think would be best. Shape of the 4th with the shading of the 2nd
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 14, 2012, 02:25:45 pm
Not possible. It's either one of those or someone else tries to make a better one.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 14, 2012, 03:12:26 pm
Double post to show some changes/fixes.

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: WouterSmitssm on January 14, 2012, 03:16:35 pm
the pic is dark
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Nohiki on January 14, 2012, 03:53:04 pm
The lion looks SCARED. Make him look RAWR
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Ulala on January 14, 2012, 10:08:29 pm
le wut. I though *sneeze* was a pretty obvious snuffleupagus...

Also, here's a comparison of versions available. I need one at a higher resolution, so... like it or not, the retail one is out of the question. It scales really badly.

I don't think the fourth one is bad at all, though a little darker shading in certain areas might help. I think I could live with it. Can we see #4 in 128x128 please? :)
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on January 15, 2012, 12:08:59 pm
The tail now seems thinner than ever, but the shading's looking good to me :yes:
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Mongoose on January 15, 2012, 12:40:33 pm
It looks sufficiently blue and lion-y enough for me. :yes:
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Ulala on January 15, 2012, 02:42:10 pm
I hope you don't mind, I tried tweaking it to be just a little darker in some spots; my photoshop skills are pretty rusty, but maybe this will help you fine tune. Whatever you end up deciding will be better than the hella low res original.

(http://www.hexellent.com/files/88/uBLn125.png)
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: SypheDMar on January 15, 2012, 02:47:26 pm
Upload a bigger one.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: swashmebuckle on January 15, 2012, 02:59:38 pm
I like the Mixael version a lot, but I think it would be better if the leg angle was lowered and maybe stretched out a bit so that it appeared to be walking forward or rearing up (like in the original).  With that leg up in the air, it looks like it's trying to do the crane kick from Karate Kid or something :D
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Ulala on January 15, 2012, 03:16:22 pm
Agreed, the rearing up look is iconic.

Here's the slightly higher contrast version but larger. All credit is due to Mixael of course.

(http://www.hexellent.com/files/88/uBLn550.png)
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on January 15, 2012, 03:24:11 pm
Agreed, the rearing up look is iconic.

Here's the slightly higher contrast version but larger. All credit is due to Mixael of course.

(http://www.hexellent.com/files/88/uBLn550.png)

That's actually the one I made some time ago. Don't mind at all if people can improve it.

I think the shading needs to be less abrupt, though. Maybe use a little bit bigger/fuzzier airbrush so that you don't go from "non-shaded" to "dark" in an instant.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 15, 2012, 03:46:09 pm
Fine... You guys are very picky, you know that? I tried to thicken up the tail and moved the leg position down a bit. Putting my Photoshop skills to the test here... If anyone asks me to switch the arms I'll flip a lid.

(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk264/mjnmixael/FreeSpace%20Logos/NuBlueLions3.png)
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Cobaltred on January 15, 2012, 06:24:52 pm
mjn your work is great as usual.  Something has been bothering me about that left paw though.  I think it's just the angle it's being perceived from, but it looks weird and it's hard to even really discern that it's a paw.  Perhaps you could splay out the toes in a manner similar to the original's lower paw?

Just a thought.  I can't even draw stick figures so feel free to ignore my amateur advice!
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 15, 2012, 09:55:49 pm
I attempted to fix that left paw

(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk264/mjnmixael/FreeSpace%20Logos/NuBlueLions3.png)
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: SypheDMar on January 15, 2012, 10:24:40 pm
If anyone asks me to switch the arms I'll flip a lid.
... Challenge Accepted. (It's not that great and is based on before paw edit.)

(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r306/SypheDeath/NuBlueLions4.png)
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 15, 2012, 10:27:04 pm
The arm looks weak... Also, which arm is raised made enough difference to you to actually spend time on it? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised...
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: jg18 on January 15, 2012, 11:22:41 pm
I have to admit that I prefer the arm arrangement in SypheDMar's version, although I'm still happy with mjn's version overall (no lid flipping is necessary ;)).

EDIT: "prefer" meaning the overall arrangement (i.e. with the left arm raised), subject to adjustments, refinements, etc.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Scourge of Ages on January 15, 2012, 11:31:14 pm
If the arm positions weren't just so... different... from the original, mjn's latest update would be perfect. And since I don't happen to care that the arm position is different, I'm going to call it perfect, right now. Good job again, mjn!
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 15, 2012, 11:33:10 pm
...

I'm tempted to use the "wrong" arm arrangement just to make a point that little **** like that shouldn't matter one damned bit. Sometimes I hate doing stuff for you guys.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: jg18 on January 15, 2012, 11:41:58 pm
Sorry, it can be easy to get fixated on the little **** and miss the big picture.

It looks fantastic, mjn. Really. :yes:
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on January 15, 2012, 11:45:40 pm
Quote
I'm tempted to use the "wrong" arm arrangement just to make a point that little **** like that shouldn't matter one damned bit. Sometimes I hate doing stuff for you guys.


I have to agree... The pipes of relevance (thick as they may be) are getting clogged by a lot of things that you should normally dump in a big truck.

It's not the exact form factor that is important, it's the impression. I think the un-edited version of the lion Mjn used was the best so far as far as facial impression, overall posture, and drawing style goes. It's like a lot of other stuff that is accepted in the FreeSpace Upgrade project - many models have artistic freedom in improving the design, and as long as it is identifiable as the original but made in higher definition, it usually as quite acceptable.

It's not like the lion being in slightly different position will adversely affect mission balance or identifiability.


That said, my opinion about this kind of edits...

Moving arms and legs around in a drawing is more likely to damage the overall impression of the drawing unless you are really, really good with what you're doing... case in point the switched arms look silly because the chest is now discontinuous and the right arm looks quite thin. Tail was improved, but I would rather leave the limbs alone, and either use the drawing as it is, or do something else.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Ulala on January 16, 2012, 12:26:07 am
I attempted to fix that left paw

(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk264/mjnmixael/FreeSpace%20Logos/NuBlueLions3.png)

I think this one looks excellent. Great work, mjn! :yes:
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on January 16, 2012, 12:38:56 pm
Yeah, the chest in SDM's version is messed up. I think mjn's latest version will fill the job nicely, though :yes:
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Thaeris on January 16, 2012, 05:29:26 pm
The forward paws and feet are quite disproportionate... if you can fix that, it would be advisable.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Cobaltred on January 16, 2012, 07:50:58 pm
Latest version looks great, thanks for fixing the left paw mjn!  Thaeris, i think if you look at the original, the paws are disproportionately large.  It's just part of the anthropomorphism of the lion.  In my very humble opinion, this turkey's done!
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: bobbtmann on January 16, 2012, 10:16:18 pm
Why don't you just trace it? Put a translucent layer over top, and draw what's there. It would't take long, and it's be 100% accurate.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on January 17, 2012, 01:34:47 am
Why don't you just trace it? Put a translucent layer over top, and draw what's there. It would't take long, and it's be 100% accurate.


The original scales so badly that it is almost impossible to interpolate where you should put a line and where not.

However, this is actually what I did with my version - except IRL. Basically, I printed the original on an A4 sheet and taped another paper on top of it. Then I traced the outline of the lion the best I could.

That part was not the problem. Problem was giving the thing a decent facial expression as well as the detail of the mane, legs, muscles, and tail. This all proved to be something that both takes long and is almost impossible to get the same impression as the original, at least for me...
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 17, 2012, 04:50:12 am
Number three baby.



All the freaking way :yes:
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: bobbtmann on January 18, 2012, 10:45:21 am
Why don't you just trace it? Put a translucent layer over top, and draw what's there. It would't take long, and it's be 100% accurate.


The original scales so badly that it is almost impossible to interpolate where you should put a line and where not.

However, this is actually what I did with my version - except IRL. Basically, I printed the original on an A4 sheet and taped another paper on top of it. Then I traced the outline of the lion the best I could.

That part was not the problem. Problem was giving the thing a decent facial expression as well as the detail of the mane, legs, muscles, and tail. This all proved to be something that both takes long and is almost impossible to get the same impression as the original, at least for me...

I just did it a couple of days ago when I wrote that post. It worked fine for me, since there's easily enough information there for any size, really. Try tracing it in Photoshop or Gimp.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 18, 2012, 11:48:11 am
If you traced it.. post it and if it's better I'll use it. Why should I have to go through and trace it if you already did?
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: swashmebuckle on January 18, 2012, 01:19:22 pm
Love the last mixael version--great stuff!
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: Klaustrophobia on January 18, 2012, 05:36:29 pm
i must say, i prefer the original by quite a large margin.  of the new ones, the one seen on this page is the best.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: bobbtmann on January 19, 2012, 10:58:59 pm
If you traced it.. post it and if it's better I'll use it. Why should I have to go through and trace it if you already did?

Cause I didn't save it. I was just trying it out to see if it worked.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: sigtau on January 28, 2012, 01:43:45 pm
Detail nitpicking is bull****.  I like this and support its inclusion in FSU 100%. :yes:
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: mjn.mixael on January 28, 2012, 02:11:12 pm
If you traced it.. post it and if it's better I'll use it. Why should I have to go through and trace it if you already did?

Cause I didn't save it. I was just trying it out to see if it worked.

Well, I'm not convinced that it will work with any sort of quality. Till I see otherwise, I'm just going to go with what I have.
Title: Re: 70th Blue Lions?
Post by: bobbtmann on January 29, 2012, 10:22:43 am
Till I see otherwise, I'm just going to go with what I have.

Suit yourself.