Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: SaltyWaffles on May 06, 2012, 05:53:35 pm
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This one is rather odd, for me. My computer should be able to handle this game fine, even on all of the high settings and high textures. And it does; most of the time it's at least 40FPS on such settings.
...except when I get close to capital ships. This is where things get odd--how much my FPS drops depends on how much of any given capital ship fills my screen. This means that, unless I'm close to one, I can still get 100+ FPS looking at a max-res/setting Lucifer.
It's worst when I try to enter the fighter bays of any given ship. It gets so bad that I'm looking at single-digit FPS usually, sometimes as bad as 4 FPS. It can get about that bad when I'm right up against a capship, almost to the point of scraping against it, but it's not as consistent then.
So I figured there was some particular feature enabled that was just not meshing well with my system, so I turned off specular, glowmaps, and mipmapping. I went back in, and though things were slightly better, it was still largely the same--instead of completely crippling the gameplay at times, it was just an extreme inconvenience and something to avoid whenever possible.
As for more specifics:
1) Approaching a Sathanas' beam cannon, even when it fills 90% of my screen, doesn't affect my performance much (at least on the lower settings, that's all I've tried it on since the fourth or so mission).
2) It's worst inside the fighter bays, where even minimal textures, no specular/glowmapping/mipmapping, and not having much to see period (like when entering the Orestes' fighter bay, which is comparatively small and simple) still kills my framerate.
3) Framerate drops are largely minimal/negligible (or at least not a problem) until I get up close, where it quickly and suddenly plummets. Even when it only fills less than half of my screen, so long as I'm CLOSE to a capship, the amount that fills my screen seems to be much worse.
4) Certain ships seem to not affect my FPS nearly as much as others; a Sathanas is, in general, much less problematic than the Temarare. It can still get bad, but usually only when I'm very close to the main body of the Sathanas, looking right at it. However, ships that (I think) are still original to FS2, like the Demon destroyers or Lilith, still cause FPS problems just as bad as ones original to Blue Planet, under the same circumstances.
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There's actually another, small problem that I'm curious about: I can't map/bind any of my mouse's thumb buttons. I can map the "Button 3" (clicking the scroll wheel down), but that's it. Strangely, there's a "Button 4" and "Button 5" premapped in the defaults, but I can't remap them and clicking them when trying to create a new bind does absolutely nothing. It's not critical, but having two very easy-access and well-positioned buttons that I can't do anything with is kind of annoying, especially when there's a million controls to this game.
As an aside note, a lore/story/setting question: the Sathanas' beam cannons seem WAAAAY more powerful than they are in FS2--a single cannon destroys a full-health Orestes in under ten seconds (potentially under 7 seconds, if it doesn't stop to recharge). The Colossus could actually go toe to toe with a Sathanas when even two of its main beam cannons were operational. So, uh, is this a story-driven thing (as in, the mission is designed/coded for you to take out all of the four cannons before they could fire, so failing that is just coded/designed to be a nonstandard game over?), or is it that the Orestes/Raynor class is actually MUCH less durable than the Colossus, even beyond a mere size difference?
Oh, and did the Temarare defect, or not? Two of the database entries seem to contradict each other in that regard. And given the ship's and that ship's command staff's interaction with the Sanctuary, I'm shocked that there are indications that it didn't--given what the 14th just went through, I'm shocked that all but a few actually wanted to carry out orders to launch a premeditated invasion of a peaceful, united, and friendly Sol, from both a military, ethical, political, and diplomatic standpoint...
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The Sath's beam cannons are unaltered from FreeSpace 2 - the Raynor-class is far less durable than the Colossus because it's a much smaller warship, built around the GTVA's new Threat Exigency agile destroyer paradigm.
The Temeraire did not defect - the GTC Duke, GTCv Labouchere, and GTL Solace (or Fortune)? defected. Even with enormous unrest within the crews of the 14th's ships, it's extremely difficult to seize control of an entire warship that dwarfs a modern CV. Once you get to War in Heaven, though, you may notice some significant action by the Temeraire's CO...
Please post a debug log so we can sort out your FPS issue!
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The Sath's beam cannons are unaltered from FreeSpace 2 - the Raynor-class is far less durable than the Colossus because it's a much smaller warship, built around the GTVA's new Threat Exigency agile destroyer paradigm.
The Temeraire did not defect - the GTC Duke, GTCv Labouchere, and GTL Solace (or Fortune)? defected. Even with enormous unrest within the crews of the 14th's ships, it's extremely difficult to seize control of an entire warship that dwarfs a modern CV. Once you get to War in Heaven, though, you may notice some significant action by the Temeraire's CO...
Please post a debug log so we can sort out your FPS issue!
On the debug log--how exactly do I get this one? Is it the same as the log that you use for crashes? I'll go and try, but I wasn't aware it recorded stuff like that.
Hopefully it might help with other, minor issues I still haven't fully understood yet. Like the total lack of music when replaying missions in the mission simulator.
EDIT: IMPORTANT! I'm using 3.6.12r SSE2 Final (Inferno 2, I think?). Isn't the 3.6.14 an optional, unpolished new build? Why does the War In Heaven DL thread say I need it?
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For the debug log. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.msg1180359#msg1180359)
Obviously if the release thread says you need .14, that means you REALLY need it. .14 had features required by newest version of BP that .12 doesn't.
The Collie had 800k HP. The Raynor has 140k. So you do the maths. And even then, the Colie was easily killed by a few BFRed shots, and given the horrifying fire rate of those things, it's down in mere seconds too.
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The Sath's beam cannons are unaltered from FreeSpace 2 - the Raynor-class is far less durable than the Colossus because it's a much smaller warship, built around the GTVA's new Threat Exigency agile destroyer paradigm.
The Temeraire did not defect - the GTC Duke, GTCv Labouchere, and GTL Solace (or Fortune)? defected. Even with enormous unrest within the crews of the 14th's ships, it's extremely difficult to seize control of an entire warship that dwarfs a modern CV. Once you get to War in Heaven, though, you may notice some significant action by the Temeraire's CO...
Please post a debug log so we can sort out your FPS issue!
On the lore stuff:
1) Okay, except that it still doesn't make sense that it's THAT fragile...given that it doesn't seem all that fast or maneuverable, unless being able to jump to subspace once every 10 minutes is worth the huge loss in durability.
2) That's what I figured, but it still doesn't make any sense. There SHOULDN'T be many people on the ship, period, willing to carry out that order, and I'm sure that most would be appalled at the very notion that an order like that was ever given. But it doesn't take the entire ship, it just takes the command staff/bridge staff. They all heard Admiral Bei's spiel and defection, as well as Captain Bei's spiel and defection. Plus, nothing sends a strong message of protest to the GTVA High Command like a top-of-the-line destroyer defecting witihn a few minutes of an order being given. That alone might have ended the war right there (or at least ensured it), via diplomacy. It's the kind of thing that would make the High Command seriously rethink its chosen strategy--that there might be a way to save the GTVA by "acquiring" Sol through diplomatic means. The resulting negotiations wouldn't have to result in much in the way of concessions--I'm sure that the Elders would have been willing to agree to quite a lot in return for peace and alliance. Subservience, and ratification of the BETAC? Sure. At that point, LET the Elders and Ubuntu remain; the benefits of saving the GTVA from collapse/fracturing, acquiring Sol's massive intrastructure and economy/population, keeping the ships/fleets of both the UEF and GTVA via peace instead of war, immediate sharing of technology, improvement of relations with the Vasudans, and a massive cultural/political/morale boost to the GTVA is WAY more than worth the potential for nonmilitaristic views to spread culturally. When you're in power over them and controlling the military power, as well as a lot of the economy, who cares? You can counteract it if it ever becomes a problem.
Personally, I think the dichotomy of invading Sol or the collapse of the GTVA is a false dichotomy, and inherently incorrect. Invading Sol RESULTS in the collapse of the GTVA--invading your own homeworld after feeling like a Lost Generation is utterly anathema for morale, sense of purpose and belonging, and countering negative cultural views of the GTVA as militaristic, oppressive, and arrogant. Frankly, there's no way the Security Council wouldn't have known that before deciding to invade Sol.
It gets worse, and worse, and worse, from there. The entire 14th Battlegroup, which was supposed to spearhead the invasion, and is composed of some of the best people and ships in the GTVA, resigned, defected, or outright disappeared (and not from combat/action)--how is that going to look to everyone else in the GTVA? It's not something you can brush under the rug--it's an ENTIRE BATTLEGROUP of some of the best and most famous people and ships. Even if you somehow classify the entire thing and use blatant propaganda and misinformation, rumors spread, people notice, and morale (among other things) takes a plunge. Nothing says "working for the bad guys" like your own fellow soldiers completely disappearing into "classified" and "somewhere" (and obviously not due to enemy action) en masse. Oh, and the defections. Can't forget the defections. Of, you know, your best and brightest, most decorated, and their advanced new ships, outright defecting within minutes of being ordered to invade.
Propaganda isn't going to cut it. Even if everyone believes that the UEF is a bunch of religious radicals, it's going to hurt when you cut them down en masse, mercilessly cut apart their ships with beam cannons, or try to establish dominance over EARTH. It's a Civil War with your side launching a surprise, premeditated invasion of the other side and starting the whole thing, and they're your homeworld. It's going to hurt just pulling the trigger, as well as the whole idea of it, regardless of how much you believe it justified.
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For the debug log. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.msg1180359#msg1180359)
Obviously if the release thread says you need .14, that means you REALLY need it. .14 had features required by newest version of BP that .12 doesn't.
The Collie had 800k HP. The Raynor has 140k. So you do the maths. And even then, the Colie was easily killed by a few BFRed shots, and given the horrifying fire rate of those things, it's down in mere seconds too.
I'll get it posted here in less than 15 minutes.
As for the Colossus--it didn't seem to be easily killed by a few BFRed shots. Maybe my playing on lower difficulties meant that the RoF was slower (as in, not constant), which would help explain it.
Still, that's quite bizarre, the whole setup. Helios-equipped bombers can take out one of the four beam cannons in a single bombing run. Those lesser bombs--Cyclops?--though less powerful, are still more than powerful enough to do the job in a few hits (or just a few bombers attacking at once). Considering how much cheaper and more cost effective that is (and how effective fighters are against larger ships in general, when equipped with the right weapons, which can be cheap and widely available), why isn't that tactic used more often? It was pretty easy both times. Well, except when the Helios lockon sequence was insanely broken (yes, I'm literally an inch away from the massive turret in front of me, and you're telling me you can't lock on? Or that you can't dumbfire, because there's a chance you could miss the target AN INCH AWAY? Or that you need more than 25 seconds to lock on to hit a target larger than a frigate at an inch away?).
Still, Raynors should be a lot beefier than that. Or, alternatively, much cheaper/faster to produce--which they should be.
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The tactical capabilities of the Raynor class are pretty impressive and will really get to shine in WiHR2.
The Raynor isn't built to tank the full damage output of a Sathanas. The Colossus might have been better at taking BFRed hits...but with 80 Sathanases of Colossus-melting firepower to contend with, the GTVA decided there was no point trying to build a ship that could survive direct engagement, so the Raynor's capabilities are focused more on evasion (via subspace and sublight maneuvering) until its air wings can do the job. (The Raynor is also several orders of magnitude (that may be hyperbole) cheaper and faster to produce.) Putting the same amount of resources that it takes to build a Colossus into building Raynors gives a more effective force.
It's always great to have a thoughtful fan. :yes: Remember that this issue is extraordinarily divisive in-universe as well as out, and that the GTVA is fighting a war against time in terms of how long its own civilian and military morale will hold. There are many within the GTVA who believe that the war is as pointless and badly justified as you do.
Given the amount of words spilled both in the Blue Planet techroom and on the forums on the topics of tactical doctrine and the whole issue of defection and the justification of the GTVA-UEF war, you should have plenty of reading material. If you still don't buy it, well, we did our best, and I hope you can still enjoy the campaign!
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Considering how much cheaper and more cost effective that is (and how effective fighters are against larger ships in general, when equipped with the right weapons, which can be cheap and widely available), why isn't that tactic used more often?
What do you mean 'why isn't that tactic used more often?' Disabling the main beams of a Sathanas with massed bomber attack is standard GTVA doctrine post-TEI - you can check out the techroom weapon entry on BFReds.
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Okay, here's the log. Note that, in my stupidity, I installed the updated shaders (that are required for the 3.6.14 release); this definitely affected my framerate. It was much lower in general, but the real problems are still clear as day and essentially the same in nature, and I try to demonstrate it as well as possible.
I hope the log actually reflects/records that...
As for other differences caused by the updated shaders: the beginning cutscene is MUCH darker than I remember it being before. It also features reflections of light over ship hulls, and more detail in general (or so it seemed). However, my framerate was still acceptable...except when demonstrating the issue, which worked mostly the same way.
[attachment deleted by a ninja]
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peaceful, united, and friendly Sol, from both a military, ethical, political, and diplomatic standpoint...
I feel that it needs to be pointed out that the Renjian actually moves to engage the 14th after the demand to stand down, before any shots have been fired. There is no "wait, can't we talk about this?", there's just "Bugger off, ready weapons to engage."
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For the Temeraire: Sure, Admiral Carey wanted to defect. But if, say, the ship's captain didn't, then he/she would be entirely within his/her rights to remove her from command, which is probably what happened. Keep in mind that not everyone believes the GTVA is in the wrong. Hell, it's only after the whole parallel universe incident that Admiral Bei changed his mind. Before the 14th went through the jump node, he was fully aware and perfectly willing to carry out the plan, and so were the other flag officers of the 14th (who I think knew, since Morian obviously did). Also note that only ships that had prolonged contact with the Vishnans defected. Had the Vishnans not interfered (and I'm convinced AoA is all their doing), the original invasion plan would have gone off without a hitch. For some reason, they wanted this 18 month cluster**** to happen.
The reason why the GTVA is invading is because they can't allow a pacifist philosophy like Ubuntu to spread, since that could too easily result in a severe weakening of the GTVA military, leaving them vulnerable to the Shivans. To them, survival is more important than anything beneficial Ubuntu can bring to the table. Dismantling the UEF is a necessary evil. Given the information we have at the moment, I'm inclined to agree.
WiH is demonstating something, and that's that the UEF is disturbingly fragile in the face of a stronger enemy not interested in diplomacy. If they're having trouble with the GTVA, how would they cope with the Shivans? Can Ubuntu even survive in an environment like that? We start seeing it slip over the course of this campaign, and that's small potatoes compared to what the Shivans can do. The GTVA is paranoid, but they have a damn good reason to be.
I think that the existence of the UEF paradise was utterly contingent upon its isolation from the rest of the galaxy. The GTA couldn't survive the Isolation, and the UEF may not survive Reunion. It appears one can't exist in the other's environment.
My point is: Don't dismiss the GTVA viewpoint so casually. This war is very morally grey.
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The tactical capabilities of the Raynor class are pretty impressive and will really get to shine in WiHR2.
The Raynor isn't built to tank the full damage output of a Sathanas. The Colossus might have been better at taking BFRed hits...but with 80 Sathanases of Colossus-melting firepower to contend with, the GTVA decided there was no point trying to build a ship that could survive direct engagement, so the Raynor's capabilities are focused more on evasion (via subspace and sublight maneuvering) until its air wings can do the job. (The Raynor is also several orders of magnitude (that may be hyperbole) cheaper and faster to produce.) Putting the same amount of resources that it takes to build a Colossus into building Raynors gives a more effective force.
It's always great to have a thoughtful fan. :yes: Remember that this issue is extraordinarily divisive in-universe as well as out, and that the GTVA is fighting a war against time in terms of how long its own civilian and military morale will hold. There are many within the GTVA who believe that the war is as pointless and badly justified as you do.
Given the amount of words spilled both in the Blue Planet techroom and on the forums on the topics of tactical doctrine and the whole issue of defection and the justification of the GTVA-UEF war, you should have plenty of reading material. If you still don't buy it, well, we did our best, and I hope you can still enjoy the campaign!
e:
Considering how much cheaper and more cost effective that is (and how effective fighters are against larger ships in general, when equipped with the right weapons, which can be cheap and widely available), why isn't that tactic used more often?
What do you mean 'why isn't that tactic used more often?' Disabling the main beams of a Sathanas with massed bomber attack is standard GTVA doctrine post-TEI - you can check out the techroom weapon entry on BFReds.
Thanks! I kind of learned the BP storyline in bits and pieces (and very out of order), but I know a lot of detail on the background and setting for WiH, even if I know almost nothing about the actual missions/gameplay itself.
I'll write up a detailed plot/setting analysis a bit later, in the proper section. While not an extraordinary writer by any means, when I put real time and effort into it, I think my plot/setting/worldbuilding/realism talents can go a long way. My actual execution of the details, without something to already run with/base off of, is comparatively bad, but I'm working on it.
Initially, I found the premise of WiH to be really stupid, but rather understandable (in some ways) by the necessity of the medium; peace doesn't mesh well with a space combat sim. But it CAN be done well--though that's not relevant. As I played through AoA, read more of the database/archive material, and more, I came to understand it better and appreciate it a lot more. I still have a few very key criticisms, but on the whole I think you guys did an amazing job in setting up WiH--I haven't seen grand-level plot design/execution that good in a game since...I don't know; maybe DE:HR (from a certain perspective). You've accomplished so much with so little, and even though it's a bit rough around the edges, the important parts are all excellent, and there's enough polish to make it all work. I imagine the voice acting was an extremely critical part of that, though--imperfect though it may have been, it was still great and an vital part to the whole experience. I'm kind of afraid that I'm setting myself up for disappointment by playing WiH part 1 and not readjusting my expectations/perspective going into it, when there's no voice acting. I would love to contribute in that regard, though my voice is probably only acceptable in niche roles/dialogue.
As for the Raynor--not disagreeing in that regard at all. I'd much, much rather have two Raynors than a Colossus. I suppose the whole "who cares about heavy armor" notion makes a lot of sense, though I would have thought a Raynor would have much more than 140,000HP even without super heavy armor; except for a few structural weak points (why is the ship's bow and stern connected by three not-quite-sturdy "columns"? That seems like a major structural weakness to me), it's a pretty sturdy looking ship.
As for the GTVA's (military) general morale and opinion--we're in agreement; I'm mostly perplexed at the severely underwhelming response of the 14th BG in AoA's final mission; their predicament, unique and relevant as it is to that situation, seemed to warrant a mass-defection--which would make the notion of Sol vs. GTVA much more intuitive and believable. Reading the material--which I'm loving, by the way, despite any criticisms I have on the details--I was totally confused when it mentioned stuff like how a major logistical beachhead needed to be set up to support more than one destroyer in Sol (they're Battlestars. Their main weapons are beams, powered by meson reactors. They shouldn't need THAT much logistical support to operate, especially considering that at the end of the day, all they need is to in-system jump back to the node, and then jump to DS to get a full resupply).
Where is the UEF's beam cannons? After all, they got shining examples of several different, top of the line beam cannons (and their ships/setups), and months with which to figure them out and make their own. Why haven't they? Isn't Sol supposed to have a massive industry and economy, as well as a ton of antimatter? Even if they're hoping for a peaceful resolution, it's a weapon that would help them defend themselves much better, and is pretty much necessary for taking on Shivan capships effectively. At some point, you're going to want the infrastructure, supply of, and expertise for beam cannons.
But again, overall, I loved it. I've got a final tomorrow, and a small project/assignment to finish tonight, but I'm itching to play WiHP1. My only dissapointment is that I never got a chance to use the Pegasus in a combat mission in AoA and probably won't get to in WiHP1. That thing is so much more maneuverable it's crazy. If I could swap out the missile pod for another gun mount/slot, I'd love it to death (3-4 of those...Banons? The new Morning Stars? Four of those and the Pegasus would be incredibly deadly in the right hands).
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The beam cannons the UEF got from the Labouchere and Duke were ultra-modern, top of the lime beam cannons, which probably worked against them. Blue beams were designed to run with similarly ultra-modern grids powered by meson reactors, which the UEF does not have. FS2 era green beams were designed to work with Great War era power grids like on the Orion and Fenris. They might have been able to work something out by now if they'd gotten one of those, but alas. And anyway, 18 months is a very short time to engineer an entirely new weapon your engineers have no experience with whatsoever.
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For the Temeraire: Sure, Admiral Carey wanted to defect. But if, say, the ship's captain didn't, then he/she would be entirely within his/her rights to remove her from command, which is probably what happened. Keep in mind that not everyone believes the GTVA is in the wrong. Hell, it's only after the whole parallel universe incident that Admiral Bei changed his mind. Before the 14th went through the jump node, he was fully aware and perfectly willing to carry out the plan, and so were the other flag officers of the 14th (who I think knew, since Morian obviously did). Also note that only ships that had prolonged contact with the Vishnans defected. Had the Vishnans not interfered (and I'm convinced AoA is all their doing), the original invasion plan would have gone off without a hitch. For some reason, they wanted this 18 month cluster**** to happen.
The reason why the GTVA is invading is because they can't allow a pacifist philosophy like Ubuntu to spread, since that could too easily result in a severe weakening of the GTVA military, leaving them vulnerable to the Shivans. To them, survival is more important than anything beneficial Ubuntu can bring to the table. Dismantling the UEF is a necessary evil. Given the information we have at the moment, I'm inclined to agree.
WiH is demonstating something, and that's that the UEF is disturbingly fragile in the face of a stronger enemy not interested in diplomacy. If they're having trouble with the GTVA, how would they cope with the Shivans? Can Ubuntu even survive in an environment like that? We start seeing it slip over the course of this campaign, and that's small potatoes compared to what the Shivans can do. The GTVA is paranoid, but they have a damn good reason to be.
I think that the existence of the UEF paradise was utterly contingent upon its isolation from the rest of the galaxy. The GTA couldn't survive the Isolation, and the UEF may not survive Reunion. It appears one can't exist in the other's environment.
My point is: Don't dismiss the GTVA viewpoint so casually. This war is very morally grey.
I fully acknowledge that I probably don't understand enough about the UEF's military capability and general attitude towards building up one's military. Still, they have enough of one to make the title of "pacifist" seem absurd--they're way more powerful, adaptive, and resilient than pacifists in a war.
It is very morally, grey, don't get me wrong. Neither side is clearly "right"--but I can certainly argue that the GTVA is stupid as hell when it comes to the UEF/Sol. It's a situation easily resolved with diplomacy, that they turned into a premediated invasion, that they turned into a drawn out war, which--again--could be solved with diplomacy.
Spread of pacifism? How in the heck would that ever happen? The Second Shivan Incursion pretty much cemented how real and powerful the threat is to everyone in the GTVA. The Vasudans are a lot like the UEF in terms of philosophy (or so I seem to gather; and only in most of the significant ways), yet they're a powerful military entity that is actively preparing for the Shivans. Having political and military control over Sol would be all that you'd need to deal with any such problem before it even becomes an issue (and that control would easily come through diplomacy, which they KNEW was an option well beforehand; that control wouldn't be total like it would through total victory, but it would be enough).
I suppose that's the heart of the matter. The UEF and GTVA don't have nearly enough reason to be enemies. They have almost every reason to be allies. And yes, that's given the above paragraph. It feels like the GTVA failed on both the diplomatic and military approaches to the UEF, yet they still don't turn to the diplomatic approach that they never really tried because they're too stupid to have common sense or any diplomatic skill whatsoever (the Security Council, I mean).
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The beam cannons the UEF got from the Labouchere and Duke were ultra-modern, top of the lime beam cannons, which probably worked against them. Blue beams were designed to run with similarly ultra-modern grids powered by meson reactors, which the UEF does not have. FS2 era green beams were designed to work with Great War era power grids like on the Orion and Fenris. They might have been able to work something out by now if they'd gotten one of those, but alas. And anyway, 18 months is a very short time to engineer an entirely new weapon your engineers have no experience with whatsoever.
The former GTVA engineers are experts on it. As well as their generators. They've got all of the specifications, expertise, designs, and prerequisite materials necessary; all they lack is the infrastructure. 18 months should be enough time for that, for sure.
And don't underestimate their skill with reverse engineering. They did it with the Shivan shield tech, and equipped it on all of their fighters, in very little time.
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OpenGL Renderer : NVS 3100M/PCIe/SSE2
I think this might be your problem. The lighting fragment shaders are quite demanding on old/subpar hardware like the quadro 3100, and they draw pixels occupied by ship surfaces. Hence, if your entire screen is filled with ship, your fps will plummet when your GPU fails to keep up. Most of the time you're at 40 fps because freespace is a whole lot of empty space in view most of the time. The shaders don't operate on empty space, and therefore won't slow you down in most cases.
At least, that's the theory I've come up with, looking at how the shader works, and what happens when I test different settings/scenarios. I have the exact same terrible slowdowns on my computer.
Lowering your resolution to 1366x768 or thereabouts will help to lower the number of pixels that the shader needs to run for. Editing the shader to cap light sources at 2 or 3 instead of 8 will help as well, but that's a fairly advanced tweak that will also seriously reduce the quality of the visuals.
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peaceful, united, and friendly Sol, from both a military, ethical, political, and diplomatic standpoint...
I feel that it needs to be pointed out that the Renjian actually moves to engage the 14th after the demand to stand down, before any shots have been fired. There is no "wait, can't we talk about this?", there's just "Bugger off, ready weapons to engage."
True, except that the UEF already had some idea that the GTVA would try to invade (or that it was a possibility). Not that it wasn't very aggressive, but that doesn't run counter to any of my points. Remember, the UEF tried diplomacy continually, even after that, and avoided attacking/killing in many occasions, too.
The UEF captain was probably uber offended by the GTVA's warmhearted and enthusiastic greeting that was shortly followed up by a demand for total surrender 'cuz all your base are belong to us, now. I mean, it WAS really pretentious and bastardly unless you know the details on the GTVA's side (given that the friendly guy and people who felt like him defected right after).
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The reason why the GTVA is invading is because they can't allow a pacifist philosophy like Ubuntu to spread, since that could too easily result in a severe weakening of the GTVA military, leaving them vulnerable to the Shivans.
Just like Edith Keeler's pacifist demonstrations in City on the Edge of Forever
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The former GTVA engineers are experts on it. As well as their generators. They've got all of the specifications, expertise, designs, and prerequisite materials necessary; all they lack is the infrastructure. 18 months should be enough time for that, for sure.
And don't underestimate their skill with reverse engineering. They did it with the Shivan shield tech, and equipped it on all of their fighters, in very little time.
The purpose of an engineer on a military vessel is the repair and maintenance of that ship's equipment. There is a significant difference between repairing and maintaining equipment and developing it. The latter will typically be done by people with doctorates, and therefore a substantial understanding of the underlying physics behind that equipment (enough to push the boundaries of what the tech could do), understanding a ship's engineer does not have to the same degree.
And you shouldn't be comparing beam cannons to shields. The former could be significantly more complex, for all we know. GTVA shields were basically as good as their Shivan equivalents at the time of FS2. This is starting to become true of their beam cannons only 50 years after having first encountered them.
Spread of pacifism? How in the heck would that ever happen? The Second Shivan Incursion pretty much cemented how real and powerful the threat is to everyone in the GTVA. The Vasudans are a lot like the UEF in terms of philosophy (or so I seem to gather; and only in most of the significant ways), yet they're a powerful military entity that is actively preparing for the Shivans. Having political and military control over Sol would be all that you'd need to deal with any such problem before it even becomes an issue (and that control would easily come through diplomacy, which they KNEW was an option well beforehand; that control wouldn't be total like it would through total victory, but it would be enough).
Don't ask me, I'm not the one who wrote it. The backstory explains that Security Council projections indicated that if Ubuntu were allowed to spread unhindered, it would spread like wildfire.
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peaceful, united, and friendly Sol, from both a military, ethical, political, and diplomatic standpoint...
I feel that it needs to be pointed out that the Renjian actually moves to engage the 14th after the demand to stand down, before any shots have been fired. There is no "wait, can't we talk about this?", there's just "Bugger off, ready weapons to engage."
True, except that the UEF already had some idea that the GTVA would try to invade (or that it was a possibility). Not that it wasn't very aggressive, but that doesn't run counter to any of my points. Remember, the UEF tried diplomacy continually, even after that, and avoided attacking/killing in many occasions, too.
The UEF captain was probably uber offended by the GTVA's warmhearted and enthusiastic greeting that was shortly followed up by a demand for total surrender 'cuz all your base are belong to us, now. I mean, it WAS really pretentious and bastardly unless you know the details on the GTVA's side (given that the friendly guy and people who felt like him defected right after).
Have you looked at the dialogue in that mission? The Renjian responds to even the "Thank God we're back home!" comments with veiled hostility. And then fires the first shots of the war mere seconds after the messages are sent. No, the diplomatic breakdown was on both sides, at least during the initial contact.
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OpenGL Renderer : NVS 3100M/PCIe/SSE2
I think this might be your problem. The lighting fragment shaders are quite demanding on old/subpar hardware like the quadro 3100, and they draw pixels occupied by ship surfaces. Hence, if your entire screen is filled with ship, your fps will plummet when your GPU fails to keep up. Most of the time you're at 40 fps because freespace is a whole lot of empty space in view most of the time. The shaders don't operate on empty space, and therefore won't slow you down in most cases.
At least, that's the theory I've come up with, looking at how the shader works, and what happens when I test different settings/scenarios. I have the exact same terrible slowdowns on my computer.
Lowering your resolution to 1366x768 or thereabouts will help to lower the number of pixels that the shader needs to run for. Editing the shader to cap light sources at 2 or 3 instead of 8 will help as well, but that's a fairly advanced tweak that will also seriously reduce the quality of the visuals.
I'm not sure which method to choose. I do play on low resolution for ME3 (to the point where it doesn't fit the screen dimensions, though it all fits at the least); I'm sure it will help a lot, but I'm worried that playing on a less-than-full screen would suck and ruin immersion, too. I think I'd prefer to cap the light sources at 2 or 3 (for ships? Or for everything? How does that work?). Could you please point me in the direction for how to do that? I'd really appreciate it.
Are there any of the "Features" settings that I should play with/change in the Launcher, then? Mainly ones that are relevant to the issue? And just as importantly, which of those settings are fine to leave on/turn on for me?
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1366x768 is 16:9, which is the same as 1600:900. Your computer should scale it up to fit the entire screen, so it'll be full screen but a bit blurrier. Reducing resolution will help the most, much more than playing with any launcher or shader settings.
Pretty much nothing in the launcher settings will help you with the sudden drop in performance except FXAA. Turn that off if it isn't off already. The other settings (normal, spec, glow, env) can give you a couple extra fps here or there, but are unlikely to help much with the minimum frame rates. Definitely not worth turning most of them off, except maybe bloom (add -bloom_intensity 0) and env maps as they are the least noticeable when missing.
tl;dr: keep everything on, but turn off FXAA. Turn off bloom and env if you really want to, but I don't recommend it.
The shader editing is a little trickier. You need to extract main-f.sdr out from the bp2-visuals1.vp, open it with notepad, find where it says #define MAX_LIGHTS 8, and change the 8 to anything you want. Acceptable numbers are 1-8, probably. Mine is set to 5.
Yeah. If it wasn't obvious yet, this last hack isn't the easiest to pull off for a newcomer, so sorry about that.
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Also, changing the resolution the game is running at shouldn't cause the game to run on less than the full screen, unless you're choosing a resolution that isn't the same aspect ratio as your screen. It should automatically stretch the reduced pixels to fit the screen, though that will likely reduce perceived sharpness.
So, i.e. if you have a 16:9 screen, 1366x768 works well, as does 1280x720; the screen should automatically scale to full screen, or there should be an option to make that happen. Unless you've got an oddball screen.
Edit: Ninja'd due to not reading Kolgena's post carefully.
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Have you looked at the dialogue in that mission? The Renjian responds to even the "Thank God we're back home!" comments with veiled hostility. And then fires the first shots of the war mere seconds after the messages are sent. No, the diplomatic breakdown was on both sides, at least during the initial contact.
That's a good point, actually. Though it wasn't veiled hostility so much as thinly veiled suspicion. But again, if the UEF expected an invasion to be a possibility, then the arrival of a massive battlegroup--complete with a MASSIVE destroyer--as the "first contact team" rather blatantly suggests hostile intent, or a sufficient reason to believe that an entire battlegroup was warranted for first contact.
But you're right; the UEF captain also screwed up royally by barely hesitating to charge the Oresties guns blazing. Granted, the Vice Admiral didn't leave much room for interpretation (or rather, negotiation), but still--he should have just jumped out of there instead of charging an entire battlegroup head on; it needlessly escalated the conflict, wasted an entire ship, and robbed the UEF of the opportunity to bring back thorough scans of the enemy ships/composition and get an early warning of it all.
The part where, in the singular negotiations attempt the GTVA accepted later, the baffled Elder representative refused the (obviously harsh and little more than total surrender) terms--and the negotiations broke down--represents, I think, a case where both sides failed diplomatically (though again, most of the blame falls on the GTVA in this issue).
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tl;dr: keep everything on, but turn off FXAA. Turn off bloom and env if you really want to, but I don't recommend it.
The shader editing is a little trickier. You need to extract main-f.sdr out from the bp2-visuals1.vp, open it with notepad, find where it says #define MAX_LIGHTS 8, and change the 8 to anything you want. Acceptable numbers are 1-8, probably. Mine is set to 5.
Yeah. If it wasn't obvious yet, this last hack isn't the easiest to pull off for a newcomer, so sorry about that.
The "You need to extract main-f.sdr out from the bp2-visuals1.vp" is the only hard one, for me. What kind of software would I need to do that? Would WinZip happen to work? And once extracted and changed, do I need to "put it back in"? If so, then how would I do it? Changing the actual part is like editing a config or coalesced.bin file. I've done that a million times.
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I'm far from the defining authority, but at least until someone with more current knowledge shows up...
You'll need a VP editor/viewer; some are listed on the wiki if you look over there. That'll let you open bp2-visuals1.vp.
After that, as far as I recall files in the actual file system take precedence over files in VP files, so if you place your edited main-f.sdr file in the correct /data location in your blueplanet2 folder FSO will pick it up and use it.
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VPView is all you'll need.
SaltyWaffles, have you seen this? (http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/ubuntufaq.html) It's a GTVI dossier prepared for the security council that outlines their rationale for the war, as well as hinting at some of the classified imperatives that have only been glimpsed in the plot so far (pay close attention during one of the early missions in WiHP1).
A large part of the GTVA's decision to go to war can be derived from their memory of the Neo-Terran rebellion, a mutiny that sprang up under harsh economic conditions and built itself around the promise of a return to Terra. With the GTVA now in harsh economic conditions, and the UEF actually available as a return to Terra, the GTVA fears that it would face an impossible choice: prevent a mass exodus to Sol, and risk rebellion, or allow a mass exodus to Sol, and witness the effective collapse of both Sol's economy and the GTVA's political and military might.
As for the cluster**** at the node, it was a cluster****. The UEF was keyed up from all the bizarre probe sightings, and Vice Admiral Morian not only just witnessed his beloved Admiral Bei defect, but he had some severe and pretty well undetected PTSD regarding the Shivans which had him on edge.
Super good thread, quality posts.
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Worth noting, I think, is that the trip to the alternate universe might actually have caused the real cluster**** at the node. Imagine, for a moment, that the 14th Battlegroup arrived through the node completely unharmed and undiverted. The UEF has not been put quite as much on edge from an additional several days' worth of probes arriving and departing without communication. The 14th is still 100% effective, and has no huge ethical split over their orders (to be sure there would be some anxiety and dissent, but not near enough to the level of ships flat out defecting). The Renjian sees an entire full strength battlegroup of sleek, impressive new vessels who's combat capabilities are completely unknown. Instead of charging into the teeth of the battlegroup, it withdraws without engaging any more than halfheartedly. The 16th Battlegroup doesn't immediately relieve the 14th, and the abortive First Battle of Neptune never happens, but the 14th instead jumps in around Earth and Lunar orbit relatively uncontested and with the strength of nearly an entire fleet of UEF frigates. Neither side wants to actually fight this close to the planet, where falling debris would kill potentially millions. Talks between the two sides commence, this time without the lives of several thousand dead naval personnel on both sides and with the GTVA in a hugely superior position. If the UEF fails to surrender, the 14th takes Earth effectively hostage. If they do, the GTVA has acheived all strategic goals going into the situation.
Instead, the Renjian saw a battered flotilla of disfigured and maimed ships. Her captain liked his chances based on the damage already sustained, and the order to stand down and prepare to be boarded could easily be a bluff from this so-called GTVA. If this ragged battlegroup is the pride of the GTVA navy, on the first re-contact with Earth, then it stands to reason that the GTVA could clearly be only months or years from complete and utter collapse. Against such decrepit ships, especially if they are of comparable firepower with his own Karuna, the Renjian's captain believes he can either stunt the invasion here, and return to Jupiter and the UEF a bona-fide war hero in an age where there are no real war heroes left, as well as bloodying the nose of the obviously already clearly shambled enemy, or he can hold them off long enough for the other ships of his squadron to arrive and finish off the crippled ships. Either way, by all appearances, the captain of the Renjian is poised to become the most famous man in the Sol system.
Appearances can be deceiving.
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Yes, that's very true, and one of the big arguments behind the 'Vishnans kidnapped the 14th' theory. Without the 14th's disappearance the GTVA executes its original plan and the UEF basically starts the war in a state of checkmate.
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VPView -> "extract to directory" will spit out the file for you.
Edit the file, don't pack it back into the VP. Instead, put it into *\blueplanet2\data\effects. Loose files in the \data\ directory override files of the same name in the VP.
Hopefully that should work and win back a few fps for you.
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Regarding the Raynor, I'd like to point out that the Orestes, despite being stranded in hostile territory with only a fraction of its escorting battlegroup, was able to force the Lucifer to retreat and repair in several direct engagements before Sam's return. Add to that the SSM capabilities and sprint drives of the Atreus and you've got an absolute monster of a ship.
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Regarding the Raynor, I'd like to point out that the Orestes, despite being stranded in hostile territory with only a fraction of its escorting battlegroup, was able to force the Lucifer to retreat and repair in several direct engagements before Sam's return. Add to that the SSM capabilities and sprint drives of the Atreus and you've got an absolute monster of a ship.
I'll give that technical suggestion a shot. Lowering the resolution definitely helped, but there are still many cases where it's a huge problem, like Delenda Est--why beam cannons looks exactly the same as laser turrets and missile launchers is beyond me. But that's for another thread...
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Yeah, which is why I'm really confused as to why the UEF didn't lose wholesale during that massive assault on Earth/Luna in WiH. Only the Solaris destroyers can give a GTVA battlegroup pause. And the GTVA has something like 5 battlegroups to the UEF's 3. And shock jump hunter killer teams, which would just thrive in such a battle. All the GTVA would have to do is take out a Solaris--or its equivalent--to deal a crippling blow to the UEF. At that point, so long as it hasn't lost a lot itself, it could just back out to lick its wounds while the UEF reels from the massive and irreplaceable morale and military loss.
I'm not sure why the Atreus retreated in that mission. It was within range of the Solaris; the other UEF ships in the area were badly damaged and their air wings had already taken massive casualties. The Solaris' air wings were likely still engaged elsewhere. The Atreus could have easily won, especially with its sprint drive allowing it to disengage whenever it wanted. Then the UEF would truly have been dealt the death blow that day.
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About the end of AoA--yeah, it makes a lot more sense now. Not that I don't think both sides are still failing diplomatically, but yeah. And the UEF can't attempt to destroy the Knossos on the other side, as any attempt would cost at least a dozen frigates and force the now-pissed-and-desperate GTVA battle groups already in Sol to essentially accept heavy losses to win the war right there. With the loss of a dozen frigates, they wouldn't stand a chance.
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I'm feeling some confusion here:
I'm not sure why the Atreus retreated in that mission. It was within range of the Solaris; the other UEF ships in the area were badly damaged and their air wings had already taken massive casualties. The Solaris' air wings were likely still engaged elsewhere. The Atreus could have easily won, especially with its sprint drive allowing it to disengage whenever it wanted. Then the UEF would truly have been dealt the death blow that day.
The Atreus and Solaris have, as far as we know, never been facing each other on the battlefield. In Darkest Hour, the only mission in which the player faces the Atreus, it is forced to retreat because of the two artillery frigates, which are capable of dealing huge damage from outside the Atreus' beam range.
Heck, we've been told that in WiH alpha, Steele was killed in its first ingame appearance, and since we know that Darkest Hour already existed at that time, I'd bet that Steele didn't retreat back then.
I also believe, iirc, that the main reason the UEF didn't lose as badly as they could during the Blitz was the swift response of the second fleet, as evidenced by the arrival of the Indus to prevent the Valerie from destroying Rheza.
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Yeah, which is why I'm really confused as to why the UEF didn't lose wholesale during that massive assault on Earth/Luna in WiH. Only the Solaris destroyers can give a GTVA battlegroup pause.
Incorrect - Narayanas and the UEF bomber corps are both a nightmare for GTVA warships.
I'm not sure why the Atreus retreated in that mission. It was within range of the Solaris; the other UEF ships in the area were badly damaged and their air wings had already taken massive casualties. The Solaris' air wings were likely still engaged elsewhere. The Atreus could have easily won, especially with its sprint drive allowing it to disengage whenever it wanted. Then the UEF would truly have been dealt the death blow that day.
Erm? Maybe I'm making a huge gaffe here, but when did we ever see the Atreus in the same mission area as the Solaris? Are you thinking of Darkest Hour? That was the Indus, a Karuna frigate.
Heck, we've been told that in WiH alpha, Steele was killed in its first ingame appearance, and since we know that Darkest Hour already existed at that time, I'd bet that Steele didn't retreat back then.
ugugughhh don't remind me. But no, Steele wasn't in the alpha Darkest Hour. I think people misapprehend exactly how different the campaign was back then - it was a shadow of what it is now.
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I'm not sure why the Atreus retreated in that mission. It was within range of the Solaris; the other UEF ships in the area were badly damaged and their air wings had already taken massive casualties. The Solaris' air wings were likely still engaged elsewhere. The Atreus could have easily won, especially with its sprint drive allowing it to disengage whenever it wanted. Then the UEF would truly have been dealt the death blow that day.
Erm? Maybe I'm making a huge gaffe here, but when did we ever see the Atreus in the same mission area as the Solaris? Are you thinking of Darkest Hour? That was the Indus, a Karuna frigate.
I believe he means 'in range' hyperbolically, as in, First Fleet was battered and in disarray giving Steele a chance to take the Atreus for a decapitation strike. The answer is that the objective was only to cripple Earth's logistics, the Solaris probably poses a significant threat to the Atreus in its own right, and even if the Atreus came out on top it would have just given First Fleet's remnants to the much more dangerous Calder and Netreba.