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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: JGZinv on March 16, 2012, 02:07:21 am

Title: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: JGZinv on March 16, 2012, 02:07:21 am: Kotaku brought this up in their article here:
http://kotaku.com/5893778/why-kickstarter-is-best-for-old-games--dead-genres

Hitting on X-wing and Wing Commander notably... but I figure hit it as a point of discussion.

Could a crowd funded space sim work? Would it be easier to start a fund to buy the rights of our favorite
series from developer-X than to DIY? We're in the golden age of kickstarter right now I think...

Discuss.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: headdie on March 16, 2012, 04:38:46 am: I think I fresh story setting would work best for such a project as you then have no worries about the financial overhead of acquiring an existing IP or the potential legal mess of licencing one. It also has the advantage that the project founder can be considering the setting and start creating an outline from the get go without having to wait for the money to build up to attempt to acquire the rights to an existing setting which ultimately might never happen.

As for could it work, yes, so long as it remains active and is able attract/keep public attention.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: z64555 on March 24, 2012, 01:27:40 am: I agree with headdie, a DIY project should be the best start for these sorts of things. Once it has matured to a point where people are more interested in playing/using it than the original, then it would be time to start looking to buying the rights to the series/game/etc.

Space sims are at a bit of a disadvantage compared to other games, primarily due to the fact that special hardware (joysticks, yawpedals) are needed in order to make use of the more advanced features. As such, young new users/players to the genre are deterred by the fact that they could not enjoy a space sim on what equipment they had at the time, and could not afford/bother to get the hardware needed.

As such, I think that Space sims should focus on making their interface clean and simple to use while using stock, or otherwise cheap to get, HID's. The Joy-mouse script made here awhile back is a good start, and I think it would be a bonus if we could provide provisions for other HID's, such as maybe a re-map menu that focuses on the HID itself instead of the available functions (kinda like Belkin's Nostromo Profile editor).
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Thaeris on March 24, 2012, 10:07:54 am: I've never had problems enjoying or liking flight or space simulators, ever, and I've only once seen a single game that required you to have a joystick to play effectively. The only joystick I had as a kid was an "idfltstick," or some strange spelling like so, and it didn't last long. So I continued to use the keyboard and the mouse for a very, very long time. My Extreme 3D Pro is the second stick I've ever had, for that matter (and it's much nicer than the other stick by a long shot).

That said, I think that flight and space sims get a bad wrap in the minds of a casual gamer as they require a much more labor-intensive style of play to master or be proficient at. Flying a space ship or an aeroplane is not easy, and a sim tries to be as realistic as possible. As a result, sims tend to be - get this: hard. For that matter, I love this example... one of my friends was impressed by me murdering Shivans with dumbfire rockets in FS1 with the Athena, so I gave him a copy of FS1 to try out. He just couldn't get it, or into it.

That said, hardware IS an issue, but not like you think: his laptop did not have a numeric pad, and re-configuring keys was not something he wanted to do. I think a lot of people now-a-days just don't have the basic hardware set to use flight sims effectively. So, faced with either making a game he genuinely wanted to play work (not the case), or ditching a game he was merely curious with (definately the case), he chose the latter.

However, z64555 definately also srikes a chord, as I grew up without joysticks for the most part. Thus, using the keyboard and the mouse is no problem at all to me. Yet, when I had a roommate who was a pilot, I tried to get him to play with X-Plane. And that he did, but he could not tolerate the sim by flying it with the mouse, as I did most of the time. However, when we took the time to shoot each other up with the Infinity Combat Prototype, there was never a problem, and there we had to use mice and the keyboard. In the end, it's often the way the control system is set up that makes all the difference, as well as how much you want to play something (your personal adaptibility is also relevant, of course).

Finally, everyone used to make and play flight simulators. Everyone. And aeroplanes are complex flight systems which are hard to control, so you need lots of commands to manage their operation. But then, there were simpler simulation-esque programs that came out, like shooters. Suddenly, though they were quite challenging, they did not rely on vast spaces albeit with lots of controls, but small spaces with few controls. And then everyone made those. The biggest problem is that many gamers don't want to "work to play," so although they grind out those shooters to no end, a flight sim is not as interesting because the up-front labor requirement is seemingly too high. My friend that I gave a copy of FS1 to... I doubt he ever tried it again. Not only because it was not going to be a few minutes of set-up time for him, but because there were now instructions and keys to remember. The up-front labor was just too much for him to deal with.

It is possible to find a happy medium, and I think the easiest space sim that felt real to me (and can now be made much more realistic now that the the source code is out) is Starshatter. Unfortunately, SS also only really shines with a joystick. But it is proof that you can have a very happy medium between realism and simple controls. At the same time, I think that most of us find that over-simplifying controls and control schemes really takes away from the feel of the game... Thus, in the end, you're stuck with publishers, who do not want to make something that users will whine and complain about because it is too difficult, and experienced simmers who like the challenge. To meet both perspectives, somehow one must make the whole of the product desireable enough that any complexity in controls or hardware becomes acceptable to the user. Unfortunately, it's been a very long time since anyone has done that, and most users probably gawk at the concept - they've been made unfamiliar with difficult.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Unknown Target on March 24, 2012, 11:31:41 am: I'd love to do a space sim on Kickstarter. I would just need someone else to manage it and program it. Art-wise though I could totally do that. :)
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: JGZinv on March 24, 2012, 12:40:15 pm: Edit - That's cool Target.

Hmm well...

For myself, I have heard it 3 ways...

"I don't have a stick so I can't play,"
"I can't get used to / don't want to config controls"
"Controls are too complex / high learning curve / poorly documented"

Now let me start out by saying that I'm in the weird category of trackball mice. It moves faster and has more precise control
than a traditional mouse, but I sacrifice smoothness and some level of tracking.

I started out with the Xwings, and Tachyon, using a joystick... played that way for a while. Got out of PC games and came back.
Forgot I had a joystick / didn't want to set it up / didn't have a gameport any more... so I used my mouse.
Eventually I grew to prefer the mouse greatly over the stick, because I could out turn and and have more precision than a stick.

With that said, coming to FS2... I find the control scheme seriously bloated. I find nothing to like about having to remember shift, ctrl, or alt
versions of keys. A keyboard has enough keys to begin with that are difficult to learn, much less alts. As was, it was a giant turn off to FS2
compared to what I had previously used.

Now that the mouse as joystick script is in, I do find that to be a valid if not more so enjoyable way to fly than using a actual joystick.

So I can see the argument from all sides... each does have some validity to their control scheme complaints.

A lot of so called space sims lately too, have tried the dumbing down approach, and as a result turned off any core fans that came to check the
product out. You could just as easily point at any space game attempt made on consoles. Most of them are utter junk.

But... I don't think it's impossible to make a decent control scheme in any of these situations. For consoles, I could cite the old Crimson Skies.
For PC I think Tachyon did a lot of things right, with minor adjustments. Console RTS = halo wars, PC RTS = mouse & keyboard. Joysticks, mouse,
and mouse as stick support... variety and support to try and appease everyone is the trick, and it's not done because of time and money. The other
thing is you have to present the player with these options in such a fashion that you don't overwhelm them, but also cater to the die hards that
want to tweak their 52 button sticks for hours. This can be something as simple as a basic setup menu and a tick box for advanced mode that
presents all the options.

Joysticks have become a premium item really. So unless a game is going to bundle one in with it, you have to treat mouse & keyboard as default,
and go from there.

But aside from controls being a stumbling block to new adopters.... personally I think there's still a void out there for a independent engine, maybe something
MMO class, or scalable... where you could distribute it and have everyone from the modding community level to a small studio level be able to make a flight or
space sim game. What I'm trying to get at is a engine designed for modding from the ground up.

For a while I think everyone thought Infinity would be that engine, then it changed direction.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: headdie on March 24, 2012, 01:32:54 pm: Arcade vs micromanagement balance is one of those things that would have do be decided early on, given the gamer market today I would suggest closer the arcade end of the spectrum to maximise appeal. the ugg you are dumbing things down argument is a mute point here, for a kickstart like this to achieve its objective of reviving the genre it needs to appeal to the masses which means the casual console crowd. Sure more advanced options should be included but should not be needed but provided to allow the more advanced player to try different things.

As for input the game needs to be at least as playable as FS using an all keyboard control with adequate mouse control. I hate to say it but with the lack of joysticks out there again joystick control will need to be looked at as a nicety for the serious player to use but not a project requirement, of they can get it in, great.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Unknown Target on March 24, 2012, 06:26:18 pm: I've thought a lot about how to do a space sim, and the best solution I came up with was to use the controller. It has a lot of buttons, most people have one (most serious PC gamers have a controller, and you can release on Xbox/PS3), and contrary to popular belief, you don't really have to dumb down the gameplay to use one; you've got two sticks and something like 12 buttons. That's enough to make a good space sim, anything more than that and you're just being esoteric.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: z64555 on March 24, 2012, 06:42:23 pm: With the comments about controls, I think we pretty much agree that a good, customizable system is needed. I also think that FSO's current remapping system is ok, as it allows you to customize every little detail, but I also think its difficult to navigate and associate the remapping to the controller that you currently have plugged in.

That's why I had suggested using something like this:
(http://www.dansdata.com/images/nostromo/loadoutfull.gif)

The control the player is currently configuring is clearly visible, along with all of the remapable controls. A roll-out menu that either drops down or slides off to the side could be used to organize the numerous controls. Additionally, when a certain controls group is selected (e.g. weapon controls), then all currently mapped controls are highlighted on the graphic.

A bit more on-topic: I think that if we can make the controls as painless as possible to players both new and old, then support for a kickstart would be more attractive... at least that's what I think at the moment. :nervous:
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Bob-san on March 24, 2012, 07:36:20 pm: Quote from: z64555 on March 24, 2012, 06:42:23 pm
With the comments about controls, I think we pretty much agree that a good, customizable system is needed. I also think that FSO's current remapping system is ok, as it allows you to customize every little detail, but I also think its difficult to navigate and associate the remapping to the controller that you currently have plugged in.

That's why I had suggested using something like this:
(http://www.dansdata.com/images/nostromo/loadoutfull.gif)

The control the player is currently configuring is clearly visible, along with all of the remapable controls. A roll-out menu that either drops down or slides off to the side could be used to organize the numerous controls. Additionally, when a certain controls group is selected (e.g. weapon controls), then all currently mapped controls are highlighted on the graphic.

A bit more on-topic: I think that if we can make the controls as painless as possible to players both new and old, then support for a kickstart would be more attractive... at least that's what I think at the moment. :nervous:
That's still too complex. Relatively few people own joysticks and they're already "initiated". That begs the question--how could you setup an easier control method? Programming in upgrades is something else entirely. Is it possible to do a virtual mouse joystick? My thought on that is to effectively draw a series of circles, each of which is a different turning speed. It means that someone with a desk mouse or a laptop with a nub could easily control the game--not having to move their mouse endlessly to keep turning in a direction.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: JGZinv on March 24, 2012, 07:45:08 pm: Bob-san... we're already using mouse as joystick, it's in the scripting forum... check it out.

We might be off on a tangent about controls, rather than a project itself.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Bob-san on March 24, 2012, 08:00:33 pm: Quote from: JGZinv on March 24, 2012, 07:45:08 pm
Bob-san... we're already using mouse as joystick, it's in the scripting forum... check it out.

We might be off on a tangent about controls, rather than a project itself.
As you might guess, I've not played a recent build. I'm stuck back in the 3.6.9 range.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: headdie on March 24, 2012, 08:03:25 pm: Quote from: Bob-san on March 24, 2012, 08:00:33 pm
Quote from: JGZinv on March 24, 2012, 07:45:08 pm
Bob-san... we're already using mouse as joystick, it's in the scripting forum... check it out.

We might be off on a tangent about controls, rather than a project itself.
As you might guess, I've not played a recent build. I'm stuck back in the 3.6.9 range.

:wtf: :eek2:
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Bob-san on March 24, 2012, 08:10:20 pm: Quote from: headdie on March 24, 2012, 08:03:25 pm
Quote from: Bob-san on March 24, 2012, 08:00:33 pm
Quote from: JGZinv on March 24, 2012, 07:45:08 pm
Bob-san... we're already using mouse as joystick, it's in the scripting forum... check it out.

We might be off on a tangent about controls, rather than a project itself.
As you might guess, I've not played a recent build. I'm stuck back in the 3.6.9 range.
:wtf: :eek2:
Would it make you feel better if I stated that I only have the 3.6.8 media VPs?
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Hades on March 24, 2012, 08:16:01 pm: Quote from: Bob-san on March 24, 2012, 08:10:20 pm
Would it make you feel better if I stated that I only have the 3.6.8 media VPs?
dude what

Uhhh, no? Seriously, get at least something close to resembling recent FSU/FSO stuff.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on March 24, 2012, 08:17:34 pm: Just chiming in to say I've always found the mouse controls to be far more agreeable than joysticks, and it's not that I don't like using joysticks...I played almost nothing but Jane's F-15 and Falcon 4.0 back in the day.

I would love to see a good space sim game, especially made in Crytek. It would be absolutely beautiful, and the engine supports a lot of good physics.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Thaeris on March 24, 2012, 08:25:13 pm: Thing is... I've seldom seen an engine that could "do everything" that did everything perfectly well. As such, when I see games made in Unreal, they look like FPS's, not sims. At least Arma makes you "feel" like you're flying, even if the physics aren't really up-to-par in the realism department.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Hades on March 24, 2012, 08:28:18 pm: Agreed about the mouse and graphical engine, Twenty% :cool: er

Although one thing I'd want to know is, what space-sim genre would it be made in?

There's mission based (FreeSpace, Wing Commander, Starlancer, etc)
Or open world (Freelancer, X3, Escape Velocity Nova, etc)

I honestly think I'd like to see the latter, with the more arcade-ish and simple flightstyle of Freelancer (that about all from Freelancer taken, too), really good scaling, good art style, dynamic economy, multiplayer, etc.

The problem with Freelancer was the godawful artstyle that looks like something a five year old came up with, it being horrible incomplete, and the scaling, the awful scaling. X3 was overly complex and felt somewhat limited, it was also a mess of two different game genres all together piled into one which didn't work so well (being empire building and open world space sim, and having to play it like both) and had no multiplayer. Both games also have horribly incomplete shiplines, being only one ship per class (one destroyer, one battleship, etc, though Freelancer is worse here) These are all bad things I think should not be present if a game like them were made.

That is the problem with an open world, though. It requires massively more work and funding, compared to a regular mission-based space sim.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: z64555 on March 24, 2012, 09:08:43 pm: Would you be more willing to kickstart a mod of the Crytek engine, or an open-source engine such as FSO?
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: LordMelvin on March 24, 2012, 10:28:14 pm: Quote from: z64555 on March 24, 2012, 09:08:43 pm
Would you be more willing to kickstart a mod of the Crytek engine, or an open-source engine such as FSO?

I'd be more likely to kickstart an open-source engine, if only because I don't have a copy of Crysis to mod.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: jr2 on March 25, 2012, 01:04:59 am: Whichever space sim type you chose (MMO, freestyle, storyline, mission-based) I think that there still needs to be a compelling, gripping underlying story to tell.. that helps immensely with immersion.

I'd think there should be a more serious single player / multi-player co-op, with an additional, more arcade-style TvT / FFA multi-player SHMUP mode. Perhaps then everyone would fine a niche in the game that they like.

Controls? Make them simple, with advanced options available... just make it so that on Easy you really don't need to play with the more advanced options (beginning / casual user), and for more serious users, have advanced configurations for higher difficulties. The only problem is introducing the more advanced features so that serious players will know that they are available, in a way that will not irritate the Halo fanboi SHMUPpers.

EDIT: And XBOX360 wired controllers work with and Windows XP on up PC or laptop with a free USB port. Not sure about PS controllers, but XBOX360 should be around $30 IIRC... gotta check that. ... yup, $30 incl shipping (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16874103205).
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on March 25, 2012, 12:11:13 pm: There are definitely kludged drivers for the PS3 sixaxis controllers for Windows now. I think it's called MotionInJoy or something. And some third-party PS3 controllers even have manufacturers' drivers; I have a PDP Afterglow controller and it's plug and play in Windows 7.

I would love to see almost any kind of space sim as long as the production values were excellent. The genre is stuck in a rut right now where if some company makes a space sim, it's a half-assed POS because they weren't willing to put true heart into it, because they don't think there's any profit in the genre....but, because there haven't been any truly remarkable space sims in a while, interest in them is at an all-time low, reserved for people like us who refuse to let go. Statistical anomalies.

As far as the engine goes...really, it's a choice of time or money. License a well-known engine, and it skips the process of coding it from scratch and you get all the documentation for it, as well as the option of taking a look at other games made in that engine, seeing what works well and what doesn't. I really think that a few universal engine is what will eventually revive the PC gaming scene, but I'll save my soapbox rant on how dumb it is for companies to keep stubbornly making their own engines because of pride (Bethesda, cough cough ) for another thread. Of course, using the FSO engine would be ideal, because all of you wonderful and dedicated FSO people have massive amounts of experience in it, but would a commercial, for-profit venture using the engine even be legal?
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: Thaeris on March 25, 2012, 12:24:08 pm: Personally, I'm still holding out for the iNovae engine, which will first be marketed as the engine itself. Realistic physics, beautiful visuals, and the ability to go where ever you want to go, with no fear of running out of space. All a developer or team would need to do would be to insert the guts which turn a story, like a campaign or mission engine, and any additional components to tell the story. The only gripe I can come up with right now (besides the fact that it probably wouldn't run on my machine) is that it's going to be DirectX, which will limit its initial useage to Windows machines.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: z64555 on March 27, 2012, 05:34:40 pm: Quote from: TwentyPercentCooler on March 25, 2012, 12:11:13 pm
...would a commercial, for-profit venture using the engine even be legal?

Short answer would probably be "Nope." That is, unless :v: decided to change the licensing of the FS engine to a point where HLP/the community could buy legal commercial rights to it.
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: jr2 on March 28, 2012, 03:40:40 pm: To do that, wouldn't :v: need THQ's permission?
Title: Re: Space Sim + Kickstarter = ?
Post by: headdie on March 28, 2012, 03:48:59 pm: Quote from: jr2 on March 28, 2012, 03:40:40 pm
To do that, wouldn't :v: need THQ's permission?

probably not, probably. It depends on the terms of the takeover as to how :v:'s stuff done prior to the takeover is owned. you might find that there would be the need to compensate :v:/THQ for the commercial use of sections of the code written by :v: