Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: JGZinv on June 05, 2012, 06:43:29 pm

Title: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: JGZinv on June 05, 2012, 06:43:29 pm
http://kotaku.com/5916011/razers-artemis-is-an-elaborately-sexy-way-to-play-mechwarrior-online

I'll take two... one for my starfighter and one for my mecha.
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: Scourge of Ages on June 05, 2012, 07:09:07 pm
Hmmmm, yes I will take one also. Yesss.
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: Thaeris on June 05, 2012, 07:39:05 pm
I wonder what they're using as the joystick's guts... It'd be interesting to see an optical stick or a hall-effect stick as opposed to the more traditional potentiometers. And given the praise I've heard for all of their other hardware, I might be interested in getting a stick from them (should they take up manufacturing joysticks in general) if and when the 3D Pro bites it. Which hopefully shouldn't be for a long time.
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: Spoon on June 05, 2012, 08:24:54 pm
I wants it.
would be especially cool if its a touchscreen
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: Nuke on June 05, 2012, 11:17:31 pm
I wonder what they're using as the joystick's guts... It'd be interesting to see an optical stick or a hall-effect stick as opposed to the more traditional potentiometers. And given the praise I've heard for all of their other hardware, I might be interested in getting a stick from them (should they take up manufacturing joysticks in general) if and when the 3D Pro bites it. Which hopefully shouldn't be for a long time.

thrustmaster and saitek seem to be the ones on the forefront of sensor tech, using hall and for the latter flex sensors. ch uses the conservative approach, and sticks with (very high quality) potentiometers. this controller looks pretty but i dont see it as being very practical. first thing that catches my eye is it uses a single spring mechanism, ive always loathed single spring mechanisms, as its better to be able to feel the tension in both axes instead of just one with little sense of direction. the grip doesnt look comfy, and the button count is less than id expect.

the screen could probibly display a very small set of graphics. if it has a complete 2d/32 graphics engine + touchscreen support, then its a good idea. if the thing has a script interpreter built in, like python or lua or some such, then it would just be a matter of streaming graphics, code, and data to the display. using like a small arm or fpga chip to do the heavy lifting. set up the api so either the game or the profile software can provide interface data. and for the love of satan make the api open. waiting for ms to develop next generation game i/o will only lead to disappointment (case in point: xinput). this is something naturalpoint should have done with the trackir's api. should have made it open so that it can become a defacto standard, which in turn causes more games to use the standard, which in turn would mean more people to buy their product. but no they wanted exclusivity, all while in the mean time ms undermines their footholed on the head tracking market with kinect, and guess whos gonna design the standard for camera based tracking systems, thats right, m ****ing s. :hopping: side rant aside, they better aim for open standards, youre selling hardware, not software. if other people follow suit and make compatible devices, it will diversify your market so what if someone does a lame under-engineered knock off.

the keypad is somewhat generic button arrangement, but i guess its ok and gives you a ****ton of buttons. there seems to be a lot of places where you could put switches knobs and dials. but all i see is a large device with a lot of wasted space, and i would need a new desk to fit it on. there appears to be a small throttle lever there, and assuming there is a 3rd axis, like a handle twist, this is good enough for a mech game, but not quite flight sim worthy. i bet the lack of inputs was to make it xinput compliant. as it seriously limits control count to whats on an xbox 360 pad. the fact that its force feedback does make up for some of the limiting characteristics, but meh. i need to see specifications, not pictures and "omg this looks so cool" reviews. that said i wont be shelfing my ch gear for anything less than a warthog.
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: Spoon on June 07, 2012, 02:01:46 pm
http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/6/6/3068821/hawken-controller-offers-a-baffling-expensive-way-to-battle-bots
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: Thaeris on June 07, 2012, 02:48:17 pm
Yes...

I don't see how it's anything new, because Steel Battallion already did it with their specialized controller, but that is genuinely cool. What concerns me is:

(a.) It's Chinese. Most things are unfortunately made in China today - nothing against the Chinese people, but local industry is good, just like local the local engineers who design products. Neither is the case with this one. It also brings about questions of quality and performance. Being a new comany, and the stigma a lot of... everything from China... seems to have, is a real turn-off.

(b.) Where are the specs? I can't seem to find the company site, and quality products are an investment. If this thing isn't any less than $250 USD, that's certainly an investment, and I'd like to know the insides of this beastie. I suppose that this may be an indicator, just like in the first post, which states that the development cycle is still turning, and the manufacturers must produce a marketable, profitable system. Now, perhaps it's just a question of how to do it.

...I'd assume anything like this should be programmable and configurable to multiple games or programs. If it's not... that's a bad oversight by the designer. At the same time... I don't know how many companies make software that can handle the kind of input that comes with a controller like that. X-Plane does, but for purposes of FreeSpace, you'd probably loose a lot of your functionality, unless the upgrade to SDL does everything we hope it will.
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: z64555 on June 07, 2012, 08:20:43 pm
DirectInput Limits:
Max 128 buttons
Max 3 analog Joysticks (or 6 axes)
Max 2 sliders (analog axes)
Max 4 POV Hats

So, it really is the software that's limiting the user, certainly not the input interface.
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: Nuke on June 07, 2012, 08:43:45 pm
DirectInput Limits:
Max 128 buttons
Max 3 analog Joysticks (or 6 axes)
Max 2 sliders (analog axes)
Max 4 POV Hats

So, it really is the software that's limiting the user, certainly not the input interface.

its still superior to xinput, the api which ms is trying to push on the pc game market:

max 4 axes
max 10 buttons
max 2 triggers (axis)
max 1 8-direction digital pad
max 4 controllers (i dont think di has a controller limit at all)

if youre gonna upgrade, UPGRADE! dont downgrade and set arbitrary limits!
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: z64555 on June 07, 2012, 08:50:44 pm
DirectInput Limits:
Max 128 buttons
Max 3 analog Joysticks (or 6 axes)
Max 2 sliders (analog axes)
Max 4 POV Hats

So, it really is the software that's limiting the user, certainly not the input interface.

its still superior to xinput, the api which ms is trying to push on the pc game market:

max 4 axes
max 10 buttons
max 2 triggers (axis)
max 1 8-direction digital pad
max 4 controllers (i dont think di has the same limit)

if youre gonna upgrade, UPGRADE! dont downgrade and set arbitrary limits!


"Upgrade to Xinput, so that you will only use the amazingly superior Xbox certified controllers!"
Title: Re: I am ready... (controller)
Post by: Nuke on June 07, 2012, 09:04:02 pm
the real sad thing is the game devs are all buying into it. there are utilities to get around this and let you use your $300+ hotas, but your still limited in terms of control counts. buttons are easily mapped to keys though, but axis limits are a real pita. and you have to run a utility to convert di devices into xinput devices, and a keymapper utility (good joysticks usually come with one). so you got to essentially map your controls twice. once in the di->xi util, and once in your keymapper, and sometimes a 3rd time in the game. it is not a sane way to do things.

So, it really is the software that's limiting the user, certainly not the input interface.

sdl does do some stuff for us, we have a unified system for all platforms for example. and frankly, supporting all the joysticks isnt that hard, regardless of the api used. you can open up multiple devices and get input data from all of them. ive written code for this under sdl. the trick is coming up with a device hash (usually the name of the joystick, the number of control elements, etc), so if you store a configuration, exit and restart (even if the order has changed do to port swapping) the same physical joystick can be mapped as it was before. joysticks can be moved to other ports or a joystick that is not used may be removed from the system, changing indices, and change the device ordering as a result, so joystick 1 might not be the same, which is why you use the hash to physically identify a joystick.