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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Legate Damar on April 26, 2012, 01:47:50 am

Title: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Legate Damar on April 26, 2012, 01:47:50 am
Every mod I have played has featured only instrumental music, I was wondering if putting lyrical music in a mission would be a good idea? Or would it be too distracting in the heat of battle?
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: headdie on April 26, 2012, 02:00:19 am
There is nothing technically stopping you.

but, remember that the lyrics grab human attention even if in another language, which in this case take concentration away from playing the game
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: Nuke on April 26, 2012, 02:15:43 am
only if its metal.

the reason is metal, despite having lyrics, they are not usually the focus of the music. pop, country, rap, rock, etc, are all lyrically driven genres. metalheads are never like "man the lyrics to raining blood are so deep, theyve really inspired me", its more like "man thats a badass riff and those ****ing drums are brutal! yea theyre saying stuff but im not sure what theyre saying and i really dont care. maybe il look it up on metal archives one day when i get bored with that riff". ive been into metal for years and i still dont know what raining blood's lyrics are about.
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: headdie on April 26, 2012, 02:21:36 am
ive been into metal for years and i still dont know what raining blood's lyrics are about.

does anyone?  I think i looked it up once and i still cant tell you
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: Nuke on April 26, 2012, 02:25:48 am
exactly my point. which is why metal, even metal with lyrics, is the ultimate video game music. some would argue for techno, orchestrations, industrial or some kind of mash of styles. but thats the stuff i mute so i can listen to 80s black metal.
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: TrashMan on April 26, 2012, 03:05:21 am
exactly my point. which is why metal, even metal with lyrics, is the ultimate video game music. some would argue for techno, orchestrations, industrial or some kind of mash of styles. but thats the stuff i mute so i can listen to 80s black metal.

No.

Music selecton should depend on the setting, atmosphere and mood you want to invoke.

The idea that metal fits everywhere is ridicolous. But if you mute anythig that isn't metal and only listen to metal, then you're not really interested in expereincing the atmosphere the game wants to create in the first place.

Personally I think metal sucks 99,99% of the time.
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: Legate Damar on April 26, 2012, 03:39:38 am
I misnamed the title of the thread. Sorry.
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: Mongoose on April 26, 2012, 03:48:58 am
You should be able to change the thread title if you go back and edit your original post.
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: Nuke on April 26, 2012, 03:59:40 am
exactly my point. which is why metal, even metal with lyrics, is the ultimate video game music. some would argue for techno, orchestrations, industrial or some kind of mash of styles. but thats the stuff i mute so i can listen to 80s black metal.

No.

Music selecton should depend on the setting, atmosphere and mood you want to invoke.

The idea that metal fits everywhere is ridicolous. But if you mute anythig that isn't metal and only listen to metal, then you're not really interested in expereincing the atmosphere the game wants to create in the first place.

Personally I think metal sucks 99,99% of the time.


99.99% of any genre sucks. thats just the nature of the music industry.
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: -Norbert- on April 26, 2012, 04:08:55 am
It's really situational, wether a song with lyrics fits or not.
In most circumstance I'd be against it, but if the atmosphere allows it, it can work well.
An example what I mean would be the fight against the ELS in the Gundam 00 movie. Most of the time you don't have lyrics during the fights (only chanting or ohs and ahs and such from the choire, but no words) but in the scene were, among other things, Andrei Smirnov sacrifices himself, they play a sad song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVCUn8bPcvs
Or the final scenes in "Record of Lososs war" where "Wind, Birds and Sky - Reincarnation" plays, after Ashrams death. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-DVepkn4Is&feature=relmfu starting at 6:10. Ignore the language, it's irrelevant for this discussion anyway - though in retrospect it makes me wonder how I could ever watch that in german... the german synchro SUCKS. Japanese with subtitels FTW.
In both cases the sound effects and voices volume is toned down for greater effect of the songs.

Though that were movies/series, wether it works well in a game too is something that had to be tried out I guess. For in-game cutscenes it certainly can work, if done right.
Title: Re: Every mod I have played has featured only instrument music, I was wondering if p
Post by: Vip on April 26, 2012, 04:31:15 am
It's really situational, wether a song with lyrics fits or not.
In most circumstance I'd be against it, but if the atmosphere allows it, it can work well.
An example what I mean would be the fight against the ELS in the Gundam 00 movie. Most of the time you don't have lyrics during the fights (only chanting or ohs and ahs and such from the choire, but no words) but in the scene were, among other things, Andrei Smirnov sacrifices himself, they play a sad song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVCUn8bPcvs
Or the final scenes in "Record of Lososs war" where "Wind, Birds and Sky - Reincarnation" plays, after Ashrams death. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-DVepkn4Is&feature=relmfu starting at 6:10. Ignore the language, it's irrelevant for this discussion anyway - though in retrospect it makes me wonder how I could ever watch that in german... the german synchro SUCKS. Japanese with subtitels FTW.
In both cases the sound effects and voices volume is toned down for greater effect of the songs.

Though that were movies/series, wether it works well in a game too is something that had to be tried out I guess. For in-game cutscenes it certainly can work, if done right.

QFT.
Lyrics can be and have been used with great result in cutscenes - just look at how Aqua Vitae affects the last cutscene of Blue Planet: WiH, or how masterfully the credits are done there with Origa's singing. However, it would be hard to implement properly in-mission - trying to be aware of my surroundings AND trying to read/listen to all the dialogues is already hard enough for my concentration, and distracting song lyrics are the last thing I need.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: MatthTheGeek on April 26, 2012, 05:01:35 am
This poll lacks a "whatever suits the modder" option. Because I don't feel like "omg I want lyrics in mah music nao" neither "omg lyrics are evil".
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: TrashMan on April 26, 2012, 05:39:30 am
99.99% of any genre sucks. thats just the nature of the music industry.

more like 50%. 99% numebr is onyl for metal.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: redsniper on April 26, 2012, 08:26:35 am
Ridiculous did it. I say go for it. I like when mods try something different.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Snail on April 26, 2012, 09:02:42 am
Much like Vassago's Dirge, Just Another Day displayed how interesting new mission concepts can be based around novel use of musical scores.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: IronBeer on April 26, 2012, 10:31:44 am
Ridiculous did it. I say go for it. I like when mods try something different.
The only time a lyric-ed song played during an actual fight was during the final mission, and players could afford to kick back a bit during that sequence.

It can certainly be done, but remember that people can only pay attention to so many things at once. Moreover, if you're planning a lot of voiced messages during sequences with lyrical music, those messages will be competing against the music for the player's attention. This "attention competition" is probably the main reason why any tracks with a vocal component usually have some sort of chanting rather than actual lyrics. Also, the usual considerations should be given to the tone of music and the tone of the mission.

To be clear, feel free to try it, but give some serious thought to how well it'll work during a fight. Players will have plenty of things to focus on, and as a mission designer, you want to try to avoid making things unnecessarily hard on them.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: swashmebuckle on April 26, 2012, 11:58:09 am
While it's true that the human voice is a magnet for people's attention, there are many pieces and styles of music that use sung or spoken texts in ways that do not draw focus in the same way that the more typical "lead vocals" do.  For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61n_iOhgcVQ&feature=relmfu
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Droid803 on April 26, 2012, 12:03:33 pm
I think its fine as long as there's no shooting involved, as then it's not really distracting from anything.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: -Norbert- on April 26, 2012, 03:18:42 pm
There is something I just thought of: Wingmen babble!
If you have music with lyrics, the wingmen comments and death-screams might be problematic. Imagine a nice song and right into it a your wingman screams "NICE SHOT SIR"...
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Dragon on April 26, 2012, 03:23:18 pm
99.99% of any genre sucks. thats just the nature of the music industry.

more like 50%. 99% numebr is onyl for metal.
Then you have a very "broad" taste in music (or lucky enough to mostly know of the good ones). I'd say that 90% is a good average percentage for any industry or art (not only music), 99% if you're picky. See Sturdgeon's Law.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Nuke on April 26, 2012, 05:47:56 pm
99.99% of any genre sucks. thats just the nature of the music industry.

more like 50%. 99% numebr is onyl for metal.

:lol:

you either get metal or you dont, you obviously dont.
and i do listen to other genres you know. when im listening to country music (yes nuke likes _some_ country, it appeals to his inner redneck), some cash, hank I/II/III, some coe (the **** from the 70s with the profane as **** lyrics), any of the outlaw ****, are good, but i really dont care about most of it. the **** they play on the country station doesnt even register as country to me, most of it is either right wing propaganda or ****ty pop country. i love the country and metal tracks in starcraft 2, i always crank my speaks when those come up. :D

my theory about why so much crappy music is this:

most people are dumbasses. and as a result are hooked by simple concepts, like 3 chord songs, sexual themes (people are perverts and sex sells). anything shallow will sell big, because most people are shallow individuals. this creates a situatiuon where artists, who are not very good, and through shear marketing to the heard is enough to make them big. why do you think **** like classical and opera are so unpopular with the heard. the quality of the music is top notch, so why the **** dont you see cars full of teenagers blasting bach or wagner? because the industry rides the teen market and floods it with music with lyrical themes that are relevant to them, and they buy it up in droves.

and as far as games go, especially games where you have hulking spacecraft, big stompy mechs, warfare, blood, what have you. metal fits in all of them kinds of games, freespace included.

and this song (or at least an excerpt of it, its kind of long and drawn out in some places) is absolutely begging to be put in freespace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS6HXQa9uME

good one for a suicide mission into shivan space. play it with into the lions den. the song structure has a good parallel with that mission. the long lead in gets you past dive dive dive, and the intelligible lyrics play while you cross space to the first comm node. during the combat parts they lyrics are not in english (this song seems to have lyrics in several different languages). and the finale of the song coincides with the run like hell for the node portion of the mission. and this brings up a good point, find a good structured song, and design a mission around it. make the combat occur during the solo. i mean theres a lot you can do to make the gameplay fit in well with a particular song.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Legate Damar on April 27, 2012, 12:50:56 am
There is something I just thought of: Wingmen babble!
If you have music with lyrics, the wingmen comments and death-screams might be problematic. Imagine a nice song and right into it a your wingman screams "NICE SHOT SIR"...

So far my wingmen messages have no voice acting.

If someone wants to try voice acting my campaign in the future though that could be a problem

Quote
good one for a suicide mission into shivan space.

In my campaign you play as the Shivans so it would have to be into the space of enemies of the Shivans (which is... everybody. For the most part.)
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: -Norbert- on April 27, 2012, 03:58:52 am
But the current AI fighters comment, even if you don't give them custom personas (I think that's what those auto-messages are called... not 100% sure though), so even without any voice acting they will comment on player kills, being shot or having to reload, unless you can deactivate that somehow, or make a persona with only blank soundfiles, so only the text-message is sent.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: ssmit132 on April 27, 2012, 04:58:30 am
You can disable wingmen and/or Command auto-messaging in FRED2_Open either globally or on a ship-per-ship basis.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Legate Damar on April 27, 2012, 05:51:25 am
I just have it as sending a beep or generic sound every time a message is sent
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: karajorma on April 27, 2012, 06:39:13 am
You can disable wingmen and/or Command auto-messaging in FRED2_Open either globally or on a ship-per-ship basis.

And the mission does sound empty without them. So unless you have a story related reason for it, you probably shouldn't.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Spoon on April 27, 2012, 06:52:18 am
Quote from: nuke
and this song (or at least an excerpt of it, its kind of long and drawn out in some places) is absolutely begging to be put in freespace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS6HXQa9uME
If anyone would put this kind of rubbish in a freespace campaign, I wouldn't know how fast to turn off the music... Or how fast I would just uninstall the whole campaign.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Fury on April 27, 2012, 07:01:47 am
^agreed
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 27, 2012, 07:51:21 am
Quote from: nuke
and this song (or at least an excerpt of it, its kind of long and drawn out in some places) is absolutely begging to be put in freespace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS6HXQa9uME

I listened to all 14 minutes... That was awful. Reminds of the modern music trend where people pluck piano strings and other weird ways to use their instruments. Then they just make some noise without any rhyme or reason and argue that it's music.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Legate Damar on April 27, 2012, 08:07:22 am
I agree, I stopped listening to that song at about 3 minutes in, I did not like it
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: headdie on April 27, 2012, 08:09:22 am
It has its merits, but not my style, and certainly not good bg music.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: swashmebuckle on April 27, 2012, 11:12:22 am
Quote from: nuke
and this song (or at least an excerpt of it, its kind of long and drawn out in some places) is absolutely begging to be put in freespace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS6HXQa9uME

I listened to all 14 minutes... That was awful. Reminds of the modern music trend where people pluck piano strings and other weird ways to use their instruments. Then they just make some noise without any rhyme or reason and argue that it's music.
While modernism in music has never made things easy for the audience, screwing up the piano has a long and proud tradition and has resulted in some great stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUTXNxFvjDw
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Nuke on April 27, 2012, 04:22:17 pm
you all completely missed the point i was trying to make. that a mission can be designed around a song. i cant expect every mundane to appreciate celtic frost. :D
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: MatthTheGeek on April 27, 2012, 04:55:09 pm
a mission can be designed around a song.
Well, we kinda know that. We all played Vassago's Dirge, remember.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: headdie on April 27, 2012, 05:56:43 pm
a mission can be designed around a song.
Well, we kinda know that. We all played Vassago's Dirge, remember.
:nervous:
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Spoon on April 27, 2012, 06:17:10 pm
a mission can be designed around a song.
Well, we kinda know that. We all played Vassago's Dirge, remember.
:nervous:
-200000 respect points lost for headdie

 :(
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: headdie on April 27, 2012, 06:30:07 pm
a mission can be designed around a song.
Well, we kinda know that. We all played Vassago's Dirge, remember.
:nervous:
-200000 respect points lost for headdie

 :(

/me sad now

I haven't played much FS over the last year :( , WiH pt1 and WCS:DD are still waiting for me to finish
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: MatthTheGeek on April 27, 2012, 07:55:19 pm
Aaaaand, what exactly are you doing wasting time in the forums instead of playing those ?
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Killer Whale on April 28, 2012, 03:49:02 am
"-20000 respect points lost"
Isn't that the same as 20000 gained? Double negative.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: deathfun on April 28, 2012, 05:21:30 am
Every mod I have played has featured only instrumental music, I was wondering if putting lyrical music in a mission would be a good idea? Or would it be too distracting in the heat of battle?

JAD
Disco Inferno
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: MatthTheGeek on April 28, 2012, 05:40:02 am
WiH.

The end part of Delenda Est, when
Spoiler:
The Imperieuse arrives and everyone bails out.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: -Norbert- on April 28, 2012, 11:54:08 am
I suppose for some people latin doesn't count as a language then :P
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: esarai on April 28, 2012, 05:00:13 pm
Thank god Matth, I thought absolutely no one was going to mention that. 

Yeah, if you want an example of songs with Lyrics used in a mind-crushingly effective way, go play BP:WiH's Delenda Est. 

Though it's true, if you have no idea what they're saying, then it works all the better, since it blends into the background.  I think that's the main issue with lyrics is that if the player can understand them, then it detracts from the action and could interfere with voice messages.  But lyrical music can work wonders if used properly.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Scourge of Ages on April 28, 2012, 08:24:31 pm
I agree with esarai :yes:
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Bobboau on April 29, 2012, 01:22:28 pm
Ive been into metal for years and i still dont know what raining blood's lyrics are about.

could it be about atypical meteorological conditions?
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Nuke on April 29, 2012, 07:55:03 pm
i always thought it was about pissing off hippies.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: TrashMan on April 30, 2012, 04:45:13 am
you either get metal or you dont, you obviously dont.


The universal "you just don't get it" defense?

Yeah, well, I'm on the conviction that not all things are created equal and have equal worth.
And that applies to everything - from artistic styles in paintings, to music.


Quote
most people are dumbasses. and as a result are hooked by simple concepts, like 3 chord songs, sexual themes (people are perverts and sex sells). anything shallow will sell big, because most people are shallow individuals. this creates a situatiuon where artists, who are not very good, and through shear marketing to the heard is enough to make them big. why do you think **** like classical and opera are so unpopular with the heard. the quality of the music is top notch, so why the **** dont you see cars full of teenagers blasting bach or wagner? because the industry rides the teen market and floods it with music with lyrical themes that are relevant to them, and they buy it up in droves.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Nuke on April 30, 2012, 07:39:50 am
you either get metal or you dont, you obviously dont.


The universal "you just don't get it" defense?

Yeah, well, I'm on the conviction that not all things are created equal and have equal worth.
And that applies to everything - from artistic styles in paintings, to music.

its not a defense, thats just the way metal is. its always been kind of a niche genre, with a small but devoted fanbase.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Aesaar on April 30, 2012, 11:44:01 pm
Debating music preference.   This'll end well.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: noxnoctum on May 01, 2012, 03:28:38 am
The only vocal music I would stick in a game like Freespace 2 would be Lisa Gerrard, Dead Can Dance, Stellamara and other artists in that genre. (which I guess you could call neo-classical/darkwave... a lot of the singers in that genre are singing in glossolalia or are singing in Latin and in such a way that draws you into the experience rather than distracting you)

I actually think it could be pretty amazingly well suited to this kind of game actually. Modders you should check this stuff out.

Here's an example of Gerrard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiYqYPEXsJU

It fits perfectly with the epicness of space IMO. Would fit well in a scene where the battle is a lost cause and you're getting torn to shreds or as the backdrop to some cataclysmic event playing out on screen ;).

And as someone who listened to metal a ton throughout high school and college and still listens to it occasionally, I definitely don't think it fits a game like FS2. Ambient, ambient-leaning electronica, classical and the above kind of music (which I guess you could call neo-classical/darkwave)

From the rock spectrum the only thing that would be appropriate would be stuff like Mogwai though I still think the above genres would be much better.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: PeterX on May 01, 2012, 04:12:18 am
How is it with medieval instrumental music? example http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EWruBwPNBOs
or: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MbP3NDDILgo
Can this be used during battles? It´s not a must,...only a suggestion.
Peter
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Mikes on May 16, 2012, 01:19:30 pm
Let the Shivans hit the floor, let the Shivans hit the floor, let....  :)
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Legate Damar on May 16, 2012, 02:29:44 pm
There is no floor in space
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: yuezhi on May 16, 2012, 03:53:45 pm
... only if the battle is intense enough.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: DireWolf on May 16, 2012, 04:14:17 pm
SHIIIIIIIIVANNSS IN MY SKIIIIIN
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Flipside on May 23, 2012, 10:54:22 am
Ironically, I once had a great FS2 Dogfight to the tune of the cover of 'Word Up' by Gun...
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: LoneKnight on May 23, 2012, 02:03:59 pm
Depends if it is appropriate for what you are trying to convey. 'nuff said.

And also

CUT MY SHIP INTO PIECES
THIS IS MY SUBSPACE WARP
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Legate Damar on May 23, 2012, 02:12:56 pm
Depends if it is appropriate for what you are trying to convey. 'nuff said.

I was considering this song actually:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWKpDSSKhgo
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Legate Damar on June 01, 2012, 12:20:35 pm
Depends if it is appropriate for what you are trying to convey. 'nuff said.

I was considering this song actually:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWKpDSSKhgo

No opinions on whether you would like to play a mission to this music?
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: Scourge of Ages on June 01, 2012, 07:46:19 pm
No opinions on whether you would like to play a mission to this music?

I really could not imagine a serious mission with that as the soundtrack. It could fit in something like JAD or Deus Ex Machina, though.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 01, 2012, 08:19:28 pm
I'm actually really tempted to try and build a mission to Halleljuah now. Not the classical one. The Jeff Buckley one.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: JCDNWarrior on June 13, 2012, 08:32:50 am
Been trying out a lot of different music pieces for missions, there's a scant few lyrical songs that ever came through my listening or play testing, it just distracts and changes the mood drastically. Only the ones like Immediate Music, used in WiH, but they have to be placed well. If I recall correctly, that music piece has been edited somewhat to fit better than the original piece, but I suppose that may go without saying if you're planning to add custom music.

For music preferences for FS2 I suppose anything that resembles the original score is great, but also powerful drums, though they can occasionally be too loud.

On the subject, is it possible to get into trouble for uploading missions with custom music that may be copyrighted in one form or another, even if credited? It's kinda holding me back from using some good sources myself and may be important to consider for anyone.
Title: Re: Lyrical music in missions
Post by: redsniper on June 14, 2012, 08:26:20 am
It's possible but it hasn't happened yet. Lots of mods have used copyrighted music now and I think everyone is just banking on fair use and obscurity to stay out of trouble.