Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bobboau on April 09, 2012, 02:06:51 am
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The basic problem is this, we cannot confirm our senses independent of our senses. i.e. we might all be in a matrix, or having a dream, or be characters in someone else's dream. Can we know that reality exists at all? If we define reality as the physical universe it appears to be, then I don't think we can, however, if we define it slightly looser, maybe as 'the source from which our sensory information originates' then perhaps we can? if this works, and we can know that reality does in fact exist, can we know if our actions truly are effecting it?
we have some philosophy majors here right?
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http://xkcd.com/220/
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I didn't want to be the one to link that, but pretty much that. :D
Or in other words, "Does it even matter?"
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the universe is a figment of your imagination. to see the real world you must first nuke the universe.
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I already had this conversation in another forum once before
The jist of what I said is that there is no true reality. It is all simply a perception based upon what we see, feel, hear, taste and smell. Our perception does not always coincide with someone else's, thus leading us trying to define which of the two is true when in reality, they both are
Same goes for the truth. The truth is as we see it, and reality is as we see to define it.
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Something seems to exist, that is the reality.
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Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7. Activity recorded M.Y. 2302.22467. (TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED)
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Something seems to exist
perception is not reality, how do you know that what you sense is true.
they both are
what leads you to dismiss the possibility that neither are
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My take on this:
It doesn't really matter. What we perceive could be real or it could so perfectly simulated so as to not be able to tell the difference. Given that we have no way of knowing, why worry about it? Down that road lies nothing but madness. Better to just assume it's real enough and get on with life.
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I never said it mattered, only that it would be fun to try and answer the question, if we can't it doesn't suddenly mean we don't exist anymore.
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Yes it does. AAAAAAaaahhhhhh *poof* :warp:
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Go read some Kant... not that you will get any answers out of it, but he filled whole books about exactly this.
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"Cogito ergo sum"
If that's not enough, then we'll need the squirt bottle.
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I accept that much, I am fairly sure that I can say that I know that I exist because i would not be able to ponder the question if I did not.
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perception is not reality, how do you know that what you sense is true.
The alternative, to assume that what we sense is not real, is unuseful sophistry. Nothing can be accomplished by it.
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I'm not saying it is a bad assumption, I'm just trying to see if we can push any further beyond assumption and towards proving it is true, I accept that this discussion is of minimal usefulness.
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the universe is a figment of your imagination. to see the real world you must first nuke the universe.
I read that in Carl Sagan's voice. :V
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give that man a cookie!
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what leads you to dismiss the possibility that neither are
That's the ultimate paradox isn't it?
They both are, and aren't at the same time. It's simply up to us to decide
But as stated prior, it is easier to dwell on the "is" rather than the "isn't" thus my use of "they both are" instead of "they both aren't". One leads to bliss, the other to madness
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The basic problem is this, we cannot confirm our senses independent of our senses. i.e. we might all be in a matrix, or having a dream, or be characters in someone else's dream. Can we know that reality exists at all? If we define reality as the physical universe it appears to be, then I don't think we can, however, if we define it slightly looser, maybe as 'the source from which our sensory information originates' then perhaps we can? if this works, and we can know that reality does in fact exist, can we know if our actions truly are effecting it?
we have some philosophy majors here right?
This is what I came up with awhile ago;
If, in my own reality, the laws of that physical reality state that there must have been creatures before me for my being to evolve, which would require a period during which I did not exist to comprehend or create a reality, then recursively there must be a reality external to the one percieved by my mind. This is supplemented by the fact that individuals percieved as existing by my mind can disagree with my assured view of the current state of reality. Should this reality only have existed within my own mind, their existence would simply not be comprehensible. I would have no impetuous to even imagine of them being possible - like a caveman thinking of what a computer is.
What do you think?
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"Cogito ergo sum"
If that's not enough, then we'll need the squirt bottle.
Ditto. I think, therefore I am. Perhaps it is impossible to trace the true genesis of our sensory perception, but at the least, we can prove our minds exist.
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What do you think?
that could perhaps rule out the 'having a dream' type possibilities, but it does not rule out the 'stuck in the matrix' type ones, perhaps you could not think of it but that does not mean that some thing else (aliens/machines/demons/computer scientists) could not think of it and put you into a dream world populated by it.
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What do you think?
that could perhaps rule out the 'having a dream' type possibilities, but it does not rule out the 'stuck in the matrix' type ones, perhaps you could not think of it but that does not mean that some thing else (aliens/machines/demons/computer scientists) could not think of it and put you into a dream world populated by it.
Hm...true, if they could conceive of beings that do not conform to your belief standard, then they could populate the world with them. However, that means then that there is at least a universe outside of your own mind for those aliens to exist in. Whether or not you experience their reality or a giant simulation is unknown, though.
I think the best way to solve these sorts of puzzles is to attempt to find recursive solutions that prove themselves. I'll have to think about your problem more.
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There's no way to know or prove that you're not "in a matrix". Fortunately, it doesn't really matter whether you are or not.
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There is no way to prove you're not a Boltzmann brain, which requires neither an outside reality nor an agent controlling the simulation. Nor is it limited by the capacity of your imagination.
It's the ultimate extension of this thought process.
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Something seems to exist
perception is not reality, how do you know that what you sense is true.
It is true that reality is the reason for your perception. Not really helpful.. this thread is in desperate need of some unwarranted claims regarding properties of reality!
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Something seems to exist
perception is not reality, how do you know that what you sense is true.
It is true that reality is the reason for your perception. Not really helpful.. this thread is in desperate need of some unwarranted claims regarding properties of reality!
re·al·i·ty
[ree-al-i-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural re·al·i·ties for 3, 5–7.
1.
the state or quality of being real.
2.
resemblance to what is real.
3.
a real thing or fact.
4.
real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5.
Philosophy .
a.
something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b.
something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.
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It is true that reality is the reason for your perception.
this is what we are trying to prove.
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The basic problem is this, we cannot confirm our senses independent of our senses. i.e. we might all be in a matrix, or having a dream, or be characters in someone else's dream. Can we know that reality exists at all?
No.
If we define reality as the physical universe it appears to be, then I don't think we can, however, if we define it slightly looser, maybe as 'the source from which our sensory information originates' then perhaps we can? if this works, and we can know that reality does in fact exist, can we know if our actions truly are effecting it?
No.
we have some philosophy majors here right?
Fortunately not.
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I thought we had two or three...
and could you elaborate on you second answer?
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I'ma go with reality = "the source from which our sensory information originates". We must make do with the inputs we have available to us.
How does one determine that an input is unreliable, if not by reflecting upon previous input?
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It is true that reality is the reason for your perception.
this is what we are trying to prove.
But what is there to prove? Something that exists created your inputs. What exists is part of reality.
I guess you're actually asking, can you really know the meaning or ultimate cause of your inputs? I don't believe you can. Even if you created a theory that explains every detail of the observable universe, how would you know it's not just a projection of a larger reality?
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[philosph]
"I think therefore I am" is useful, but you also have to believe that everybody else also exists. Reality is not just about what you can observe, but the belief that there are things happening that you can't observe. Other people's thoughts, physics, trees falling in forests, and what not all will happen without you around, and will continue happening after you're gone.
A dream wouldn't do that. A simulation with you as the only entity wouldn't do that.
A 'matrix' or simulation where all entities are sentient would be, by all definitions, real. Or at least real enough to not matter.
[/phil]
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How does one determine that an input is unreliable, if not by reflecting upon previous input?
all that tells you is it seems consistent, not that it is true.
how would you know it's not just a projection of a larger reality?
you would at least have a very useful tool for manipulating that projection to your liking.
you also have to believe that everybody else also exists.
no you don't. I wouldn't recoment holding that position, but there honestly is no way for me to know for sure that you are actually a living human being.
A dream wouldn't do that. A simulation with you as the only entity wouldn't do that.
how can you know that? first off how do you know that the world doesn't disappear when you aren't looking at it, and then reappears in a state consistent with it's previous state when you turn back and look at it again? more importaintly, why would you assume a simulation wouldn't do all of that?
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you also have to believe that everybody else also exists.
no you don't. I wouldn't recoment holding that position, but there honestly is no way for me to know for sure that you are actually a living human being.
Exactly! I know I exist, because I'm sitting here thinking about existing. You know you exist (I assume) because you're doing the same thing.
I don't know you exist, because I can't see inside your brain that you're thinking about existing, and vice versa. So I am forced to believe that you, and everyone else, exists and experiences and defines reality by their thinking, the only logical alternative for me being malignant narcissism.
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I thought we had two or three...
and could you elaborate on you second answer?
No redefinition of anything is going to make certain that "our actions truly are effecting it."
Christopher Hitchens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpA7pfR0FIc&feature=g-vrec&context=G2114b4bRVAAAAAAAACw) would probably agree.
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So I am forced to believe that you, and everyone else, exists and experiences and defines reality by their thinking, the only logical alternative for me being malignant narcissism.
you are not forced to anything, you totally can go on not accepting reality, it just is not practical. being impractical does not mean you are forced not to believe it.