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Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: SaltyWaffles on May 07, 2012, 12:19:04 pm

Title: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 07, 2012, 12:19:04 pm
This is just a concept, but it seems rather simple to implement, both in story and in-game.

Basically, this is either/both a new type of fighter and/or a new class of ship.

Going off of the whole "sprint drive" capability--essentially two jump drives, so that a ship can jump in and jump out quickly--design a fighter and/or ship that is cost effective, very affordable, and a highly useful strategic and tactical asset.

I'll start with the fighter version for simplicity's sake.

It's got poor maneuverability, but good speed. Depending on which is cheaper/more practical, weak armor or weak shields. It has minimal primary gun armaments, though if it is somehow practical/viable, they'd be equipped entirely with anti-subsystem/anti-ship guns. But that part isn't really the point; most of the time, the few gun ports remain empty because they're just not needed.

Instead, this fighter jumps in, ideally within range of their long range missiles (like the Trebuchet, though I suppose Cyclops could also be equipped and used if it jumps right within range, or close to it, to begin with), targets fighters, ships, subsystems, whatever, fires off the missiles, and then jumps away ASAP. It might stick around to see the effect of its missiles if there's no danger in doing so.

What's the difference between this and already standard Trebuchet strikes/hit and runs? There are several:

1) This fighter/strike craft is cheap. Very cheap. Or at least, not expensive and highly cost effective because they rarely die. You wouldn't need that many of them, but even if you did, you could still use them cost effectively by having them raid targets of opportunity all over the place, especially in supply lines, etc.

2) Very easy to train pilots to use it--no ACM required, among other things. Its combat role is essentially jump in, launch missiles, jump out ASAP before you're even in any danger. This means that pilots and fighters that are otherwise capable of filling other roles can do so instead of filling this singular role, which is a comparatively inefficient use of people and fighters.

3) Much greater strategic and tactical flexibility. These fighters can jump at least twice as frequently as other fighters, or possibly even more than that by means of charging up both jump drives ahead of time, so that you can jump out extremely quickly after jumping in.

4) With coordination with AWACS (or similar, like an Aurora), these guys could jump in right ahead of a fighter or bomber wing, fire those massive cluster-anti-fighter/bomber missiles, and jump out. Or jump right "next" to a cruiser or corvette, launch a large salvo of missiles/bombs, and jump out--at least some would get through, and no fighters would be lost (and the mere threat of such a capability has a tremendous impact and advantage in itself).

As for the specifics:
1) Size-wise, it could range from light-medium bomber to Herc II-sized fighters. The former allows it to carry much more in the way of missiles/torpedoes/bombs, however. In order to increase missile/bomb capacity, gun ports are very few in number (2 at most, and potentially even 0).

2) Without the need to power guns, more energy output can be redirected into recharging jump drives, shields, and/or afterburners.

3) Maneuverability can be poor; it shouldn't need it anyway unless things go very wrong (at which point you'd need a lot more than maneuverability to make the difference, so it's a moot point).

4) Both drives can be charged simultaneously, and their charges can be expended independently. Meaning, you can charge both ahead of time, use the first, and then use the second separately.

5) A new long-range missile would need to be developed, but it would be cheaper than the Trebuchet. Essentially, it'd have a longer range, but poorer maneuverability and tracking of maneuverable targets. The idea is that this is used to launch surprise, rapid raids against targets all over the theater of war, but these missiles would mainly target slow, relatively lightly defended targets, like cargo transports, some space stations, damaged capships, etc. In order to make ECM far less effective, the missile would be hardwired to not maneuver much--slow targets like freighters wouldn't be able to dodge anyway, and once a lock is attained, only slight adjustments in vector would be needed, so you design the guidance system/software to take advantage of that. They'd be fired in sufficient numbers as to make anything less than good fighter cover or good point defenses inadequate to prevent serious damage.


As for the cost of subspace drives?


The limiting factor. Potentially, one or both of the drives would be smaller/shorter ranged to reduce cost. However, given how even mass-produced, standard/sub-standard fighters always have good intrasystem drives, they can't be that expensive, especially if using shorter-ranged variants.

Additionally, given how these fighters are designed to almost never get shot down, they'd be highly cost effective regardless.



So what are your thoughts? It seems right up the GTVA's alley, especially given the TEI, and the effectiveness of long-range "hit-and-run" missile strikes against convoys, fighters, and stations alike.

EDIT:
To clear up confusion, I'm pasting a post I made further down, that explains why it's unique and more effective (and cost efficient) than Treb strikes with Ares fighters:


Spoiler:
Instead, this fighter jumps in, ideally within range of their long range missiles (like the Trebuchet, though I suppose Cyclops could also be equipped and used if it jumps right within range, or close to it, to begin with), targets fighters, ships, subsystems, whatever, fires off the missiles, and then jumps away ASAP. It might stick around to see the effect of its missiles if there's no danger in doing so.

Don't we get exactly this in the Ares treb strike?  Seems to me the Ares fills every single bullet point in your list.  The only maybe is the "cheap" part, but then Treb strikes seem so low risk I don't really think it matters.

What the GTVA really needs is an anti-subsystem missile that can't be shot down and isn't lag-pursuit like that PoS Stiletto-II.  The Treb was that in FS2, but now it doesn't have puncture damage, making it pretty much useless against uparmoured subsystems like the Medea's beam cannons (or whatever guns the Feds or Shivans decide to uparmour).

No, not really. An Ares is a very durable fighter, without a doubt, but it's still a comparatively expensive fighter. The "Ballista" is far cheaper, and does away with all of the unnecessary things, carrying only what it needs. The two jump drives, decent-large sized missile capacity, adequate engines (as in, max cruise speed of 40), and minimal armor/shields. That's it. So, very cheap, and very efficient.

It's also unique in that it can jump in and out of the fight very quickly, unlike the Ares. Seriously; imagine the first mission to WiH. Only this time, instead of sending a bunch of fighters and a single Ares treb strike, you have 20 Ballistas jump within 4000 KM of the convoy/UEF escort, fire off 40 Trebs, and jump out. Then you send in a wing of bombers to kill every ship in the convoy with impunity. This is possible, because Ballistas are cheap as hell, their pilots require no ACM training/experience, and they rarely get shot down.

But let's up the ante: Delena Est (sorry if I misspelled the name). The part just before the "last stand" of the Carthage's fighter wings against the War Gods' charge. You need to take out those UEF gunships for the Carthage's battlegroup to be capable of taking on the incoming frigates, as well as the about-to-arrive backup frigates. Well, you have 20-40 Ballistas jump in from somewhere--even from the Carthage itself--in range of Trebuchets. You then have those Ballistas launch a Macross Missile Massacre (each Ballista firing at least four Trebuchets at once, possibly following that up with further missile launches in rapid succession). Those Ballistas then jump out, or back to the Carthage to get quickly rearmed. In the meantime, the UEF fighter/gunship force is a mere shadow of what it once was, as there are simply far too many missiles to effectively dodge them all, especially with so little warning. For bonus points, you could time it so that your remaining fighter wings are now in range to engage the UEF fighters around the time when the missiles are launched or hit their targets.

Now, you've either got limited fighter superiority, or the UEF's fighter/gunship presence is effectively gone. This is enough to turn the tides, allowing you to win the battle. Assuming, of course, that it isn't all a trap for when a Raynor and Chimera shows up, but you get the point.

Why can't the Ares do that? Because you can't build Ares like that, period. It's expensive and nowhere near as cost-efficient. Ares are heavy fighters, featuring very heavy armor and shielding, high military-grade engines, gun ports (and the guns themselves), etc. They also have only one jump drive.

The Ballista can be produced and deployed on a strategic and tactical level in massive numbers, with relatively minimal losses. Their pilots require no ACM training or experience, and their very presence/system/setup is a morale boost--the rooks/non-ACM-trained pilots flying them have a very high survival rate, yet still contribute significantly to the war effort. They can be used, on both a tactical and strategic level, in ways that other assets can't, in an extremely cost-effective manner. When you combine high-cost effectiveness with high survivability--and even high numbers/prevalence, to boot--you get massive morale boosts. In a war where losses are common, something like that helps tremendously. It directly challenges the notion of attrition or inevitable casualties--these guys come home almost every time.

There's another thing they can do that Ares can't--using more short ranged missiles, instead of relying on the superior range of the Trebs to avoid harm (which is not entirely effective; in cases where the treb launches aren't enough to prevent enemies from attacking or pursuing the Ares, the Ares often get destroyed, unless they have other fighter cover--which again, is something that the Ballista never needs. So instead of Trebs, you could equip Stilettos, jump to within 2500M of a corvette, and launch them en masse, targeting the engines, comms, and beam turrets. Then jump out after launching. For best effect, you have some kind of observer hanging back (like an Aurora in the general area) to see the effect on target, and coordinate further strikes to finish off the vessel, likely using cruisers/bombers. You could even make that 2000 or 1500M--because you can jump right out again in scant seconds, it's not a problem.

I hope, now, that you're starting to see where the actual advantages and possibilities of such a craft lies. It's flexible, super-cost effective, morale-boosting, and highly effective even just by existing as the threat that it presents. Like a deterrent, it forces the UEF (or GTVA, depending on who uses it, though this is far more GTVA specialty and style) to consider the potential threat of Ballista strikes in almost every action it takes, including defending of supply lines or stationary assets. You can't fight it with attrition, or by increasing fighter cover across the board. Maybe you invent truly new weapon systems/tactics to fight it, but again, unless what you come up with is as cost-effective as the Ballista, then it's a GTVA advantage/victory, as the Ballista becomes less cost effective (or less flexible in terms of how you can use it, more likely/specifically), but tilts the attrition/balance in the GTVA's favor.

Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: pecenipicek on May 07, 2012, 12:27:37 pm
i believe that the subspace missile strike is a much better alternative. why faff around with jump -> fart missile load -> jump and expose valuable pilots to needless danger, when you have TAG-C's, which when they hit something, summon that horrid subspace missile rape?


(note, i think its tag-c's. i'm not sure how WiH had it handled exactly)


also, for the role you are proposing, well, Ares is a good candidate, but, as the tech description says, potato potato potato.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: The E on May 07, 2012, 12:33:43 pm
Two little problems: Fighters do not generally need sprint drives, as their jump drives can cycle very fast indeed (Cycle time being a function of total ship mass).

Second, Trebuchet strikes are really effective because Trebuchets can not be shot down, only evaded. Cyclops torps very definitely can be shot down, which means that the best option for bringing bombs on target is to launch them at very short range at very high speed (this, obviously, is not a very survivable strategy against UEF defenses. See also: SSM strikes).
To make it clear, UEF point defenses are really scary, and since UEF pilots have no problem with staying near their capships, using a saturation strike is only feasible when you can eat losses along the way; SSMs, which do essentially what you describe, are even easier to manufacture, and do not at any point in their life cycle endanger the people tasked with bringing them to their destination.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 07, 2012, 12:38:05 pm
Remember that the only canonical material is that which comes out in the campaigns or clearly marked updates!

Devs should be careful when they post in threads like this because it can dampen interesting speculation - we don't want every new forum post to be equivalent to submitting a proposal to a design bureau.

I do think one big challenge would be fitting and powering those jump drives on a small spaceframe.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 07, 2012, 12:43:40 pm
i believe that the subspace missile strike is a much better alternative. why faff around with jump -> fart missile load -> jump and expose valuable pilots to needless danger, when you have TAG-C's, which when they hit something, summon that horrid subspace missile rape?



Because you'd make each and every missile vastly more expensive because each one would have its own subspace drive, and each drive would receive exactly one use. That's the OPPOSITE of cost-effective, which is what the whole point of this idea is.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 07, 2012, 12:54:35 pm

I do think one big challenge would be fitting and powering those jump drives on a small spaceframe.

Why? Even ships like the Pegasus have long-range jump drives, despite being very tiny and slim. The UEF's cheap/common fighter is also equipped similarly, despite being somewhat small and slim.

Remember, it would take far less bulk and power to make it work than it would on a different kind of fighter. Minimal to none power draw for guns, no dog-fight-capable shields (though perhaps, if practicality allows for close-range highly-rapid bombing runs from subspace right off your port hull), no high-performance engines. It'd be easy.

As for fitting--also easy; engines can be smaller/fewer in number to cut down on bulk and power draw, as well as mass. These fighters don't need to go fast, or even close; they jump in, launch their payload, jump right out. These ships can be bulky regardless, as again, so long as you can do the sprint-jumping just fine while maintaining a good missile/bomb capacity, everything else can be quite substandard compared to all other fighters/bombers. Which, again, cuts down on costs, complexity, and maintenance tremendously.

Kind of like how Chimera corvettes are mainly forward beam cannons with engines, these "fighters" are like Trebuchet launchers with dual-subspace drives. Armor? Minimal. Shields? Possibly minimal as well. Guns? Little to none; won't need them. Engines? Don't need much; maneuvering and intercept is not this guy's role or need, and subspace jumps are how you get around/back to base.

The name of the game is cost-effectiveness. This is, in theory, very high up there--you rarely lose one, they don't cost much, don't require skilled pilots/ACM training, and can be used in a wide variety of situations, depending on how you use them. Even if you do lose some, they're not expensive.



Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 07, 2012, 12:56:22 pm
I do think one big challenge would be fitting and powering those jump drives on a small spaceframe.
Yeah, sprint jump drive are probably only feasible because you can get a meson reactor on recent warships to power them. The only non-TEI ship with a sprint jump drive is the Carthage, and it was just an experimental prototype. I doubt you can fit a meson reactor on a fighter, and I doubt a fighter has enough output to power two drives, especially when a single drive has more than a quick enough recharge rate to make the whole concept redundant to begin with.

Because you'd make each and every missile vastly more expensive because each one would have its own subspace drive, and each drive would receive exactly one use. That's the OPPOSITE of cost-effective, which is what the whole point of this idea is.
Standard, intra-system subspace technology has been mastered and mass-producible for probably around a century by the time of BP. We're not talking about putting an inter-system or sprint drive on a torpedo here.

Besides, keep in the mind the cost of a whole fighter PLUS the cost of a pilot PLUS the training cost of the pilot. You can probably pay a full SSM strike for that price.

@SaltyWaffles : LRN2EDIT. Double-posting is frowned upon.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Qent on May 07, 2012, 01:06:31 pm
I kind of think that SSMs are perceived as more effective than they should be. Aside from the cost, what if the launching destroyer comes under attack and can't fire them? Or if it has to support two battles at the same time? Or an AWACS jams the TAG or the destroyer? It seems like the last push when something really important needs more bombs.

ANYWAY, for the ideal missile, you definitely don't want it getting shot down. You also don't want to have to hang around for five minutes just to unload. So maybe you'd want a swarm missile, with only like two salvos? Jump in, fire, jump out, reload.

Yeah, sprint jump drive are probably only feasible because you can get a meson reactor on recent warships to power them. The only non-TEI ship with a sprint jump drive is the Carthage, and it was just an experimental prototype. I doubt you can fit a meson reactor on a fighter, and I doubt a fighter has enough output to power two drives, especially when a single drive has more than a quick enough recharge rate to make the whole concept redundant to begin with.
I think that "sprint drive" is not a specific technology, but the concept of a drive fast enough to jump twice within the same engagement, however you implement it. The GVD What'sitsname Hatshepsut can also do it, and its implementation looked different from Terran ships'. So I'm with The E, that it probably wouldn't make sense to put something on a fighter and call it a "sprint drive," because they can already do that.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 07, 2012, 01:15:42 pm
The issues you mention are valid. But the SSMs are not intended to be the ultimate solution to all things, especially on their own. They are, however, excellent when used in conjunction with other things. If the escorting fighters and the warship point defences are distracted by your own fighter corps, or a bomber wave, or a warship to disarm, they won't be able to intercept effectively a SSM strike.

SSM really works best in the confusion of the battle than on its own. They can also, from a completely reversed point of view, be used as a disposable distraction device themselves, distracting fighters and point defences away in order to let a warship or heavy bomber strike slip in and finish the target, or anything along those lines.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Aesaar on May 07, 2012, 01:46:04 pm
Instead, this fighter jumps in, ideally within range of their long range missiles (like the Trebuchet, though I suppose Cyclops could also be equipped and used if it jumps right within range, or close to it, to begin with), targets fighters, ships, subsystems, whatever, fires off the missiles, and then jumps away ASAP. It might stick around to see the effect of its missiles if there's no danger in doing so.

Don't we get exactly this in the Ares treb strike?  Seems to me the Ares fills every single bullet point in your list.  The only maybe is the "cheap" part, but then Treb strikes seem so low risk I don't really think it matters.

What the GTVA really needs is an anti-subsystem missile that can't be shot down and isn't lag-pursuit like that PoS Stiletto-II.  The Treb was that in FS2, but now it doesn't have puncture damage, making it pretty much useless against uparmoured subsystems like the Medea's beam cannons (or whatever guns the Feds or Shivans decide to uparmour).
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 07, 2012, 01:48:50 pm
Yeah, the Paveway is one of the major things the UEF does better than the GTVA, and one of the main reason they are still standing after months of warfare.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: The E on May 07, 2012, 02:00:57 pm
Don't we get exactly this in the Ares treb strike?  Seems to me the Ares fills every single bullet point in your list.  The only maybe is the "cheap" part, but then Treb strikes seem so low risk I don't really think it matters.

The Ares design is 18 years old by the time of WiH. While it probably never will be a cheap design like the Kulas, it probably isn't as ultra-rare as it was back during FS2.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 07, 2012, 02:10:42 pm
We already have the Rhea designed and used in a similar fashion to the Ares. It can even carry bombs, to boot, and it doesn't suffer from the "potato" syndrome.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Legate Damar on May 07, 2012, 07:10:32 pm
What is the maximum amount of chained jumps a fighter can make?

What about a destroyer?
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 07, 2012, 07:53:25 pm
Instead, this fighter jumps in, ideally within range of their long range missiles (like the Trebuchet, though I suppose Cyclops could also be equipped and used if it jumps right within range, or close to it, to begin with), targets fighters, ships, subsystems, whatever, fires off the missiles, and then jumps away ASAP. It might stick around to see the effect of its missiles if there's no danger in doing so.

Don't we get exactly this in the Ares treb strike?  Seems to me the Ares fills every single bullet point in your list.  The only maybe is the "cheap" part, but then Treb strikes seem so low risk I don't really think it matters.

What the GTVA really needs is an anti-subsystem missile that can't be shot down and isn't lag-pursuit like that PoS Stiletto-II.  The Treb was that in FS2, but now it doesn't have puncture damage, making it pretty much useless against uparmoured subsystems like the Medea's beam cannons (or whatever guns the Feds or Shivans decide to uparmour).

No, not really. An Ares is a very durable fighter, without a doubt, but it's still a comparatively expensive fighter. The "Ballista" is far cheaper, and does away with all of the unnecessary things, carrying only what it needs. The two jump drives, decent-large sized missile capacity, adequate engines (as in, max cruise speed of 40), and minimal armor/shields. That's it. So, very cheap, and very efficient.

It's also unique in that it can jump in and out of the fight very quickly, unlike the Ares. Seriously; imagine the first mission to WiH. Only this time, instead of sending a bunch of fighters and a single Ares treb strike, you have 20 Ballistas jump within 4000 KM of the convoy/UEF escort, fire off 40 Trebs, and jump out. Then you send in a wing of bombers to kill every ship in the convoy with impunity. This is possible, because Ballistas are cheap as hell, their pilots require no ACM training/experience, and they rarely get shot down.

But let's up the ante: Delena Est (sorry if I misspelled the name). The part just before the "last stand" of the Carthage's fighter wings against the War Gods' charge. You need to take out those UEF gunships for the Carthage's battlegroup to be capable of taking on the incoming frigates, as well as the about-to-arrive backup frigates. Well, you have 20-40 Ballistas jump in from somewhere--even from the Carthage itself--in range of Trebuchets. You then have those Ballistas launch a Macross Missile Massacre (each Ballista firing at least four Trebuchets at once, possibly following that up with further missile launches in rapid succession). Those Ballistas then jump out, or back to the Carthage to get quickly rearmed. In the meantime, the UEF fighter/gunship force is a mere shadow of what it once was, as there are simply far too many missiles to effectively dodge them all, especially with so little warning. For bonus points, you could time it so that your remaining fighter wings are now in range to engage the UEF fighters around the time when the missiles are launched or hit their targets.

Now, you've either got limited fighter superiority, or the UEF's fighter/gunship presence is effectively gone. This is enough to turn the tides, allowing you to win the battle. Assuming, of course, that it isn't all a trap for when a Raynor and Chimera shows up, but you get the point.

Why can't the Ares do that? Because you can't build Ares like that, period. It's expensive and nowhere near as cost-efficient. Ares are heavy fighters, featuring very heavy armor and shielding, high military-grade engines, gun ports (and the guns themselves), etc. They also have only one jump drive.

The Ballista can be produced and deployed on a strategic and tactical level in massive numbers, with relatively minimal losses. Their pilots require no ACM training or experience, and their very presence/system/setup is a morale boost--the rooks/non-ACM-trained pilots flying them have a very high survival rate, yet still contribute significantly to the war effort. They can be used, on both a tactical and strategic level, in ways that other assets can't, in an extremely cost-effective manner. When you combine high-cost effectiveness with high survivability--and even high numbers/prevalence, to boot--you get massive morale boosts. In a war where losses are common, something like that helps tremendously. It directly challenges the notion of attrition or inevitable casualties--these guys come home almost every time.

There's another thing they can do that Ares can't--using more short ranged missiles, instead of relying on the superior range of the Trebs to avoid harm (which is not entirely effective; in cases where the treb launches aren't enough to prevent enemies from attacking or pursuing the Ares, the Ares often get destroyed, unless they have other fighter cover--which again, is something that the Ballista never needs. So instead of Trebs, you could equip Stilettos, jump to within 2500M of a corvette, and launch them en masse, targeting the engines, comms, and beam turrets. Then jump out after launching. For best effect, you have some kind of observer hanging back (like an Aurora in the general area) to see the effect on target, and coordinate further strikes to finish off the vessel, likely using cruisers/bombers. You could even make that 2000 or 1500M--because you can jump right out again in scant seconds, it's not a problem.

I hope, now, that you're starting to see where the actual advantages and possibilities of such a craft lies. It's flexible, super-cost effective, morale-boosting, and highly effective even just by existing as the threat that it presents. Like a deterrent, it forces the UEF (or GTVA, depending on who uses it, though this is far more GTVA specialty and style) to consider the potential threat of Ballista strikes in almost every action it takes, including defending of supply lines or stationary assets. You can't fight it with attrition, or by increasing fighter cover across the board. Maybe you invent truly new weapon systems/tactics to fight it, but again, unless what you come up with is as cost-effective as the Ballista, then it's a GTVA advantage/victory, as the Ballista becomes less cost effective (or less flexible in terms of how you can use it, more likely/specifically), but tilts the attrition/balance in the GTVA's favor.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 07, 2012, 08:01:17 pm
You have put a lot of thought into your doctrine, but how well would it hold up with the upcoming introduction - on both the UEF and GTVA sides - of capship-fired countermeasures?

Ironically, on the UEF side these systems were specifically designed to create safe zones against massed Trebuchet fire.

Additionally, are you sure you're not skipping over some hidden costs of the Ballista doctrine? Making these extremely precise jumps in and out of the combat zone will require AWACS on station for considerable periods at each target area, and those AWACS - even if positioned fifty kilometers away - will need force protection. If you're going to say 'Auroras', that is a good answer!
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Klaustrophobia on May 07, 2012, 08:12:04 pm
many of your ideas are contradicting themselves.   your notion is to have a cheap missile boat that does nothing else, but then suggest it's better than an Ares in case it DOES get attacked, it can somehow defend itself better than a heavily armed assault fighter with its paper armor and 40 m/s max engine?  and if the idea is to just spam long range missiles, why is it that it has more short-range firepower than an ares, which is second only to the Ery in that regard?  as for survivability, that comes from the tactic, not the hardware.  ANY fighter used as a short shock jumper can be expected to return home unharmed.  and BP has already demonstrated you don't need special or extra jump drives to do it.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Scotty on May 07, 2012, 08:26:26 pm
You know, it occurs to me that this is exactly what the TEI program isn't, and that's short legged with regards to staying power.  This ship will presumably remain in the engagement for about a minute, maybe, and will launch a few volleys of Trebs and then leave.

Congratulations, you've splashed a couple dozen Shivan fighters with your massed fire, and then leave.  Now what's your warship going to do without fighter cover because you built these instead?

At its core, the TEI program exists to supply ships to the front line that, in the event of a Shivan incursion, will not have to leave the front line, giving every available second to escaping refugees while another node is sealed off.  When you have a fighter craft that is actually designed to stay away from the front line for 99% of its operational life, there's a little bit of a conflict of doctrine.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 07, 2012, 09:23:44 pm
That's a good point, but at the same time, there's plenty that needs Trebbin' in the event of a Shivan attack, whether it be a Ravana's forward beams or a big group of Shivan bombers making trouble. Sustainability is certainly important, but as long as you can keep these guys fueled, jumping, and flying, presumably there will be areas where their attention is useful.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: niffiwan on May 07, 2012, 09:56:21 pm
Could the Kulas fill this role?  I don't believe the sprint drives are needed for fighters to carry out rapid jumps.  They can carry Trebs.  They are a cheap fighter.  They already exist & therefore do not require the R&D effort that a new design would.  A downside is the small missile capacity, but if you're only going to be "on target" for the time it takes to fire a couple of trebs that doesn't really matter. Another downside is that they can't carry Stilettos to perform the secondary role you mentioned.  On the upside, they've got a chance of defending themselves if they get caught outside their intended mission role - and they can also be deployed in a space superiority role as required. 

One of the biggest issues I see with the Ballista fighter with specific regard to the UEF/GTVA war is supply - which fighters would the GTVA remove from Sol in order to be able to supply the Ballista squadrons? 

The Ballista seems to be a very specific design that fills a single role, outside that role it would be pure cannon fodder. e.g. if you lost your AWACS support & the ability to execute precision jumps- with slow speed and little armour a single Kent (200m/s afterburn!) with Slammers could easily wipe out a squadron, or at least force them to withdraw for fear of being wiped out. 
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Aesaar on May 07, 2012, 10:08:34 pm
It's also unique in that it can jump in and out of the fight very quickly, unlike the Ares. Seriously; imagine the first mission to WiH. Only this time, instead of sending a bunch of fighters and a single Ares treb strike, you have 20 Ballistas jump within 4000 KM of the convoy/UEF escort, fire off 40 Trebs, and jump out. Then you send in a wing of bombers to kill every ship in the convoy with impunity. This is possible, because Ballistas are cheap as hell, their pilots require no ACM training/experience, and they rarely get shot down.

Play Collateral Damage again.  Try to catch the Ares wing (Corvus) before it jumps away.  They stay just long enough to fire their Trebs, then they leave.  They're present for less than 30 seconds.  Two wings of Rheas (Corvus and Serpens) do the exact same thing in Darkest Hour.  And like The E said, the Ares was new by the time of FS2.  By WiH, it's aging, and it's probably about as expensive as the Artemis.  Maybe less.

Honestly, most of your comments against the Ares are pure conjecture, not supported by game material.  The role you've pegged for your "Ballista" is one that, going by the tech description and uses in missions, is perfectly filled by the Ares and the Rhea.  It isn't necessary at all, and goes against the direction we've seen non-Kulas TEI fighters go (which is similar to what the Feds do).  Versatility is important, because Shivans are very unpredictable.  The Ares is by no means a dogfighter, but loaded with Maxims and Balors, it can seriously hurt cruisers and can kill bombers even when its bays are empty.  The Rhea can do the same, and can also carry bombs.  Your Ballista can do nothing except deliver Trebs.  If it's empty, it's useless.

One trick ponies are not what the TEI is about.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 07, 2012, 10:19:47 pm
Let's keep the discussion civil even in dissection - I want SaltyWaffles to keep posting ideas on this or other topics.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 07, 2012, 11:54:31 pm
The Ballista seems to be a very specific design that fills a single role, outside that role it would be pure cannon fodder. e.g. if you lost your AWACS support & the ability to execute precision jumps- with slow speed and little armour a single Kent (200m/s afterburn!) with Slammers could easily wipe out a squadron, or at least force them to withdraw for fear of being wiped out.

You're pairing it against a ship it would not have been designed to fight. This is patently unfair. No known Shivan craft has performance comparable to a Kentauroi and the Shivans don't have missiles comparable to Slammers that we know of either.

It also ignores that the Trebuchet is frequently used to disarm larger ships, it was still originally designed to function against enemy bombers by allowing extremely long range interceptions. A ship like the Ballista would have at least two roles, one of them in itself the combination of two others. The first is as suppression of enemy weapons for strike packages. The second is as destroyer group defense; this would combine the original Trebuchet role of anti-bomber work with the adopted one of being able to disarm enemy ships.

In general I agree that this is not a likely design, but belittling it in this way is disingenuous.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Thaeris on May 08, 2012, 12:34:55 am
I will make the following analysis:

...In WWII, aviation engineers were finding that designing an aeroplane capable of doing everything seldom did everything well. There were a few aircraft that emerged as truly capable multi-role fighters, but they were built as fighters from the onset. Their capabilities became manifest either through specific variants or simply prolonged development of the airframe.

As technology progressed, the skill set of any given aircraft has mounted - today you of course see tactical aircraft capable of strategic missions, something engineers from the 40's might not be shocked by (given that they were thinking ahead, like any good engineer does), but nevertheless would still be astounded by.

What engineers and commanders have also observed is that niche aircraft, unless that niche is sustainable or essential to operations, tend to become obsolete much faster than conventional designs. Niche designs are also designed to operate within a specific battlefield dynamic - heck, any design is designed around the presumed constraints of the theater of operation and the operational characteristics of the user... However, when the battlefield dynamic changes, the niche design often suffers the most. The point is that general designs tend to be better, more reliable, and longer-lasting combat craft than the proverbial one-trick-pony.

If we apply this logic to FS, the Ballista in many ways reminds me of what the good old Athena was supposed to be. It took a heavy tactical load to the front rather than a strategic load. It was fast, but fighters were better suited to filling the superiority mission. But, it was either designated as a heavy fighter or tactical bomber rather than just a general bomber... note that's not itself quite a niche design despite how it sounds. What you want is a new tactical bomber. The best part is that you probably don't even need one.

I've yet to play WiH. I work on my own projects, my own mod teams, and then there's school. BUT, there is the GTB Rhea, which for all intents and purposes seems to be the replacement for the Athena that the Zeus just wasn't. I have no idea why the bomber's missile banks (as of the wiki) are smaller than the Ares'... this is rather nonsensical tabling in my view. However, I can say that removing the gun hardpoint of the Rhea and replacing it with another missile pod will give you a very large weapons payload, no gun energy to worry about, and it's fast. It's also logistically viable, and a commander can switch the load-out of the strike bomber wing to mount defensive guns or drop into the engagement area with two large pods full of missiles, launch them, and then get out. The sophisticated fire control system of a bomber will also make targeting ideally better than the run-of-the mill fighter (the statement is primarily fluff, of course). Given the logistical strain that I precieve to be on the GTVA's hands, I also really don't want to have to commission R&D for another combat craft, and then buy it...

So, the solution is general, and the general solution is probably best. And if BP actually wanted to use this concept, you could probably have a working model by tomorrow.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on May 08, 2012, 01:39:57 am
Random thoughts about the treb, they may or may not make sense (the thoughts, not the trebs).

In BP2, while it is used on a regular basis, we don't quite see the kind of treb spam the Ballista would be designed to do. Now, considering the number of treb-capable strikecraft around, if the Alliance had a good supply of them, we should see treb strike much more often, at least until the Federation finds an effective counter, given how overpowered the treb is. I also know that for gameplay reason, it should be avoided to pit the player against trebs too often, but I'm wondering what the in-universe explaination would be. I'd bet that the playload-to-cost ratio is inferior to a cyclops', or something like that.
/random_thoughts_of_the_morning
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: niffiwan on May 08, 2012, 04:21:58 am
You're pairing it against a ship it would not have been designed to fight. This is patently unfair. No known Shivan craft has performance comparable to a Kentauroi and the Shivans don't have missiles comparable to Slammers that we know of either.

It also ignores that the Trebuchet is frequently used to disarm larger ships, it was still originally designed to function against enemy bombers by allowing extremely long range interceptions. A ship like the Ballista would have at least two roles, one of them in itself the combination of two others. The first is as suppression of enemy weapons for strike packages. The second is as destroyer group defense; this would combine the original Trebuchet role of anti-bomber work with the adopted one of being able to disarm enemy ships.

In general I agree that this is not a likely design, but belittling it in this way is disingenuous.

I thought the original suggestion for the Ballista was to fight the UEF, with examples from The Cost of War & Delenda Est?  If that's the case then a comparison vrs the Kent is fair enough, Ballista's would still be deployed to engage targets defended by Kents (or vrs the Kents themselves).  I'll admit the comparison is probably the toughest one a Ballista would face which isn't entirely fair, but that's war, fairness doesn't come into it.

As for the roles, you're right, I forgot about the Treb's anti-bomber role - mea culpa.  It was not my intention to be disingenuous  :)
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 08, 2012, 04:34:35 am
BUT, there is the GTB Rhea, which for all intents and purposes seems to be the replacement for the Athena that the Zeus just wasn't. I have no idea why the bomber's missile banks (as of the wiki) are smaller than the Ares'...
In order to not repeat the mistake of making a hugely expensive craft like the Ares, obviously. Remember the average survivability of bombers in the field ? You don't need to carry dozens of torpedoes, you'll be unable to fire them all before going down anyway. And if you're just going pop-up treb strike, you still have more than enough room for half the price or so.

EDIT: In any case, one of the reason I think Ares and Rhea are good enough for the job is that the GTVA doesn't have that many trebs to deploy anyway. Trebuchet are OP weapons, and you can only mass-produce OP weapons to a point. I think it's comparatively easier to deploy Trebs on the field than to produce them back afterwards, especially given the low loss rate of pop-up strike squadrons.

Which means that since delivery isn't the reason why we don't see more pop-up strikes, the Ballista is utterly redundant.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 08, 2012, 07:29:46 am
The Rhea's secondary bank capacity is best judged by its combat performance, and anyone who's been through Delenda Est can doubtless attest it's a pain.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 08, 2012, 08:54:44 am
many of your ideas are contradicting themselves.   your notion is to have a cheap missile boat that does nothing else, but then suggest it's better than an Ares in case it DOES get attacked, it can somehow defend itself better than a heavily armed assault fighter with its paper armor and 40 m/s max engine?  and if the idea is to just spam long range missiles, why is it that it has more short-range firepower than an ares, which is second only to the Ery in that regard?  as for survivability, that comes from the tactic, not the hardware.  ANY fighter used as a short shock jumper can be expected to return home unharmed.  and BP has already demonstrated you don't need special or extra jump drives to do it.

It CAN "defend" itself better than the Ares in the course of the Ballista's intended use. By, you know, jumping in without warning, firing missiles quickly, and jumping out before getting shot at. Which, you know, the Ares can't do. I would know. I've killed dozens of them because they could not do this. Including when they try Treb strikes.

And no, no, no. Any fighter can be used as a short shock jumper? And be expected to return home unharmed? What?

Did you miss all of the times in the game where fighters jump in, get killed by the dozens, and can't jump out? And how many of them can jump right back out after jumping in? The answer, in a vast majority of cases, is none.

It has more short range firepower than an Ares because it can carry a higher missile payload, be deployed in much larger numbers, fire more missiles at once, and not worry about getting attacked because you're jumping out in a few seconds anyway. Which, again, an Ares is not capable of doing and dies often as a result.

So a Ballista wing--or, say, 10 of them--can jump in about 1500M away from a corvette, lock and fire 40 Gremlin missiles in a few seconds, and jump back out. Result is a partially crippled, or at least seriously weakened, capital ship, at no extra cost, and no losses.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 08, 2012, 08:58:48 am


Which means that since delivery isn't the reason why we don't see more pop-up strikes, the Ballista is utterly redundant.

You're assuming that Trebs are somehow really expensive, even though we have had vastly more advanced missiles in real life for decades.

But yes, delivery is a reason why we don't see more pop-up strikes, because in game, most of the time those treb launchers end up dead. And only launch a few Trebs.

The Ballista can do way more than just a treb strike, too. With its ability to jump in and out without delay, it can jump in to closer range, lock and fire other kinds of missiles, and jump out without losses. Those missiles could be Slammers, EMP's, TAGs, Harpoons, Tornadoes, etc.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 08, 2012, 09:09:09 am
I still want to hear the response to this!

Quote
You have put a lot of thought into your doctrine, but how well would it hold up with the upcoming introduction - on both the UEF and GTVA sides - of capship-fired countermeasures?
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Jellyfish on May 08, 2012, 09:50:24 am
With its ability to jump in and out without delay, it can jump in to closer range, lock and fire other kinds of missiles, and jump out without losses. Those missiles could be Slammers, EMP's, TAGs, Harpoons, Tornadoes, etc.

Treb launching Nemesis'ing fighters?  :shaking:

As for the countermeasure system, is it just a very good ECM suite that prevents, or confuses, lock? Because that can be circumvented with dumbfire rockets. Take out all guidance systems from the Treb, and put in a more powerful propulsion system, larger warhead, or merely make it smaller, allowing fighters and bombers to carry more of them. This comes at a cost of making them less useful as fighter sweepers, though... which beats the point.
Is it a good CIWS that shoots down even non-targetable missiles? Because that too can be overwhelmed, by massing Trebs. Swarm launch them.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 08, 2012, 09:52:06 am
They work like fighter countermeasures - they won't affect dumbfires, only heatseekers and aspect seekers.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Dragon on May 08, 2012, 10:20:10 am
Also, they actually work best on heatseekers, aspect seekers just go dumbfire when jammed, making the capship CMs not very useful against trebs if the ship is immobile.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 08, 2012, 10:27:51 am
Also, they actually work best on heatseekers, aspect seekers just go dumbfire when jammed, making the capship CMs not very useful against trebs if the ship is immobile.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 08, 2012, 12:31:32 pm
I still want to hear the response to this!

Quote
You have put a lot of thought into your doctrine, but how well would it hold up with the upcoming introduction - on both the UEF and GTVA sides - of capship-fired countermeasures?

That would entirely depend on what countermeasures we're talking about. I need specifics; how expensive are those countermeasures, what is their nature, how widely are they available on their fleet's ships, how effective are they, etc?

Regardless, I can't think of any countermeasures that would reduce the Ballista's cost effectiveness from "crazy OP" to "not all that cost effective". Remember, they can jump to anywhere in Sol in a few minutes, without warning, and jump back in seconds, provided the time was taken to charge up both drives beforehand.

So, say, those refineries, fuel storage/cargo, and stations in the second to last mission (where you "bait" the Carthage)? Here's how you do major damage, both on a strategic AND logistical level, without any losses:

1) A group of 20-30 Ballistas charge up both their drives. A third are just equipped with anti-fighter/turret missiles, a third have half of that and half bombs, and a third have just bombs.  An Aurora fighter, or maybe even a Pegasus for maximum tactical advantage, "maps" out the area ahead of time, and if needed, helps with the jump calculations.

2) The Ballistas jump in. Any fighters or turrets in the area have no fewer than three Trebuchets (or a dozen Harpoons, or three dozen Tornadoes) fired at them within ten seconds. Provided that there's no immediate threat, the two-thirds of the force equipped with bombs goes after their designated targets--fuel and supply "crates"/storage, refineries, tankers, etc; potentially even the stations themselves. Any surviving fighters are finished off with further salvos of anti-fighter missiles; on the very off chance that a few survive anyway, the time they spend trying to evade and just survive is enough for the rest of the Ballistas to complete their objectives.

3) After hitting their targets, they jump right back out. Enemy jump-5 response teams arrive minutes afterward, finding absolutely no enemies to attack, pursue, or track.

So, there you go. You can pull off operations like that frequently, inflicting major damage to enemy logistics/supplies, morale, and the enemy's strategic initiative. Any potential countermeasure or countertactic would have to adequately protect all such potential targets. That also means that, even if they work, the Ballistas have already pulled their weight because they're tying down a ton of enemy resources, personnel, craft, and even potentially ships.

But it's important to remember that any effective countermeasure to the Ballista would have to also be, by nature, an effective countermeasure against shock-jump tactics and/or massed missile salvos--even for individual fighters. Such countermeasures would be massive game changers to combat and strategy as a whole, not just to the Ballista.

There is, MAYBE, one already existing counter to Ballista strikes against capships and fighter wings--AWACS. Except that this is apparently false, as every mission in which you have an AWACS on your side--FS2 or BP--enemy missiles still lock on to you and track you just fine. Jumping in and out works just fine as well. So that doesn't really work, then. Even if it did, AWACS ships are rare and valuable strategic assets, and are thus not going to be seen outside of battlegroups or fighter wings on critical missions.

Missiles in FS2/BP don't really work as you'd expect them to, or realistically, both in terms of using and countering them. You can't shoot them down (well, all but a few kinds of missiles anyway), and they're easy to evade unless in large numbers or when evasion is more difficult. They also have absurdly short range--a modern medium-long range anti-fighter missile has a range of over ONE HUNDRED KILOMETERS, and travels at speeds around Mach 5. They're maneuverable and not at all cruise missiles, either. The decades-old Phoenix missile the F-14 Tomcat used had a range of 190KM and traveled at Mach 5, and a Tomcat could carry at least four of them at a time.

Ship AAA either can't shoot down a given type of missile because of a flag setting, or they can, in which case the usually slow missile/torpedo is shot down with ease unless fired in large numbers or up close.

Torpedos are absurdly slow; a WW2-era torpedo travels faster, and its booster/engine is a tiny propeller--and the torpedo has to travel through water, which tends to be rather thicker and more friction-y than empty space.

The end result is that missiles and torpedos do not behave anything like they should or like you'd expect, and the "balance" is screwed up. And the warheads are nowhere near heavy enough to make a rocket engine so ineffective/inefficient at propelling the damn things. When gravity completely and utterly outmatches rocket boosters of over three hundred years in the future in terms of giving torpedoes velocity, you have failed so hard I can't even begin to describe it.

Not that you need to upset the gameplay style/dynamics of Freespace to fix it. Just make all missiles "shoot-down-able", but have longer ranges across the board and/or faster velocities. To make things easier and more fun, have the HUD automatically passively highlight/target missiles in your area (or heading towards your area), to make evading and destroying them easier and more fun.

In terms of anti-ship torpedoes, here's what you'd do:
1) They have longer ranges (how much is up for debate/testing)
2) They have MUCH, MUCH faster velocities. This is to make them harder to intercept, practical beyond point blank range, and far more dramatic on both sides.
3) They would do MUCH more damage to capships, depending on the type of torpedo and type of target. So, say, some torpedoes are designed to be effective against destroyer armor, but do less health damage, while other are only effective against lighter armor but do much more health damage (so it would do negligible damage against a destroyer, because of its much heavier armor).
4) They would, depending on the type, take up a lot of space. Only bombers, or craft similar to them, would be able to carry them at all. Depending on the yield and rating against armor, they'd either be things you could only carry two of on medium/heavy bombers, or two of on a light bomber (that's just the gist; the idea is that mnongo torpedoes for use against superdestroyers would be one or two apiece on heavy bombers, while a light bomber could carry one or two less powerful torpedoes for use against cruisers, etc.)

Alternatively, they'd be dumbfired in order to render ECM and countermeasures useless, but would have very fast velocities; this makes lining up a shot something that requires skill unless you're close up, and it also requires efforts to prevent it from getting shot down by either fighters or AAA. Keep in mind, though, that was much faster velocities, it won't be the "snails of doom" that torpedoes currently are.

Anti-ship torpedoes would be completely distinct from anti-subsystem/turret missiles; they'd behave more like heavy anti-fighter missiles that have intelligent enough tracking to hit the target even if it moves a little).

 



******

As for how Ballistas are able to jump in accurately enough to be in good positions from the moment they exit subspace--the answer is twofold.

1) For cases in which you need to be precise in a narrow window of opportunity, you need an AWACS or sufficient sensor/whatever support via several Auroras or capships. Thus, this would only happen in cases where the target(s) is high value and/or critical, or when deploying an AWACS (or enough equivalent assets) is not risky or costly.

2) For cases in which you don't need as much precision, or you have a larger window of opportunity, you'd either have indirect support (like from command, more distant AWACS, or previous, uncoordinated scouting) or you'd have one or two Auroras (or Pegasi, scouts, etc.) in the area to provide assistance and report the effect on target (if the Ballistas can't stick around to find out). Given that an Aurora is common and not exactly expensive (BP lore is a little unclear on that), this makes strikes/operations like this easy and relatively cheap to perform.

With fighter or ship cover, Ballistas can also operate without jumping out right away (or after striking the targets), as in most cases they'd outrange--or outgun at range, with FAR more missiles. Even with just a 40MPH/KPH (which does the game use?) engine and no afterburner, it would still keep up with (and in some cases outrun) any ship (SHIP, not fighter/craft).

Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Qent on May 08, 2012, 12:43:31 pm
Don't try to mix realism and FreeSpace. You will soon go insane as so many of us already are.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 08, 2012, 12:43:39 pm
Quote
Missiles in FS2/BP don't really work as you'd expect them to, or realistically, both in terms of using and countering them. You can't shoot them down (well, all but a few kinds of missiles anyway), and they're easy to evade unless in large numbers or when evasion is more difficult. They also have absurdly short range--a modern medium-long range anti-fighter missile has a range of over ONE HUNDRED KILOMETERS, and travels at speeds around Mach 5. They're maneuverable and not at all cruise missiles, either. The decades-old Phoenix missile the F-14 Tomcat used had a range of 190KM and traveled at Mach 5, and a Tomcat could carry at least four of them at a time.

Careful - this way lies madness.  ;)

I think you've made a good case for your dedicated pop-up Treb strike platform, though I think you're slightly overselling its capabilities against maneuvering opponents; a good human pilot will simply never be hit by Treb fire, and the AI suffers only because it's just not very smart about fast aspect-seekers. Capships launching flares will degrade some of the salvo into missing entirely, and decoy other weapons so that they strike the hull instead of their targeted subsystem.

But creating interesting doctrine for Blue Planet isn't about figuring out an optimum tactic that can 'win' the setting; it's about creating an interesting doctrine with strengths and weaknesses that lead to exciting gameplay and interesting stories. Even Steele, beloved as he is, is written with some key flaws. So here's my challenge: can you go a step further and come up with disadvantages, difficulties, and countermeasures applicable to your doctrine? Troubles that might be encountered in implementing it, and tactics that might be adopted by the OPFOR in response to it?

A great many mods have put time and effort into coming up with awesome new ships and awesome new tactics, but Blue Planet always strives to create things that are interesting but in some way flawed.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Dragon on May 08, 2012, 01:47:41 pm
Also, they actually work best on heatseekers, aspect seekers just go dumbfire when jammed, making the capship CMs not very useful against trebs if the ship is immobile.

Incorrect.
Since when? Every time I've seen decoying a work, it acted just like that. Unless the "decoyed penalty" comes into play, that is, and the Treb explodes before hitting the target.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 08, 2012, 01:50:53 pm
We've performed codeside alterations to countermeasure behavior on aspect seekers.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 08, 2012, 01:51:43 pm
I thought the original suggestion for the Ballista was to fight the UEF, with examples from The Cost of War & Delenda Est?  If that's the case then a comparison vrs the Kent is fair enough, Ballista's would still be deployed to engage targets defended by Kents (or vrs the Kents themselves).  I'll admit the comparison is probably the toughest one a Ballista would face which isn't entirely fair, but that's war, fairness doesn't come into it.

Yes, but I'm also correcting the assumption that the TEI craft are intended to fight the UEF; for the most part they're not. Even if they were, the UEF is an interim enemy. The GTVA's military has had, since its founding, been and still is designed to fight the Shivans. In the end, every piece of GTVA equipment must contribute to the ultimate goal of preventing the destruction of the Terran and Vasudan races; you're on a budget and on the clock both, though you can only view one of those things.

They're not going to build a completely new craft that has no application against the Shivans, but they'd be willing to build one that has only minimal application against the UEF but great usefulness against Shivans.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Scotty on May 08, 2012, 04:19:46 pm
3) After hitting their targets, they jump right back out. Enemy jump-5 response teams arrive minutes afterward, finding absolutely no enemies to attack, pursue, or track.

So, out of that wall of text, I'm just going to point out this part because it's easy to notice and I'm on a clock.


Now, all of that in mind: What exactly does the Ballista do better than all of that?  More importantly, what does it do better enough to warrant the design of a brand new, untested platform in order to perform its duties?  Cheaper per unit is all fine and dandy, but R&D and start up costs are expensive.

EDIT:

Even with just a 40MPH/KPH (which does the game use?) engine and no afterburner, it would still keep up with (and in some cases outrun) any ship (SHIP, not fighter/craft).

The Custos, Cretheus, and Karuna can all be pushed to speeds higher than 40 m/s.  The Karuna even has afterburners.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 08, 2012, 04:49:43 pm
WARNING: MEGA POST AND HOURS OF THOUGHT AND WRITING BLOW

Quote
Missiles in FS2/BP don't really work as you'd expect them to, or realistically, both in terms of using and countering them. You can't shoot them down (well, all but a few kinds of missiles anyway), and they're easy to evade unless in large numbers or when evasion is more difficult. They also have absurdly short range--a modern medium-long range anti-fighter missile has a range of over ONE HUNDRED KILOMETERS, and travels at speeds around Mach 5. They're maneuverable and not at all cruise missiles, either. The decades-old Phoenix missile the F-14 Tomcat used had a range of 190KM and traveled at Mach 5, and a Tomcat could carry at least four of them at a time.

Careful - this way lies madness.  ;)

I'm not trying to apply total realism here; I'm just using it to make a point. Which is below.

Quote

I think you've made a good case for your dedicated pop-up Treb strike platform, though I think you're slightly overselling its capabilities against maneuvering opponents; a good human pilot will simply never be hit by Treb fire, and the AI suffers only because it's just not very smart about fast aspect-seekers.

Erm, the Ballista is far, far more than just a pop up Treb strike platform. Remember, you can jump in to within 2000m of a bunch of fighter wings, and fire massive salvos of missiles of any kind--Slammer, EMP, Harpoon, Tornado, Grimmler--you name it. Sure, human-players can dodge a couple Trebuchets, but how effectively can they evade 20 Tornadoes, two Harpoons, and a Slammer all at once? If it's hard for an experienced, good player, then all but the best pilots in the setting would be dead meat in the face of such an attack.

Against capships, again, you could jump to 2000 or 3000m, and launch a hailstorm of Grimmlers. Even if they could be shot down like Stilhettos, some would inevitably get through. Congrats, you've just taken out a frigate's engines and half of its AA capability (or its torpedo launchers, maybe?). You're free to send in a cruiser or corvette with some fighter cover to finish off the stranded frigate. Or, if they bring reinforcements to protect it while trying to repair the engines, so do you. Why not have a destroyer jump in to kill it and its backup (if the UEF brings one of its irreplaceable destroyers, then it's game-on; you can take out any AWACS ship they might have with another Ballista strike! Hooray! Or counter it with your own AWACS, if need be).

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Capships launching flares will degrade some of the salvo into missing entirely, and decoy other weapons so that they strike the hull instead of their targeted subsystem.

Flares? What? None of these missiles are heat-seeking! They're all radar, ladar, laser, or dumbfired! Chaff would never work, even on a larger scale (you can't make it look anything like the ship or a subsystem, and without high speed maneuvering, the entire dynamic/system/nature of chaff is rendered moot; you'd also need a gigantic amount of chaff for even a single usage, which is just plain impractical or unfeasible on capships)! You'd need ECM, and good ones. The only kind of ship that demonstrates that in any combat capacity is an AWACS ship, and those are rare and fragile.

And there's no way the UEF (or even the GTVA) could develop and implement such a system so quickly. I mean, we're talking years, unless it's your top priority, to deploy an effective version of it on more than a handful of ships. Rushing it would make the whole thing vastly more expensive, too.

To give you an idea, it'd be like implementing today's stealth technology onto naval ships. We've done it, yeah, but it's extremely expensive and took years to develop, and it's so cost-prohibitive that even the freaking US Navy--weilder of 11 supercarriers and 10 medium carriers, along with many advanced and large nuclear subs--is very unlikely to make more than a few, at least for a long time.

That's for passive ECM. Active ECM is more like those "R2-D2" missile intercept systems that USN carriers have, in terms of cost and scale; they're expensive, took a while to develop, and even today are too expensive to mount on non-capital ships. Israel's Iron Dome took years to develop, costs quite a lot per unit, and is still only a few in number despite it being a very high priority for Israel; they're building several more, but I hope you get the idea.

It's much easier to implement on fighters, because it's on a different scale and level: they're like flares, in that they allow you to use advanced maneuvering and high speed to dodge the missile; FS2 capships are snails. Unless you can quickly move out of the way, the countermeasures won't work; they work by essentially putting a fake "you" where you were a second (or half second) before, while you sharply maneuver out of its path.

Otherwise, you'd need to take them Up To Eleven (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOx_wHhitqk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOx_wHhitqk)); the scale you'd need for capships would make this unfeasible. Flares are much easier to launch, are far more cost/space efficient, and are ACTIVE countermeasures, as opposed to chaff, which is more passive--it's just metal. You can design a flare that, despite being the size of a mouse, burns like a super-hot fireball--even though it only lasts a few seconds at best, that's all it needs. Chaff is basically scrap metal. It isn't launched so much as released, and the high speed and maneuvering of the jet distances the chaff from the jet. Capships have no such option. You'd need a massive amount of chaff, launched at high speed, for it to work at all. Additionally, the chaff (and the pattern it makes when launched) would have to somehow look like missile's target. Which is a massive, slow warship. Have fun with trying to make that work.

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But creating interesting doctrine for Blue Planet isn't about figuring out an optimum tactic that can 'win' the setting; it's about creating an interesting doctrine with strengths and weaknesses that lead to exciting gameplay and interesting stories. Even Steele, beloved as he is, is written with some key flaws. So here's my challenge: can you go a step further and come up with disadvantages, difficulties, and countermeasures applicable to your doctrine? Troubles that might be encountered in implementing it, and tactics that might be adopted by the OPFOR in response to it?

I think they're one and the same, actually. You make an acceptably fair playing field (or as fair as you want the story/setup to be on a grand level), set up consistent rules, and try to come up with the best tech and strategy. The limiting factors are meta; what's a faction's economy and infrastructure like? Its culture? Experience? Etc.

In this case, let's say you implement the Ballista for the GTVA, and it works as intended. What's separating it from being immersion/story-breakingly OP and an exciting, fun, and realistic (in-universe) development?

There are three main factors in play here:
1) The UEF's capability. Sol is supposed to have an industrial and infrastructure capacity that rivals the entire GTVA (or at least its Terran side). Granted, that was BEFORE the GTVA invasion, but still. Where are the UEF's production capabilities? It doesn't seem to actually have any--Uriel fighters are apparently an endangered species. New warships are unheard of. War materiel is vastly more valuable than people. Why is this the case?

This big, secret project Bei is working on would explain it, true. Though how such a project would stay a secret really stretches suspension of disbelief, as most the UEF's industrial capacity is being directed to a single, massive project, even as a desperate war of self-defense against a vastly more powerful enemy gradually gains more and more ground. The fact that the project's very existence is almost treated like a rumor by Admiral Calder himself--when speaking to the other two top admirals of the UEF--makes no sense. You'd expect knowledge of the existence of some secret, big UEF project to at least be widely known, especially for morale purposes.

So, this is really the biggest problem: the UEF is just too weak, and far too incapable of replacing losses (aside from poorly trained pilots or cheap fighters), along with showing very little capability to develop new technologies/designs. It can adapt its tactics to a decent degree, but it has yet to adapt technologically, logistically, or militarily. These are legitimate and logical disadvantages of the UEF, which are made even more apparent against the incredible adaptability that the GTVA has always displayed (though its lack of a new fighter capable of reverse thrust and afterburners is puzzling). Thus, in designing some kind of counter, it's got to be mostly tactical in nature.

2) Lore and gameplay contradiction. The UEF's big advantage is supposed to be major fighter superiority (which is itself partially due to the UEF's military being strictly designed around the expectation that all conflict would only be in Sol). In game, this isn't the case, as only the best UEF fighters are superior to GTVA ones, and only the Uriel is a major threat to capships (unless you have space dominance, which means you're going to need enough fighters to match the GTVA in such a battle), and considering how the UEF can't replace its losses, and the extreme adaptability of the GTVA, this should no longer be the case at all. The UEF is running very low on good pilots, has few Uriels left, has lost about a third of its fleets, has taken increasingly serious infrastructure and industrial capacity damage, and has poor morale. After the events of Delenda Est, it seems like the only thing stopping the GTVA from literally just committing to a large fleet action and decisively winning the war is the time it will take to repair and resupply its forces in Sol.

Actually, wait. The Vasudans are likely giving military support now, and they already started giving major logistical support earlier, too. So yeah, I give it a few months at best before the GTVA launches a final assault and crushes the remainder of the UEF. If they decided not to care about taking a bit heavier losses, they could launch that assault in under a month.

3) The UEF's diminishing capability, along with extremely bad morale (that's only getting worse). There are also the internal divisions, to make things even worse. The UEF has two hopes (three, if you count conditional surrender):

A) The Fedayeen. They'd need to be very powerful to make the difference, though. Notably, they'd need to be the War Gods times five, tactically/strategically and militarily, to delay the now-inevitable all out GTVA assault. Stopping it is out of the question. If the GTVA manages to launch their assault even remotely on time, then the Fedayeen need a major, potent technological trump card to prevent the UEF's ultimate defeat that day.

B) AWACS...sort of. The GTVA would need to not develop any countertactics or counter-technologies, and the remaining UEF AWACS ships need to be protected at all costs. And the UEF would have to have at least a few of them to actually make much of a difference. And they'd have to survive and remain operational throughout the battle, which means that no fighters or ships can get shots off at them--a very difficult challenge, for a UEF fighter force that's got few experienced/good pilots left (most of its ranks are poorly trained rookies, flying craft that merely equal typical GTVA fighters)...unless all of that info was only with regards to the Third Fleet, and not the First or Second, which seems unlikely. As it is, frequent raids on various parts of UEF assets/territory during the few months before the final assault are going to make matters even worse, and every good UEF pilot or fighter killed is an irreplaceable loss. This kind of environment is exactly where the Ballista would excel: experienced/good pilots and craft are stretched thin and relatively few in number, the UEF is struggling to protect its various assets around Sol, and the UEF as a whole is fatigued and running on very poor morale. The Ballista can essentially strike anywhere in the entire UEF territory (conveniently limited to just Sol) within a few minutes' time, and quickly jump away. The end result: AWACS is not going to cut it, especially if the GTVA's own AWACS can counter it.

***
So, in the end, what is the UEF's limited counter? A new missile specifically designed to counter massive missile barrages, deployed tactically, like so:
1) It'd be similar in concept to a Slammer--a missile that becomes a cluster munition when the time is right. However, it's area of effect is much larger, and its payload isn't explosives.
2) The payload is something like ECM. Since a vast majority of Freespace missiles are not heat-seeking, flares are not going to help much at all, and chaff isn't going to work either (the missile couldn't carry enough to make it effective over an area), so you'd need something somewhat new. It's supposed to screw with the missiles' targeting/tracking/maneuvering (pick one or two; all three would be ridiculous and hard to explain lore-wise), not destroy the missiles. As such, this missile would need to "hit" the barrage of missiles, which means being in a position to intercept that barrage fast enough. If you're the target, all the better (have fun with that one :P). Lore-wise, it could be something like radiation, or even just an EMP.

EDIT: Just found it. http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTM_EMP_Adv. (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTM_EMP_Adv.) ||| Yup. There you go. The counter. In fact, this is exactly the kind of ECM you're looking for. Forget flares. Launch an EMP missile at the incoming torpedoes/missiles from a battery in the ship. Obviously, you'd risk affecting your own systems/ordinance/fighters if they're in the EMP radius, so ideally you'd have a smaller EMP missile; the smaller AoE is still sufficient against missile barrages that are tightly packed, but without as much collateral risk. They'd also be cheaper (hopefully), smaller, and thus capable of being more widely deployed, and usable by more craft.

If you're worried about EMP spam, then you can play around with it in a number of ways. Maybe this new class of EMP missile has a "weaker" effect, resulting in less annoyance for fighters, but still sufficient to temporarily disrupt missiles (the canon lore says that the "current" generation of EMP missile affects deeper levels of circuitry for longer effect). Maybe they're still expensive enough to limit usage/deployment (as in, only one of the fighters in a wing has one/two, or each of the fighters can only carry one, and they're only used against mass missile barrages/large Treb strikes). Maybe the core materials comprising the EMP missile are not ones that the big secret project needs, so this is the one new tech/weapon that sees significant usage in the UEF? Maybe standard fighter shielding against EMP has improved since the Capellan Era (possibly even as a mere side effect of improved, standard armor technologies), so fighters are less affected while missiles aren't?


***
As for the tactical adaptations/counters--well, as a preface, it's ironic as hell that what was originally a major advantage for the UEF (the war and their territory all being in one, very developed and populated system) is now a major weakness. The Ballista's strategic effectiveness is greatly diminished in an inter-system conflict; they're dependent on a carrier/ship capable of carrying them in order to use jump nodes, and jump nodes themselves are huge bottlenecks that can also be extensively monitored from a distance; if an enemy carrier/destroyer enters the system, you will know it right away. That also means that a Ballista's origin, home, and base of operations is directly known to you. The first counter is the most simple: attack and destroy their home ships. Ballistas are far more effective--and safe--on offense than they are on defense. If you attack their home on your own terms, you're directly removing the Ballista's advantages, and you can effectively deploy your own specific countertactics and countermeasures without spreading out your resources/defense far too thinly; you have them exactly where you need them and where they'd be effective, and nowhere else. Their only advantage would be their large missile banks, and likely large numbers, but with EMP missiles (which you'd need relatively few of), you're fine.

But that's not at all an option for the UEF, even if we weren't in this unique theater of war. A direct assault on GTVA destroyers--even just one--is a massive and risky operation that requires careful planning and good execution. And a lack of Xanatos Gambits from the other side. And you have to actually destroy it, not just heavily damage it. Worse yet, the GTVA has a number of destroyers in Sol already, in addition to several available bases of operations (such as the captured Artemis station).

So how does the UEF counter it?
1) Centralize and consolidate your forces and assets. This makes you more vulnerable to a large, direct assault by the GTVA's Sol fleet, but hopefully they won't be capable/willing to attempt it for at least a few months while they repair and resupply. Despite their victory in Delenda Est, it came at the cost of heavy damage to a lot of ships--the Carthage's entire battle group is severely damaged, with only the Carthage in good fighting shape. The UEF assaults that coincided with the operation must have also inflicted significant damage or casualties, too.

This will make it possible to adequately defend a vast majority of your forces and assets, and avoids attrition warfare, which is very bad for the UEF in nearly all cases, at this point. This will leave quite a bit of territory vulnerable, but it's a necessary sacrifice to buy time. In order to counter another Steele Gambit (TM), you'd have your forces structurally divided into several cohesive, powerful battle-groups. Those battle-groups would  only respond to major, credible attacks, while the rest would remain consolidated and "close" to each other, deterring against a major assault against your core fleet/infrastructure/assets. GTVA has more destroyers in Sol than the UEF does--counting the Meridian, it's something like five or six to the UEF's three. The UEF, having just lost four frigates and two cruisers in Delenda Est (in addition to any losses from the other engagements that day), can't afford to send anything more than a single cruiser and transport to any non-major engagement. Thus, small, coherent strike teams of fighters are also organized, designed to respond to minor raids. If a GTVA cruiser shows up and you lack Uriels or bombers, too bad; retreat.

If more than one GTVA destroyer battle-group attacks a significant asset/thing, then you will not counter it with a second Solaris battle-group. You will give it up. This is because it's a clear and classic Xanatos Gambit--they win whichever way you act--but choosing to engage would result in disaster, rather than ceding that asset/territory. Instead of losing a refinery or city, you'd lose a Solaris, or the most critical/core of your infrastructure/assets. Either one would mean that ultimate defeat could be expected as early as a week or two afterward.

This strategy is all about buying time. You're giving up bits and pieces rapidly in order to conserve your core and most vital of assets, as well as your ships, which are the only thing standing between the GTVA and total victory. Samuel Bei says he and his project just needs more time. Well, here's his time. It's as much as he can get, short of a ceasefire to sue for peace.

Ballistas are going to incur heavy losses either way, but this strategy will limit those losses to less important assets and territory. Otherwise, they'd allow the GTVA to bleed the UEF ship by ship, squadron by squadron, major asset by major asset. With a consolidated force, infrastructure, and assets, you won't be spread thin, and even the best Ballista strikes would not be able to chink the figurative armor.

2) Focus defense on military and essential assets, at the cost of leaving civilian and nonessential assets with token defenses. The hope is that the GTVA will be far more hesitant to destroy purely civilian assets, ships, and installations. If they do anyway, then it's a boost to UEF morale, moral high ground, propaganda, and hurts GTVA morale, support for the war and the GTVA. It also helps in negotiations--not just moral high ground, but also less willingness to refuse to budge on terms on the GTVA's part. There's definite guilt there.

Ballistas can't really capture that stuff. Their hit and run attacks with mass missile barrages kill and destroy and leave as short a presence of force as possible, by design. Thus, if the GTVA instead tries to capture those assets/ships/territory, they'll have to do it without Ballistas, and they'll have to post forces there permanently to keep it under their control (even without threat of UEF attack; they're UEF citizens), which means less GTVA forces capable of attacking you.

Ships on the level of corvette and above are to be preserved at all costs; each such loss significantly hurts their chances of being a match for the GTVA's Sol fleet should they decide to launch a direct assault. Thus, committing them to action must be done carefully and conservatively. If need be, cede the asset and save your ships. It might be getting to dangerous levels of fuel in sixth months, but at this point the entire UEF wouldn't last three if you start losing ships.

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A great many mods have put time and effort into coming up with awesome new ships and awesome new tactics, but Blue Planet always strives to create things that are interesting but in some way flawed.

Honestly, you've got an intertwining of story, setting, and gameplay here. You can have weaknesses reflected in other ways than gameplay. The M1-Abrams tank is a good example; it's got speed, firepower, heavy armor, ruggedness, range, etc. But it's more expensive for it, not just in terms of building one, but in maintenance costs--a jet engine requires a lot of maintenance after rugged operations in a desert. Using that incredible speed means using a lot of fuel, so you need a good supply chain. And, you know, fuel costs money.

Thus, the UEF could come out with a new Solaris--one even equipped with AAAf beam cannons. Or it come out with a new fighter--one like an Uriel, that is effective against fighters yet also a major threat to capital ships, and even equip them with EMP missiles as standard issue, and build a ton of them relatively quickly, with production picking up steam instead of waning. The cost? Tons of money, including diverting resources away from things like schools or the economy, as well as shifts in public opinion (positive and/or negative; the morale boost alone might be more than worth the financial cost). If you go far enough, you might even start to compromise the ideals that Ubuntu stands for (economically speaking). But you'd survive.

Thus, an "OP" in-game element becomes balanced in the overall blend of story, setting, and gameplay. You could also have the other side, UEF or GTVA, come up with new tactical and technological counters, to keep the in-game balance where you want it. Maybe a specific new fighter is quite OP, but is so expensive or difficult to produce that there are very few of them. Maybe this new torpedo [Helios] is a huge step up in terms of power, to the point where it's a significant threat to even the Atreus [SJ Sathanas], but is so difficult to produce and prohibitively expensive that they're only deployed in the most vital of strategic circumstances [Capella] by the most elite pilots [Alpha 1].

See what I mean? And regardless, you can always just alter the competitive in-game balance too.
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Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: The E on May 08, 2012, 05:14:22 pm
Interesting post. Some interesting thoughts. None that I would implement, because the underlying assumptions are based on incomplete information, but that's just our fault for not being done with WiH 2.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Thaeris on May 08, 2012, 05:26:19 pm
I think the notes I made in my prior post are starting to echo, and would have even if I'd not have said anything at all - it's just common sense. Why not just use a modular weapon system already lying around which can either be modified in the field or easily re-tooled back in the factories at home? Here's the missile boat Rhea - it might need a bit of re-working to the base mesh, as this was more of a concept model rather than something to be put back in FS. All one has to do is mirror the main weapons pod...

(https://public.sn2.livefilestore.com/y1pNpqq2BirOC07yGzMt_ubwLBaIbhOlFqvulqH_XL1ola9la0MYB-uTRk7cj4IpIwe1TI8U9isQa1S4k5pwCOJsg/RheaMissles.png?psid=1)

I'll post the model if anyone is interested or asks for it - you'll need to replace everything lost from the original model, however.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 08, 2012, 05:48:43 pm
Thanks for the effort put into the post. I want to make sure you're aware that we've put comparable amount of time (and words) into our discussion of the setting, and that our team spends a lot of time banging on everything from a lot of angles in order to make sure it hangs together. Where there are holes still unexplored, we see an opportunity to tell new stories and come up with interesting new gameplay.

ugh line by line responses i hate them

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Erm, the Ballista is far, far more than just a pop up Treb strike platform. Remember, you can jump in to within 2000m of a bunch of fighter wings, and fire massive salvos of missiles of any kind--Slammer, EMP, Harpoon, Tornado, Grimmler--you name it. Sure, human-players can dodge a couple Trebuchets, but how effectively can they evade 20 Tornadoes, two Harpoons, and a Slammer all at once? If it's hard for an experienced, good player, then all but the best pilots in the setting would be dead meat in the face of such an attack.

Well...honestly...probably pretty easily. Aspect missiles in general aren't very good against talented human players. But the AI would certainly have trouble.

I call it a pop-up Treb strike platform because that is what it'll be best at. I don't think the other proposed uses are comparable in terms of strategic utility. The only more devastating application I can see is as an SSM spotter, but I'm not sure the launch capability exists right now to fulfill the demand.

The idea of precision jumps like you're describing, to kill capship engines or whatnot, seems to predicate local air superiority already; you would need it to keep your Auroras safe long enough to plot the jumps. That's a challenge your doctrine needs to answer.

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Flares? What? None of these missiles are heat-seeking! They're all radar, ladar, laser, or dumbfired! Chaff would never work, even on a larger scale (you can't make it look anything like the ship or a subsystem, and without high speed maneuvering, the entire dynamic/system/nature of chaff is rendered moot; you'd also need a gigantic amount of chaff for even a single usage, which is just plain impractical or unfeasible on capships)! You'd need ECM, and good ones. The only kind of ship that demonstrates that in any combat capacity is an AWACS ship, and those are rare and fragile.

As a flight sim vet, I'm very well aware of the difference between flares and chaff. But countermeasures in FreeSpace work on all kinds of guidance. They seem to function more as full-spectrum target simulacra than anything else. (A pretty basic image-recognition sensor would defeat this, but that's the kind of logic that leads to 'why do ships stop when they're disabled...?)

Capship flares as implemented in R2 will be effective against heatseeking and aspect-seeking warheads. They're going to look like big glowing flares because that's more readable to players than nigh-invisible black disks, and it's cool. There's doubtless a countermeasure unit in there, but it's glowy.

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And there's no way the UEF (or even the GTVA) could develop and implement such a system so quickly. I mean, we're talking years, unless it's your top priority, to deploy an effective version of it on more than a handful of ships. Rushing it would make the whole thing vastly more expensive, too.

Why, it's almost as if both sides of the war have been struggling to find a way to protect their warships against massed missile fire for 18 months!  ;7

Developing a turret or hull-mounted system to spew a lot of countermeasures into space is not wildly difficult to implement en masse, and you'll be seeing quite a bit of it in R2.

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To give you an idea, it'd be like implementing today's stealth technology onto naval ships.

May I remind you, for just a moment, who's running the setting here? :) With that in mind, I'd like to give you an idea.

I think a better analogy is replacement of the CIWS systems aboard USN warships. The Phalanx gun is being retired in favor of SeaRAM, and the new SeaRAM units simply slot into the old Phalanx mounts with no need for a lot of additional infrastructure. The refit is comparatively simple, and enormous numbers of SeaRAM units are on order.

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Otherwise, you'd need to take them Up To Eleven (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOx_wHhitqk)

It's funny that you selected this video, because it's exactly the one we've linked to show the visual effect we're going for with capship flares.

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the scale you'd need for capships would make this unfeasible. Flares are much easier to launch, are far more cost/space efficient, and are ACTIVE countermeasures, as opposed to chaff, which is more passive--it's just metal. You can design a flare that, despite being the size of a mouse, burns like a super-hot fireball--even though it only lasts a few seconds at best, that's all it needs. Chaff is basically scrap metal. It isn't launched so much as released, and the high speed and maneuvering of the jet distances the chaff from the jet. Capships have no such option. You'd need a massive amount of chaff, launched at high speed, for it to work at all. Additionally, the chaff (and the pattern it makes when launched) would have to somehow look like missile's target. Which is a massive, slow warship. Have fun with trying to make that work.

I'm not sure why you presume the people you're talking to are able to use ACM brevity code in their FreeSpace mod but don't know the basics of common defensive countermeasures. You, on the other hand, have a few factual misconceptions that need clearing up:

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That's for passive ECM. Active ECM is more like those "R2-D2" missile intercept systems that USN carriers have, in terms of cost and scale; they're expensive, took a while to develop, and even today are too expensive to mount on non-capital ships. Israel's Iron Dome took years to develop, costs quite a lot per unit, and is still only a few in number despite it being a very high priority for Israel; they're building several more, but I hope you get the idea.

Active ECM has nothing to do with CIWS systems like the 'R2-D2' Phalanx, Trophy, or Goalkeeper. These are termed active protection systems. Active ECM is jamming conducted on the electromagnetic spectrum. CIWS systems are incredibly common in FreeSpace, with the UEF's Khatvanga being one obvious example, the GTVA's Phalanx AAA beam another.

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1) The UEF's capability. Sol is supposed to have an industrial and infrastructure capacity that rivals the entire GTVA (or at least its Terran side). Granted, that was BEFORE the GTVA invasion, but still. Where are the UEF's production capabilities? It doesn't seem to actually have any--Uriel fighters are apparently an endangered species. New warships are unheard of. War materiel is vastly more valuable than people. Why is this the case?

What evidence do you have for this? After eighteen months of warfare, the UEF still retains sufficient military power to deter a coup de main by the ten GTVA destroyer battle groups committed to the war directly or in reserve. Vast amounts of ordnance have been expended, yet significant warload remains in stock.

You suggest new warships are unheard of, yet a frigate has a build time of probably 1-2 years, and there have clearly been some introduced to match past losses. If anything the problem here is that the UEF is producing too much, not too little.

You suggest that war materiel is vastly more valuable than people, yet if anything the opposite is true. One key factor in the UEF's slow slide backwards is their loss of trained personnel. The GTVA (like the Pacific Theater US air corps in WW2) rotates its experienced pilots to the rear to train new pilots. The UEF is forced to run its aces until they break or die.

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This big, secret project Bei is working on would explain it, true. Though how such a project would stay a secret really stretches suspension of disbelief, as most the UEF's industrial capacity is being directed to a single, massive project, even as a desperate war of self-defense against a vastly more powerful enemy gradually gains more and more ground. The fact that the project's very existence is almost treated like a rumor by Admiral Calder himself--when speaking to the other two top admirals of the UEF--makes no sense. You'd expect knowledge of the existence of some secret, big UEF project to at least be widely known, especially for morale purposes.

So, this is really the biggest problem: the UEF is just too weak, and far too incapable of replacing losses (aside from poorly trained pilots or cheap fighters), along with showing very little capability to develop new technologies/designs. It can adapt its tactics to a decent degree, but it has yet to adapt technologically, logistically, or militarily.

You're making assumptions here which do not appear to be in evidence from the campaign, and treating what should be interesting clues as dead ends.

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2) Lore and gameplay contradiction. The UEF's big advantage is supposed to be major fighter superiority (which is itself partially due to the UEF's military being strictly designed around the expectation that all conflict would only be in Sol). In game, this isn't the case, as only the best UEF fighters are superior to GTVA ones, and only the Uriel is a major threat to capships (unless you have space dominance, which means you're going to need enough fighters to match the GTVA in such a battle), and considering how the UEF can't replace its losses, and the extreme adaptability of the GTVA, this should no longer be the case at all.

Almost every UEF fighter is demonstrably superior to its tactical analogue in one way or another. Match the Uhlan against the Perseus, for example - they have similar performance but the Uhlan is more heavily armed and slightly more flexible. And it seems, uh, a little odd to say that only the Uriel is a major threat to capships with the Durga and Vajradhara there, each capable of single-handedly mauling a corvette.

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Actually, wait. The Vasudans are likely giving military support now, and they already started giving major logistical support earlier, too. So yeah, I give it a few months at best before the GTVA launches a final assault and crushes the remainder of the UEF. If they decided not to care about taking a bit heavier losses, they could launch that assault in under a month.

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If more than one GTVA destroyer battle-group attacks a significant asset/thing, then you will not counter it with a second Solaris battle-group. You will give it up. This is because it's a clear and classic Xanatos Gambit--they win whichever way you act--but choosing to engage would result in disaster, rather than ceding that asset/territory. Instead of losing a refinery or city, you'd lose a Solaris, or the most critical/core of your infrastructure/assets. Either one would mean that ultimate defeat could be expected as early as a week or two afterward.

This strategy is all about buying time. You're giving up bits and pieces rapidly in order to conserve your core and most vital of assets, as well as your ships, which are the only thing standing between the GTVA and total victory. Samuel Bei says he and his project just needs more time. Well, here's his time. It's as much as he can get, short of a ceasefire to sue for peace.

I think this is very cogent, accurate assessment.

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Honestly, you've got an intertwining of story, setting, and gameplay here. You can have weaknesses reflected in other ways than gameplay. The M1-Abrams tank is a good example; it's got speed, firepower, heavy armor, ruggedness, range, etc. But it's more expensive for it, not just in terms of building one, but in maintenance costs--a jet engine requires a lot of maintenance after rugged operations in a desert. Using that incredible speed means using a lot of fuel, so you need a good supply chain. And, you know, fuel costs money.

You don't say! If we'd thought of this, we could've written a bunch of fluff about how UEF fighters are shorter-endurance, more expensive, and harder to maintain!

I don't mean to sound snippy here, but...the material's there. At points like this you seem to be veering into an odd kind of backseat modding where you recommend wholeheartedly that we do things we've been doing since day 1. It's not a bad thing to reach the same conclusions we have - it's flattering! - but we'll obviously get a bit prickly if you try to sell them to us as insights we've missed.

And unfortunately the odds of an EMP missile of any kind showing up in a campaign that's not voice acted are pretty low, since they scramble HUD messages.

Thanks again for the time and thought.
I think the notes I made in my prior post are starting to echo, and would have even if I'd not have said anything at all - it's just common sense....

Please play the campaign so that you can be sure you're giving salient, useful advice that would add to rather than (in this case) seriously detract from the tactical role assigned to a vessel. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 10, 2012, 08:28:57 pm
About ECM: I admit I had some serious gaps in my understanding on modern ECM and countermeasures; you're correct on a lot of counts. I totally screwed up on those perceptions, and I respect you so much for being so courteous and diplomatic when you corrected my misconceptions.

With regards to ship-based ECM: aside from the rapid-launched countermeasures (appearing like flares), you're going to need some kind of continually reusable system. The flares seem to be good for high intensity, "emergency" use (i.e., a big salvo of torpedoes or anti-subsystem missiles incoming), but they're not something that will effectively work over a prolonged engagement/usage. So you'd need some kind of supplament. I'm thinking an ECM package that jams guidance actively or passively, something along the lines of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/ALQ-99, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/ALQ-135 (especially this one), and stuff like the ECM mentioned in the standalone Karuna mission (I only very recently discovered it; I was floored that it even existed; very impressive, and pretty good in general execution despite several significant areas lacking refinement and polish. Overall, it's exactly the kind of gameplay that I've been craving for years, and I'd absolutely love to see more of it). That said, I think ECM is currently too effective against beam cannons. This gets especially jarring when, at a beam weapon's maximum range, they can be manually aimed by sight, without the use of radar/LADAR/LIDAR/whatever. Just a simple camera and "point and shoot" system operated by a gunnery officer. The cost of this, I think, should be that it does less damage (the beam doesn't continually target the same spot on the target's hull, resulting in the effect being more spread out, but not in an effective way against subsystems like slashing beams), especially to subsystems.

On the flip side of things, the UEF has a big advantage when it comes to any ECM contest: mass drivers and gauss cannons. Those things would work pretty well regardless of whatever jamming is being done; so long as you can point the ship at the target, you're set. Of course, Apocalypse torpedoes are another matter entirely...


When it comes to the Ballista:
It's still very cost-effective and strategically flexible, except that now it's not gamebreakingly-OP (Yes!). As for why it's still different from Ares usage (because some are still skeptical):
1) Unlike the Ares, the Ballista can jump in (and usually, with the help of an Aurora or Pegasus fighter, or in some cases an AWACS, it jumps in with precision), launch its payload rapidly, and jump out before taking any damage. The Ares cannot jump out nearly fast enough; if enemy fighters are not sufficiently deterred by the Treb strike (or are unable to go and pursue them), the Ares often die.
2) Ares are far more expensive to produce and maintain than the Ballista. Just to give you an idea, an Ares is basically a heavily armored and shielded assault fighter with good firepower and good-sized missile capacity. It also handles like a potato (canon words, I think). The Ballista will too, of course, but it's fine in the Ballista's case, as it won't be in the field of engagement long enough to threaten it, and it's not going to need to do much maneuvering at all.
3) Ballistas have a much higher missile capacity than Ares. The Ballista is, figuratively, a large missile battery; it's not merely well-suited for missile attacks, each Ballista is a miniature Macross Missile Massacre in its own right. Ballistas are typically seen in numbers of ten or more. Think of the missile spam...
4) Because of the above points, Ballistas can field and effectively deploy a vast array of missile types; Ares are essentially limited to Treb strikes. Thus, a group of 8 Ballistas can jump in 2000m from a frigate, fire dozens of Stilhetos, EMP-missiles, Cyclops torpedoes, TAG-missiles (remember, a TAG'ed frigate is highly vulnerable to enemy beam fire, regardless of ECM and AWACS), you name it. It can jump in 2000m off a fighter squadron's flank, and fire a hailstorm of Tornadoes, Harpoons, Slammers, EMP-missiles, etc, and jump out before enemy fighters can even hope of engaging them.
5) Ballistas present major threats, on a strategic level, to lightly defended assets, or to semi-isolated ships when a Ballista strike is well-coordinated with the proper support. Ares do not; they are insufficient in the former as they can only attack assets that are vulnerable enough for any other assault fighter or bomber to be capable of destroying it, and they are ineffective in the latter as such strikes would be suicidal, less effective, and more easy to counter.
6) Ballistas, by the nature of their operation, require no ACM (Advanced Combat Maneuvering) training, escort training, or recon training, and they have a very high survival rate. This allows for lesser-trained pilots to still be effective and actively deployed, but also gives them combat experience which can make subsequent training (ACM, escort, etc.) easier/faster.
7) Ballistas, because of the strategic threat they represent, result in indirect effects on the enemy's strategic deployment, morale, logistics, supply lines, and puts the enemy in a more defensive position, giving you more strategic initiative.
8) To re-emphasize: Ares can only do limited Treb strikes, and often get killed for it regardless whenever the Treb strike itself is not a sufficient deterrent to pursuit. Ballistas can strike with practically anything, and can carry a wide variety and amount of it, too; they can jump in right within range of their ordinance, launch said ordinace quickly, and jump out before taking harm. Any Ares (or other craft) attempting a similar tactic would likely die, and would most certainly not be able to jump out quickly.

And no, Ares can't jump that frequently; at the least, I've never seen them or any typical fighter do so (atypical ones being those like Pegasi, or Uriel; not saying I've seen them do it, just that I'm not sure), and certainly not an Ares. Besides, though, we're often talking about a window of less than 15 seconds, sometimes even shorter than 10.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 10, 2012, 08:33:17 pm
I think the notes I made in my prior post are starting to echo, and would have even if I'd not have said anything at all - it's just common sense. Why not just use a modular weapon system already lying around which can either be modified in the field or easily re-tooled back in the factories at home? Here's the missile boat Rhea - it might need a bit of re-working to the base mesh, as this was more of a concept model rather than something to be put back in FS. All one has to do is mirror the main weapons pod...

(https://public.sn2.livefilestore.com/y1pNpqq2BirOC07yGzMt_ubwLBaIbhOlFqvulqH_XL1ola9la0MYB-uTRk7cj4IpIwe1TI8U9isQa1S4k5pwCOJsg/RheaMissles.png?psid=1)

I'll post the model if anyone is interested or asks for it - you'll need to replace everything lost from the original model, however.

This is probably the better approach, in hindsight, especially from a game design/budget perspective. In this model, you'd want to replace the gun banks with further missile pods, and you'd probably want to either add more missile pods or enlarge the existing ones.

However, that's a little more...sleek and fighter-y than the concept probably calls for. The concept is supposed to be kind of bulky; more like an Ursa or Medusa than a Perseus, if you get what I mean. Still, this model would work pretty nicely. Not as much of a missile payload as the concept calls for (again, if possible, replace the gun banks with missile banks), but still works well.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 10, 2012, 08:41:21 pm
With regards to ship-based ECM: aside from the rapid-launched countermeasures (appearing like flares), you're going to need some kind of continually reusable system. The flares seem to be good for high intensity, "emergency" use (i.e., a big salvo of torpedoes or anti-subsystem missiles incoming), but they're not something that will effectively work over a prolonged engagement/usage. So you'd need some kind of supplament. I'm thinking an ECM package that jams guidance actively or passively, something along the lines of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/ALQ-99, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/ALQ-135 (especially this one)

We've always assumed that all warships have pretty extensive EW/ESM capabilities, but it's always a struggle to figure out how to depict these in gameplay aside from exceptional uses. Generally we consider this omnipresent jamming to be part of a ship's armor class, hampering targeting so the enemy can't exploit damaged armor or whatever.

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That said, I think ECM is currently too effective against beam cannons. This gets especially jarring when, at a beam weapon's maximum range, they can be manually aimed by sight, without the use of radar/LADAR/LIDAR/whatever. Just a simple camera and "point and shoot" system operated by a gunnery officer. The cost of this, I think, should be that it does less damage (the beam doesn't continually target the same spot on the target's hull, resulting in the effect being more spread out, but not in an effective way against subsystems like slashing beams), especially to subsystems.

I'm not sure it's ever spelled out explicitly, but we actually worked out precisely why beams cannot be dumbfired. The beam system requires a magnetic confinement bottle all the way from the emitter to the target to keep the plasma from dispersing, succumbing to Aifven cavitation, or otherwise nullifying its own destructive power. Part of the reason the Jovians were the first to come up with beam jamming tech is because they'd spend so long studying the Jupiter electromagnetic system and the Jupiter-Io flux tube - the first UEF AWACS ships were converted science vessels designed for use in this environment. They were able to disrupt these magnetic bottles and render the beams at least temporarily ineffective.

You probably don't want to build your Ballista design off the Rhea because the Rhea spaceframe is fluffed as something that didn't quite click. Adding additional missile payload would slow it down and hamper its maneuverability, which compromises the only real strengths it has. (Slow bombers in the UEF theater do really, really, really dreadfully.)
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Alex Heartnet on May 10, 2012, 09:08:04 pm
Subspace jumps can be tracked.

I'm pretty sure the technology/knowledge to track ships through subspace was shared with Sol before the destruction of the Lucifer sealed off the node (although I would have to play Freespace again to make sure).  Even if it wasn't, we have to keep in mind that all GTVA technology is designed to confront the Shivans, who most certainly do have subspace jump tracking technology.

Your Ballista fighters could easily be traced back to their rallying point and blasted by a jump 5 team, along with the support ship that would presumably be rearming them, and if the counterattack comes quick enough, the Ballistas won't have time to warm up their drives for another jump.  Ares and Rhea fighters could at least defend themselves until their drives come back online.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Axem on May 10, 2012, 09:22:12 pm
You say that all you need is 10-15 seconds to release your missile massacre.

Trebuchets require a minimum 3.5 second lock time.
Cyclops need 5 seconds.
Helios need 7 seconds.

Sounds short, but we all know how much more stretched out those times can get. But lets say average 5 second missile lock. You fire all of your missiles at the same time, something the game doesn't let you do normally, but we'll say it happens. Now lets say bomb release is instantaneous. We can't have any weapon cycling since we're on a tight schedule. All missiles away, and we hit our subspace drives.

How does the other side see this? Warp flash, Ballistas arrive, it takes around 2 seconds for a ship to arrive from subspace. It takes about 3 seconds for a Kent to do a full 360 turn. So it'll take at maximum 1.5 seconds for a Kent to turn to a Ballista. As soon as the Ballista can look around, the Kent already has it in its sights. In the 5 seconds it takes a Ballista to lock on, the Kent has gone into afterburners and has traveled about 1km. If the Ballista arrives 2km away, the Kent is now in fighting distance. Let's not forget that Slammers have a targeting range of 2500m. Slammers have a target lock time about the same as a Treb, so we could say that both the Kent and the Ballista fire missiles at the same time. Now the Ballista has a 450m/s slammer coming at it (250m/s base velocity + 200m/s boosted by the Kent that fired at it.) It only needs 2 seconds to cover the last kilometer. In that last 2 seconds, the Ballista has to warp out completely.

I'm sure we all remember how painful and harrowing warping out under fire is. Takes more than a few seconds to A) beginning to charge up subspace drives, and B) passing through the portal. And the Ballista can't move out of the way and is stuck in a relatively slow velocity. I'd hope the shields hold, but I don't think any bomber can withstand a double slammer strike.

If these Ballista pilots aren't the quickest draws in the west, they're not going to live to see a second sortie.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Alex Heartnet on May 10, 2012, 09:37:21 pm
-snip-
How does the other side see this? Warp flash, Ballistas arrive, it takes around 2 seconds for a ship to arrive from subspace. It takes about 3 seconds for a Kent to do a full 360 turn.
-snip-

The Kent is not the UEF's most commonly used fighter, though.  A wing of Uhlans does not carry Slammer missiles, and is considerably slower.  If the GTVA has an Aurora on station to call in this Ballista strike, they can easily see if there are any Kents in the area, and if so, if they are currently too preoccupied to deal with a Ballista threat.  In fact, a threat assessment like that doesn't even require an Aurora's sensors, and can be done by any fighter that is not currently engaged.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 10, 2012, 09:41:23 pm
Uhlans can carry Slammers (and surely would in response to such a threat), and the Kent is pretty widely deployed in Second and Third fleets. If the Ballista doctrine requires local space superiority, that removes a bit of its notional advantage.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Axem on May 10, 2012, 09:42:01 pm
The UEF will be sure to have Kents deployed with targets that Ballistas would most likely hit. If the presence of a Kent wing can deter a Ballista wing from arriving, then the Kents won by not even fighting!
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Scotty on May 10, 2012, 09:46:40 pm
Indeed.  The entire Ballista platform relies several factors that are, quite frankly, either improbable, or once the tactic has been used once, nearly impossible.

For the Ballista to adequately perform its duties without dying in job lots it has to:
A) Arive undetected.  This means the enemy cannot know of their involvement in the battle beforehand.  This also means that their use is contingent entirely on surprise.  If you don't surprise your targets, you die.
B) Acheive perfect jump position.  Your wing has to warp out at minimum 2 kilometers from enemy craft to avoid being turned into swiss cheese.  This limits your target selection hugely, because warping in 2 kilometers from a warship leaves you about 500 to 1000 meters away from the fighter craft escorting it, and even closer to its warship escorts.
C) Actually acheive tactical surprise, too, or your torpedo/treb salvo will get Countermeasured into ineffectiveness.  Maybe even then.

A single misjump (ala the Vatican) or unexpected enemy warp-in will shred entire flights of Ballistas.

I also continue to stress that no matter how cheap the actual platform is, developing new technologies is expensive.

Plus, having missile space means less than nothing when you only fire one salvo.  If you stay to fire more than one, you die.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 10, 2012, 10:22:33 pm
Thanks for the effort put into the post. I want to make sure you're aware that we've put comparable amount of time (and words) into our discussion of the setting, and that our team spends a lot of time banging on everything from a lot of angles in order to make sure it hangs together. Where there are holes still unexplored, we see an opportunity to tell new stories and come up with interesting new gameplay.

I fully admit that my knowledge of the setting was incomplete at the time I came up with the Ballista concept, and to varying degrees until relatively recently.

Summing up my experience with WiH's setting and plot is basically having serious issues (or confusion) with several things, until finding and reading more of the supplamentary material, which made it (for the most part) make sense and intrigue me greatly. I can see how much time and thought you've put into this, and it shows; I think part of my problem was how I experienced the setting (mainly WiH's)--I read through all of AoA's suppl. material when I finished that campaign, and did the same with WiH's, but as a result a lot of things didn't quite add up until that point. My fault, I suppose. Well, that, and playing through the entire campaign in a single day while sleep deprived and very stressed out in the background.


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1) The UEF's capability. Sol is supposed to have an industrial and infrastructure capacity that rivals the entire GTVA (or at least its Terran side). Granted, that was BEFORE the GTVA invasion, but still. Where are the UEF's production capabilities? It doesn't seem to actually have any--Uriel fighters are apparently an endangered species. New warships are unheard of. War materiel is vastly more valuable than people. Why is this the case?
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What evidence do you have for this? After eighteen months of warfare, the UEF still retains sufficient military power to deter a coup de main by the ten GTVA destroyer battle groups committed to the war directly or in reserve. Vast amounts of ordnance have been expended, yet significant warload remains in stock.

You suggest new warships are unheard of, yet a frigate has a build time of probably 1-2 years, and there have clearly been some introduced to match past losses. If anything the problem here is that the UEF is producing too much, not too little.
Huh? Perhaps I just totally missed a few cues here and there, but that wasn't the impression I got from playing WiH (or reading its supplamentary material, unless I missed something or misunderstood it). Calder called out the Elders and other admirals for continually diverting massive resources to that "secret project". Until Steele gained full command, the other GTVA admiral basically played a game of skirmishing, with UEF fighters playing a major role in repelling attacks; that admiral specifically avoided total war or going against "the book"--I take this to mean that he didn't ever target civilians or commit to large battles. From what I understand, losses on both sides were relatively light except in fighters, where the shortage of skilled and well-trained pilots in the UEF (and depleted number of Uriels) is met by consistently good (or even better) skilled/trained pilots, and no shortage of more valuable fighters.

The strong impression I got was that the UEF's policies, coupled with the prolonged skirmish warfare that resulted in relatively few ship losses on either side (but significant fighter losses), meant that the UEF hadn't stepped up its production into overdrive or done all that much in new tech/weapons development (though this impression was somewhat changed when I discovered and played the Karuna mission). This impression was reinforced when each frigate loss throughout the campaign was treated as a major loss, a blow that was somewhat irreplaceable.

The very fact that the UEF has ended up in a pilot situation like Imperial Japan's seems indicative of their military's weak endurance overall. Aside from the fact that the UEF should have known better (this is EARTH we're talking about; this stuff is their direct history), if the situation really was that desperate from the beginning and continued for 18 months, then it strongly suggests that the UEF can't effectively replace its losses, knows it, and sacrificed their pilot capital to preserve their ships. This is mirrored, I think, by the fact that the more advanced UEF fighters--the ones truly superior to those of the GTVA--have been growing steadily rarer, and the lesser fighter classes have become more prevalent to pick up the slack.
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You suggest that war materiel is vastly more valuable than people, yet if anything the opposite is true. One key factor in the UEF's slow slide backwards is their loss of trained personnel. The GTVA (like the Pacific Theater US air corps in WW2) rotates its experienced pilots to the rear to train new pilots. The UEF is forced to run its aces until they break or die.
Very true, but it seems this is mainly limited to the case of the pilots. No mention of this issue is made about any other area. Add to that that thousands of civilians are thrown away to deny the enemy assets, and civilians are used as distractions (or ignored as unimportant) for military objectives, and you've got a heck of a trend. As for the UEF's policies with its aces--if the situation is that bad throughout the entire war, then it's true that the UEF can't effectively replace its losses, nor can it truly strengthen its fleet more than its losses weaken it.

And those ace policies apply to nearly everything in the UEF, too. Not just ship crews, but the ships themselves; only fighter losses (mainly those of the standard issue fighters and average or inexperienced pilots) and treated as truly expendable--well, them, and civilians (see what I mean?); they can't let an enemy take that refinery so they blow it up and kill the thousands of civilians on board. They can't risk sending more than a few rookie pilots in standard fighters to protect a civilian refugee/supply convoy under heavy attack.

Contrast that with FS2--"Command is committed to getting every last Terran out of Capella." And they mean it, too--they send many ships to just hold the Shivans off to do so. FS2's final mission reflects this, too. In FS1, the GTA sent entire battle groups to defend Vasuda Prime, just to buy time for the evacuation; the Bastion and her fighter squadrons even aided in escorting the final refugees, even when the possibility of the Lucifer being around (or heading for Earth) remained.

In short, scorched-earth policies are extreme but possibly necessary, but scorched-earth policies that explicitly kill tens of thousands of civilians--especially when there are huge reserves readily available--seems pretty damn indicative of something, to me.

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This big, secret project Bei is working on would explain it, true. Though how such a project would stay a secret really stretches suspension of disbelief, as most the UEF's industrial capacity is being directed to a single, massive project, even as a desperate war of self-defense against a vastly more powerful enemy gradually gains more and more ground. The fact that the project's very existence is almost treated like a rumor by Admiral Calder himself--when speaking to the other two top admirals of the UEF--makes no sense. You'd expect knowledge of the existence of some secret, big UEF project to at least be widely known, especially for morale purposes.

So, this is really the biggest problem: the UEF is just too weak, and far too incapable of replacing losses (aside from poorly trained pilots or cheap fighters), along with showing very little capability to develop new technologies/designs. It can adapt its tactics to a decent degree, but it has yet to adapt technologically, logistically, or militarily.

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You're making assumptions here which do not appear to be in evidence from the campaign, and treating what should be interesting clues as dead ends.
This was just the impression that I got--and for the most part still have--from playing the game and reading the supplamentary material. The exception is the capability to develop new technologies--the Karuna mission I very recently discovered proved that assertion completely wrong, and the tech displayed in that mission was pretty astounding (especially the damage control; that feature is incredible, even if very limited in usage during intense battles). However, this also made the events of Delenda Est quite confusing--why didn't the Katana use its jamming tech on the Imperieuse? It had no reason to use active armor, and damage control was not tactically advisable yet (they were still right in the middle of battle against a beam cannon-using Carthage), and the chances that both the Katana and its partner ship (or the Indus and Yangtze, if they had it) couldn't use their ECM for the entire time of their engagement with the Imperieuse?

As for the weak/cheap fighters--the impression I got was that the common UEF fighter is just equivalent to common GTVA fighters, and I hated flying the common UEF fighter. Yes, I actually liked the Perseus better, and felt that the Perseus was better. The other UEF fighters, though, are excellent, and truly reflect the fighter superiority (at least in terms of design/technology, in this war of theater) of the UEF. The problem, though, is that the story and material seems to strongly suggest that they've become rarer and rarer sights, especially as the number of pilots who can effectively take advantage of them dwindles. Thus, I think the GTVA has, with the destruction of the War Gods, achieved fighter superiority (barely). No comment on those White Knights; never had the chance to fly the fighter or view its specs, and it never really got the chance to prove itself on the one mission it's featured in (mainly because I was too focused on dogfighting myself, instead of on my allies fighting the enemy). As for the UEF bombers--for some reason, I just don't remember ever really seeing them. I'm sure they were in an allied wing once or twice, but I never used one, and I never had a case where one helped me or was particularly effective. Besides, most GTVA ships have insane AA; throw in some fighter cover and it's hard for those bombers to do much damage.

Oh yeah, there was that one case against Serker, but the corvettes just jumped away without taking major damage, and several of the bombers were shot down.

As for the other assumptions: again, they came from my experience and impressions from playing through the game and then reading the material.

At best, Narayanas (and the rare deployment of a Solaris) forced GTVA forces to retreat; the Narayanas were capable of this because their gauss cannons have incredible range. However, they seem to be in short supply these days, especially after Serker killed another two. Otherwise, you'd need an AWACS (which seem to be quite rare in the UEF, and they're all converted science vessels that were very limited in number to begin with) to win against evenly matched ships (again, impression I got). The intro cutscene alone really nails home how big the power gap is--it was a Curb Stomp Battle. Not even ramming worked, even to buy time. As soon as the AWACS is destroyed in Delenda Est, the ability for four UEF frigates and two cruisers, along with gunship support (and the Carthage having no fighters), the Carthage was still a major threat; assuming Alpha 1 isn't the pilot, the Carthage might have actually won (unlikely, but possible; more likely, I think, is that the War Gods take heavy losses in the battle, losing most of the force).

I feel like I got all the wrong impressions, but I'm unsure as to why or how that came to be the case.


As for the secret project--I suppose I'm most confused about why Calder doesn't seem to know what it is, or if he does, he doesn't care about it or think very much of it. Which is also odd. If the Council of Elders think it can end the war (likely through peace/negotiation), then why would Calder not think highly of it? If the Elders want to finish the project and use it exclusively by themselves (or at least just with the UEF, and not the GTVA), then the whole buying time sentiment makes sense along with Calder's resentment (for the most part).

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2) Lore and gameplay contradiction. The UEF's big advantage is supposed to be major fighter superiority (which is itself partially due to the UEF's military being strictly designed around the expectation that all conflict would only be in Sol). In game, this isn't the case, as only the best UEF fighters are superior to GTVA ones, and only the Uriel is a major threat to capships (unless you have space dominance, which means you're going to need enough fighters to match the GTVA in such a battle), and considering how the UEF can't replace its losses, and the extreme adaptability of the GTVA, this should no longer be the case at all.

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Almost every UEF fighter is demonstrably superior to its tactical analogue in one way or another. Match the Uhlan against the Perseus, for example - they have similar performance but the Uhlan is more heavily armed and slightly more flexible. And it seems, uh, a little odd to say that only the Uriel is a major threat to capships with the Durga and Vajradhara there, each capable of single-handedly mauling a corvette.
I talked about this above, but mainly: hardly ever saw bombers in action, and the one time I distinctly remember them, they jumped Serker, didn't do that much damage before Serker jumped out, and half the bomber force died.

As for the Uhlan--really? That's...surprising. I hated flying the Uhlan. I would have jumped at the opportunity to fly a Perseus instead. The Perseus--man, equip it with four Balors and any arrangement of Tempests, Tornadoes, Trebuchets, or Harpoons, and I'd be a very happy man. I think the root of this problem is that I hated (and still do) UEF guns. If I could equip Balors on the Uhlan, I think I'd enjoy using it so much more. I mean, a Maul or Rapier does NOT mesh well with Hellfires; they travel at vastly different speeds and rates of fire, making them a major pain to use in the situation when I want to use them most.

But the problem, I think, is that the GTVA is really outpacing the UEF in this area; each side started with some advantages (the UEF with much more in the fighter department), but while the UEF has relatively few Uriels remaining, and most of its fighters seem to be Uhlans piloted by not-well-trained newbies, the GTVA has developed and fielded new fighters and better pilots in bulk (though definitely not the BEST pilots, which the UEF undoubtedly has).

Again, this mirrors the Pacific Theater in WW2. Eventually, the GTVA will start fielding new, powerful fighters in large numbers to an entire air force of good-but-not-great pilots, while the UEF's advanced fighters become increasingly rarer, just like their skilled pilots, and the majority of UEF pilots "suck" (to be overgeneralizing and figurative) and fly the same mainstay fighter that they flew in the beginning of the war. At some point, the GTVA will gain a major advantage in the realm of fighters and pilots that the UEF will never match, if that point hasn't been reached now anyway. After Delenda Est, things seem to have reached a critical point.

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Actually, wait. The Vasudans are likely giving military support now, and they already started giving major logistical support earlier, too. So yeah, I give it a few months at best before the GTVA launches a final assault and crushes the remainder of the UEF. If they decided not to care about taking a bit heavier losses, they could launch that assault in under a month.

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If more than one GTVA destroyer battle-group attacks a significant asset/thing, then you will not counter it with a second Solaris battle-group. You will give it up. This is because it's a clear and classic Xanatos Gambit--they win whichever way you act--but choosing to engage would result in disaster, rather than ceding that asset/territory. Instead of losing a refinery or city, you'd lose a Solaris, or the most critical/core of your infrastructure/assets. Either one would mean that ultimate defeat could be expected as early as a week or two afterward.

This strategy is all about buying time. You're giving up bits and pieces rapidly in order to conserve your core and most vital of assets, as well as your ships, which are the only thing standing between the GTVA and total victory. Samuel Bei says he and his project just needs more time. Well, here's his time. It's as much as he can get, short of a ceasefire to sue for peace.

I think this is very cogent, accurate assessment.

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Honestly, you've got an intertwining of story, setting, and gameplay here. You can have weaknesses reflected in other ways than gameplay. The M1-Abrams tank is a good example; it's got speed, firepower, heavy armor, ruggedness, range, etc. But it's more expensive for it, not just in terms of building one, but in maintenance costs--a jet engine requires a lot of maintenance after rugged operations in a desert. Using that incredible speed means using a lot of fuel, so you need a good supply chain. And, you know, fuel costs money.

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You don't say! If we'd thought of this, we could've written a bunch of fluff about how UEF fighters are shorter-endurance, more expensive, and harder to maintain!
I actually forgot about that one/overlooked it when I wrote that, and I'm sorry--you're right, you do do this stuff. Though this seems to make the UEF's situation even worse...

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I don't mean to sound snippy here, but...the material's there. At points like this you seem to be veering into an odd kind of backseat modding where you recommend wholeheartedly that we do things we've been doing since day 1. It's not a bad thing to reach the same conclusions we have - it's flattering! - but we'll obviously get a bit prickly if you try to sell them to us as insights we've missed.
Even at the time when I wrote that, I meant it in terms of (even if I failed in that regard, sorry) emphasizing and reiterating that idea as an answer to a question you had asked me. I suppose I started with answering your question posed to me, and then got somewhat carried away when explaining my answer in depth.

Tunnel-visioning, I guess? Hyperfocus? Probably what was happening with me at the time (I mean that seriously; it's something that I'm trying to learn to be more aware of and manage better).

It wasn't something that you guys didn't think of or already use, and I'm sorry for ever giving you that impression. I suppose, given the impressions I got from playing WiH that I mentioned above, the hyperfocus on answering the question in depth, and forgetting too much of the context, I screwed up that whole conveyance pretty damn badly.

Since that long post I made (the one that this quoted post is a response to), I've churned out ideas with a better grasp of the whole context. It was mainly just for personal enjoyment, but I'm curious if you'd like to take a look at them. In general, despite my stupid tendency to mis-convey my meanings/thoughts,  as well as my bad (and one that I'm trying to work on) tendency to somewhat jump the gun with my ideas, I love coming up with them (even for purely personal enjoyment and intellectual exercise), whether it's for gameplay, story, mission design, etc. In many cases, one of my ideas has already been done in a better, more refined way (because the real experts thought of it already, and went a step or several beyond just a written-out concept). Still, I'd love to help/contribute, be it on the writing team or mission balance (with regards to making many playstyles viable). I really don't want to give the impression of being pretentious here--you guys are the masters and experts, and I'd be thrilled for just the opportunity to help a little here and there.

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And unfortunately the odds of an EMP missile of any kind showing up in a campaign that's not voice acted are pretty low, since they scramble HUD messages.
Ah...yeah, that would be a problem. Though I do have problem reading the text in general; tiny, tightly-packed light-yellow font with no border and even some transparency...it can really be a pain sometimes. Though the HUD in general has similar, bizarre problems (very limited control over the contrast or opacity, and no outlines to anything). Still...one can dream, right?

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Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 10, 2012, 10:26:05 pm
Uhlans can carry Slammers (and surely would in response to such a threat), and the Kent is pretty widely deployed in Second and Third fleets. If the Ballista doctrine requires local space superiority, that removes a bit of its notional advantage.

Slammers aren't nearly enough to stop such a missile barrage. Their AoE is barely big enough to hit a tightly packed flight of bombers.

In order to even get one on target, you'd need to be in the right place at the right time, and have enough time to gain aspect lock on the wave of missiles and fire. And you'd have to have Slammers equipped in the first place, which I assume is not a common thing, or easy to do (they're big missiles, and a niche role).
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 10, 2012, 10:37:01 pm
Good post.  :yes: If your impression was that the UEF is losing ground - absolutely the right takeaway.

We're working on some HUD upgrades on the SCP as a whole. And yes, please feel free to post up anything you've written.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: qwadtep on May 10, 2012, 10:42:16 pm
Ares are perfectly capable of delivering their payloads and jumping away in seconds. You might want to replay Collateral Damage (which, I should note, accounts for more than half the Ares fighters you encounter in the entire campaign). The rest are encountered in defense of their respective carriers with lots of friendlies around to cover them.

But while we're inventing problems to fix I think that Uhlans die too often against Diomedes the Feds should give them better armor and shields and drives and Apocalypse#Narayana launchers and the ability to transform into Buster Machines and  :eek:
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: SaltyWaffles on May 10, 2012, 11:15:46 pm
Indeed.  The entire Ballista platform relies several factors that are, quite frankly, either improbable, or once the tactic has been used once, nearly impossible.

For the Ballista to adequately perform its duties without dying in job lots it has to:
A) Arive undetected.  This means the enemy cannot know of their involvement in the battle beforehand.  This also means that their use is contingent entirely on surprise.  If you don't surprise your targets, you die.
B) Acheive perfect jump position.  Your wing has to warp out at minimum 2 kilometers from enemy craft to avoid being turned into swiss cheese.  This limits your target selection hugely, because warping in 2 kilometers from a warship leaves you about 500 to 1000 meters away from the fighter craft escorting it, and even closer to its warship escorts.
C) Actually acheive tactical surprise, too, or your torpedo/treb salvo will get Countermeasured into ineffectiveness.  Maybe even then.

A single misjump (ala the Vatican) or unexpected enemy warp-in will shred entire flights of Ballistas.

I also continue to stress that no matter how cheap the actual platform is, developing new technologies is expensive.

Plus, having missile space means less than nothing when you only fire one salvo.  If you stay to fire more than one, you die.

On your last point--obviously, the Ballista would have modified fire control systems, allowing it to lock on to multiple targets at once, and fire pretty much all of its missiles at once (like an MLRS, missiles would be capable of all firing at the same time; no cycling required. This is because of its dedicated missile barrage spam role/design).

Pretty much none of the Ballista's tech is truly new--sprint drives have been in use on a destroyer for months. Additionally, developing fighter-scale sprint drives will pay major dividends in both the immediate and near future, so developing that new technology is an investment that goes far beyond just the Ballista.

On each of your ABC points:
A) This is not true, at all. If they're expecting a Ballista strike imminently, that does not help them know where they'll jump in, and may not know what their targets are. Thus, even if they knew you were coming and when, they still don't know where, so the Ballista is still fine here. They'll jump out before the defenders can effectively engage them.
B) Again, no. The precision of your jump only needs to be good enough for the mission you're undertaking. A lot of the Ballista's intended missions do not require pinpoint precision, and some require very little precision at all. Even if a fighter wing detects 10 Ballistas jumping in at 7KM away, and they move to engage, the Ballistas can still head right toward them, and then fire a Macross Missile Massacre when in range (which is very likely to be further than that of the fighter wing), and then jump out immediately after that, so few, if any, enemy missiles hit their targets. When high precision is needed, AWACS (or equivalent) support is needed. Regardless, jumping significantly off-course seems to be quite rare (I can only recall two instances of it, and one of them was likely the doing of the Vishnans). However, if a Ballista happens to jump off course and is not in a good position, the pilot just immediately jumps out. Problem solved?
C) Erm, why? Remember, not all pilots are legendary Alpha 1's amongst Alpha 1's. I'd really like to see them evade 8 Tornadoes, 2 Harpoons, and 2 Trebuchets per fighter, simultaneously. Likewise, jumping in at 2000-2500m from a ship, it'd be rather difficult to shoot down 50 Stilettos at once, directed at different targets. Or you could attack cargo transports. Or refineries. Or patrols of newbie fighters.

Remember, if a Ballista is jumping near advanced space superiority fighters, you're doing it wrong. The Ballista is all about hitting the enemy at its relative weak points, and jumping out before the response/counterattack/retribution. You bleed them bit by bit, but with impunity.

If you're relying on the long range of the Trebuchet, you can afford to be far less precise, and since you can launch a LOT of Trebuchets at once, you're almost guaranteed kills--even a kill or two against good pilots (NOT ELITE ALPHA 1's!). For every good pilot the UEF loses, it can't effectively replace. But since most of your targets will not be good pilots, it's a moot point; you're cost-effectively bleeding the enemy bit by bit without taking much in the way of casualties yourself.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Scotty on May 10, 2012, 11:29:06 pm
If you increase number of lock on targets, I can't imagine that you'd manage to keep the same lock on time.

A) It's entirely possible to engage and destroy a target before lock is even acheived, let alone missiles launched at multiple targets against an inbound craft.  The Romans Blunder is a good example of this.  If you know where the little convoy is jumping in, you can maul an entire flight of the Loki escort with impunity in a Myrmidon with Tempests before they even have the capability to maneuver.  Now apply that to an entire flight of Ballistas with Slammers, which can already do that to entire wings of much more durable bombers.
B) Longer range only helps the Trebuchet against large targets.  Small, fighter size targets will still be able to evade Trebuchets entirely and with relative impunity from that distance.
C) Capship countermeasures.  If you're anywhere near a capship, watch the flare(like) rain of countermeasures engulf your missile launch.  If you're not, watch as any halfway decent pilot laughs at the aspect-seeking (lack of) power of the Trebuchet.

At any rate, with the coutermeasures comment, I was anticipating UEF fighters operating in support of a capital ships asset, which is where we very very frequently see them (and honesly the only place I can think of where you'd bother AWACSing the area to get a clean jump).  Keep in mind that countermeasures don't care what your target was, they just care that there is a missile and that it is locked onto something.

Additionally, Treb spam would only be good against the AI.  Human pilots of almost any decent proficiency simply do not get hit by Trebs because countering them is very easy if you are not a cruiser or larger.

Also good to note that most UEF ships are significantly more durable than their Shivan hypothetical counterparts.  It takes more than a couple trebs to completely destroy them.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: General Battuta on May 10, 2012, 11:31:29 pm
The most productive thing at this point would be for someone to just do some quick missions
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Droid803 on May 10, 2012, 11:33:18 pm
"The AI doesn't have to acquire lock to fire missiles." - Dragon
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: The E on May 11, 2012, 01:44:22 am
It still respects the lock-on time.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: Dragon on May 11, 2012, 03:41:40 am
It still respects the lock-on time.
It does? Every time when I tested it, it didn't gave a darn about it. Granted, this was with torps and some time ago (remember the "cyclops swarm" bug? It was around that time), but I've done plenty of testing regarding that. I'm also pretty certain that AI frequently launched long-lock LR missiles at me immediately after coming into range. This might have been fixed since I tested it though.
Title: Re: Introducing the "Ballista"--right up TEI's alley
Post by: redsniper on May 11, 2012, 03:19:34 pm
the Feds should give [Uhlans] better armor and shields and drives and Apocalypse#Narayana launchers and the ability to transform into Buster Machines and  :eek:

I would totally play this mod btw. Just sayin'.