Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Fineus on June 09, 2002, 01:32:19 pm
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Birthdays are coming closer, money is beginning to be less of a problem. My GF2 can't run GTA3 as fast without slow down and I want something cutting edge once again.
So - what to go for? The good old GeForce4 Ti4600?
It's got to be a gaming card, able to chuck things around quickly and effectively - future proof for at least the next 3 years is a bonus.
And I don't want this degrading into an ATI versus nVidia or an "nVidia cards suck" thread. If your going to debate on which card is the better you must back yourself up with facts that aid me with my choice, or else the point of the thread is lost.
With that in mind - whats the answer to my problem? :)
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I'd go with the best gf4 I could afford, but I'm not upgrading now.
Personally I'll hold out to dec/jan. hopefully Nvidia and ATI will come out with something new by then. Also Matrox's G1000(?) and 3DLabs/Creative P10(?) could be interesting (should be out this x-mas apperently). Of course how these hold up for gaming's anyones guess.
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3Dlabs will be releasing the "pro" version of the P10 VPU by the beginning of August I'd reckon.
This card will probably be the Oxygen 2 7200 or something hard to remember like that.
Matrox's "Parhelia 512" will be out...no idea.
Both will probably offer similar levels of performance and feature sets.
These cards will probably not be hugely expensive (well..the 3dlabs one will but then again it will probably provide way better image quality than the creative/desktop geared one)
I wouldn't go for a Geforce-powered board. Most of those non-programmable boards will face block obsolescence by the time Microsoft releases DX9 and the longhorn OS.
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Radeons arent half bad.. better than the GF line imho..
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Originally posted by Thorn
Radeons arent half bad.. better than the GF line imho..
Really? I thought it was generally accepted that GF4 cards were the business as far as gaming goes. I was considering getting a GF4mx card.
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I've used em both...
I like the Radeon better... image just seems crisper to me....
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
Really? I thought it was generally accepted that GF4 cards were the business as far as gaming goes. I was considering getting a GF4mx card.
As you probably know, the mx is basically an updated GF2. Unless you have cash flow probs, go for a ti.
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
Really? I thought it was generally accepted that GF4 cards were the business as far as gaming goes. I was considering getting a GF4mx card.
I just got a GF4mx 420 PCI. Would have gotten a 460 except my AGP is down on the Mobo and I don't have a AGP slot.
On the whole a good card, better that my old Voodoo3 2000.
The whole GF4mx line has nothing to do with the GF4ti line other than name. Essentially the GF4mx is a suped up GF2mx with an integrated FSAA engine.:( So if you want TOL performance go with a GF4ti
For the full skinny on performance go here (http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q2/020418/index.html) and here (http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q1/020206/index.html) .
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Hmmm, this actually does sound familiar, a friend told me that the GF4mx was little more than an overclocked GF2.
A GF3ti sounds like my cup of tea then :)
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A 16MB TNT2 64 :lowers head in shame:
And I probably won't get a better one until I graduate from HS in ~3 years and get my own comp (Graduation present!)
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I have a standard Geforce3 card so I am probably going to just bypass the GF4 generation and wait for the next line. However, if the two upcoming Unreal games don't run too well, I will move to a 4600. I have been hearing good things about the 4200 version from a price/performance point of view - they say it is almost as fast as the two higher clocked versions but price comparatively to the much inferior MX versions. (not sure if it has been released yet or not, though)
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I'm very happy with my radeon, and it's only a 32mb ( needed the all in wonder version ), so if you get a 64mb, would be a great deal I think. shouldn't be too expensive now, which is quite a good point.
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Hey this is evil. You stickify every single admin topic. That's not fair you know! :snipe: :headz:
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A perk of being the admin is you can bring topics to peoples attention more easily by sticking them for a faster answer. That's something I don't need to apologise for :)
Anyways, thanks to everyone for the input so far... I'm not torn between a few things:
1 - Waiting for the generation after the GF4 line to fully develop itself. However this will take time... up to half a year, which is a major con from my point of view.
2 - Getting a Voodoo4 or 5 for 3DFX games, I've not played Wing Commander Prophecy for some time because of this - it's just a case of finding the card. However this has little to do with the topic of the best new graphics cards...
3 - Buy a Radeon, although I'm aprehensive of this. Whilst I value looks - if it comes at the cost of a large amount of performance alongside the latest GF4 line then it's a big turn off. The report in PC Zones hardware section has the nVidias latest and greatest labelled as the ultimate for speed and looks. Although I have heard several reports that the GF line in general sacrifices looks over speed. But if that speed is that much more - I'm willing to make that call. Theres no point playing a game that looks incredible if it runs at 10FPS.
4 - Finally, buy a GF4 card. I've already decided I wouldn't touch the MX line at all - if I'm going to upgrade a card I might as well spend the money and make it a really good upgrade. However if the line after[/] GF4 is that much better then I could consider waiting untill it's released. But it'd have to be a really worth-while wait... including DX9 compatable and so on...
Oh and I forgot to mention, dual monitor (well, one monitor and one TV) support is a real bonus.
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Intel and Nvidia both own shares in Dennis publishing, PCZ's parent company.
Don't trust a word of their reviews, go somewhere more reputable like ars technica or aces' hardware.
(NOT THG or Anandtech..both of them have said some very screwy things)
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Well, as I said, even with monster games resources-wise, my radeon on an athlon 900mhz always did fine.
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OK then Thunder. If you say so, I can just :bump: the topic the whole time untill I get attention that it deserves.
Cool! Well I am no admin, but I still can do something to get attention for my topics. :D :p
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Wait for teh nv30 if you can. Its gonna be HELLA fast, and for you 3dfx fanatics...IT HAS GLIDE SUPPORT! :D They didn't hire all of those ex-3dfx engineers to sit on their hands ya know.
I'd post full specs for the nv30 (Geforce 5), but the server is on has been down since Thursday of last week.
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Originally posted by wEvil
Intel and Nvidia both own shares in Dennis publishing, PCZ's parent company.
Hmmm...interesting...
Thanks, wEvil. Fortunately I can't be bothered to pay for PCZ or PCG, and nick all my information from the internet. Thanks for the links...though I have a 1.4Ghz Athlon and 384MB RAM, I think the 3D card is letting it down on some games - GTA 3 coming to mind.
It's a 64MB Geforce2 MX, IIRC. :blah:
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Originally posted by MD-2389
Wait for teh nv30 if you can. Its gonna be HELLA fast, and for you 3dfx fanatics...IT HAS GLIDE SUPPORT! :D They didn't hire all of those ex-3dfx engineers to sit on their hands ya know.
I'd post full specs for the nv30 (Geforce 5), but the server is on has been down since Thursday of last week.
Wow, you actually did something useful for once! :)
This is certainly interesting/great news. It would negate the need for a seperate Voodoo5 card... if only I could get one with dual monitor support - it certanly sounds like a hefty beast... any details you can get together would be great!
And Razor, bumping to much leads to topic closure. Don't do it :)
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Wait for teh nv30 if you can. Its gonna be HELLA fast, and for you 3dfx fanatics...IT HAS GLIDE SUPPORT! They didn't hire all of those ex-3dfx engineers to sit on their hands ya know.
That certainly sounds appealing, especially to "old game" fanatics like myself. :D
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I am looking for a profesional rendering card, a wildcat or something. I am more in rendering/animating then gaming.
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NV30...pah, boo sux.
P10....*waves a flag*
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*Waves back*
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I've recently been doing some research on this subject, and have just bought a GF4 Ti4200. Here's why.
The GF4 Ti line blows every previous graphics card out of the water. This is fact. Even the Ti4200 performs at least as well as the better GF3s, IIRC.
The Ti4200 costs way less than a Ti4600. In addition, benchmarks have shown that it has impressive performance. When you pay for a Ti4600 or even a Ti4400, you're paying a lot to have cutting-edge performance now. In the long run, though, the Ti4200 will probably hold up just as well, as the actual performance difference between the cards is not huge. It's the same reason you don't buy the absolute fastest processor out; you're paying a lot to get the fastest processor when the next-fastest processor probably costs half as much and is nearly as good.
Finally, the Ti4200 has been shown to overclock very well even if the default cooling is not replaced.
That's why I chose the Ti4200. You may want to wait for the Parhelia-512, though; that card is shaping up (http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/parheliapreview/default.asp) to be incredible. It will be quite a bit of money (~$500US), but if you're willing to fork over that much, it will serve you very well.
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I guess it has been released, then. Like I said earlier, the 4200 is one of the best deals out there today. ;)
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Originally posted by NotDefault
You may want to wait for the Parhelia-512, though; that card is shaping up (http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/parheliapreview/default.asp) to be incredible. It will be quite a bit of money (~$500US), but if you're willing to fork over that much, it will serve you very well.
The 3Dlabs VPU is actually a better proposition, cuz like all other 3Dlabs chips it can run parallel with other P10's on the same board.....and is ready NOW :)
Firing squad is not a hardware resource i'd trust to sit the right way round on a toilet seat.
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Originally posted by wEvil
Firing squad is not a hardware resource i'd trust to sit the right way round on a toilet seat.
Who do you trust, then?
I've been looking for a site that actually has a substantial amount of reviews, but I haven't found one.
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Originally posted by CP5670
I guess it has been released, then. Like I said earlier, the 4200 is one of the best deals out there today. ;)
Heh, I missed your post somehow, sorry. :)
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Originally posted by Thunder
2 - Getting a Voodoo4 or 5 for 3DFX games, I've not played Wing Commander Prophecy for some time because of this - it's just a case of finding the card. However this has little to do with the topic of the best new graphics cards...
The Voodoo cards would still have a fighting chance if the newer games would cooperate with it.
Just because 3Dfx is out of buisness doesn't mean that newer games can be compatible with it untill another 'cutting edge' card comes out, right? :confused:
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Thats just it - I'm all for owning a 3DFX card of some type just so I can play 3DFX games. But if the nv30 range will incorporate 3DFX Glide then there isn't much point on me shelling out for a V5!
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Originally posted by NotDefault
Who do you trust, then?
I've been looking for a site that actually has a substantial amount of reviews, but I haven't found one.
Aces Hardware
Ars Technica
Permedia General Resource (up until it shut down, that is)
Storagereview.com
Theinquirer.org
Theregister.co.uk
Those are the only sites with a consistent record of non-biased reviews. EVERY other hardware site i'm aware of has turned up dodgy conclusions and test data one way or another.
If you want my credentials i've been a professional hardware engineer for almost 6 years.
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If i only had enough money to buy them all and try them out on by one. *Going to rob bank*
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Hope I didn't make it to the party too late :)
I'll try to help solve Thunder's dilemma as posted earlier
1) First up, we have specs for the NV30 and NV35 video cards, taken from here (http://forums.theddrzone.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=291), which was taken from another source:
NV30 :
0.13 micron process
400MHz GPU
512-bit chip structure
AGP 8X
8 rendering pipelines
Supports 128-256MB of DDR SDRAM
900MHz DDR SDRAM
200 million polygons per second
Lightspeed Memory Architecture III
Supports DirectX 9 and OpenGL 1.3
In 3rd or 4th Quarter 2002
NV35 :
0.13 micron process
500MHz GPU
512-bit chip structure
AGP 8X
8 rendering pipelines
Supports 128-256MB of DDR SDRAM
1000-1200MHz DDR or QDR
400Mhz RAMDAC
Lightspeed Memory Architecture III
Supports DirectX 9.1 and OpenGL 2.0
In H1 2003
Sources are saying that the NV30 is only a couple of months off, though it probably won't be available for a few months afterwards. Most likely it would be in competition with the upcoming ATI R300, 3DLabs' P10 and the Matrox Parhelia. However, there is a difference between theory and practice, and the specs don't always tell the full story. If you need a video card now go and get one now. Otherwise you'll constantly be waiting for the Next Big Thing.
2) If you want to play Glide games on your computer then I would suggest tracking down one or two Voodoo2's. I currently run 2x12MB V2's alongside my GeForce3 for games using Glide, drivers are still readily obtainable from "underground" sources, if you upgrade your vid card in future you can still use Glide if you want to. Of course, they'll eat up PCI slots so if you can't afford to lose any then this wouldn't be a good solution.
3) It is true that the GeForce4 Ti series represent the most powerful gaming cards to date. The Radeon 8500 provides good competition in most areas, and even excells in some. However as most ATI users can attest their driver support sucks. While this is slowly being remedied over time, their lack of support in this manner remains a disadvantage. The GF4 line doesn't sacrifice looks for speed as much as other cards (e.g. GF2 vs Voodoo5), though if you've had the luxury of using a Matrox card for 2D work then you're going to be disappointed.
4) If you are going to go for a GF4 then I suggest starting to look at the Ti4200's. Good idea avoiding the GF4 MX, as has been pointed out already it's little more than a GF2 with support for a few advanced features. If you can afford it, move up to a Ti4400, if you can still afford it, move up to a Ti4600. Even with a Ti4200 you'll still be futureproof for some time, especially if you do end up overclocking the card (nowadays a very easy process). Beware of cheaper brands - Apollo and Powercolour for example make use of cheaper components and result in a noticeable drop in quality compared to brands such as Gainward, X-micro and Leadtek.
Those are my thoughts to play around with. Good luck with your hunting.
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and a drop in an Nvidia cards' image quality really would make everything look totally yucky!
:D
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I've been running my computer with a Voodoo 3 2000 AGP for ages. Currently, I'm running an AMD Athlon 1.4 Ghz with it. Now, I don't know if I've hit a good combination or what, but it runs any game or program (Hell, even Lightwave, and all the detailed flight sims I have) I throw at it with all options maxed out, perfectly. I'm only going to consider upgrading when it stops running things I throw at it :p
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Originally posted by wEvil
Aces Hardware
Ars Technica
Permedia General Resource (up until it shut down, that is)
Storagereview.com
Theinquirer.org
Theregister.co.uk
Those are the only sites with a consistent record of non-biased reviews. EVERY other hardware site i'm aware of has turned up dodgy conclusions and test data one way or another.
If you want my credentials i've been a professional hardware engineer for almost 6 years.
Thanks! :nod::yes:
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Screw image quality; I need speed! :D
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Wow, some really useful stuff there... I have to say I'm thinking of moving towards an nv35 range card... not because it's that much better over the nv30 range but because it supports OGL2 and DX9.1 and it's always nice to have that little bit more future proofing in a card. Yes, I know what they say about things never being future proof but... what can I say - it's nice to have just that little bit.
I just hope my GF2 keeps up till then!
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Originally posted by Thunder
Wow, some really useful stuff there... I have to say I'm thinking of moving towards an nv35 range card... not because it's that much better over the nv30 range but because it supports OGL2 and DX9.1 and it's always nice to have that little bit more future proofing in a card. Yes, I know what they say about things never being future proof but... what can I say - it's nice to have just that little bit.
I just hope my GF2 keeps up till then!
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How exactly can a non-programmable card support DX9 and OGL2.0??
It might be compatible, not Compliant
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Me personally, i think that the 64MB GF 2MX400 W/TV out is the best bang for your money... here in Australia I can get it for $133... about $70 US I think...
The 64MB DDR GF 4MX440 is pretty good too...$203 Australian or about $110 US...
For the top of the range but, its gotta be the 128MB DDR GF4 Ti4400 which is $659 Australian, or about $350 US...
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:lol: My graphics card is so outdated it isn't even funny. I have the original Nvidia TNT. I went to the Nvidia site and compared it to the GeForce 4, my card: 100% GeForce4 Ti 4600: 766%
lmao :lol:
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Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
Me personally, i think that the 64MB GF 2MX400 W/TV out is the best bang for your money... here in Australia I can get it for $133... about $70 US I think...
The 64MB DDR GF 4MX440 is pretty good too...$203 Australian or about $110 US...
For the top of the range but, its gotta be the 128MB DDR GF4 Ti4400 which is $659 Australian, or about $350 US...
Unfortunately I'd have to disagree. Due to the lack of power behind the GF2 MX, especially concerning memory bandwidth, there's little or no point in having more than 32MB since it can't make effective use of any more. Given that it's an extra 32MB of near-worthless memory for extra $$$ the regular 32MB variant would end up more cost effective.
The GF4 MX series isn't too bad, but get their behinds (as does the GF3 Ti200) soundly whipped by the new SiS Xabre 400, which is also priced in the same affordable bracket and is certainly something to look at if that's your market.
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Wow, that's an eye opener, I've never heard one good thing about any SiS hardware, ever. I have to admit I'm no HW geek but still, to hear they have a good GFX card is pretty amazing. :)
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The GF4 MX series isn't too bad, but get their behinds (as does the GF3 Ti200) soundly whipped by the new SiS Xabre 400, which is also priced in the same affordable bracket and is certainly something to look at if that's your market.
Well, I don't quite think that the Sis Xabre 400 is quite up to scratch, if only for the drivers. Sure, it performs at the level of the GF4 MX 440 and GF3 TI 200, but it has incorrect MIP mapping, and low LOD, making textures quite blurry. I mean, the textures resemble Voodoo 1 and 64 * 64 textures! And this can't be adjusted at all! There is not 1 single changeable 3d setting. Also, it has low performance for pixel shading and EMBM. But then, they can probably fix up these driver problems sooner or later.
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I throw my 0.02 cents inthe mix , the martox pherelia is shaping to bang everything , but with a hefty price card but with up to 3 monitor support.
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Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
Well, I don't quite think that the Sis Xabre 400 is quite up to scratch, if only for the drivers. Sure, it performs at the level of the GF4 MX 440 and GF3 TI 200, but it has incorrect MIP mapping, and low LOD, making textures quite blurry. I mean, the textures resemble Voodoo 1 and 64 * 64 textures! And this can't be adjusted at all! There is not 1 single changeable 3d setting. Also, it has low performance for pixel shading and EMBM. But then, they can probably fix up these driver problems sooner or later.
The pixel shader performance isn't that great, but it's better than the GF4 MX and its total lack of pixel shaders, and its lack of environment bump mapping. 3D settings can be adjusted in time - the software you're initially given to tweak the card is utterly horrible, when 3rd party software comes into fruition then the potential of adjusting settings will be apparent.
The card is new, so they're going to have a long period of refining and producing their cards, though with most major manufacturers jumping on the bandwagon support shouldn't be too hard to find. In the end I don't see that anything disastrous will happen, such as the first batch of GeForce3 cards being recalled due to design problems.
Work on the drivers still progresses, so things like LOD and environment mapping performance can be refined. As always with brand new products I wouldn't go out and buy them myself, that's what other geeks are for :D
On another note, it looks like we won't have to wait much longer for the Parhelia. According to Matrox, they will start shipping the card on 30th June at a cost of US$399, with 64MB and 256MB versions available soon after. Unfortunately a few people who have already had the chance to test the card have noted that it's more likely to be competition for the GF4 Ti4600, rather than being able to compete with future cards like the NV30.
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Well, the more alternatives, the better :D
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Bear in mind Nvidia will always go for speed at the cost of terrible image quality.
I still reckon the 3Dlabs card will be better than the Parhelia.