Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Lorric on January 16, 2012, 12:33:25 pm
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I'm not sure if this is posted in the right place, but anyway...
I was doing just fine on the keyboard, but I've gone and overdone it and damaged my hand I think. That is a consequence of being starved of my favourite game genre for many years and then suddenly having tons and tons of campaigns to play. So frustrating...
Anyway, I know nothing about joysticks. I just need one I can play Freespace 2 with and comfortably fly my fighter and operate the secondary stuff with the keyboard. Can anyone help? I'd obviously need it to be able to stick to my desk.
Any advice on the hand too would be welcome. It hurts and feels like it's burning if I try to play. It's been like that for 3 days.
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Sorry, don't know about joysticks. But I recommend you have your hand checked by a doctor, because carpal tunnel syndrome is a *****.
That said, could be something way less nasty, like a sprain, but the sooner you find out what it is, the sooner you'll find out if it has to be treated and the less damage you'll do to yourself without knowing.
And I suppose that, about the joysticks, you'll find more help here if you tell us what kind of a price range you're after.
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Sorry, don't know about joysticks. But I recommend you have your hand checked by a doctor, because carpal tunnel syndrome is a *****.
That said, could be something way less nasty, like a sprain, but the sooner you find out what it is, the sooner you'll find out if it has to be treated and the less damage you'll do to yourself without knowing.
And I suppose that, about the joysticks, you'll find more help here if you tell us what kind of a price range you're after.
I had a quick look at the symptoms and I really don't think I'll have that. I don't get any numbness. I can perform non-keyboard tasks quite well. It's mainly on the right side of the hand. It's nothing more than a minor annoyance if I'm not playing.
Price, I have no idea how much they cost either. It is my favourite genre I'll be buying it to play though, so I'd think I wouldn't have trouble shelling out about as much as for a new Playstation 3 game.
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Sorry, don't know about joysticks. But I recommend you have your hand checked by a doctor, because carpal tunnel syndrome is a *****.
That said, could be something way less nasty, like a sprain, but the sooner you find out what it is, the sooner you'll find out if it has to be treated and the less damage you'll do to yourself without knowing.
And I suppose that, about the joysticks, you'll find more help here if you tell us what kind of a price range you're after.
I had a quick look at the symptoms and I really don't think I'll have that. I don't get any numbness. I can perform non-keyboard tasks quite well. It's mainly on the right side of the hand. It's nothing more than a minor annoyance if I'm not playing.
I had a similar feeling a couple times... Switching from mouse to touchpad ( if laptop) for a while (or vice versa) usually helps - besides not touching the computer for a while, obviously :P
Price, I have no idea how much they cost either. It is my favourite genre I'll be buying it to play though, so I'd think I wouldn't have trouble shelling out about as much as for a new Playstation 3 game.
You can get a cheap one for 20$, a decent one for ~50$, while full-blown HOTAS arrangements can top 200$.
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I had a similar feeling a couple times... Switching from mouse to touchpad ( if laptop) for a while (or vice versa) usually helps - besides not touching the computer for a while, obviously :P
I was actually using the arrows on the keyboard. I couldn't deal with the mouse. And it's not a laptop.
You can get a cheap one for 20$, a decent one for ~50$, while full-blown HOTAS arrangements can top 200$.
I certainly wouldn't want to pay $200. I'm in England btw, I'm not sure what the exchange rate is, but I'm sure I could handle somewhere between $50 and $100 tops. I think if I was able to shoot and change weapons on the joystick I might be fine. Any joystick players have any advice on how they play and what their joystick lets them do?
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I picked up my Logitech Extreme 3d joystick for about 30$ (I'd put a link, but Newegg's out of stock...) and I get perfectly passable vehicle performance out of it - way better than with just a keyboard, certainly, though my desk is a little cramped for the addition. Four control axes (pitch, roll, and yaw on the stick, plus a throttle on the base) are about all I can deal with at any one time, and it's got plenty of buttons, though the half-dozen on the base could stand to be more distinct from each other - I've occasionally hit the wrong shield control by mistake and... Well it's a good thing you can restart missions when you hit 'all shields forward' instead of 'all shields rear'. I should probably remap that.
Other people will doubtless have advice for more advanced/complicated/HOTAS setups. I'll just say this: if possible, find a physical store that carries the controller you want, go there, and get the salesperson to let you take it out of the box to make sure it fits your hand well. This is especially important if you're dealing with an RSI, on which topic I'll second the 'consider seeking medical attention' advice Enioch gave..
I certainly wouldn't want to pay $200. I'm in England btw, I'm not sure what the exchange rate is, but I'm sure I could handle somewhere between $50 and $100 tops.
The exchange rate (UK-to-US) is 3-to-2, so thirty dollars should work out to about twenty pounds. In theory.
I think if I was able to shoot and change weapons on the joystick I might be fine. Any joystick players have any advice on how they play and what their joystick lets them do?
Every control I use regularly in combat is mapped somewhere on the joystick. Three axes of motion on the stick for roll, pitch, and yaw. A throttle on the base for speed. Trigger for guns, thumb-toggle for missiles, hat-switch for looking around, targeting controls, afterburner, and countermeasures on the four extra top buttons, shields and suchlike on the base next to the throttle.
The only things missing are Comms, power controls (e/g/s), and secondary bank selector, which I think I'll map to the spare button I've got on the base...
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I picked up my Logitech Extreme 3d joystick for about 30$ (I'd put a link, but Newegg's out of stock...) and I get perfectly passable vehicle performance out of it - way better than with just a keyboard, certainly, though my desk is a little cramped for the addition. Four control axes (pitch, roll, and yaw on the stick, plus a throttle on the base) are about all I can deal with at any one time, and it's got plenty of buttons, though the half-dozen on the base could stand to be more distinct from each other - I've occasionally hit the wrong shield control by mistake and... Well it's a good thing you can restart missions when you hit 'all shields forward' instead of 'all shields rear'. I should probably remap that.
Other people will doubtless have advice for more advanced/complicated/HOTAS setups. I'll just say this: if possible, find a physical store that carries the controller you want, go there, and get the salesperson to let you take it out of the box to make sure it fits your hand well. This is especially important if you're dealing with an RSI, on which topic I'll second the 'consider seeking medical attention' advice Enioch gave..
This thing?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Logitech-942-000005-Extreme-Pro-Joystick/dp/B002BYONB0/ref=dp_ob_title_vg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Logitech-942-000005-Extreme-Pro-Joystick/dp/B002BYONB0/ref=dp_ob_title_vg)
This is where it starts getting intimidating you see. I have of course tried to look at them myself, but they just look so different to the plain ole 1 button joysticks I was used to as a kid on my commodore 64 :)
The star ratings are certainly positive.
So, why is it such a strange shape? And what do the following mean:
eight-way rubberized hat switch, twist handle, and rapid-fire trigger.
I'm guessing the last one means a turbo function is available? Not that you need one for Freespace 2, you just press the button down. Would you twist the handle to make yourself roll or something?
I know for gripping a joypad I'm okay. Dusted off Colony Wars yesterday. No problems. I guess it's because my thumb and first two fingers are used to pushing buttons, but the last two are used to just chilling, and now had to be put to work :)
I will be seeing a doctor in the not too distant furure about something unrelated, so I will be able to ask about the hand if it remains a problem. Currently it's got no worse, but no better either.
Oh I already tried the physical store. We used to have several stores, but since the crunch, all but one have gone out of business. And they said they haven't seen a PC joystick in years.
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Oh, I just remembered something, on the hand your last two fingers, unlike the others are covered by just one bone, which splits out for your last two fingers. That's definately where most of the pain is. Around where the bone splits, and moreso to the sides.
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That's the one. It's great for the price, (at least in the states, though it looks like you guys got boned on the import costs) and fits well into my hand.
The joystick has three degrees of motion: <---> for yaw, ^/v for pitch and twist [I don't have an easy letter to press for rotatey arrows] for roll (or for rotate cockpit when I play Mechwarrior). It's very intuitive, as far as that goes.
The strange shape fits REALLY well into my right hand, hopefully yours as well, though as I said, if you can get your hand on it in the shop first...
The hat-switch is a little nub on top in between those four buttons that is used (in default settings) to quickly toggle over to look out the side or rear of your cockpit. As with everything, it's remappable. It's basically like having extra arrow keys that you can hit with your thumb.
Rapid-fire trigger... well, it basically doesn't mean anything. If you want a turbo firemode, you'd have to put something together in software, and there's software out there to do that with.
Also: DO NOT TRUST THE INTERNET FOR MEDICAL ADVICE.
(Yes, I realize that's medical advice on the internet.)
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Personally, I'd say go with a Logitech Attack 3. It's cheap, has plenty of buttons, and I'd say is pretty good for the price I payed
It's also not all that clunky in my opinion
As for whatever issues you have with your hand, I have no bloody clue
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That's the one. It's great for the price, (at least in the states, though it looks like you guys got boned on the import costs) and fits well into my hand.
The joystick has three degrees of motion: <---> for yaw, ^/v for pitch and twist [I don't have an easy letter to press for rotatey arrows] for roll (or for rotate cockpit when I play Mechwarrior). It's very intuitive, as far as that goes.
The strange shape fits REALLY well into my right hand, hopefully yours as well, though as I said, if you can get your hand on it in the shop first...
The hat-switch is a little nub on top in between those four buttons that is used (in default settings) to quickly toggle over to look out the side or rear of your cockpit. As with everything, it's remappable. It's basically like having extra arrow keys that you can hit with your thumb.
Rapid-fire trigger... well, it basically doesn't mean anything. If you want a turbo firemode, you'd have to put something together in software, and there's software out there to do that with.
Also: DO NOT TRUST THE INTERNET FOR MEDICAL ADVICE.
(Yes, I realize that's medical advice on the internet.)
Go on then, LordMelvin. I'll give this a try. You, and those positive reviews there that I've been reading have convinced me. Thank you for your help.
Oh yes, I get jealous whenever I look at US prices vs UK prices on anything to do with computers. US prices are pretty often close to the same in dollars vs £s. I'm sure you know £s are worth a lot more than dollars, so you see things costing like £32.99 and US gets them for $39.99.
Yes, I would certainly consult a real doctor rather than the internet for medical advice. But it seems far enough off fo rme not to worry. If it starts getting worse without me making it worse by playing, I wil want to go and see one. I hope it will wear off on it's own though eventually once the source of the problem is eliminated.
(Awakenings Campaign, mission 2 was the cause btw. Long mission, 3rd attempt. Probably the longest continous play I've had since getting the game. Normally play time would be broken up by mission briefings and loading out ships, giving my hand a rest.)
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Personally, I'd say go with a Logitech Attack 3. It's cheap, has plenty of buttons, and I'd say is pretty good for the price I payed
It's also not all that clunky in my opinion
As for whatever issues you have with your hand, I have no bloody clue
I checked that out but they were only selling used ones on the site. I'd prefer a new one. Thanks anyway.
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If you can find a Saitek x52 in your price range, jump on it.
That being said, I also have a Extreme 3D Pro. It's a good stick, and you can fit almost everything you need on the stick/base. I have all weapon and targeting controls on the stick (right hand only) and the few left over I need is easily within range on the base while still using the thumb throttle. I personaly use the hat as an extra 4 controls instead of 'look around', but thats preference of the user. Its 'capable' of 8 directions, but in practice you can only really get 4 out of it. Twist handle is your 3rd dimension, Roll, which can help you turn faster and control your ships profile. Rapid fire trigger... Its sensitive alright, it takes less motion to pull it all the way then other triggers. But in FS where you just hold it down it is kinda useless.
As LordMelvin said, the grip is just perfect. The only thing you should have to move around is your thumb, and button 2 (the one kinda on the side) is just in a good spot for resting position, and the hat/top keys should be well within your thumbs range of motion. The outside 3 fingers should never have to move. Twist, turn, doesnt matter, its a comfortable grip and they should stay in one spot the whole time.
The 3D Pro is the best cheap-end joystick. There are many better then it (for much more money), but dont go cheaper just to save a buck, you'll regret it later.
Personally, I'd say go with a Logitech Attack 3. It's cheap, has plenty of buttons, and I'd say is pretty good for the price I payed
It's also not all that clunky in my opinion
As for whatever issues you have with your hand, I have no bloody clue
Burn for that comment! The Attack 3 is a horrible horrible joystick. (I should know, I've got 2) No roll, no hat, 'righty/lefty' handle and base with an uncomfortable grip. Worth a lot less then just $10 under the 3D Pro.
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If you can find a Saitek x52 in your price range, jump on it.
That being said, I also have a Extreme 3D Pro. It's a good stick, and you can fit almost everything you need on the stick/base. I have all weapon and targeting controls on the stick (right hand only) and the few left over I need is easily within range on the base while still using the thumb throttle. I personaly use the hat as an extra 4 controls instead of 'look around', but thats preference of the user. Its 'capable' of 8 directions, but in practice you can only really get 4 out of it. Twist handle is your 3rd dimension, Roll, which can help you turn faster and control your ships profile. Rapid fire trigger... Its sensitive alright, it takes less motion to pull it all the way then other triggers. But in FS where you just hold it down it is kinda useless.
As LordMelvin said, the grip is just perfect. The only thing you should have to move around is your thumb, and button 2 (the one kinda on the side) is just in a good spot for resting position, and the hat/top keys should be well within your thumbs range of motion. The outside 3 fingers should never have to move. Twist, turn, doesnt matter, its a comfortable grip and they should stay in one spot the whole time.
The 3D Pro is the best cheap-end joystick. There are many better then it (for much more money), but dont go cheaper just to save a buck, you'll regret it later.
Thanks for the advice. It's always good to have options. The joystick has been ordered now, but if it fails for whatever reason, alternatives are good to know. It sounds good. I too would not want to squander those buttons on looking around. This is a battlefield, not a leisurely flight sim! :)
That Saitek X52 is an expensive thing. If it were the only joystick on Earth, I'd buy it in order to continue playing, but otherwise, no, at current prices. However, in the interest of gaining knowledge on the subject of joysticks, would you be able to tell me what's so special about it?
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Some thoughts if you haven't already gotten the 3D Pro:
(1) Can you buy something from amazon.com (thereby taking advantage of the weak U.S. dollar (http://www.xe.com/ucc/) ;)) and have it shipped to the UK? Might be cheaper then getting something from amazon.co.uk, with the exception of the Extreme 3D Pro, which currently is out-of-stock at amazon.com.
(2) You might want to consider the CH Products joysticks (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/joysticks.html), which are more expensive than the 3D Pro (although within your stated price range if you get one from amazon.com) but have an excellent reputation for build quality and customer service. There's a comparison of the three different sticks here (http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_014a.html), and reviews on Amazon and elsewhere.
I use the Flightstick Pro (the Combatstick and Fighterstick are too big for my hands) either with the keyboard or with the Pro Throttle.
There's also a comparison of the Saitek x52 and the Fighterstick/Pro Throttle HOTAS here (http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ch_products_saitek_x52_review/) (which is still useful information if you're just considering getting a stick without a throttle), and there are reviews on the individual sticks from the CH Products joysticks link above.
EDIT: if you've already gotten the 3D Pro, then never mind. As Kyad said, it's a very good cheap joystick, but it's still a cheap joystick, and generally, you get what you pay for. That said, a lot of people around here like the 3D Pro.
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Some thoughts if you haven't already gotten the 3D Pro:
(1) Can you buy something from amazon.com (thereby taking advantage of the weak U.S. dollar (http://www.xe.com/ucc/) ;)) and have it shipped to the UK? Might be cheaper then getting something from amazon.co.uk, with the exception of the Extreme 3D Pro, which currently is out-of-stock at amazon.com.
(2) You might want to consider the CH Products joysticks (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/joysticks.html), which are more expensive than the 3D Pro (although within your stated price range if you get one from amazon.com) but have an excellent reputation for build quality and customer service. There's a comparison of the three different sticks here (http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_014a.html), and reviews on Amazon and elsewhere.
I use the Flightstick Pro (the Combatstick and Fighterstick are too big for my hands) either with the keyboard or with the Pro Throttle.
There's also a comparison of the Saitek x52 and the Fighterstick/Pro Throttle HOTAS here (http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ch_products_saitek_x52_review/) (which is still useful information if you're just considering getting a stick without a throttle), and there are reviews on the individual sticks from the CH Products joysticks link above.
EDIT: if you've already gotten the 3D Pro, then never mind. As Kyad said, it's a very good cheap joystick, but it's still a cheap joystick, and generally, you get what you pay for. That said, a lot of people around here like the 3D Pro.
I've already ordered the stick, but as I said above, it's good to have other options if this stick is no good to me for some reason. I have no idea if you can order stuff from abroad and ship over. I would have thought anyone willing to do overseas shipping would show up on Amazon UK, with a price in £s. I know I've seen things on there being shipped from other countries before, but I'm not sure if I've ever seen anything from the US, I've seen something from Germany I remember for some reason. With games in the past it's been moot due to regionalisation.
It's good to know that stick has it's proponents here. Since this is the game I'm buying it for.
I hadn't thought about sticks being too big for hands. It's hard to tell from pictures how big it will be.
Thanks for the advice, it may prove useful if I don't like this stick. Hopefully it won't come to that.
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Thanks for the advice. It's always good to have options. The joystick has been ordered now, but if it fails for whatever reason, alternatives are good to know. It sounds good. I too would not want to squander those buttons on looking around. This is a battlefield, not a leisurely flight sim! :)
That Saitek X52 is an expensive thing. If it were the only joystick on Earth, I'd buy it in order to continue playing, but otherwise, no, at current prices. However, in the interest of gaining knowledge on the subject of joysticks, would you be able to tell me what's so special about it?
It's the "I want a really nice joystick, but I don't want to put out several hundred for it" joystick (fills the gap between the $30-50 joysticks and the $300 joysticks).
You might want to consider the CH Products joysticks (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/joysticks.html), which are more expensive than the 3D Pro (although within your stated price range if you get one from amazon.com) but have an excellent reputation for build quality and customer service. There's a comparison of the three different sticks here (http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_014a.html), and reviews on Amazon and elsewhere.
I use the Flightstick Pro (the Combatstick and Fighterstick are too big for my hands) either with the keyboard or with the Pro Throttle.
Ya, I've got the Pro Throttle, CH makes really good stuff, and they last forever. I've got an old tan and black 2-button CH FlightStick from back in the day of gameport and manual calibration, as far as I know it still works :D Such a shame they cost so much, or I would get one, combine it with the throttle via their software and have HOTAS for FSO.
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It's the "I want a really nice joystick, but I don't want to put out several hundred for it" joystick (fills the gap between the $30-50 joysticks and the $300 joysticks).
What's the attraction of the super expensive joysticks? It's a new concept to me the idea of such expensive gameplay tools. Would they be designed to simulate the controls of a real aircraft or something like that?
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You know, I said such expensive gaming tools was a new concept for me. Well, maybe not quite...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEP_Pimmgbg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEP_Pimmgbg)
Ah, that would have been a dream come true for me when I was growing up...
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I have no idea if you can order stuff from abroad and ship over.
Amazon.com gladly accepts orders from all around the globe.
Shipping rates/times to Europe here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=596194).
I would have thought anyone willing to do overseas shipping would show up on Amazon UK, with a price in £s.
Nope, I don't think it works that way in general. You have to go to the original seller's website and see where they're willing to ship and how much it'll cost for them to ship it there.
I hadn't thought about sticks being too big for hands. It's hard to tell from pictures how big it will be.
That's part of what reviews are for (and that's how I found out). :)
It's the "I want a really nice joystick, but I don't want to put out several hundred for it" joystick (fills the gap between the $30-50 joysticks and the $300 joysticks).
$300? What stick costs that much? The CH sticks are generally somewhere between $60 and $100 depending on which stick and which day (seriously, prices can fluctuate from day to day on Amazon, dunno why), and things like the Thrustmaster Cougar (exact F-16 replica) with all the mods or something equivalent can go for near $1,000, but I don't know of anything in between.
What's the attraction of the super expensive joysticks? It's a new concept to me the idea of such expensive gameplay tools. Would they be designed to simulate the controls of a real aircraft or something like that?
Some very expensive ones, like the ultra-high-end Thrustmaster sticks, are intended to be exact replicas, although those ones in particular are known for having shoddy parts and requiring lots of expensive modding.
The CH sticks last for years, even over a decade, and still work perfectly. The reviews I mentioned before will tell you more. Here's an example from the x52/CH HOTAS review I mentioned:
When I installed the CH FighterStick Pro, I just FLEW. There are no dead spots, no sensitive areas, no flakey hat switches. It just works and it does so correctly from the start.
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It's the "I want a really nice joystick, but I don't want to put out several hundred for it" joystick (fills the gap between the $30-50 joysticks and the $300 joysticks).
What's the attraction of the super expensive joysticks? It's a new concept to me the idea of such expensive gameplay tools. Would they be designed to simulate the controls of a real aircraft or something like that?
Ya actually, they are designed to be as 'realistic' as possible, its one of the major selling points. They also use better parts, (but not $250 worth of better parts). Some of them have adjustable grips and the like.
If you look at Saitek's site for example, they don't want you to just buy the joystick and throttle, they want you to get rudders, display panels, and whatever else they say should go with it too. Its all about realism.
@jr18 Will this do an an example? (http://store.gameshark.com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=4738&idCategory=312)
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Logitech's budget sticks are notorious for having very variable quality. Some go bad within warranty, some just outside it, while some keep working adequately for years.
Every logitech stick I have personally tried, however, has failed me miserably. Then I moved to Saitek, went through two Cyborg Evo sticks which, while the sensors (potentiometres) were much better than those Logitech used, also started to go bad and in addition the build quality was quite weak which lead to destruction of index finger trigger on one of the sticks.
Currently I am using a Saitek X52 HOTAS controller, and while it is on paper an excellent controller you might want to stay away of it, at least if it is the basic version with blue trim. If you can get X52Pro at acceptable price, that might be better, but the X52 has at least the following issues:
-inaccurate centering mechanism that leaves a bit of "play" near deadzone, leading to difficult handling right at the centre zone (fixable by removing the gimbal spring, though leads to stick becoming completely free-moving with no centering forces)
-inaccurate twist handle centering mechanism that can make the stick continuously twist rudder to one side or the other (fixable by removing the twist handle spring, requires opening up the handle, be careful with the wires)
-bad ergonomics (arguable); especially the pinkie switch at the joystick itself makes it almost impossible to properly grip the stick and leads to tension in your right hand
-bad design of X/Y axes on the joystick - the Hall effect sensors' placement results in huge hardware deadzone with the original design as well as non-linear raw response from the stick axes.
*deadzone is always bad
*non-linear raw input is bad; you should always make sure that when you slowly move joystick from one side to other, the cursor's speed through the little box remains as constant as possible. Not so with default X52 - it's exponential instead, meaning the cursor moves a little on the center zone and moves FAST to the edges when you move the stick beyond 50% deflection
*can be fixed with a modification to the magnet placement in relation to the Hall effect sensors. Has its problems, but overall results in a better controller.
-bad overall design of several aspects:
*wiring; the wires used by saitek are quite stiff and prone to wearing and tearing. I have had several wires severed in my throttle unit as a result of repeated back and forth movement; while possible to fix as they occur, they are extremely annoying and require some hand-eye co-ordination skills
*wiring locations - on the stick itself there is quite a bit of loose on the wires leading to the handle of the joystick, which can lead to them getting chafed and worn and eventually cut. Can be prevented by wrapping the wire bundle with electrical tape before this occurs.
*PS/2 connector between the throttle and joystick unit is prone to bad contact, leading to momentary loss of connection between throttle and stick. This would otherwise be quite harmless, except every time it happens, the joystick's centering resets on the position it happens to be at. That means if stick is deflected, that position becomes the center of the axes that were deflected. This is a horrible pain in the arse, as you then need to manually re-center the stick again by detaching the PS/2 cable and re-inserting it while joystick is at central position. At best this gives you several seconds of lack of control, and ad worst it can lead to you stalling out of the sky and crashing, or getting shot down, or whatever depending on game you are playing, but it won't be good.
Most of these problems would be solved by Saitek using some common sense and higher quality of wires.
...that said, it is a decent controller with good feature set, good programmability and, depending how demanding you are and how good an unit you happen to receive, will likely give you good years of use. You should just be aware of these possible issues you might experience with it, before you buy it.
The X-52Pro on the other hand apparently has several of these problems solved, such as the linear response/deadzone issue, and it also has programmable MFD (multi-function display) which the standard blue X52 does not have; the MFD in it is a waste of space and utility room, only thing it does is glow in the dark and show what profile you have selected. Oh, and it has a stop watch utility, I guess you can use that if you want to do some navigation or pattern flying.
Also note that in general joystick quality has hugely degraded from the late 90's. Currently, pretty much only CH Products and Thrustmaster's high-end products are the joysticks where you can count on the quality of electronics component remaining properly good for a decent period of time. With Saitek, Logitech, and other budget manufacturers you pretty much get what you pay for - components whose quality control is not always exactly reliable, and can lead to problems such as discontinous response curves, spiking of the axes, or permanently faulty calibration. With some models, you can technically replace some components (potentiometres, namely); with others you'll be stuck with RMA hassle or just getting a new stick and tossing the old malfunctioning one at the back of some closet or something.
Overall, I would recommend staying well away from Logitech Attack 3, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and especially Force 3D Pro.
I have also had bad experience with Logitech-manufactured stick called Wingman Force 3D, which is very similar to Force 3D Pro except carries the Wingman brand, for absolutely no merit of its own.
Also stay away from Saitek AV8R controllers. Bad build quality, bad ergonomics, not worth it at all.
In fact, what I would recommend looking at most for a budget/medium range stick is Thrustmaster T-Flight HOTAS (with separable throttle) and T-Flight joystick (with integrated throttle), as well as Thrustmaster T.16000M. While I have not had personal experience with these sticks, they are built by Thrustmaster which is a company of great renown regarding gaming peripherals (Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar and Warthog are pretty much the best ones you can get I think).
They can't be worse than Logitech and Saitek's budget stick offerings.
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Oh boo, you're the only one I ever hear say anything bad about the 3D Pro, tons of people here use it an like it. Perhaps you're too picky.
And yes, the thrust master CAN be worse and has been claimed as such in other joystick threads.
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@jr18 Will this do an an example? (http://store.gameshark.com/viewItem.asp?idProduct=4738&idCategory=312)
Oh, yeah, I forgot about those.
Logitech's budget sticks are notorious for having very variable quality. Some go bad within warranty, some just outside it, while some keep working adequately for years.
Yup, which as HT mentioned, indicates poor quality control on Logitech's part (or maybe even that Logitech simply doesn't care about quality variation in its products). This variation came across clearly in the reviews on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Extreme-Joystick-Silver-Black/product-reviews/B00009OY9U/).
And yes, the thrust master CAN be worse and has been claimed as such in other joystick threads.
Yup, here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=78751.0) for example.
There's a comparison of the major brands from a thread in the (totally unbiased :D) CH Hangar forums here (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?4354-Fighterstick-Replacement-For-X52-Stick&p=27793#post27793).
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Oh boo, you're the only one I ever hear say anything bad about the 3D Pro, tons of people here use it an like it. Perhaps you're too picky.
Nope, it's more likely that the games I play require extremely accurate control. Namely, IL-2 Sturmovik.
A joystick with spiking axis is impossible to use there considering the accuracy required to fire effectively. Other flight simulators also suffer from any anomalous behaviour.
I went through three Logitech sticks with same general build and sensor components. Exactly same looking stuff inside the sticks. All three failed in exactly the same fashion - spiking on the axes, and even gaps through which the cursor would jump.
You can call me picky but then you'll also have to acknowledge that the joysticks were impossible to use for the purpose I wanted to use them in. :p
And yes, the thrust master CAN be worse and has been claimed as such in other joystick threads.
I am unfamiliar with these reviews as well as unfamiliar with the thrustmaster budget sticks personally. I expect that they probably share some of the issues with other budget sticks, mainly regarding centering system which is easily solved in most controllers by simply removing the springs anyway.
Honestly, who needs the centering spring tension anyway? It is an utterly fake way of doing things. You can feel the stick position with your hands, and you can see what your aircraft/vehicle is doing... There is no spring tension in traditional aircraft controls anyway; when the aircraft is stationary you can move the stick around freely. When I remove the springs, that is what I get - a freely moving controller without a "catch" in the middle that I end up fighting with.
Properly functional force feedback would be ideal as it would simulate the centering of the stick by aerodynamic forces, but accurate enough FFB is very hard to do well, and I'll rather take no centering forces at all than ****ty spring tension or ****ty force feedback.
I really doubt that the actual electronics in Thrustmaster budget sticks is worse than that in Logitech budget sticks, but if you have some review links, please do post them here as they will be relevant to the topic anyway.
EDIT: Read Sushi's statement about the large deadzone in the T-Flight HOTAS. Right now I don't remember if the Logitech sticks exhibited significant deadzone (other problems were more obvious and alarming). Are there any similar reports of the T.16000M? Supposedly it uses better sensors of some type. Not sure if Hall effect sensor, optical, or something else.
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Oh boo, you're the only one I ever hear say anything bad about the 3D Pro, tons of people here use it an like it. Perhaps you're too picky.
Nope, it's more likely that the games I play require extremely accurate control. Namely, IL-2 Sturmovik.
A joystick with spiking axis is impossible to use there considering the accuracy required to fire effectively. Other flight simulators also suffer from any anomalous behaviour.
I went through three Logitech sticks with same general build and sensor components. Exactly same looking stuff inside the sticks. All three failed in exactly the same fashion - spiking on the axes, and even gaps through which the cursor would jump.
You can call me picky but then you'll also have to acknowledge that the joysticks were impossible to use for the purpose I wanted to use them in. :p
Fair enough, FS2 isnt the most precision demanding game in existence.
And yes, the thrust master CAN be worse and has been claimed as such in other joystick threads.
I am unfamiliar with these reviews as well as unfamiliar with the thrustmaster budget sticks personally. I expect that they probably share some of the issues with other budget sticks, mainly regarding centering system which is easily solved in most controllers by simply removing the springs anyway.
Honestly, who needs the centering spring tension anyway? It is an utterly fake way of doing things. You can feel the stick position with your hands, and you can see what your aircraft/vehicle is doing... There is no spring tension in traditional aircraft controls anyway; when the aircraft is stationary you can move the stick around freely. When I remove the springs, that is what I get - a freely moving controller without a "catch" in the middle that I end up fighting with.
Which reminds me, I need to get around to removing the spring in my 3D Pro...
I really doubt that the actual electronics in Thrustmaster budget sticks is worse than that in Logitech budget sticks, but if you have some review links, please do post them here as they will be relevant to the topic anyway.
Nope, just user comments. Personaly, I rank those higher, and the 3D Pro is relatively high in public favor for a budget stick ($40 and under mark).
And I (unlike most people) have 3 different stores I can walk in to buy joysticks of all different price ranges, they're even out on display :D If it breaks, I can get a replacement within hours, so it is less of a concern for me.
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Burn for that comment! The Attack 3 is a horrible horrible joystick. (I should know, I've got 2) No roll, no hat, 'righty/lefty' handle and base with an uncomfortable grip. Worth a lot less then just $10 under the 3D Pro.
Don't need roll, nor a hat, and the handle is the same both ways...
As for uncomfortable grips... I've yet to have an issue... (it's more a personal thing anyhow)
Also, worth a lot less THAN just 10$
Not then...
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Properly functional force feedback would be ideal as it would simulate the centering of the stick by aerodynamic forces.
While this is fine on older planes (like in IL-2), on modern fighters it's actually unrealistic (or at least in F-16). Fly-by-wire system on F-16 doesn't have FF (you get an audible warning when you're going to stall though). At least, that's what they told me on FreeFalcon forums (it's a very realistic F-16 flightsim, many players are actual fighter pilots).
My advise is, when you don't need FF and have a lot of money, go with CH. Alternatively, you could look for a good deal on an auction (they're so sturdy that you don't need to worry about buying an used device), which is what I did, getting the whole HOTAS for what amount to 180$ (500 zloty. Normally, you could barely a single part of the 3-part set for this, at least going by manufacturer's prices).
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I can concur with Herra on the electronics quality of Logitech's older sticks, at least. I had a Wingman Force 3D that, after maybe two years of fairly-light usage, experienced that same crazy axis-spiking, especially on the twist. Meanwhile, my ancient and much-loved MS Sidewinder 3D Pro (the real 3D Pro :D) is still going strong, probably about 15 years after I first got my hands on it. I currently use a Cyborg Evo for FS, which has both its high and low points, one of the latter being that it's fairly large for my hands.
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Burn for that comment! The Attack 3 is a horrible horrible joystick. (I should know, I've got 2) No roll, no hat, 'righty/lefty' handle and base with an uncomfortable grip. Worth a lot less then just $10 under the 3D Pro.
Don't need roll, nor a hat, and the handle is the same both ways...
As for uncomfortable grips... I've yet to have an issue... (it's more a personal thing anyhow)
Also, worth a lot less THAN just 10$
Not then...
I forgot to mention how the sensors are horrid, but I think Herra covered that for me. If the extreme 3D pro is bad, the attack 3 is abysmal. Last time I tried it, I couldnt even get the full turn speed of a fighter with an attack 3, with full sensitivity and no deadzone, with the spring out.
Yes I know the handle is the same both ways, that's why its a righty/lefty stick, they make it so its 'usable' both ways. You lose half your base keys that way. The hat is just extra keys. Also, with the lesser total key count on the joystick, you're forced to hunt 'n' peck at the keyboard, losing control with the throttle during that time (note: throttle and roll are 2 very big advantages to the joystick). And roll is very very important in controlling turns, be it in a flight sim or freespace. Even more so on ships with wide gunpoints or when attacking a target with a thin profile. Like people keep claiming with FF, once you can use roll you'll never want to go back.
Keep in mind none of these are assumptions. I actually have them (one with and one without the spring) to compare.
Also, being a grammar nazi does not help any argument.
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Don't need roll, nor a hat, and the handle is the same both ways...
Don't need roll...
Don't need roll.
:nervous:
:eek2:
:wtf:
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Yeah, I was wondering about that, too, actually. Roll is invaluable defensively (as part of dodging missiles and enemy fire) and supposedly also useful offensively (as part of lining up targets) although I don't have much experience with using it for that.
EDIT: Because I like citing my sources (it's in section 6.0):
Double Turns
Most pilots just use the left and right controls on the keyboard or joystick, but forget about the 'rotation' controls. The 'rotation' controls make you ship rotate about it's central axis (you don't turn, you rotate.) Now, combine this with normal turns, and you have a way to evade almost all enemy primary fire, and a great way to evade enemy missiles. Not only is it a good defensive measure, it can also help you line up more agile targets.
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I played FreeSpace without roll for years
Hell, I didn't know I could roll until six months ago really.
Also, the way I do roll now is by pushing and holding one of the buttons. I don't use it often, but you can roll if you're willing to compromise with the situation at hand (pun intended!)
So nuuwh (that's my sticking my tongue at you sound)
However, I never really noticed with sensitivity. It seemed to do as it was supposed to...
Ah well. I like my Logitech Attack 3. It was cheap, and it works for all the games I use it for
"Also, being a grammar nazi does not help any argument."
Wasn't aware we were arguing... dammit. I always miss these memo's
(I didn't know we were in seriousness. I was just giving my experience in comparison to yours. That's a shame though, Logitech has never failed me... and yet it seems to hate everyone else...)
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It annoys me that companies still use pots and resistance strips in their sticks; My Sidewinder 3D Pro hasn't skipped a beat since I bought it - The saturn ring and optical sensor setup still works brilliantly and since I got the DigitalOverdrive to USB convertor from sickone over at the descentbb it's been sharp as ever!
That stick was really ahead of its time; I do want to replace it but I've not seen a single stick that could take the abuse this stick has. I really hate sticks that use gimbals as they're either sprung too softly or it's hard to get accurate diagonals, and the saitek center-spring thing just wears out that stupid plastic hat. Even my brother's ridiculously expensive TM HOTAS Mk1 is having issues now (It's made of metal but stuff is still breaking off it, and the pots are completely shot!)
If only Microsoft still made Sidewinder sticks!
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...That's a shame though, Logitech has never failed me... and yet it seems to hate everyone else...
It's never failed me either. Heck, I wouldn't have upgraded from my old Logitech Wingman (The one I used to play Wing Commander 2, back in the nineties - Two axis plus a throttle, two buttons, manual calibration dials on the base so you could try to fix what your annoying kid sibling did to your settings...) if it wasn't for the combination of not having a gameport connection on my new rig and the bit of the cord that the (presumed) mouse got to a couple years back.
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If only Microsoft still made Sidewinder sticks!
Amen. I need to pick up a backup 3D Pro at some point, just in case mine finally bites the big one.
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(http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/3852/img20120113041808.jpg)
Someone find me a 15-pin to USB adapter. :D
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They do exist, but the 3D Pro won't work in its legitimate digital mode with them. For that you'd need the third-party adapter that someone in the Descent community cooked up.
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*snip*
Someone find me a 15-pin to USB adapter. :D
I've had one joystick for six years
What in the hell have you been doing to yours?
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*snip*
Someone find me a 15-pin to USB adapter. :D
I've had one joystick for six years
What in the hell have you been doing to yours?
Judging by the hardware on display, at least two of those look to date to the very early ninties. I know I picked up a wingman very similar to left-front one second hand and well used when I was still on a dollar-a-week allowance...
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*snip*
Someone find me a 15-pin to USB adapter. :D
I've had one joystick for six years
What in the hell have you been doing to yours?
:confused: They all work fine, just not on the comp I want to use them on.
The CH Flightstick (tan one) is a 2 button, the Logitech Wingman is a 2 button + throttle and more comfortable (Used to play Terminal Velocity with these), the interesting one to the top left has a horrible grip (made for way too small of hands), but it had more buttons. Then came the Sidewinder 3D Pro. That would have been the end of it, but its gameport. There are no 64-bit drivers for gameport.
Later came the Attack 3. It was ok... kinda... considering it was all I could afford. Thought I lost it at one point, it so I replaced it... only to find the first one again. Took the spring out of the 'old' one. Wanted a real throttle because I had games that would support multible controlers, got the USB Pro Throttle.
Eventualy got the Extreme 3D Pro, which I use now.
I also had, but can not find, a joystick that could be detached from the base (gyro sensing?) and had 2 triggers (index and middle fingers). Oh, and this:
(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/7884/img20120118032307.jpg)
Which I can not find drivers for to save my life even though I have Need For Speed II (The -real- NFS2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_p4BYHajAs&)) on the P4 box which does have a working gameport. :(
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Ah
Well generally, when someone has a large collection of a single product, one tends to believe that they're dead or useless
That clarifies that
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Which I can not find drivers for to save my life even though I have Need For Speed II (The -real- NFS2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_p4BYHajAs&)) on the P4 box which does have a working gameport. :(
That would be the first Hot Persuit, right? I've played that before, but I got most of my enjoyment on NFSIII - High Stakes. I was never that good at it, but it was quite fun, especially when I played online, as its web interface was quite modable. I too played using a wheel + foot pedals.
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Well, I'm looking for a joystick too. Twice I had and ocassion to buy something nice and twice, when I return to mall with money someone bought them :( :
cheaper:
http://tech.wp.pl/kat,1009779,title,Joystick-Tracer-TRJ-202-Black-Hawk,wid,11830597,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=1d9c3
more expensive (I had an ocasion to buy it at 80% discount but it was the last one from display and they lost the box with all cables, drivers and instruction :(((( )
http://saitek.com/uk/prod/x52pro.html
Bad for me is that all malls in my city are badly understocked after christmass/new year season and I don't like eBay ordering :(
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Which I can not find drivers for to save my life even though I have Need For Speed II (The -real- NFS2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_p4BYHajAs&)) on the P4 box which does have a working gameport. :(
That would be the first Hot Persuit, right? I've played that before, but I got most of my enjoyment on NFSIII - High Stakes. I was never that good at it, but it was quite fun, especially when I played online, as its web interface was quite modable. I too played using a wheel + foot pedals.
NFS3 HP was the first hot pursuit, NFS2 was just normal tracks. No cash earning, no detailing the cars, no cops. (Not to be confused with NFS HP II)
NFS II:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Ry-cE0u8Eh8/Ti95cJTTatI/AAAAAAAAFGo/7XwOiNq7s84/s1600/NFS+2+SE.jpg)
Well, I'm looking for a joystick too. Twice I had and ocassion to buy something nice and twice, when I return to mall with money someone bought them :( :
cheaper:
http://tech.wp.pl/kat,1009779,title,Joystick-Tracer-TRJ-202-Black-Hawk,wid,11830597,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=1d9c3
more expensive (I had an ocasion to buy it at 80% discount but it was the last one from display and they lost the box with all cables, drivers and instruction :(((( )
http://saitek.com/uk/prod/x52pro.html
Bad for me is that all malls in my city are badly understocked after christmass/new year season and I don't like eBay ordering :(
Try Amazon? They ship worldwide I think, and have a fair selection.
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Then came the Sidewinder 3D Pro. That would have been the end of it, but its gameport. There are no 64-bit drivers for gameport.
The person in the Descent community isn't making the converters himself anymore, but he has all of the schematics and requisite software available. If you have any experience with basic electronics and/or are willing to learn, it might not be too hard to piece one together yourself.
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Yeah, the new one is even easier to make because you don't need a programmer for an ATMega anymore - The teensy chip that it's based on can be programmed via the same USB port that it uses to send joystick data to the computer. I even got a firmware update from grendle to let the converter work in Win98 :lol:
Here's a link to the main topic - http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15526
If you don't want to make it yourself, it is worth checking over at descentbb now and then as it seems sometimes people do little production runs by themselves but that requires extreme patience. (I think I was waiting something like 5 years for koolbear's original run and it went through 5 or 6 different revisions in that time and then from an ATmega-based one which was a ***** to make to the current teensy-based version :) )
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I grabbed one of Grendel's original ones myself. (Holy crap, was it really six years ago?) He even had a little Pyro-GX outline etched onto the board. :D
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Yeah, the Pyro etch was a cool touch :D
I'm jealous! :P
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...That's a shame though, Logitech has never failed me... and yet it seems to hate everyone else...
It's never failed me either. Heck, I wouldn't have upgraded from my old Logitech Wingman (The one I used to play Wing Commander 2, back in the nineties - Two axis plus a throttle, two buttons, manual calibration dials on the base so you could try to fix what your annoying kid sibling did to your settings...) if it wasn't for the combination of not having a gameport connection on my new rig and the bit of the cord that the (presumed) mouse got to a couple years back.
Well LordMelvin, I have the joystick, but I have problems. You or anyone else can answer. I don't know how anyone can play anything approaching effectively with this stiff thing. It seems especially hard to go from side to side quickly. I've seen people mentioning taking the spring out. Did you take yours out? Also, how would I get the throttle thing to work, it doesn't for me, and I can't just push a button to bind it to something in the options. Oh, and does taking the spring out bring problems of it's own, I'm assuming it makes the joystick loose, but would it be too loose to sit on centre for instance? And if the recommendation is to remove the spring, I would welcome advice from anyone who has taken it out. Any help would be welcome please.
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Oh, this is the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro I'm talking about here.
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Advice on people's sensitivity and deadzone settings would be welcome too.
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Well LordMelvin, I have the joystick, but I have problems. You or anyone else can answer. I don't know how anyone can play anything approaching effectively with this stiff thing. It seems especially hard to go from side to side quickly. I've seen people mentioning taking the spring out. Did you take yours out? Also, how would I get the throttle thing to work, it doesn't for me, and I can't just push a button to bind it to something in the options. Oh, and does taking the spring out bring problems of it's own, I'm assuming it makes the joystick loose, but would it be too loose to sit on centre for instance? And if the recommendation is to remove the spring, I would welcome advice from anyone who has taken it out. Any help would be welcome please.
There's a throttle axis bind setting somewhere in the config mappings, though I'm currently in the middle of a couple processor-heavy things and can't dig through to exactly where, I'm afraid. I seem to recall it being fairly close to where I set rot-x to roll.
I never removed my spring - I like a little stiffness to my controls, but if (since) you don't I'd strongly suggest upping the x-sensitivity before going to hardware modifications. That, and go just practice maneuvering in a random tutorial mission - the difference between the arrow keys and a stick is pretty big, and takes getting used to.
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Well LordMelvin, I have the joystick, but I have problems. You or anyone else can answer. I don't know how anyone can play anything approaching effectively with this stiff thing. It seems especially hard to go from side to side quickly. I've seen people mentioning taking the spring out. Did you take yours out? Also, how would I get the throttle thing to work, it doesn't for me, and I can't just push a button to bind it to something in the options. Oh, and does taking the spring out bring problems of it's own, I'm assuming it makes the joystick loose, but would it be too loose to sit on centre for instance? And if the recommendation is to remove the spring, I would welcome advice from anyone who has taken it out. Any help would be welcome please.
There's a throttle axis bind setting somewhere in the config mappings, though I'm currently in the middle of a couple processor-heavy things and can't dig through to exactly where, I'm afraid. I seem to recall it being fairly close to where I set rot-x to roll.
I never removed my spring - I like a little stiffness to my controls, but if (since) you don't I'd strongly suggest upping the x-sensitivity before going to hardware modifications. That, and go just practice maneuvering in a random tutorial mission - the difference between the arrow keys and a stick is pretty big, and takes getting used to.
I can't find the throttle bind. Would you be able to help me with that (or anyone else) when you are free? There's no rush, I don't know where you are, but it's midnight for me at the moment, so you can take all the time you want on that.
Sensitivity was already at maximum. However, I removed the deadzone entirely, and that seems to make life a lot easier. Without that in the middle it's practically eliminated that particular problem. I can make much finer adjustments now. I'm not sure, but I also don't think I need to drag the stick as far for maximum turning speed. I'll give getting used to the stiffness a shot. I was pathetic using the four arrows to begin with, it was only being starved of my favourite genre so long which made me persist with that. It reminds me of the rare occassions when I got hold of some stick on an arcade machine now. Much more workable.
I'm sure removal of the spring would void my warranty, so don't want to do that just yet. Besides, I'm much more confident of having some success now I changed the deadzone setting.
Oh, would you mind telling me what buttons you have set to what? It would be nice to have something as a basis to start off with.
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Well LordMelvin, I have the joystick, but I have problems. You or anyone else can answer. I don't know how anyone can play anything approaching effectively with this stiff thing. It seems especially hard to go from side to side quickly. I've seen people mentioning taking the spring out. Did you take yours out? Also, how would I get the throttle thing to work, it doesn't for me, and I can't just push a button to bind it to something in the options. Oh, and does taking the spring out bring problems of it's own, I'm assuming it makes the joystick loose, but would it be too loose to sit on centre for instance? And if the recommendation is to remove the spring, I would welcome advice from anyone who has taken it out. Any help would be welcome please.
There's a throttle axis bind setting somewhere in the config mappings, though I'm currently in the middle of a couple processor-heavy things and can't dig through to exactly where, I'm afraid. I seem to recall it being fairly close to where I set rot-x to roll.
I never removed my spring - I like a little stiffness to my controls, but if (since) you don't I'd strongly suggest upping the x-sensitivity before going to hardware modifications. That, and go just practice maneuvering in a random tutorial mission - the difference between the arrow keys and a stick is pretty big, and takes getting used to.
I can't find the throttle bind. Would you be able to help me with that (or anyone else) when you are free? There's no rush, I don't know where you are, but it's midnight for me at the moment, so you can take all the time you want on that.
Sensitivity was already at maximum. However, I removed the deadzone entirely, and that seems to make life a lot easier. Without that in the middle it's practically eliminated that particular problem. I can make much finer adjustments now. I'm not sure, but I also don't think I need to drag the stick as far for maximum turning speed. I'll give getting used to the stiffness a shot. I was pathetic using the four arrows to begin with, it was only being starved of my favourite genre so long which made me persist with that. It reminds me of the rare occassions when I got hold of some stick on an arcade machine now. Much more workable.
I'm sure removal of the spring would void my warranty, so don't want to do that just yet. Besides, I'm much more confident of having some success now I changed the deadzone setting.
Throttle bind is on the same page as the rest of the ship movement controls at the very bottom, the one you want is 'absolute throttle' (the speed will match the exact position of the throttle). The spring is the only thing holding the joystick center (besides your hand). If you remove it, it'll lean forward.
If you need ideas for bindings, heres mine. I'm sure others will share theirs even without your asking too. :p
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/7834/setupp.png)
I find it works well having all wep and the most commonly used targeting controls on one hand, it leaves you much less crippled if you do have to search for keys. Spend the time to mess with the controls, find something that feels natural because obviously in a fight you arent going to have time to spend looking.
Sensitivity: one down from max
Deadzone: one up from min
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Throttle bind is on the same page as the rest of the ship movement controls at the very bottom, the one you want is 'absolute throttle' (the speed will match the exact position of the throttle). The spring is the only thing holding the joystick center (besides your hand). If you remove it, it'll lean forward.
If you need ideas for bindings, heres mine. I'm sure others will share theirs even without your asking too. :p
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/7834/setupp.png)
I find it works well having all wep and the most commonly used targeting controls on one hand, it leaves you much less crippled if you do have to search for keys. Spend the time to mess with the controls, find something that feels natural because obviously in a fight you arent going to have time to spend looking.
Sensitivity: one down from max
Deadzone: one up from min
I found it. Thanks. One pilot profile down, 19 to go :)
That's a nice graphic. And yes, it would be nice if other people posted their settings, and why they chose them. It's too late at night now for me to seriously jump into trying to get a setup that I like, but it looks like everything's in place to do so now.
That throttle control will be most useful, as my current campaign is at a stage where we haven't discovered how to target Shivan ships yet, so no M button for me.
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I went through all of this myself last year when i decided to get a joystick.
Years ago when i first played Freespace i did it using only the keyboard and i remember being good enough at it. But after so many years, wanting to get back to Freespace, i found the keyboard very awkward. I could have given it a bit more time to get back into shape but the keyboard i have now has a different arrangement and lots more buttons on it and i don't like it. So i found Thrustmaster's "T.Flight Hotas X" in Argos(Ireland) for 36 euro and i went for it as that was about all i could spend on a stick at the time. It has a big throttle stick as well(removable) and 12 mapping buttons (+4 with the hat-left, right, up, down). It's a lot of fun to play with it but, yes, there is a big BUT....i bumped into accuracy problems. Self centering spring makes it very hard to move the crosshair with surgical precision, which so many times costed me bonus objectives in Freespace :banghead:
I tried and took it off, following QuantumDelta's suggestion and while it makes it a lot better, it has a big drawback - i end up with a loose stick that's constantly leaning forward, causing my ship to pitch endlessly, making straight flying practically impossible.
So i put the spring back in, i adjusted the resistance to minimum, deadzone form the game menu to min and sensitivity to max and just tried to get used to it. I just finished playing Freespace2 minutes ago and having played Fs1, Silent Threat, Silent Threat Reborn(amazing!!!) and Fs2 on both easy and medium i still grab the mouse sometimes if i need surgical precision targeting. :rolleyes:
Overall though it is a lot of fun playing with a joystick and if i had spent a considerable amount of money on my joystick i would have not accepted that lack of precision, but for 36 euro i can live with it. I know it's never gonna be as exact as the keyboard which you still need anyway for comm and other stuff like energy management, etc...
I hope you enjoy your new stick and let us know how you get on with it after you find your ideal mapping setup and get used to it.
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I went through all of this myself last year when i decided to get a joystick.
Years ago when i first played Freespace i did it using only the keyboard and i remember being good enough at it. But after so many years, wanting to get back to Freespace, i found the keyboard very awkward. I could have given it a bit more time to get back into shape but the keyboard i have now has a different arrangement and lots more buttons on it and i don't like it. So i found Thrustmaster's "T.Flight Hotas X" in Argos(Ireland) for 36 euro and i went for it as that was about all i could spend on a stick at the time. It has a big throttle stick as well(removable) and 12 mapping buttons (+4 with the hat-left, right, up, down). It's a lot of fun to play with it but, yes, there is a big BUT....i bumped into accuracy problems. Self centering spring makes it very hard to move the crosshair with surgical precision, which so many times costed me bonus objectives in Freespace :banghead:
I tried and took it off, following QuantumDelta's suggestion and while it makes it a lot better, it has a big drawback - i end up with a loose stick that's constantly leaning forward, causing my ship to pitch endlessly, making straight flying practically impossible.
So i put the spring back in, i adjusted the resistance to minimum, deadzone form the game menu to min and sensitivity to max and just tried to get used to it. I just finished playing Freespace2 minutes ago and having played Fs1, Silent Threat, Silent Threat Reborn(amazing!!!) and Fs2 on both easy and medium i still grab the mouse sometimes if i need surgical precision targeting. :rolleyes:
Overall though it is a lot of fun playing with a joystick and if i had spent a considerable amount of money on my joystick i would have not accepted that lack of precision, but for 36 euro i can live with it. I know it's never gonna be as exact as the keyboard which you still need anyway for comm and other stuff like energy management, etc...
I hope you enjoy your new stick and let us know how you get on with it after you find your ideal mapping setup and get used to it.
Oh, hello. Thanks for the post. My hand has got worse, so I haven't been able to try yet, but I will post back here if/when my hand heals and I try properly with the stick.
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Lorric is still off the active flight roster... :(
Keyboard only players please be careful. I've been an avid gamer all my life since the age of 4 and have never even had the slightest issue until now, and I am 28. Perhaps you'll get away with it if you don't play too often, but otherwise, I'd consider making a change. I didn't even get a month into my Freespace playing.
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RSIs are serious business. I hope you're seeking appropriate medical assistance.
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RSIs are serious business. I hope you're seeking appropriate medical assistance.
Hello Melvin. I hope to be able to tell you about how I get on with that joystick eventually. I went to see the doctor again today. And she still believes it's RSI, so I made my post, as I was wondering if it could be something else prior. It's spread across my hand and up my arm and is the same on the left hand and arm too now though not as bad. She says it's normal to suffer on the other side as well.
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Well, keyboard only users probably won't read this topic anyway since it's about a joystick, but I'm in pain all over now. Just about everywhere from the neck down. So whatever afflicts me clearly has nothing to do with repetitive strain or the keyboard being a bad thing. I expect it just started in that hand first because it was being worked the most. My feet, back, neck, wrists and shoulders are all giving me more trouble than my hands now.
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Sorry to hear it, hope you obtain the relevant medical treatment in the soonest possible timeframe and stuff.
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Sorry to hear it, hope you obtain the relevant medical treatment in the soonest possible timeframe and stuff.
Thanks LordMelvin :)
And I hope I can play with the joystick sometime...