Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: karajorma on February 23, 2012, 07:40:51 pm
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/22/world/asia/nato-commander-apologizes-for-koran-disposal-in-afghanistan.html?ref=asia
Word that NATO personnel had burned an undisclosed number of Korans and were preparing to dispose of many more by incineration set off an angry protest here on Tuesday. NATO officials rushed to apologize publicly and profusely, trying to head off what they feared could be a nationwide outburst of violence as news of the burning was gradually broadcast across the country.
:rolleyes:
If you're ignorant of what to do with an old Koran, ASK!
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Ya I know, right?
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Two NATO-forces members dead already as a result. Respecting culture is one thing (and I agree this was rampant stupidity on the part of the NATO forces), but certain religious fundamentalists need to lighten the **** up and cease the taking of lives over the slightest bit of offense. Good grief, if Western nations got as offended about destruction of theirs flag or calls for all of them to die, the majority of the Middle East would have been turned into glass some years ago.
It's a book. Yes, it's a holy book, yes, burning it is an affront to your religion, yes, it was a stupid thing to do... but FFS it isn't worth taking human lives over. *headdesk*
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we burn some old korans for the purpose of disposal, riots and death.
they burn american flags for the express purpose of offending us, we apologize for being us.
:banghead:
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I am wondering when their reactions are going to be enough to make those among us who are saying we should apologist to say, 'no. you know what, you are wrong here.'. I suppose there is no such depth.
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Two NATO-forces members dead already as a result. Respecting culture is one thing (and I agree this was rampant stupidity on the part of the NATO forces), but certain religious fundamentalists need to lighten the **** up and cease the taking of lives over the slightest bit of offense.
Won't deny that but while it might still be assault if you walk into a biker bar, find the biggest guy and then stare at his girl's tits, that doesn't make it a clever thing to do.
Stupid, violent people do stupid, violent things. If America was in the same situation, you can bet burning a bible would cause the same reaction. In fact Muslims burning a bible NOW would probably cause a similar reaction in America.
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Yeah, but I have to wonder what kind of rock you have to live under to know that certain religions take any perceived slight against their religious rules seriously, and that the reactions of some of the group I just mentioned are prone to violence or can be stirred to violence by those in authority in their religion that wish to do so.
I mean, hello... anyone home? Nope, I guess not.
Yes, the reaction was over[no pun intended]kill, of the same category as the father who shot a couple that deleted his daughter from Facebook (no one insults my daughter like that... wha- grow up already!?). However, knowing that these things would likely result if their method of disposal was incorrect,
1) Why did they not know the proper procedure for disposing of Korans (if there even is one)
2) Why do so in public? Just in case some nut takes offense, maybe make sure no one's looking?
Makes me wonder if someone put them up to it or if they were intentional in what they did.
Quick googling gets this:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?3443-ANSWERED-How-do-we-dispose-of-scripts-of-the-holy-quran
salaam,
inshallah check these. they may provide some assistance
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3367
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=9302
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=2605
also the below is from www.sunnipath.com
Would it be permissible to use a paper shredder to dispose of material with Qur'anic verses on them?
Answered by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
Would it be permissible to use a paper shredder to dispose of material with Qur'anic verses on them?
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful
With regards to disposing and getting rid of unwanted Islamic literature, many classical jurists (fuqaha) state that the best way to get rid of it is to bury it in a place where people normally would not walk. There is also nothing wrong in casting the literature in flowing water by tying it with something heavy. Alternatively, one may burn the Islamic literature, but only after erasing the name of Allah Most High, His angels and Messengers. (See: Radd al-Muhtar ala al-Durr al-Mukhtar, 5/271 and other classical Fiqh references)
Now, shredding Islamic literature is akin to burning it, hence the same rule would apply, in that it will be permitted to use a paper shredder to shred it, but only after erasing the name of Allah Most High, His angels and His Messengers. Also, one should avoid throwing the shredded remains in the bin; rather, one should bury the remains somewhere where people would not normally walk.
Note that the above ruling is only with regards to Islamic literature such as papers, Islamic books and other such material. As far as the Qur'an is concerned, there is a separate ruling concerning its disposal.
And Allah knows best
Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
Darul Iftaa, Leicester, UK
wasalaam
EDIT:
In fact Muslims burning a bible NOW would probably cause a similar reaction in America.
:wakka:
Oh, wait, you were joking, right? :doubt: When's the last time you heard of Muslims / Arabs being killed for insulting Christians / Americans?
FFS, they routinely kill converts to Christianity in quite a few Muslim countries. Are there riots?? I didn't think so.
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Oh, wait, you were joking, right? :doubt: When's the last time you heard of Muslims / Arabs being killed for insulting Christians / Americans?
FFS, they routinely kill converts to Christianity in quite a few Muslim countries. Are there riots?? I didn't think so.
A recent example of this:
http://aclj.org/iran/execution-orders-issued-pastor-youcef-nadarkhani
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Two NATO-forces members dead already as a result. Respecting culture is one thing (and I agree this was rampant stupidity on the part of the NATO forces), but certain religious fundamentalists need to lighten the **** up and cease the taking of lives over the slightest bit of offense.
Won't deny that but while it might still be assault if you walk into a biker bar, find the biggest guy and then stare at his girl's tits, that doesn't make it a clever thing to do.
Unfortunately, you're absolutely right. It may be an insane reaction, but it's also a completely-expected insane reaction, and the personnel who did it are extreme idiots.
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Oh, wait, you were joking, right? :doubt: When's the last time you heard of Muslims / Arabs being killed for insulting Christians / Americans?
I meant in America. Not in a Muslim country.
Get a buch of Muslims together and burn some bibles in the US. See what happens. According to you it would some mild protest.
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Oh, wait, you were joking, right? :doubt: When's the last time you heard of Muslims / Arabs being killed for insulting Christians / Americans?
I meant in America. Not in a Muslim country.
Get a buch of Muslims together and burn some bibles in the US. See what happens. According to you it would some mild protest.
Remember the Hate Speech in Orange County*? Imagine what would have happened if a hater brought a gun and a muslim burned the Bible. Oh, and no police to keep the peace (if possible).
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM)
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Yep, that pretty much underscores my point precicely.
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big difference being the rest of the world would then be condemning the hate speechers, not the ones who burned the bible.
that and i see a SMALL difference between getting shot when you deliberately offend a rally of racists than accidentally doing something offensive inciting terrorist attacks.
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Actually the world would condemn both most likely. Which is pretty much what happened in Afghanistan.
And you must be dreaming if you think that the rally of racists would be the only place there would be violence. Idiots all over the country would also take it as an excuse to go out and commit hate crimes. The only difference between America and Afghanistan in this is that Afghanistan has a bigger proportion of ignorant idiots who are easily swayed by their demagogues.
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Oh, wait, you were joking, right? :doubt: When's the last time you heard of Muslims / Arabs being killed for insulting Christians / Americans?
I meant in America. Not in a Muslim country.
Get a buch of Muslims together and burn some bibles in the US. See what happens. According to you it would some mild protest.
Hmm. Nuance: Those korans where burned accidently as part of a generic waste disposal. Bibles may or may not have been burned as well (considering that this is a standard practice, hundreds of bibles might just have been burned already, but nobody is complaining...). Your suggestion implies the deliberate burning of the bible to insult christians.
I think that most people would be able to see the nuance... Then again, the protestors that are causing the havoc right now probably never heard of the nuance and just have been told that the americans are deliberately burning korans.
And you must be dreaming if you think that the rally of racists would be the only place there would be violence. Idiots all over the country would also take it as an excuse to go out and commit hate crimes. The only difference between America and Afghanistan in this is that Afghanistan has a bigger proportion of ignorant idiots who are easily swayed by their demagogues.
You sure about that? Considering how many people like Rick Santorum so much...
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/*considers building a piece of art consisting of a high speed industrial laser printer feeding directly into a propane incinerator, and the printer is programed to continuously print out the Koran over and over again.*/
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Hmm. Nuance: Those korans where burned accidently as part of a generic waste disposal. Bibles may or may not have been burned as well (considering that this is a standard practice, hundreds of bibles might just have been burned already, but nobody is complaining...). Your suggestion implies the deliberate burning of the bible to insult christians.
I think that most people would be able to see the nuance... Then again, the protestors that are causing the havoc right now probably never heard of the nuance and just have been told that the americans are deliberately burning korans.
Nuance, my original point was that if America was in the same position as Afghanistan you'd get exactly the same reaction from an accidental burning. And that you can see that in the fact that a deliberate burning does get the same response even now.
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So... how do you dispose of old religious texts?
In Canada, we burn our old flags in a private, respectful manner.
I decided to look it up, and came across this
There are no specific scriptural instructions on how to dispose of an old Bible. While God's Word is holy and to be honored (Psalm 138:2), there's nothing sacred or hallowed in the physical materials: the paper, parchment, leather, and ink.
Bury it, erase it, or store it indefinitely. The Quran does not include instructions for its own disposal, and Mohammed never appears to have addressed the issue. Islamic scholars, however, offer several options. According to a recent essay by Jonas Svensson, a Swedish professor of Islamic studies, the most venerable method seems to be to wrap the text in cloth and store it indefinitely in a safe place.
Upon reading this, I found it highly amusing that it isn't actually stated anywhere, what to do with them. So, the people burning the texts weren't actually offending anyone by doing that. People took offense without actually realizing, that they shouldn't. It's clearly stated not to burn the American Flag when they get old. It is not stated anywhere, that you can't burn bibles or the Quran. There is however, clear saying what to do with a Torah
Unlike Judaism which requires a Torah scroll that is damaged beyond repair to be buried in a Jewish cemetery,
So really, NATO wasn't doing anything wrong. People just fail to understand their own religion. Not only that, but check this out
Burning isn’t a popular choice, because fire is associated with the devil as well as the early rival religion Zoroastrianism, but some scholars find it acceptable. Saudi religious authorities place burning on par with burial, as long as it’s done ritually on mosque property. They point out that Uthman ibn Affan, a friend to the prophet and early caliph, sanctioned the burning of nonconforming Qurans after compiling the official version. Other scholars view burning as a last resort, for example, in an emergency situation to prevent the book from being defiled. After burning, the ashes should be buried or scattered over water.
I mean sure, they didn't do it on Mosque property, but the main point is the fact there are so many different opinions on what to do with the thing, and no solid matter-of-fact of what to do with the thing
Sources:
http://christianity.about.com/od/biblestudyresources/qt/Old-Bible.htm
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/02/afghan_quran_burning_protests_what_s_the_right_way_to_dispose_of_a_quran_.html
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While I find Kara's point perfectly valid - you have to know this will result in some rather warm, brown and smelly stuff hitting the fast rotating blades originally designed to move air - there is one thing that kind of pisses me off here. While you can find fanatics in any given religion, if anyone had burned bibles there is a very high chance nobody would end up dead. With Islam, look at them the wrong way and there's usually deaths involved. And we all got used to it - walk around on eggshells when they're close by, or I hope you like C-4 in your cereal. I'm sick of their extremists holding the world hostage.
But yeah, dumb move anyway.
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I'm rather sick of them too. But the way to deal with these idiots is to marginalise them. So that no one wants to listen to them because they realise that they are the sad pathetic psychopaths they really are. Burning the Koran doesn't help with that. Acting like no one in America is equally stupid doesn't help with that.
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Oh, agreed.
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I hope I'm not the only one that accidentally read "Korans" as "Koreans" and thought "holy **** what the hell are we doing over there" and then realized it said "Korans" and then stopped caring.
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I was under the impression the proper was Quran anyhow
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There is no generally accepted way to Romanize Arab words. Some transliterations are just more common than others.
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So really, NATO wasn't doing anything wrong. People just fail to understand their own religion.
NATO is in Afghanistan at the express wish of the democratically elected government of Afghanistan and is widely supported by the Afghan population. The Bonn Agreement of 5 December 2001 requested the United Nations to authorise the development of a security force to assist in maintaining security in Kabul and its surrounding areas. On 20 December 2001, the UN Security Council approved the first resolution authorizing the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).
In light of their mission, yes, they did wrong.
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From the same forum I quoted earlier, directly below the post I quoted: (emphasis mine)
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?3443-ANSWERED-How-do-we-dispose-of-scripts-of-the-holy-quran
for the useful links. There's also this:
Disposing Unusable Copies of the Qur’an
As far as old and unusable copies of the Qur’an are concerned, it is not permitted to burn them unless there is no other way to dispose of them.
The great Hanafi Imam, Imam Ibn Abidin (may Allah have mercy on him) states:
“If a copy of the Mushaf (qur’an) becomes old and it is difficult to read from it, it should not be burnt in fire. This is what Imam Muhammad (m: student of Imam Abu Hanifa) pointed out and this is what we take. It will not be disliked to bury it. It should be wrapped in a pure cloth, and a Lahd grave (m: grave that has a incision in the side wall, customary in hot climate countries where the earth is solid) should be dug, because if a Shiq grave (m: grave with a straight opening, common in cold climate countries due to the earth being soft) is dug and the copy of the Qur’an is buried, it will entail the soil falling on top of the Qur’an which is a form of disrespect, unless a slab is placed as a roof…” (Radd al-Muhtar, 5/271)
In light of the above, there are two methods of disposing of an unusable copy of the Qur’an:
1) Wrapping it in a pure piece of cloth and burying it respectfully in a place where people (normally) do not walk about. In cold climate countries (such as the UK), one may dig a Shiq grave, but a slab should be placed first and over it the soil.
2) Fastening the Qur’an with a heavy object like a stone and then placing it respectfully in flowing water.
If one is able to implement the above two methods, it would not be permitted to burn the copy of the Qur’an. However, if the above two methods are difficult to carry out, then one may burn the Qur’an and bury or drown the resulting ash.
(http://www.daruliftaa.com/question.a...nID=q-08570775)
Please see the above link for more info.
Allah knows best.
Wassalam,
Ziad
Note, this is the opinion of Muslim cleric / scholars, as the Koran does not specify how old copies are to be disposed of (neither does the Bible, however, it is commonly accepted that burning is ok and respectful, same with the US flag, if it's done in the correct manner). Apparently, it is acceptable to burn a Koran if it's not possible to bury it in the earth or at sea, so do you think it would be forgivable for NATO forces to accidentally carry out a proper Koran disposal that is not quite correct?
Yeah, they should have checked. No, burning with the trash isn't acceptable (ashes should be buried at sea or in the earth). But, apparently, burning is an alternate method of disposing of Korans, so why the big fuss? Brake check.. why didn't the Muslims witnessing the burning simply inform the NATO workers of the correct way to dispose of the Koran copies and offer to help them do it properly? Maybe because they've been programmed to think that the big bad West has it in for them and their religion. Anyway. Following link is interesting.
http://www.npr.org/2012/02/24/147321213/how-to-properly-dispose-of-sacred-texts
Excerpt:
Malik, who spent time in Afghanistan in November 2010, says the troops should have asked for guidance.
"If one said, 'Well, we're burning some Qurans today,' that wouldn't incite riots in Afghanistan," he says. "The problem is when one puts a malicious intent as part of the burning."
Malik says the assumption there is that Americans disrespect Muslims. That's why there would be such a visceral response to burning the Quran, even though a layperson could do so under Muslim law — as long as the intent was respectful.
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I believe I said the same thing on the previous page...
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Ah, it appears you did. I did skim over it; I guess I missed most of it however. Sorry.
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The problem with fanatics is often that they don't really understand what they're making a fuss about. While every Muslim is supposed to have a copy of Koran, I don't think that those fanatics actually read and understood it.
This isn't exclusive to Islam, anyway. Compare the actions of Christian fanatics to actual teachings of Jesus Christ. It's obvious that those people either didn't read or understood the Bible.
TBH, Buddhism (and perhaps Hinduism) is the only big religion I know of that didn't suffer from this.
Also, America happens to be a country with a relatively reasonable approach to religion, so it's a bad example for comparisons. Burning a Bible in, say, Poland would have a similar effect to burning a Koran in Iraq, minus the killings (though, considering the recent events, who knows...), and that's mostly because Polish civilians don't usually have weapons (getting a permit is a bureaucracy-laden obstacle course, like most things in there).
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-_- It's not that hard to kill people without weapons, you know. Or, let me rephrase: it's relatively easy to kill people with weapons of opportunity and the element of surprise. Unless they, you know, think fast on their feet, and particularly if they are armed with a real weapon themselves.
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is it just me or are the reports saying Afghans were the ones killed? I'm not even sure how that happens.
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AFAIK, there were like 6 Afghans killed, as well as separately, 2 US (I think, maybe non-US NATO) troops killed when an Afghan security personnel turned his weapon on them.
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The problem with fanatics is often that they don't really understand what they're making a fuss about. While every Muslim is supposed to have a copy of Koran, I don't think that those fanatics actually read and understood it.
Even calling a lot of sectarian violence the product of fanaticism is wrong. Religious freedom is not a right in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or a lot of other places we regard as fanatic infested. Without legal protections people will seek physical protection. There's nothing unusual or fanatical about that; you can pretty much put it down as a law of nature. It's why we have Somali pirates and Sudenese warlords. It's how you build a dicatorship by turning your populace against each other.
Safe and comfy in a world where the ability to worship as one chooses is enshrined in law, and the laws to defend it are effective, we forget that for decades an Afghani has only been able to defend the ability to worship as they choose with bullets. Fanaticism is not required; if you told all the Baptists or the Catholics or the Lutherans they were no longer allowed to worship as their chosen sect, you'd get riots and bombings and mob violence in any country in the West.
That wasn't the intention of this act, but it sure looked like more of the religious sect suppression the Middle East has been dealing with for decades. It was responded to as such.
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Fanaticism is not required; if you told all the Baptists or the Catholics or the Lutherans they were no longer allowed to worship as their chosen sect, you'd get riots and bombings and mob violence in any country in the West.
Oh there are plenty of people in all of those groups who are plenty fanatic, just watch Borat. The only difference is that they're a minority, and not in a position to start a riot every time someone burns a bible. Otherwise, Catholics and Lutherans have spent many centuries killing each other before they were constrained by society as it adopted liberal values and secular law. Whereas the Afghan government isn't capable and equipped well enough to just arrest and teargas anyone who starts a violent protest.
Then again things were likely a little more peaceful than what was portrayed in the news article, since the media always has to highlight the most craziest crazies on both sides.
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well at least they didnt use them as toilet paper.
religious texts make really good toilet paper.
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Some new information claims that some guys on base were scribbling **** in the Korans, whose basic information was basically "WENDY HAS A HUGE DICK". The other guys found this out and went to chuck it in the confidential burning bag, but they but it in the non-confidential and thus we learnt of this.
Burning the Koran is a major offense to Islamic religion unless it can't be disposed of the traditional way.
Desecrating it is one too.
Dickbags. Learn your culture before you go to foreign countries, K? I heard it tends to improve your relations with the people who live there. :nono:
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Ah. If the wrote "US Army grunts." instead of "NATO Personel", then it'd be clear from the start (yes, I'm on USMC side). :)
Jokes aside, they should have been taught that Korans are important to citizens of the country they're going to. It's hard to blame the Afghans for getting angry about the incident.
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I got a weird pocket bible from some religious people at the fair once. I used it to start a fire in the fireplace, not out of disrespect, but because it's what I had on hand and wasn't religious. Oddly enough, I got a nose bleed right after doing it.
Anyway, I'm sure people do much more disrespectful stuff to Qorans than burning them on a regular basis. There's lots of people who, fairly, wouldn't see doing what these arabs would consider as unconscionable as bad in the slightest. Heck, there are probably lots of ex Muslims who didn't care what happened to some old holy books and threw them out.
Anyway,
Burning Korans: When all you need is an excuse.
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Oh there are plenty of people in all of those groups who are plenty fanatic, just watch Borat. The only difference is that they're a minority, and not in a position to start a riot every time someone burns a bible.
The point was over here, you missed it.
Every time people don't have a legal right to be not-X, they get a tiny bit upset and seek to secure the right to be not-X with force of arms. Doesn't matter if it's the right to be not-Catholic or the right to be not-white or the right to be not-starving. The use of force of arms has been the only way to be not-X in Afghanistan for decades.
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Yeah but decent riot police would take care of that problem pretty fast. At least the protest part.
What the ISAF really needs to do is legalize and tax opium so the tiny fraction of the Afghan government that isn't corrupt can fund itself.
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...really? grow opium? that is your solution to this?
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About a third of Afghanistan's GDP is foreign aid, another half is poppies. So if you're going to collect more taxes from anything it's there.
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As much as the religious aspect and typical extrmist overreaction is what caused all the "apparent" problems in this case...
... frankly... the military burning books is never a good idea - no matter which books.
Too much history involved that might rub all kinds of people the wrong way.
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maybe if they went around and rounded all copies of them up and burned them you might have a point, this was waist disposal.
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maybe if they went around and rounded all copies of them up and burned them you might have a point, this was waist disposal.
I imagine that that's quite painful.
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... wish I could dispose of a bit of my waist...
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:nervous:
How did i miss this topic?