Hard Light Productions Forums

General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Legate Damar on June 15, 2012, 10:48:36 am

Title: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Legate Damar on June 15, 2012, 10:48:36 am
You have two fleets of ships, like maybe a dozen capships in total on both sides, and they all execute multiple tactical jumps to try to outmaneuver each other, with every ship jumping at least six times or so.

Just wondering if any missions like this exist
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: JCDNWarrior on June 15, 2012, 10:56:12 am
Not that I'm aware of but it could be interesting - However, as a fighter or bomber, such maneuvers would involve continually dodging multiple huge ships if it's anywhere near the field of engagement of the player. I'd also say that six jumps is a little too much for such ships, I'd wager they could make three jumps if they overstress their reactors. Nonetheless if executed well it could certainly be a very interesting mission.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Legate Damar on June 15, 2012, 11:05:41 am
Well I have a mission sort of like this planned but I was just wondering if anyone had done something similar.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: IronBeer on June 15, 2012, 11:13:15 am
Tactical microjumps don't show up very often. The first example I can come up with off the top of my head is Nemesis from Inferno.

There are plenty of cases of warships "landing" close to a target, but that's often less on the "intentional" side.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: headdie on June 15, 2012, 11:23:22 am
the first instance of I can think of something in this vein would be the mission in FS:ST when you are trying to recover the escape pods and you get jumped by the Loki's, which withdraw and then return, but it is not something commonly seen and I dont recall multiple capships with multiple jumps involved, probably due to the complexity of the idea to implement
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: -Norbert- on June 15, 2012, 11:42:00 am
The only instance of a capship making a microjump within the mission area I can remember ended up with the ship blowing up.
I can't remember the name of the campign (or much of anything else, including wether I liked it back in the days - it certainly was before the SCP came along), but it had a Colossus and a few accompanying ships stranded in Shivan space and the Colly's hanger was modifyed to carry two Aeolus instead of strikecraft.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Polpolion on June 15, 2012, 11:50:01 am
Vassago's Dirge has some cool jumps in it. Check out the mission "Arpeggio". It's no massive battle, but it pretty much is just a bunch of ships jumping around trying to either kill or not get killed.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: karajorma on June 15, 2012, 08:09:17 pm
The only instance of a capship making a microjump within the mission area I can remember ended up with the ship blowing up.
I can't remember the name of the campign (or much of anything else, including wether I liked it back in the days - it certainly was before the SCP came along), but it had a Colossus and a few accompanying ships stranded in Shivan space and the Colly's hanger was modifyed to carry two Aeolus instead of strikecraft.

I learned how to make a ship do a microjump by taking apart Boomerang back in around 2001. That's probably what you are thinking about.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: el_magnifico on June 15, 2012, 10:04:22 pm
1) Capships take time to recharge their subspace drives (as was mentioned before). 6 times on the same mission would considerably extend the time said mission lasts.

2) GTVA jump drives are supposed to lack in precision. Such maneuvers would be hard and risky to pull off once, let alone 6 times.

3) May be tricky to implement (as was mentioned before).

4) Sounds like it will probably result in a BoE'd mission.

5) Defies Shivan, GTA, PVN, GTVA and NTF tactical doctrine as evidenced by the fact that, in decades of almost constant war, it was never done before. Not even once. Not even against the Sathanas (and the Phoenicia really could have used it.)

But hey! Your mission, your rules. :yes:
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 15, 2012, 10:10:14 pm
1) Capships take time to recharge their subspace drives (as was mentioned before). 6 times on the same mission would considerably extend the time said mission lasts.

2) GTVA jump drives are supposed to lack in precision. Such maneuvers would be hard and risky to pull off once, let alone 6 times.

5) Defies Shivan, GTA, PVN, GTVA and NTF tactical doctrine as evidenced by the fact that, in decades of almost constant war, it was never done before. Not even once. Not even against the Sathanas (and the Phoenicia really could have used it.)

These three things are based on fan inference rather than solid evidence, and as such should be considered suggestions at most. Even the recharge thing is mainly us trying to explain behavior in the missions.

The second is particularly weak, and I don't think there's any real evidence at all for it, it's just become an accepted canard.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Legate Damar on June 15, 2012, 10:21:49 pm
The capabilities of the ships in the mission will make sense, don't worry. I just wanted to see if anything like this had been attempted before.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: el_magnifico on June 15, 2012, 10:24:14 pm
1) Capships take time to recharge their subspace drives (as was mentioned before). 6 times on the same mission would considerably extend the time said mission lasts.

2) GTVA jump drives are supposed to lack in precision. Such maneuvers would be hard and risky to pull off once, let alone 6 times.

5) Defies Shivan, GTA, PVN, GTVA and NTF tactical doctrine as evidenced by the fact that, in decades of almost constant war, it was never done before. Not even once. Not even against the Sathanas (and the Phoenicia really could have used it.)

These three things are based on fan inference rather than solid evidence, and as such should be considered suggestions at most. Even the recharge thing is mainly us trying to explain behavior in the missions.

The second is particularly weak, and I don't think there's any real evidence at all for it, it's just become an accepted canard.

1) Tenderizer (amongst others, but it's the example that first comes to my mind. It's established canon by now).
2 and 5) Yes, these are weaker. And yet I have to cite: The Great Hunt. Bearbaiting. Or that mission where the Psamtik was destroyed. Even High Noon (the Sathanas still had the rear beam, and superior subspace drives. So why didn't it repositioned itself?).
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Beskargam on June 15, 2012, 10:31:13 pm
I point out that it might not matter? It is his mod.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: el_magnifico on June 15, 2012, 10:37:11 pm
Nope, you're right. Tenderizer doesn't say a thing about drive recharging, but rather:

Quote
The Galatea will jump into Antares, reset its coordinates, then jump to Beta Aquilae.

Strange. I usually have such a strong and reliable memory, even for trivial things. :wtf:

Also, what Beskargam said.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 15, 2012, 10:38:48 pm
1) Tenderizer (amongst others, but it's the example that first comes to my mind. It's established canon by now).
2 and 5) Yes, these are weaker. And yet I have to cite: The Great Hunt. Bearbaiting. Or that mission where the Psamtik was destroyed. Even High Noon (the Sathanas still had the rear beam, and superior subspace drives. So why didn't it repositioned itself?).

King's Gambit. An Orion-class destroyer was able to jump again with remarkable speed. In fact, under the hood in FRED and probably if you were a particularly diligent pilot in the game, you'd realize that the restriction against NTF ships jumping out has to do with distance from the node, not drive recharge.

Great Hunt features a sensor-damping nebula that must be searched, the positions of enemy units are not known, and any number of reasons could be constructed why it would be best done the way it is. Bearbaiting could be down to a host of tactical factors and assumes the GTVA knew things about the Sathanas they might not. The Psamtik's destruction is actually an argument against this as it is stated to have misjumped when its jump is inaccurate. And finally, you're A: assuming the Sathanas has superior drives, which is never stated, and B: assuming things about the way the Shivans think which are never stated.

It's simply an attempt to explain mission behavior by us.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: el_magnifico on June 15, 2012, 10:59:32 pm
King's Gambit. An Orion-class destroyer was able to jump again with remarkable speed. In fact, under the hood in FRED and probably if you were a particularly diligent pilot in the game, you'd realize that the restriction against NTF ships jumping out has to do with distance from the node, not drive recharge.
Granted.

Quote
Great Hunt features a sensor-damping nebula that must be searched, the positions of enemy units are not known, and any number of reasons could be constructed why it would be best done the way it is.
FS1's The Great Hunt. The Galatea jumped too far away from the Lucifer (lack of precision), and didn't repositioned itself to catch up (drive recharging, lack of precision).

Quote
Bearbaiting could be down to a host of tactical factors and assumes the GTVA knew things about the Sathanas they might not.
Fair enough.

Quote
The Psamtik's destruction is actually an argument against this as it is stated to have misjumped when its jump is inaccurate.
Not sure. Granted.

Quote
And finally, you're A: assuming the Sathanas has superior drives, which is never stated
It's stated by Petrarch that the Shivan's possess "advanced subspace technologies" and can use nodes too unstable for the GTVA. Whether the Sathanas uses regular Shivan drives is unknown, but there's no reason to assume otherwise.

Quote
and B: assuming things about the way the Shivans think which are never stated.
Well, granted again.

Overall, and considering my memory has betrayed me once already, it seems that you're right. I still think those are the most plausible explanations, and the most widespread ones. But I concede, judging by the current evidence, that it's probably not canon, and that I was wrong.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: mjn.mixael on June 15, 2012, 11:13:57 pm
Well... regardless of whether or not that many quick, successive jumps is canon or not (may not even matter for a non FS mod).. I'm not really convinced that a mission designed with so many capships warping around would be anything more than severely annoying.

On paper (or in text on a forum), it seems like the kind of mission gimmick that I would even question some of the HLP FREDing greats on if they said they were going to incorporate it seriously. I just sounds too much like BoE justification.. and it would require some pretty intricate FREDing to pull off without ship collisions and insta-deaths.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Mongoose on June 15, 2012, 11:53:02 pm
That being said, it'd be perfect for a gag campaign mission.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: aeon48m on June 16, 2012, 12:58:55 am
That being said, it'd be perfect for a gag campaign mission.
You just gave me a very good idea...
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Legate Damar on June 16, 2012, 01:04:39 am
Well a gag version would be like one ship jumps in behind another, the first one jumps and appears behind the second, the second then jumps behind the first again, etc. That's not what I'm planning to do.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: SpardaSon21 on June 16, 2012, 12:15:55 pm
A gag campaign could always do subspace musical chairs.  Or even worse, subspace chess.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: headdie on June 16, 2012, 12:45:51 pm
A gag campaign could always do subspace musical chairs.  Or even worse, subspace chess.

musical subspace chess????
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: SpardaSon21 on June 16, 2012, 01:09:58 pm
A gag campaign could always do subspace musical chairs.  Or even worse, subspace chess.

musical subspace chess????
Axem, why aren't you FREDding this already?  Admiral Cauldron could totally play musical subspace chess with Admiral Iron in the next JAD. :D
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: -Norbert- on June 16, 2012, 01:21:55 pm
Quote
Great Hunt features a sensor-damping nebula that must be searched, the positions of enemy units are not known, and any number of reasons could be constructed why it would be best done the way it is.
FS1's The Great Hunt. The Galatea jumped too far away from the Lucifer (lack of precision), and didn't repositioned itself to catch up (drive recharging, lack of precision).
My impression of that mission was that the Bastion didn't misjump, but underestimated the Lucifer.
They thought they'd end up very close to the Lucy, but the Shivan ship was far closer to the node than the GTA would have thought possible.

While  that mission does give credence to the GTA not having the ability to do microjumps in the FS1 era, that doesn't even mean for sure that they couldn't have done it in the FS2 era, much less set any boundaries for a mod.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: headdie on June 16, 2012, 01:48:57 pm
Quote
Great Hunt features a sensor-damping nebula that must be searched, the positions of enemy units are not known, and any number of reasons could be constructed why it would be best done the way it is.
FS1's The Great Hunt. The Galatea jumped too far away from the Lucifer (lack of precision), and didn't repositioned itself to catch up (drive recharging, lack of precision).
My impression of that mission was that the Bastion didn't misjump, but underestimated the Lucifer.
They thought they'd end up very close to the Lucy, but the Shivan ship was far closer to the node than the GTA would have thought possible.

While  that mission does give credence to the GTA not having the ability to do microjumps in the FS1 era, that doesn't even mean for sure that they couldn't have done it in the FS2 era, much less set any boundaries for a mod.

all it really says is that the GTA cant make jumps in quick succession rather than comment on the ability to perform micro jumps
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: el_magnifico on June 16, 2012, 11:21:00 pm
That's not what I'm planning to do.
Of course not! So you must be planning...

Spoiler:
A FLEET-WIDE PICARD MANEUVER!!!
Sorry, couldn't resist. :lol:

Say, What about beam-freeing? I recall the Psamtik had to "power up photon beam cannons" and "commence plasma core insertion", or something along those lines, when she destroyed the Belisarius. That was just after coming out of subspace. IF, and only IF, the beams have to be turned off before a jump, and then on again, that could explain why microjumps are so rare. But maybe it's just my memory playing tricks again. Or perhaps that was just Kafhre's way of asking for a hamburger and fries in proper etiquette, considering his position relative to the emperor and the color of their underwear that day. :p


Woohoo! First post I redact without ANY help from Google translate and Merriam-Webster. I hope it's readable. :nervous:
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Cyborg17 on June 16, 2012, 11:58:13 pm
That's not what I'm planning to do.
Of course not! So you must be planning...

Spoiler:
A FLEET-WIDE PICARD MANEUVER!!!
Sorry, couldn't resist. :lol:

Say, What about beam-freeing? I recall the Psamtik had to "power up photon beam cannons" and "commence plasma core insertion", or something along those lines, when she destroyed the Belisarius. That was just after coming out of subspace. IF, and only IF, the beams have to be turned off before a jump, and then on again, that could explain why microjumps are so rare. But maybe it's just my memory playing tricks again. Or perhaps that was just Kafhre's way of asking for a hamburger and fries in proper etiquette, considering his position relative to the emperor and the color of their underwear that day. :p


Woohoo! First post I redact without ANY help from Google translate and Merriam-Webster. I hope it's readable. :nervous:

It was perfectly coherent except for "First post I redact".
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Klaustrophobia on June 17, 2012, 01:37:37 am
A gag campaign could always do subspace musical chairs.  Or even worse, subspace chess.

musical subspace chess????
Axem, why aren't you FREDding this already?  Admiral Cauldron could totally play musical subspace chess with Admiral Iron in the next JAD. :D

i now have a mental image of a bunch of cap ships arranged in a grid facing the player about 20 km or so away, micro-jumping to move as chess pieces.  the colossus should be the queen and do the baseball bat thing when it captures an opposing piece.  orions for the rooks, hecates for the bishops, etc.  i'm thinking fenris for the pawns. 
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: -Norbert- on June 17, 2012, 03:48:44 am

Say, What about beam-freeing? I recall the Psamtik had to "power up photon beam cannons" and "commence plasma core insertion", or something along those lines, when she destroyed the Belisarius. That was just after coming out of subspace. IF, and only IF, the beams have to be turned off before a jump, and then on again, that could explain why microjumps are so rare. But maybe it's just my memory playing tricks again.
Your memory is right, but on the other hand the sequence to power up the beams takes just as long as the speech of the Psamtiks CO need to finish, which is something around 5 seconds and would most likely have been shorter if the good admiral had just said "destroy them". He probably liked theatric speeches :lol:
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Alex Heartnet on June 17, 2012, 04:01:40 am
Say, What about beam-freeing? I recall the Psamtik had to "power up photon beam cannons" and "commence plasma core insertion", or something along those lines, when she destroyed the Belisarius. That was just after coming out of subspace. IF, and only IF, the beams have to be turned off before a jump, and then on again, that could explain why microjumps are so rare. But maybe it's just my memory playing tricks again.

Or the beams were offline because they were down for maintenance.  Upon seeing combat, his engineers stopped repairing the existing plasma core, and just installed a spare instead.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Dragon on June 17, 2012, 04:56:24 am
That, or it just has to be cycled in and out after each firing cycle. There are many interpretations.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 17, 2012, 05:19:11 am
i now have a mental image of a bunch of cap ships arranged in a grid facing the player about 20 km or so away, micro-jumping to move as chess pieces.  the colossus should be the queen and do the baseball bat thing when it captures an opposing piece.  orions for the rooks, hecates for the bishops, etc.  i'm thinking fenris for the pawns.

The fact no one is already FREDding this disappoints me.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: -Norbert- on June 17, 2012, 06:53:07 am
Say, What about beam-freeing? I recall the Psamtik had to "power up photon beam cannons" and "commence plasma core insertion", or something along those lines, when she destroyed the Belisarius. That was just after coming out of subspace. IF, and only IF, the beams have to be turned off before a jump, and then on again, that could explain why microjumps are so rare. But maybe it's just my memory playing tricks again.

Or the beams were offline because they were down for maintenance.  Upon seeing combat, his engineers stopped repairing the existing plasma core, and just installed a spare instead.
The Psamtik was going in to save a convoy from hostiles. Unless something broke down right before or during the jump, who in his right mind would choose that particular moment for weapons maintanance?
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: headdie on June 17, 2012, 07:04:58 am
Say, What about beam-freeing? I recall the Psamtik had to "power up photon beam cannons" and "commence plasma core insertion", or something along those lines, when she destroyed the Belisarius. That was just after coming out of subspace. IF, and only IF, the beams have to be turned off before a jump, and then on again, that could explain why microjumps are so rare. But maybe it's just my memory playing tricks again.

Or the beams were offline because they were down for maintenance.  Upon seeing combat, his engineers stopped repairing the existing plasma core, and just installed a spare instead.
The Psamtik was going in to save a convoy from hostiles. Unless something broke down right before or during the jump, who in his right mind would choose that particular moment for weapons maintanance?

some times you don't get much choice and as the destroyer was moving in to suppress fighters with a low chance of intervention from hostile warships, it was probably a good time to get some field maintenance done.  (the belisarius dont count because it had only just entered the system and wasn't part of the tactical or strategic situation until that point)
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Kie99 on June 17, 2012, 09:17:36 am
Even if it were possible, tactically it's suicide.  It takes time to recharge your jump drive, if you jump out first to try and get the drop on the enemy, he will do the exact same thing as soon as he sees where you're emerging from and will be able to position himself to get an advantage on you.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: el_magnifico on June 17, 2012, 11:32:53 am
It takes time to recharge your jump drive
Except that, as we've already established, there's nothing in canon to confirm that.


It was perfectly coherent except for "First post I redact".
Well, then it was quite good for the first try. :p

He probably liked theatric speeches :lol:
Cheesy, poorly-delivered and grossly-overacted theatric speeches, if you ask me. In my mind the whole scene sounded like...

Khafre: My brothers! Brethren of Vasuda! The time has come for us to power up our photon beam cannons...
Vasudan bridge officer #1: Beg your pardon, sir?
Vasudan bridge officer #2: Just turn on the damned switch!
Khafre: ...for we shall commence plasma core insertion now, and bathe in the glory of our victory...
Vasudan bridge officer #1: What switch? I'm confused!
Belisarius: Kill us already! Before he delivers another line.
Vasudan bridge officer #2: Just fire the beams!
Khafre: ...and in following the footsteps of our ancestors, we fire our beams and cast a blessing upon all Vasudankind...
(Belisarius self-destructs.)
Alpha 2: That's it! I'm defecting for the NTF.
(Alpha 2 jumps out.)
Alpha 1: Command, with all due respect, may I recommend reclassifying vasudan theatre as torture under BETAC?
Allied Command: I'll... see what I can do, pilot.
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Legate Damar on June 17, 2012, 12:11:00 pm
Bonus points for anyone who makes the chess game and programs a computer chess engine using FRED/Scripting that can actually play well
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Vip on June 17, 2012, 12:21:25 pm
One word:

MULTIPLAYER
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Kie99 on June 18, 2012, 07:35:22 am
It takes time to recharge your jump drive
Except that, as we've already established, there's nothing in canon to confirm that.

Maybe not outright confirm it, but it's pretty strongly implied in The King's Gambit

From the briefing
"The NTF Fleet will enter through the Capello jump node.  Each warship will then jump to a rallying point within the Gamma Draconis system.  In the interval between jumps they will re-energise their subspace drives.  Your role will be to neutralize the warships with your Cyclops Torpedos"

Around 3:36 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UYYhKI11cA
Title: Re: Has anyone ever made a mission like this?
Post by: Nohiki on June 18, 2012, 11:18:19 pm
On another note, 10 capships on each side sounds mighty BoE. The only thing where a mission like this seems actually enjoyable is windmills.