Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Crybertrance on January 24, 2012, 10:50:02 am
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I know its too late, but I'll say it anyways..
I was just playing "The Blade Itself" and while I was facing the 3rd Corvette (after the Ania and Thas....?) and the Corvette constantly fired beams straight at me (down the launch bay, to be exact) Now I find it increasingly weird that the launch bays of ships like the Karuna and Solaris are directly in line of beam fire from Tev ships. Imagine a Raynor firing its frontal beam at the Karuna head-on. Since the armor plating is significantly less in that area (only an airlock?) It would be a significant weak-point in the structural integrity of the ship, that too, right in the wrong place! the FRONT of the ship!
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Rule of cool.
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Rule of cool.
Exactly, the only guys suffering from beam-into-fighterbay fire are pilots sitting in fighters and bombers which launch in the middle of such a beam.
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The fighterbay is not such a big target, and keep in mind that Karuna isn't designed for such warfare. Raynor firing it's front beam at a Karuna would gut it no matter what, by the way.
In fact, because it's a mostly AA/"anti guerilla" ship, so having the fighterbay protected by main guns and a fair amount of flaks (not to mention rather hefty side plating) is a rather good idea, since it'd protect if from bombers and gunships.
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The inspiration for the Karuna, the Omega from Babylon 5, did have very massive doors to protect their fighterbay. But in FS2 it would be a bit hard to do that and still use it as a fighterbay.
On the other hand, Spoon somehow managed to give the Challanger's main gun a door that opens up before firing, or by SEXP (I have no idea how it works, but I saw it work)... Would something like that also be possible for a hanger, either auto-opening when ships start, or triggered via SEXP to allow landings?
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The Phoenix Rising does that I believe.
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I confirm, the Phoniex Rising has animated door for his fighterbays.
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Doors have long been possible in FS but the rigging is a pain if you want sliding rather than rotating doors and requires the use of invisible objects. Then you have to trigger them.
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Actually, the problem is that there's no simple SEXP to open bay doors on a ship, they open only when a ship is launching or landing. Perhaps Steve-O will add doors to his new Hyperion, porting them to Karuna should be possible.
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Well, also, it really must be a pain for fighters launching/landing from/to a ship in combat to dodge the friendly mass driver/gauss gun bolts...
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Well, also, it really must be a pain for fighters launching/landing from/to a ship in combat to dodge the friendly mass driver/gauss gun bolts...
Strangely, they don't seem to do much damage when they hit (have been hit a few times) nothing like flying into shield piercing beams.
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Wouldn't it still be a significant structural weak-point? Airlock doors would have to be quite HUGE to be comparable to the armor-plating on the rest of the ship. If the doors were huge, it would contain more ummm.. mass? It would require substantial energy and time to open and close repeatedly, not to mention an event of a door failure, which would leave the entire ship wide open (excuse the pun)
Well, also, it really must be a pain for fighters launching/landing from/to a ship in combat to dodge the friendly mass driver/gauss gun bolts...
Another good point, this would make take-offs and landings during engagements illogical, 'cuz the ships would be blasted by friendly fire, but I do find I weird that those powerful guass cannons which supposedly are cruiser/corvette killers, do no/little damage to fighters? (Im looking at you, Mars)
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The reason mass driver do next to no damage to fighters is probably the shields. Torpedoes have the same problem. The Helios does 6800 damage to hulls, but only 136 to shields. Likewise, the Karuna's mass drivers do 300 damage to shields, but 1200 to hulls. Apocalyses do only 50 damage to shields, but 500 against hulls.
For some reason, the Narayana's do double that. One would think the extra fuel required to increase the range would cut down on the payload.
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For some reason, the Narayana's do double that. One would think the extra fuel required to increase the range would cut down on the payload.
Try comparing sizes of Apocalypse missiles fired by Karuna, Narayana and Solaris. :p
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For some reason, the Narayana's do double that. One would think the extra fuel required to increase the range would cut down on the payload.
Try comparing sizes of Apocalypse missiles fired by Karuna, Narayana and Solaris. :p
No way O_O I've never noticed that.
Apparently you guys thought of everything.
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For some reason, the Narayana's do double that. One would think the extra fuel required to increase the range would cut down on the payload.
Try comparing sizes of Apocalypse missiles fired by Karuna, Narayana and Solaris. :p
:wtf: I'd think you guys used the same base for all torpedoes...
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The reason mass driver do next to no damage to fighters is probably the shields. Torpedoes have the same problem. The Helios does 6800 damage to hulls, but only 136 to shields. Likewise, the Karuna's mass drivers do 300 damage to shields, but 1200 to hulls. Apocalyses do only 50 damage to shields, but 500 against hulls.
For some reason, the Narayana's do double that. One would think the extra fuel required to increase the range would cut down on the payload.
It just dawned on me, what if the GTVA developed some kind of sheiding system for Cap-ships... they would basically be invulnerable to UEF cap-ship attack!
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I wouldn't count on anyone developing capship shields. It seems to be a problem even for the Shivans, since they don't shield everything they have. Considering their losses to GTVA bombers, seems to me they'd want to if they could.
And why would the GTVA want to develop them anyway? Beams pierce shields, so they're nearly useless against Shivans. A capship shield would use a spectacular amount of power that would only be useful against bombers and UEF weapons (a war they're winning handily anyway). They'd be better off using the power on more beam cannons.
Try comparing sizes of Apocalypse missiles fired by Karuna, Narayana and Solaris. :p
I never noticed that. Ok then, disregard.
There's probably a reason why they don't all use the Narayana's. Space considerations or something like that.
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Why are all the torpedoes for the different ships called the same anyway?
If they have different stats and sizes, shouldn't they have different names also? At the very least a size designator, version number or the payload, rather than a #<shipclass> at the end of the name.
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It seems to be a problem even for the Shivans, since they don't shield everything they have. Considering their losses to GTVA bombers, seems to me they'd want to if they could.
Firstly, we never EVER knew the full extent of the Shivan armada, let alone their combat technology. It would be foolish to think that the SJ Sathanas was their flagship in anyway (at the end of FS2, they appeared to be like mere cruisers [considering their numbers]). Also, even the Shivans must have thought it waste to deploy any remotely considerable advanced tech to battle the Tevs 'cause they were winning the war anyways (withe ease). So, we never really know if they actually developed shield tech (maybe we would if FS3 came out).
A capship shield would use a spectacular amount of power that would only be useful against bombers and UEF weapons (a war they're winning handily anyway).
"A war they're winning handily anyway"...... Ummmm, I don't think that they are that well off, The GTD Hood was nearly destroyed by the UED Eris (In Asteria, I believe), The GTD Carthage by the Wargods (If that other damn destroyer didn't show up). They were also major command cruisers. Even the Serkr group was badly damaged by the UEF. Even that Raynor destroyer during the Blitz would have been destroyed if it did not have those "fast jump drives". I believe the GTVA would greatly appreciate if they could prevent this damage to their major battleships.
Also, I think you are underestimating the power of UEF bombers, do you forget, the amount of damage a squadron of Durgas or Vajdhadras can do? Theyd tear down a Diomedes Cruiser in seconds... :shaking:
Why are all the torpedoes for the different ships called the same anyway?
If they have different stats and sizes, shouldn't they have different names also? At the very least a size designator, version number or the payload, rather than a #<shipclass> at the end of the name.
Yeah, I agree, maybe a size designator atleast...
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If capship shields are developed, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that they would use the same damage factor as fighter shields, but that's not necessarily true. Besides, in BP capships do have shields inside the hull.
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UEF bombers are a threat, yes, but they're certainly not unkillable. The 12th Shuhudune heavy strike (Collateral Damage), composed of 2 Durgas and 8 Uriels, got torn to shreds by Serkr Team in less than a minute, did no significant damage, and Serkr had no fighter cover whatsoever. And they don't kill a Diomedes that quickly. In Aristeia, even after I call in the Durgas to take out the Medea, if I don't disable her beam cannons, she'll typically destroy one of the frigates before the 3 bombers can do their thing.
And even if the UEF have great bombers (the new Lapith is insane), how many do they have? And how to deploy them when their capships get gutted left and right? Deploying a bomber strike isn't as simple as giving them a target and sending them on their way.
You mention the Atreus in Darkest Hour would have been destroyed without its modified drives. Probably true. But would Steele have committed it if he wasn't sure it could disengage at a moment's notice? Very doubtful.
The Carthage fell into Calder's trap because it was just bait for Steele's even bigger trap. If the Imperieuse hadn't been available for relief, then Steele wouldn't have allowed the UEF to get information to form a plan of attack. The source that gave the UEF Lopez' psych profile and battlegroup engagement area had already been turned by that point.
Sure, shields would be nice to have, but why would the GTVA waste resources on developing something which is mostly useless against their primary enemy: the Shivans? If Byrne's project and/or the Fedayeen can't turn the war around somehow, a total GTVA victory is a foregone conclusion. There's no point whatsoever in creating something that will be pretty much obsolete once the current conflict is won.
The point I was making about the Shivans is that if they had such an easy time shielding their capitals, why is the Lucifer the only ship equipped with them? I'm not saying they might not have other shielded ships, I'm just saying even they have limitations, and since they're still massively more advanced than the GTVA, I don't see the GTVA outfitting their Raynors and Titans with shields anytime soon.
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The GTVA has lost a fair number of corvettes yes, but it's more akin to the UEF losing a Sanctus than a Karuna
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It is true that the GTVA in average gets much more heavily damaged warships than the UEF. It's just that the GTVA has magic Anemois to repair them in days, while the UEF only have drydocks to repair them in weeks. So at the end, the GTVA still has the advantage.
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well, everytime i played the mission, the bombers wasted the medea in about 10-20 secs ... which speaks for a totally sick damage output. Btw it helps in that mission to call in an addtional wing of uhlans to distract the medeas guns a bit. Ofcourse the UEF has only a few of em, but they kick ass. About the rest: The war doesnt go THAT well for the GTVA. Even though the GTVA can afford the losses way more easily than the UEF, they still lost a bunch corvettes and cruisers so far and 2 Hecate class destroyers got nearly trashed. Ofcourse the GTVA still stands way better than the UEF, but its not a easy victory for em, if they win. All that just leads to one big questions (once again): What the hell is that "Project"?
Doesn't matter if the tevs lose more corvettes, as WiH itself states, post Blitz the UEF is only a few months from total logistical collapse. The noose is fit snugly around the UEF's neck at this point. All Steele has to do is wait for the drop.
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GTVA has magic Anemois to repair them in days, while the UEF only have drydocks to repair them in weeks.
Anemois can repair ships yes, but as far as I know it has never been stated how quick or efficient it is COMPARED to a drydock.
Pure logic would dictate that a stationary, dedicated drydock still beats any Anemoi in efficiency. Anemoi's are missing a drydock in the first place. So if a repair requires you to park a corvette next to an Anemoi within a drydock, you'd have to set up that drydock first which takes up valuable time. Assuming an Anemoi can even set it up at all.
The only scenario where I see Anemoi being more efficient, is when it is only required to ship out and install spare parts for field repairs. anything that can be installed on the move with little to no downtime. But if a ship is badly damaged, engines are shot, hull has been breached, you need a drydock to fix those up. A drydock Anemoi does not have readily available at the very least.
Repairing small ships like fighters and bombers, now that's what an Anemoi can and probably does extremely well. If an Anemoi could house a cruiser within, it could repair them while on the move, anywhere anytime. Alas a cruiser cannot enter an Anemoi, requiring an external drydock for the most serious repairs.
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And where would that statement be?
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In Aristeia, even after I call in the Durgas to take out the Medea, if I don't disable her beam cannons, she'll typically destroy one of the frigates before the 3 bombers can do their thing.
Umm.. I play on Hard and EVERY time I've played, I've only deployed the Heavy bombers and some Ulhans to take care of the Medea... While I just waited by the Indus to watch the fireworks :nono:. They ALWAYS destroy the Medea in MAX 15 secs! Without losing any frigates (Mind you they are always below 15% health)
And even if the UEF have great bombers (the new Lapith is insane), how many do they have? And how to deploy them when their capships get gutted left and right? Deploying a bomber strike isn't as simple as giving them a target and sending them on their way.
The bombers could inflict heavy damage if they adopted the "run and gun" style of the GTVA. However that seems unlikely due to the logistical condition of the UEF.
well, everytime i played the mission, the bombers wasted the medea in about 10-20 secs ... which speaks for a totally sick damage output. Btw it helps in that mission to call in an addtional wing of uhlans to distract the medeas guns a bit. Ofcourse the UEF has only a few of em, but they kick ass. About the rest: The war doesnt go THAT well for the GTVA. Even though the GTVA can afford the losses way more easily than the UEF, they still lost a bunch corvettes and cruisers so far and 2 Hecate class destroyers got nearly trashed. Ofcourse the GTVA still stands way better than the UEF, but its not a easy victory for em, if they win. All that just leads to one big questions (once again): What the hell is that "Project"?
Exactly my point, even though a victory for the GTVA would be imminent, but its sure as hell not absolute... I mean in the game so far, the UEF have only lost a couple of cruisers and 4 frigates 3 frigates (the Indus survives), where as the GTVA have lost quite a lot of Corvettes and Cruisers (If you destroy them before the Warpout, like me), not to mention the amount of fighter and bombers (easily 6 or 7 squadrons during Delenda Est).
BTW: I think the project somehow involves the Karuna MK2... That frigate is SWEET... wastes a Narayana AND a Karuna with ease ( 1 on 1, that is).
GTVA has magic Anemois to repair them in days, while the UEF only have drydocks to repair them in weeks.
Anemois can repair ships yes, but as far as I know it has never been stated how quick or efficient it is COMPARED to a drydock.
Pure logic would dictate that a stationary, dedicated drydock still beats any Anemoi in efficiency. Anemoi's are missing a drydock in the first place. So if a repair requires you to park a corvette next to an Anemoi within a drydock, you'd have to set up that drydock first which takes up valuable time. Assuming an Anemoi can even set it up at all.
The only scenario where I see Anemoi being more efficient, is when it is only required to ship out and install spare parts for field repairs. anything that can be installed on the move with little to no downtime. But if a ship is badly damaged, engines are shot, hull has been breached, you need a drydock to fix those up. A drydock Anemoi does not have readily available at the very least.
Repairing small ships like fighters and bombers, now that's what an Anemoi can and probably does extremely well. If an Anemoi could house a cruiser within, it could repair them while on the move, anywhere anytime. Alas a cruiser cannot enter an Anemoi, requiring an external drydock for the most serious repairs.
it has been stated: they are as efficient as 3 docks
Its impossible, like Fury said, without an interior dock of some kind, it would be practically impossible to repair any major damage to Class Cruiser and up efficiently...
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I mean in the game so far, the UEF have only lost a couple of cruisers and 4 frigates 3 frigates (the Indus survives), where as the GTVA have lost quite a lot of Corvettes and Cruisers (If you destroy them before the Warpout, like me), not to mention the amount of fighter and bombers (easily 6 or 7 squadrons during Delenda Est).
Wait what.
The UEF has lost most of Third fleet, most of their subspace surveillance infrastructure, half their logistic infrastructure, including Artemis station and at least one major shipyard orbiting Earth, and multiple other fleet assets, especially cruisers and fighters, which aren't that easy to replace when you're under a critical logistic crisis.
What you see as a player in WiH is only a tiny part of what's going on in the Sol theater. There are at least 5 times during the events of WiH alone (aka not counting the 18 months prior) where major engagements throughout the system where happening while you're playing a mission : the Artemis Station blitz, the Meridian strikes on Luna, Darkest Hour, Aristeia and Delenda Est.
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GTVA has magic Anemois to repair them in days, while the UEF only have drydocks to repair them in weeks.
Anemois can repair ships yes, but as far as I know it has never been stated how quick or efficient it is COMPARED to a drydock.
Pure logic would dictate that a stationary, dedicated drydock still beats any Anemoi in efficiency. Anemoi's are missing a drydock in the first place. So if a repair requires you to park a corvette next to an Anemoi within a drydock, you'd have to set up that drydock first which takes up valuable time. Assuming an Anemoi can even set it up at all.
The only scenario where I see Anemoi being more efficient, is when it is only required to ship out and install spare parts for field repairs. anything that can be installed on the move with little to no downtime. But if a ship is badly damaged, engines are shot, hull has been breached, you need a drydock to fix those up. A drydock Anemoi does not have readily available at the very least.
Repairing small ships like fighters and bombers, now that's what an Anemoi can and probably does extremely well. If an Anemoi could house a cruiser within, it could repair them while on the move, anywhere anytime. Alas a cruiser cannot enter an Anemoi, requiring an external drydock for the most serious repairs.
it has been stated: they are as efficient as 3 docks
If the "magical Anemois" are so great, why does the GTVA still need to pull ships back into Delta Serpentis for extensive repairs, even though they have three of them (or two after the capture of the Agincourt) in Sol?
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BTW: I think the project somehow involves the Karuna MK2... That frigate is SWEET... wastes a Narayana AND a Karuna with ease ( 1 on 1, that is).
What Sanctus MK2 and Karuna MK2 have been equipped with are placeholder armaments, particularly Karuna MK2. So don't base any assumptions based on their current weapon loadouts.
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On all the talk about capship shields above, an interesting thing I've noticed:
It should be noted that the Lucifer was completely to anything the GTA/PVE/GTVA had, except beam cannons could penetrate them in "normal space".
I theorize the Lucifer shields were so kind of Culture Effector Lite: They shunt the energy from weapons hitting the Lucifer into subspace, and that beam cannons use some unknown method that lets them penetrate the shield. Because they shunt the energy into subspace, by common sense this simply does not work in subspace because the Lucifer doesn't have a place to dump those raw gigatons of energy hitting it anywhere.
This is also why fighter-grade shields don't work in subspace as well: They seem to work the same way, but due to a fighter being, well, a fighter, they would lack the power output to work on the scale the Lucifer's did. In this way, it may be possible that a number of sufficiently powerful weapons could penetrate the Lucifer's shields and harm it.
It may be so that capital-scale beam cannons are simply the most ergonomic solution, and that the Shivans discontinued use of Lucifer-type shields simply because there was no longer a point. I think it likely a meson bomb could destroy the Lucifer in normal space.
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Hasn't that been discussed to death on dozens of topics all over the forum ?
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It may be so that capital-scale beam cannons are simply the most ergonomic solution, and that the Shivans discontinued use of Lucifer-type shields simply because there was no longer a point. I think it likely a meson bomb could destroy the Lucifer in normal space.
MESON BOMB FTW!!! :pimp: :pimp:
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In Aristeia, even after I call in the Durgas to take out the Medea, if I don't disable her beam cannons, she'll typically destroy one of the frigates before the 3 bombers can do their thing.
Umm.. I play on Hard and EVERY time I've played, I've only deployed the Heavy bombers and some Ulhans to take care of the Medea... While I just waited by the Indus to watch the fireworks :nono:. They ALWAYS destroy the Medea in MAX 15 secs! Without losing any frigates (Mind you they are always below 15% health)
And even if the UEF have great bombers (the new Lapith is insane), how many do they have? And how to deploy them when their capships get gutted left and right? Deploying a bomber strike isn't as simple as giving them a target and sending them on their way.
The bombers could inflict heavy damage if they adopted the "run and gun" style of the GTVA. However that seems unlikely due to the logistical condition of the UEF.
We saw how "give them a target and send them on their way" ended up in Collateral Damage. Those 2 Durgas and 8 Uriels just got decimated by Serkr's point defenses. No matter how good Durgas are, they're helpless without an escort. If deploying them was so easy, why didn't TF Wargods have any Durgas attached? How many does the UEF even have? They're good, but like the Solarises, they're nowhere near invincible.
About Aristeia, I'm speaking of my own experiences on Hard. You're luckier than I am, because every time I leave her beam cannons alone, I end up losing the Indus.
Exactly my point, even though a victory for the GTVA would be imminent, but its sure as hell not absolute... I mean in the game so far, the UEF have only lost a couple of cruisers and 4 frigates 3 frigates (the Indus survives), where as the GTVA have lost quite a lot of Corvettes and Cruisers (If you destroy them before the Warpout, like me), not to mention the amount of fighter and bombers (easily 6 or 7 squadrons during Delenda Est).
It's already been said, but I'll say it again. The UEF lost a whole lot more than just TF Wargods. Most of 3rd JRF is gone. If we just remove the named ships it's lost from the order of battle posted in one of the stickied threads, they've got 3 Karunas (Minh, Ardent, Serenity), 3 Narayanas (Vikrant, Toreador, Rajput), an indeterminate amount of cruisers, and the Toutatis left. At most. They might have lost more. 1st and 2nd are in much better shape, but evidently not good enough to prevent the Blitz from doing the damage it did.
Speaking of the Blitz, they've also lost the Saab Shipyards, and enough orbital facilities that they're now only a few months away from complete logistical collapse, which means the end of the war. To put this in perspective, it's so much that just Rheza station means the difference between surrender and fighting on. Like I said, if Byrne's project can't turn things around, GTVA victory is absolutely certain.
I'm not saying the GTVA didn't take some pretty big losses, but they're much more capable of replacing them, so they're just not as important.
I'm really not sure how we're supposed to factor in "optional" losses. I never take out the engines of the Carthage's escorts, I voluntarily lose My Brother, My Enemy (I love the BP team for giving us the option to do that), I save the Vatican, but not Torpedo Two.
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We saw how "give them a target and send them on their way" ended up in Collateral Damage. Those 2 Durgas and 8 Uriels just got decimated by Serkr's point defenses. No matter how good Durgas are, they're helpless without an escort. If deploying them was so easy, why didn't TF Wargods have any Durgas attached? How many does the UEF even have? They're good, but like the Solarises, they're nowhere near invincible.
Hm. I thought Noemi's wing took escort. And what is an escort to do against point defenses, anyway? I don't even remember if Serkr had interceptor cover.
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We saw how "give them a target and send them on their way" ended up in Collateral Damage. Those 2 Durgas and 8 Uriels just got decimated by Serkr's point defenses. No matter how good Durgas are, they're helpless without an escort. If deploying them was so easy, why didn't TF Wargods have any Durgas attached? How many does the UEF even have? They're good, but like the Solarises, they're nowhere near invincible.
Hm. I thought Noemi's wing took escort. And what is an escort to do against point defenses, anyway? I don't even remember if Serkr had interceptor cover.
No, there was a "Keep Safe Distance" directive. Also, Aesaar is right Serkr had no fighter cover whatsoever...
Which leads me to believe, Maybe the pilots of the Shuhudune Durgas were complete rookies, they flew straight into the point defences of Serkr corvettes. The pilots of the Durgas that lead the assault on the Medea on the other hand, completed their mission with little or no casualties.
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Or perhaps the point defences of three elite corvettes are much more lethal than those of one normal corvette? ;)
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Haha. You guys are really using Collateral Damage as an example here? These Serkr corvettes in this mission had armor that reduced damage taken by 60% and those gunships and bombers had armor that increased damage by 50% to both shields and hull.
In BP missions things play out however fredders feel like they should play out, regardless of tabled ship and weapon default stats.
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Haha. You guys are really using Collateral Damage as an example here? These Serkr corvettes in this mission had armor that reduced damage taken by 60% and those gunships and bombers had armor that increased damage by 50% to both shields and hull.
You mean plot armor?
In BP missions things play out however fredders feel like they should play out, regardless of tabled ship and weapon default stats.
Wut?
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You mean plot armor?
Basically yes. Almost all BP2 missions use "plot armor" or more precisely, armor types. This allows fredders tighter control over how they want a mission to play at any given time. IIRC even player is given "plot armor" sometimes and you don't necessarily even notice it.
Wut?
I meant exactly what I said. The ships you see in a BP2 mission do not necessarily perform like they would if you place them to a new mission.
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Haha. You guys are really using Collateral Damage as an example here? These Serkr corvettes in this mission had armor that reduced damage taken by 60% and those gunships and bombers had armor that increased damage by 50% to both shields and hull.
You mean plot armor?
Plottanium?
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Haha. You guys are really using Collateral Damage as an example here? These Serkr corvettes in this mission had armor that reduced damage taken by 60% and those gunships and bombers had armor that increased damage by 50% to both shields and hull.
You mean plot armor?
Plottanium?
I would be nice to have a type of armor (in the real world) that changes its characteristics to deflect or absorb damage according to the will of those higher up... ;)
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On all the talk about capship shields above, an interesting thing I've noticed:
It should be noted that the Lucifer was completely to anything the GTA/PVE/GTVA had, except beam cannons could penetrate them in "normal space".
The Lucifer's shields were also easily penetrated by bombs and normal weapon fire by both the Vishnans and the Orestes battlegroup in AoA; indeed, the only reason plotwise that the Orestes didn't win outright is that the Lucifer kept jumping away to repair. GTVA technology is simply better in BP and I'd assume that Sol's is as well.
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But that Lucifer also had it's SReds replaced with HRed and it could fire LReds from the sides on top of that.
The most common fan-theory is that the Lucy switched off it's shields and redirected the energy into the weapon systems, since the shields didn't help against the beams, which are by far the most damaging weapon the GTVA had.
I meant exactly what I said. The ships you see in a BP2 mission do not necessarily perform like they would if you place them to a new mission.
And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).
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And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).
:eek: :no: :hopping: :mad: :mad2: And I spent nearly 2-3 hours trying to destroy those front BEAMZ!!!!
This is SOOO Cheating....
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And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).
:eek: :no: :hopping: :mad: :mad2: And I spent nearly 2-3 hours trying to destroy those front BEAMZ!!!!
This is SOOO Cheating....
If I recall correctly, you can blame one of the beta testers for this. But then, would you rather have cheating FREDers, or a missions that can easily become unbeatable because you killed something you shouldn't have?
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And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).
:eek: :no: :hopping: :mad: :mad2: And I spent nearly 2-3 hours trying to destroy those front BEAMZ!!!!
This is SOOO Cheating....
If I recall correctly, you can blame one of the beta testers for this. But then, would you rather have cheating FREDers, or a missions that can easily become unbeatable because you killed something you shouldn't have?
But then there should have been a directive to "Leave all the ****z behind and ONLY cover the Indus". You know, cause since there is no VA, and during that scene someone (I guess Laporte herself) says "We should disable the front beams of the Imperieuse " or something like that. So naturally I thot you were supposed to do that. I know the next line by Simms or someone was "no itz to risky" (or something like that) but I only found that out after the above-mentioned 2-3 hours
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And where even that isn't enough, they make specific subsystems invulnerable to make sure the mission plays out as it's supposed to be (parade examples are that single beam turret of the Carthage, that splashes the AWACS or the Imperieus front beams in Delenda Est).
:eek: :no: :hopping: :mad: :mad2: And I spent nearly 2-3 hours trying to destroy those front BEAMZ!!!!
This is SOOO Cheating....
If I recall correctly, you can blame one of the beta testers for this. But then, would you rather have cheating FREDers, or a missions that can easily become unbeatable because you killed something you shouldn't have?
But then there should have been a directive to "Leave all the ****z behind and ONLY cover the Indus". You know, cause since there is no VA, and during that scene someone (I guess Laporte herself) says "We should disable the front beams of the Imperieuse " or something like that. So naturally I thot you were supposed to do that. I know the next line by Simms or someone was "no itz to risky" (or something like that) but I only found that out after the above-mentioned 2-3 hours
And risk the player being stupid and going after the destroyer anyway, or just cover their tracks to begin with. It's not a hard choice, the FREDers did the right thing.
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Don't blame the FREDers for you lack of attention during dialogs, please. If FREDers want a mission to happen a certain way, it's their job to make sure it happens.
If u no like it, don't u play it.
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Haha. You guys are really using Collateral Damage as an example here? These Serkr corvettes in this mission had armor that reduced damage taken by 60% and those gunships and bombers had armor that increased damage by 50% to both shields and hull.
In BP missions things play out however fredders feel like they should play out, regardless of tabled ship and weapon default stats.
Anything that happens in a mission is by definition, BP canon. I don't care if the Fredders gave Serkr gods own wrath to use at their disposal, if they did it, Serkr has it.
So the ships were re tabled to make sure the mission plays out as planned. Well that plan was as follows: "some durgas and uriel's get their asses kicked by three elite corvettes". As such, it is canon, and reliable, to assume that Serkr is a meter stick to measure the Durga's performance against.
The only valid argument for saying Collateral Damage isn't an accurate measure is noting that that the Durgas were using jackhammers and not sledgehammers. Even if they had been though... point defense was tearing them a new asshole. It doesnt matter if Fredder tricks were doing it, the canon message is: Serkr's point defense > Durgas
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Don't blame the FREDers for you lack of attention during dialogs, please. If FREDers want a mission to happen a certain way, it's their job to make sure it happens.
If u no like it, don't u play it.
Oh I like it VERY much. Its just a teensy inconvinience to constantly read messages during the heat of combat. Anyways, it will be easily rectified when VA is added. :)
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Anything that happens in a mission is by definition, BP canon. I don't care if the Fredders gave Serkr gods own wrath to use at their disposal, if they did it, Serkr has it.
So the ships were re tabled to make sure the mission plays out as planned. Well that plan was as follows: "some durgas and uriel's get their asses kicked by three elite corvettes". As such, it is canon, and reliable, to assume that Serkr is a meter stick to measure the Durga's performance against.
The only valid argument for saying Collateral Damage isn't an accurate measure is noting that that the Durgas were using jackhammers and not sledgehammers. Even if they had been though... point defense was tearing them a new asshole. It doesnt matter if Fredder tricks were doing it, the canon message is: Serkr's point defense > Durgas
So you are saying because the Imperieuse and the Carthage had invulnerable beamturrets in one mission, they must always be invulnerable no matter what? Same for the Hoods engines, or the overcharged Deimos beams in Delenda Est.
In the mission with the Elder assasination, there was also one invulnerable Gef Scimitar...
See the problem with your argument?
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Anything that happens in a mission is by definition, BP canon. I don't care if the Fredders gave Serkr gods own wrath to use at their disposal, if they did it, Serkr has it.
So the ships were re tabled to make sure the mission plays out as planned. Well that plan was as follows: "some durgas and uriel's get their asses kicked by three elite corvettes". As such, it is canon, and reliable, to assume that Serkr is a meter stick to measure the Durga's performance against.
The only valid argument for saying Collateral Damage isn't an accurate measure is noting that that the Durgas were using jackhammers and not sledgehammers. Even if they had been though... point defense was tearing them a new asshole. It doesnt matter if Fredder tricks were doing it, the canon message is: Serkr's point defense > Durgas
So you are saying because the Imperieuse and the Carthage had invulnerable beamturrets in one mission, they must always be invulnerable no matter what? Same for the Hoods engines, or the overcharged Deimos beams in Delenda Est.
In the mission with the Elder assasination, there was also one invulnerable Gef Scimitar...
See the problem with your argument?
You're failing to understand my argument. My argument isn't that 'canonically some things are invulnerable' its that canon says three corvettes point defense can hold off some durgas.
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The first line of my first post was poorly phrased, it was late and I was tired. It was more to illustrate that fancy tricks by Fredders dont change the intent of the story, which is itself the source of canon
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But Serkr aren't just any corvettes. They are Steeles elite hunting dogs. They are crewed by the best men Steele has under his command (except maybe for the crew of the Atreus) and it's quite possible that, just like the Atreus, they come equiped with better technology than the "ranks and file" ships. Judging from the time they stayed on the field of battle in their first appearance, I'm pretty sure they have sprint drives.
And we also don't know how experienced those gunships and bombers were. For all we know they could have been the same as Neomis first wing, a bunch of rookies lead by a single experienced pilot.
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That's exactly the point Drogoth was making Norbert.
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Serkr are elite-crewed Sathanas hunter-killers. They most likely know better how to operate their ships at optimal capacity than most other corvette crews. That is materialized ingame by superior AI class.
That said, about Serkr, I point you to Collateral Damage's debriefing :
Serkr is a specially fitted combat team using sprint jump drives, sophisticated active armor, and modified weapons.
Moreover, Collateral's mission file shows that the Pilum and the Hydra are both equipped with 4 heavy flak turrets, which is a non-standard loadout.
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But Serkr aren't just any corvettes. They are Steeles elite hunting dogs. They are crewed by the best men Steele has under his command (except maybe for the crew of the Atreus) and it's quite possible that, just like the Atreus, they come equiped with better technology than the "ranks and file" ships. Judging from the time they stayed on the field of battle in their first appearance, I'm pretty sure they have sprint drives.
And we also don't know how experienced those gunships and bombers were. For all we know they could have been the same as Neomis first wing, a bunch of rookies lead by a single experienced pilot.
I entirely agree with your first point, but not about the pilots. While the Federation is experiencing a pilot shortage, they've still got quite a few good pilots, and I really doubt they'd put rookie pilots in some of their few heavy bombers and gunships. They're running out of Uriels, and I'd bet Durga supplies aren't doing much better, so it makes no sense to put a rookie pilot in one and get it destroyed in his first sortie.
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But Serkr aren't just any corvettes. They are Steeles elite hunting dogs. They are crewed by the best men Steele has under his command (except maybe for the crew of the Atreus) and it's quite possible that, just like the Atreus, they come equiped with better technology than the "ranks and file" ships. Judging from the time they stayed on the field of battle in their first appearance, I'm pretty sure they have sprint drives.
And we also don't know how experienced those gunships and bombers were. For all we know they could have been the same as Neomis first wing, a bunch of rookies lead by a single experienced pilot.
Point 1) All I said was that we can use Serkr as a canon source to use as a meterstick for the Durga's performance. The two durgas and some Uriels go in unsupported and get shredded. As such, we can estimate based on a straight up fight between the two sides, the kind of firepower the Durga can take and what it can't. It's the only IN MISSION bp canon we have to measure that (Aristeia, the Medea was already under fire and engaged against other forces - allthough I happen to think the Durgas would win that fight handily anyways)
Point 2) Unlikely. Durgas are precious resources. Maybe the security council crewed the Collossus with cadets and that's why it got destroyed. We'll never know. I think it got destroyed because the Sathanas was a superior war machine. I think we kind of have to assume that all crews will be operating their ships at at least 90% combat capacity, or else any argument would turn into. "Well no, a Deimos could beat a Solaris in a fight if the Deimos crew were leet hAxors and the Solaris crew were cadets"
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Maybe the security council crewed the Collossus with cadets and that's why it got destroyed.
Considering how Colly went down, this would explain a lot.
Also, Serkr corvettes are heavily buffed. If you check out the mission, their AA is superior (more stronger beams, IIRC) and I'm almost certain they were up-armored.
Not to mention Fury's AI has a lot of variance in it's performance depending on skill level. Serkr was, IIRC, set to some high class (General?), which has a lot of adventage over "captain" (which is the basic, default setting). Serkr was always absurdly powerful, and it's supposed to be like that. Try pitting Durga against a normal Bellerpohon, in a test mission featuring only them and the corvette.
If you put a Deimos against a Solaris with Solaris set to lowest AI and Deimos to highest, I imagine that Deimos could actually win.
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I very much doubt that. I can't imagine the skill level has that much influence on torpedoes. They automatically target subsystems with turrets having higher priority and unless shot down or outmanouvered have 100% accuracy.
Even if the firerate of the Solaris is halfed, it would still have enough missiles per salvo to totally overwhelm the Deimos' interception fire and lose a few turrets with each salvo. I'd imagine you'd have to buff up at least the subsystem HP of the Deimos for her to have a fighting chance.
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In order for a Deimos to have a chance to actually destroy a Solaris, you would have to a) Disable the Solaris' missile batteries, b) nerf the mass drivers on the Solaris, c) Replace the SGreens on the Deimos with something better.
The Solaris missile launchers are set up so that any target will always be in the line of fire of at least 3, most often 6, and regularly all 12 launchers.
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SGreen on a Deimos? Didn't you mean TerSlash?
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Yes, sorry. Still, something better than that would be needed.
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Haha. You guys are really using Collateral Damage as an example here? These Serkr corvettes in this mission had armor that reduced damage taken by 60% and those gunships and bombers had armor that increased damage by 50% to both shields and hull.
In BP missions things play out however fredders feel like they should play out, regardless of tabled ship and weapon default stats.
Anything that happens in a mission is by definition, BP canon. I don't care if the Fredders gave Serkr gods own wrath to use at their disposal, if they did it, Serkr has it.
This is generally my view. 'Plot armor' represents a ship's electronic warfare capabilities, active armor deployment, rapid damage control (like Battletech harjel), reactive plating like on modern tanks, and the use of conformal shield generators embedded in the hull, like the mini shields the Stiletto missiles in FS1 canonically had. AI class changes represent power redistribution and particularly skilled crews.
Obviously guardianed/invulnerable subsystems have a less firm basis in reality, but at the very least they can be partially represented as a lot of power in the turret's shielding. We always tried to put a little thought into how capships managed their power and heat and have this reflected in their warpin/warpout times and weapons fire.
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I have to express my gladness at Battuta's presence here, due to lack of a more appropriate place.
I am glad that Battuta is here.