Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: jr2 on June 06, 2012, 03:42:41 am
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Just had this random idea (that was *not* inspired by Live Free or Die's SAPL, however, it does appear to be similar now that I think about it):
How about a mobile ship whose sole purpose (aside from limited pew-pew AAA defense so it's not a complete sitting duck) is to serve as a collimator for multiple syncronized beams fired from every ship that can get a bead on the Multi-Beam Collimator (MBC) ship?
Basically, with some fancy SEXP work, I think you could pull it off, and manage to have a ship that is capable of taking the firepower of the entire fleet currently with it, and redirecting that to one target for maximum pwnage.
Some things to keep in mind:
1) Somehow make the resulting fire-beam from the MBC equal the output of all the ships currently firing into the collimator, which will be affected by
2) Somehow make the fire-beam able to change in it's intensity, as different ships firing into it have different lengths of time for their respective beam-fire.
3) You could even have staggered firing, for one constange beam (of varying intensity): so group A fires at this time, group B starts firing right before A stops, and on and on...
:nervous: Thoughts? Note that I can't do anything of the sort, but if this inspires someone, well, cool! :cool:
EDIT: Just in case:
Noun:
A device for producing a parallel beam of rays or radiation.
A small fixed telescope used for adjusting the line of sight of an astronomical telescope.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Sketch_Collimator_Visible_Light_2006_04_04.png)
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Sounds like scripting time for me.
Actually, come to think of it, you could do it by creating an invisible beam (that is, one with transparent bitmaps), and then set up your collimator event in such a way that it fires one base beam (which is visible), plus a variable number of invisible beams that do the real damage.
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I have heard that a race known as Species 8472 makes use of such a technology. When they invade Cardassian space we will be ready.
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I have heard that a race known as Species 8472 makes use of such a technology. When they invade Cardassian space we will be ready.
Have they done a lot of FreeSpace modding in this, the real world, recently?
(Note, if you want to roleplay all the ****ing time, go ahead. But at least _try_ to stay on topic, okay?)
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I have heard that a race known as Species 8472 makes use of such a technology. When they invade Cardassian space we will be ready.
Completely forgot about that. However,
...at least _try_ to stay on topic, okay?)
This would be good advice. Unless you're wearing a flame-resistant suit with asbestos underwear. I find it amusing, however, I can see how others would find it nigh-infuriating. Just a little heads-up. See, even aliens have to stay on topic here. We don't discriminate!
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I remember toying with a similar ideas a few years back. It didn't go very far though, I'd be curious to see what kind script-fu could be used to implement this kind of thing.
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I have heard that a race known as Species 8472 makes use of such a technology. When they invade Cardassian space we will be ready.
OK, seriously, Damar, the more you post these roleplaying posts, the harder it is for everyone else to take you seriously when you actually have something on topic to say or when you need help with something.
You might be able to get away with posting one every once in a great while for humorous effect (especially in Gen Disc), as long as it doesn't interfere with serious discussions (meaning not like this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=80818.msg1607576#msg1607576)). But other than that, the less you do it, the better. This isn't a Trekkie community, after all, even if it has some Star Trek fans (including yours truly) and the occasional attempt at a Star Trek mod.
[/offtopic]
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Please refrain from backseat moderating, or piling on Damar.
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That aside, he's got a point. The roleplay was good on the start, but got annoying after a while.
However Damar's also got a point. I agree Species 8472 weapon is a good analogy of jr2's idea (not the best one though, as IIRC, they don't use a collimator ship, just the "satellites") and should be doable in FS. Just have "satellites" fire non-damaging beams at the collimator, then have the collimator fire an actual, damaging beam. Easily FREDable. Even if you don't have a collimator ship, you could just use an invisible object with a turret. Also not a difficult thing to make. Of course, it'd have to be scripted in FRED (this being a capship weapon, it shouldn't be a problem though, since complex capship battles simply have to be scripted).
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Please refrain from backseat moderating, or piling on Damar.
That means you too, Dragon.
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Yeah, this is really easy to do in FRED, though it could require some annoying brainless table work.
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Ehh... The_E, I think that everyone thought you were just posting your personal frustration, not as a moderator (perhaps because there was no official "warning" or anything). I know I did. So when you were posting about 'back-seat moderating', I was thinking... "wtf, dude, no one's doing that" until I went back and read the thread again and this time read your post as coming from a moderator.
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Sorry, I should have been more clear.
/me puts on Moderator hat
better now?
One thing to consider is that there has been quite a bit of discussion behind the scenes about tightening up moderating standards. As part of that, we (as moderators) are encouraged to be a bit stricter in the application of the rules.
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Idea: Post About Posting
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I think the idea as stated would certainly look really awesome. But as far as concentrating firepower onto a single target, isn't that what the TAG missiles are for?
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TAG missiles broadcast a signal. What you do with that signal is entirely up to you.
That lens idea would most likely have a longer range than each individual beam, or have a better penetration power than the sum of each beam. You can technobabble the reason you want to justify it. Doesn't have to be set in the FS universe, either.
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Sorry, I should have been more clear.
/me puts on Moderator hat
better now?
-snip-
:yes: Much. :nod:
Sometimes it's hard to tell, because, you know, mods/admins are people too. -GASP!! No! Really?? ;)
Idea: Post About Posting
:yes2: :yes:
I think the idea as stated would certainly look really awesome. But as far as concentrating firepower onto a single target, isn't that what the TAG missiles are for?
TAG missiles are simply to increase the range and decrease the lock time for beams to target an enemy. My idea was basically to get one super-beam onto a target (imagine what a regular fleet could do if the power of every beam was hosing down a Sath).
But TAG missiles could be implemented to help the MBC target the enemy ship, or perhaps a modified TAG missile could be used when you want the MBC targeted and fired upon by all available beam-freed ships in the area. IDK, thoughts?
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jr2 did you play Vassago's Dirge
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Not yet. I have a bad habit of picking up a new FS mod, starting it, running into problems, tinkering with it, running into more problems, and giving up. (Or, playing it until I reach a mission that is rather hard, playing it through 4-5 times, and giving up.)
I'll get around to it, I have a regular collection of FS mods on my hard disks.
Why? I don't mind spoilers.
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It has an excellent mission based on using TAG missiles to coordinate long range beam fire from a big array of Mjolnirs. I'm sure Axem would appreciate knowing that his creativity is getting appreciation.
Also, if you keep running into problems, you must not be playing very good mods
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It's been awhile since I seriously tried a mod with the intent of finishing it. Heresy, I know.
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That's okay, though you do run the risk of looking like a bit of a twit for posting ideas when other people have already invested the time and hard work required to make them work for you.
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VD's long range Mjolnir array isn't a collimator though.
You don't have a fleet of Fenrises shooting their dinky LTerSlashes at the thing to power up the beams! :P
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It is not a collimator. Didn't JAD 2.22 have something like that or wait am I insane
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I was reasonably confident that no one had this exact idea. Which still holds true, no? Coordinating long range Mjolnir strikes =/= collimator.
EDIT:
VD's long range Mjolnir array isn't a collimator though.
You don't have a fleet of Fenrises shooting their dinky LTerSlashes at the thing to power up the beams! :P
ninja'd
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I was reasonably confident that no one had this exact idea. Which still holds true, no? Coordinating long range Mjolnir strikes =/= collimator.
No, trust me, a zillion people have had this idea because it is a science fiction cliche since at least the 1970s, and super easy to do in FSO at that.
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Not yet. I have a bad habit of picking up a new FS mod, starting it, running into problems, tinkering with it, running into more problems, and giving up. (Or, playing it until I reach a mission that is rather hard, playing it through 4-5 times, and giving up.)
I'll get around to it, I have a regular collection of FS mods on my hard disks.
Why? I don't mind spoilers.
If you fail a mission 5 times can't you skip it?
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Heresy! Burn him!
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So basically, this would be a Death Star laser, but with a ship at the focal point? Sounds interesting.
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Ah ha, I knew we had this in FreeSpace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfQ2VSpVA_4)
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Looks totally hacked...
We could do much better.
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Err, I wasn't counting the Death Star. I meant, for basically the entire firepower of the fleet to be able to be utilized via another ship whose main purpose is that. So, it brings a whole new arena of tactics: enemies of course will prioritize the MBC ship, and you would then be prioritizing its defense... etc.
However, let's not forget, the MBC is only as powerful as the amount of ships firing into the collectors... so you can't just neglect defending the other ships against bombers, either, especially if there are a bunch of weaker beam-equipped ships running around that will drop quickly under a barrage of bombs.
The Death Star, conversely, is a single super-ship, that just so happens to converge all of it's "beam cannons" into one when firing... and seeing as the firing chambers are buried within the hull, and the collector/collimator point doesn't exist (maybe some sort of energy field??) you won't be attacking / defending those any time soon.
EDIT: And, upon watching that video, the effect, while cool, :yes: has a long way to go. :P
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The Death Star, conversely, is a single super-ship, that just so happens to converge all of it's "beam cannons" into one when firing... and seeing as the firing chambers are buried within the hull, and the collector/collimator point doesn't exist (maybe some sort of energy field??) you won't be attacking / defending those any time soon.
IIRC, the Death Star had a collimator at the focal point of the beams... It's movie-time operation doesn't agree with how it would actually work (like, the first beam would fire through the collimeter and the resulting beam would be the same size... but grows with more beams shot into it).
The MBC would be an interesting ship, no doubt, and I can foresee a big fleet battle of a GTVA fleet vs a Sathanas fleet. :yes:
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Wait, so canon Star Wars actually has a physical collimator on the Death Star?
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Wait, so canon Star Wars actually has a physical collimator on the Death Star?
Yes, but it's neither mentioned, nor physically seen. Since it's really really tiny compared to the Death Star.
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Source?
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The MBC would be an interesting ship, no doubt, and I can foresee a big fleet battle of a GTVA fleet vs a Sathanas fleet. :yes:
I'm trying to figure out what, besides "looks cool", you could really say was the purpose.
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Well, basically, to take the firepower of the entire fleet and put it on one target. You could throw in extended range (have the MBC's reactor basically put all its power to create an extended beam that serves only as a conduit for the other beams' power to the target). Or something. It's really just and idea; you'd have to flesh it out. I think everyone agrees it would be kind of cool.
It should have higher armor piercing value, too, as all the firepower is concentrated on one point, and, as good as any armor might be, repeated or intense damage to one point will usually overwhelm that point.
Here's an idea: load up your favorite capship slugfest mission. Now count the different anti-capitol beams and types available (roughly). Then figure out the DPS if they were all firing at one target at one time.
Actually, another cool idea... heh.. have some sort of assembly of capships around a docking ring. When in the ring, they fire their beams at the central part of the ring (ring is not hollow, there is a mechanism in the ring) and the ring then fires the combined energy. After several of these shots, as the ring is closing in on the target or bombers / fighters are getting close, the capships undock and scatter, creating separate individual fields of AAA/flak fire, and reducing the chance of being all destroyed one after the other.
Anyways, these are all just random ideas. If you like 'em, great. If you want to use them, swell. If you don't... erm... then you are in the wrong thread? Unless you just want to discuss potential lack of benefits or disadvantages. However, at this point, being as it's just a concept, that's hard to do because no one knows how this would actually be implemented tactically and what kind of techno babble would be invented to justify it.
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EDIT: And, upon watching that video, the effect, while cool, :yes: has a long way to go. :P
Wow, congrats on being a huge asshole. I'll pass on your dislike to Sara, I'm sure she'll appreciate it.
Good job coming up with a simple idea that's been around for decades and then tearing down everyone who's actually implemented anything like it. Please continue spitting rehashed ideas and then failing to ever appreciate anyone else's work.
Believe it or not, this is a community of modders. There's nothing more loathsome and parasitic than an 'idea guy' who contributes little and wants to do nothing except talk about himself.
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See that? That's exactly the kind of unpleasantness we don't need.
JR2 - What would you suggest to improve that implementation of the effect?
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Here, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't quite 'get' what you were seeing. You now have a test mission in which someone has implemented 90% of the exact system you're dreaming of. You can use it to tweak the technique, try to build a dynamic version, or run balance tests - but all the foundationals are right there for you to use: a group of ships firing their beams at a central ship which fires a larger beam.
This is all that will ever be required on the FRED level for your idea to work.
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seems like it would just be better to have all the ships just shoot at the target all at the same time. like how picard pewned the borg cube in first contact. but im all for the death star effect because it looks cool.
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Yes. Rule of cool > *
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Focusing multiple beams allows three things:
1. Coordinated strike against a distant target. Although some ships are perfectly capable of long-range strikes, other ships may have the range but not the targeting capabilities. The MBC allows a variety of ships with a variety of capabilities to perform the strike.
2. It may be possible that the ships don't have line of sight to the target (i.g. an asteroid field), but the MBC does. This allows for an ambush mission where the attacking ships hide behind asteroids while the MBC is only visible, hence surprising the targets.
3. As explained earlier, multiple beams vs. one big beam. The multiple beams would in theory cause more damage than the big beam, like a shotgun vs. a .50cal. However, as with the .50cal, the big beam can punch through the targets armor much more quickly and more forceful, opening up a soft spot for attack.
Source?
The Death Star's superlaser derived power directly from the hypermatter reactor. Its faceted amplification crystal combined the destructive power of eight separate tributary beams into one single blast with the intensity of a stellar core.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star
Although, that page is listed as needing citations... :nervous:
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EDIT: And, upon watching that video, the effect, while cool, :yes: has a long way to go. :P
Wow, congrats on being a huge asshole. I'll pass on your dislike to Sara, I'm sure she'll appreciate it.
:blah:
Here's one (http://youtu.be/l3FHN_3INDY) with a more polished effect.
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@Batts: I should have been more specific. I wan't talking about the effect itself, rather, how the effect compared to SW canon. To give you a quick mental snapshot of what I mean: let's say someone is porting the FS2 campaign and assets to a new game engine. Say, Starshatter. Now let's say you see a YouTube video of the Collossus firing its main beams at an NTF ship, blowing it apart. Except, the beam has the size of a AAAf beam, and doesn't have quite the same effect as the FS beam cannons do, it doesn't pulse, rather, it's like a straight pencil of light.
Now you see? Whilst 90% of the effect is there, (and, I forgot to add, 90% of the work has, indeed, been done) the effect still has "a long way to go" before ringing true to FS2 canon. And I should also mention, that I was unaware that this was the effort of a single member of the community. That she managed to create this effect entirely on her own is impressive. EDIT: and I just realized, you seem to have missed the post before mine:
Looks totally hacked...
We could do much better.
Way to single me out. :nervous: You know neither of us meant this as being derisive of another modder's work in any way. I mean, come on. :P
@Sara: keep it up, you're within sight of the finish line. :yes:
@BW:
The beams leading to the center need to be thicker
The interpolation (is that the right word) needs tweaking (the interruptions in the small beams that flow towards the focal point)
The small beams need to be more evenly spaced.
The small beams need to fire one at a time.
The small beams need to all be coming from he outer ring of the firing 'bowl', some are currently firing from space.
There needs to be only 8 of them IIRC.
The glow in the middle needs to start when the first beam reaches the focal point, not before.
If any of the above nitpicks are not correct, please, feel free to correct me.
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Excuse me, but this will bother me. Do you mean something like this?
(http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/b/bd/Ships_fr.png)
Because if so, I believe it has already been done...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3FHN_3INDY&feature=channel&list=UL
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Excuse me, but this will bother me. Did you actually read the thread? :p
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Excuse me, but this will bother me. Did you actually read the thread? :p
Yes and no, I've skimmed through it cause I was doing other things at the time.
I will remove my previous post if it is a bother though.
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I uh... posted exactly that video two posts above yours. :p
nitpicks
While you've answered Black Wolf's question, I don't think these are relevant here. You said yourself that you were not looking to the Death Star as a model. The only reason that video clip was posted was to demonstrate the mechanics of the effect in action. The end visual effect will be different, and probably wouldn't incorporate any of the improvements from those nitpicks.
One that you missed is that Firing from space? No... how-- the beams need to hit the focal point instead of streaming off into space. That actually will be relevant, because your focal ship is mobile, probably smallish, and maybe fast. So if it escapes the tributary beam's before firing, it would look silly.
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One that you missed is that Firing from space? No... how-- the beams need to hit the focal point instead of streaming off into space. That actually will be relevant, because your focal ship is mobile, probably smallish, and maybe fast. So if it escapes the tributary beam's before firing, it would look silly.
I was referring to the smaller beams that are feeding the main beam. If you look closely, some of them originate not from the rim of the firing ring, but what appears to be thin air space. :wtf:
EDIT: As for the effect being able to be used with the MBC idea; not sure if it would work as I'm not sure if the mechanics are similar enough to adapt (ship firing its own weapons to create bigger weapon vs ship acting as a collecting point for the DPS of all beam fired at it and redirecting them, possibly with extra range and maybe extra DPS, to a single target).
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Oh, I see what's going on I think. There are only 8 smaller beams. It looks like +Range was used to make them end in the middle, but either it was set too high or it only made them fade out instead of disappearing instantly.
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Oh I see. So they are extending too far, and the angle makes it look 'extra' beams coming from the middle of nowhere?