Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: SaltyWaffles on July 07, 2012, 06:04:51 pm
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I'm not saying there's anything even close to a plot hole here (there isn't), but I'm a bit confused about the GTVA's strategy in the war, as well as the UEF's lack of replenishing or building up their forces.
For the GTVA:
1) A lot of their justifications and goals for invading Sol are now being rendered moot by their own actions. They're destroying Sol's infrastructure and industrial base, angering and psychologically hurting the entirety of the UEF and its culture, and killing a whole lot of people that would otherwise be able to contribute to the economy and defense of all humans and vasudans.
2) If the GTVA is enacting total war protocols and is fully willing to sustain heavy casualties and do a lot of damage in order to end the war quickly and decisively, why are they still only sending just enough ships/assets to achieve parity with the UEF, instead of briefly surging in with overwhelming force and numbers?
3) Why not put a bunch of new ships in Sol and then immediately engage in a diplomatic resolution? Their initial terms were ludicrous, and they didn't seem to try very hard in pressing for those terms. If the UEF is truly pacifistic, terms that stopped short of outlawing their entire way of life would probably work.
4) The GTVA, on all levels, should know by now that the UEF is far from pacifistic and antimilitary. Even during the isolationist period, when pirates and small insurrectionist groups were the only perceived threat, the UEF military was quite strong and innovative. The UEF continues to hold its own against the GTVA, even after total war protocols are enacted. If the UEF's culture and governmental system is antimilitary and pacifistic, there is no way the war would be in the state it is right now, or even close. At this point, even some minor concessions from the UEF could achieve the ideal goals of the GTVA in exchange for ending the war (my first guess would be removing all executive and official authority from the Council of Elders, as well as giving a decent increase to military spending). And how could Ubuntu officials (or their constituents) be antimilitary and weak-on-defense in the face of what happened with the NTF and (especially) the Second Shivan Incursion? They wouldn't have any argument--Shivans are totally xenocidal, alien, and overwhelmingly powerful, and have never tried nor responded to any forms of diplomacy or even communication.
For the UEF:
1) I get that there's some big secret project going on, but it seems that only Earth is dedicating major resources to it. So why, then, has the UEF not really replaced any of its losses (save for some Uhlans and Kents), or bolstered its military even in a time of great need? If the Elders wanted to pursue a diplomatic solution to the war, it still doesn't make sense, as having a better navy gives you an edge in negotiations, and would allow for reasonable terms to end the war.
2) Why aren't any of the Solaris destroyers deployed more often? I understand the concept of "fleet-in-being", but only the Atreus (and later the Imperiouse, I guess) could hope to stand up to a Solaris, even with escorts. If you were to leave several Karunas and/or Narayanas back "home" for defense, sortying a Solaris to take out a GTVA Hecate that's lacking in fighter cover and complement and protected by a few older escorts would be a major defensive victory. A Solaris is capable of jumping to any point in Sol in a few minutes' notice, and can jump back in about as much time--and unlike Karunas, Solaris' have pretty good durability.
3) Why does no one outside of Admiral Byrne and the Council of Elders seem to know what this secret project is? Even Calder and Netreba don't seem to know at all, which baffles me. If its such a huge project that it takes enormous resources and assets from their navy and spacecraft, how could it possibly be secret to the highest officers in the UEF? Especially since the Elders aren't supposed to have that kind of authority (huge short-term expenditures at the expense of critical, immediate needs).
4) Why didn't First and Second fleets help out the Third Fleet much in the first 18 months of the war? I may have gotten the wrong impression, but surely preventing the fall of 1/3rd (or more) of Sol and the capture and/or destruction of a huge chunk of Sol's infrastructure or supplies leave Earth and Mars far more open than sending a few frigates (or a single Solaris)? Besides, the GTVA hadn't activated total war protocols yet, so why the disproportional fear?
5) About the Meridian strike--a carrier was wide open and overextended, covered only by a few older escort ships and a few wings of craft. Why would First, Second, and Third fleets only send a combined force of 2 Karunas, 2 Uriels, and a wing of bombers? Why not sortie a Solaris to outright kill the destroyer? Or deploy a wing of those Fleet Bombers, escorted by a wing of the White Knights (or whatever they're called), to knock out the Meridian's engines in order to achieve a destroyer kill?
And a general question:
1) Why would the Gaian Effort side with the GTVA? Isn't the UEF much more aligned with their ideals and continued existence after the war? And isn't the UEF a lot more environmentally friendly, too?
I may just totally missed or misinterpreted certain things, but these questions kept coming back to the forefront of my mind when playing/watching WiH. And while I do understand that some of these questions may be meant to be answered in the second part of WiH, it is quite jarring and perplexing to me in the mean time, and these events happened in the timeline of the first part of WiH, so...
Any answers would be greatly appreciated. :)
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GTVA
1) The original plan was blasted to pieces by the 14th's unexpected journey into an alternative reality and subsequent actions on arriving in Sol which forced a war that Ironically the GTVA was no longer prepared for. Also while there are strikes against infrastructure it is generally targeted (though there are incidents that could be taken to be against this). As for UEF culture they *want* to wipe it out because of its predominately pacifistic nature which they perceive would weaken the GTVA resolve during the next Shivan encounter.
2) Logistics transit limitations imposed by the node dictate what forces the GTVA can deploy, not to mention security implications in the home systems.
3)/4) see last part of answer 1) Ubuntu is seen as a cultural threat that could undermine GTVA readiness for the next shivan war. The UEF have held on so long due to the poor performance of the GTVA in the early months which gave the UEF time to regroup.
UEF
1) from what we see in WiH the majority of resources is either going into the project or maintaining the current fleet, by the end of WiH the UEF only have months worth of material left to maintain their fleet due to the logistics damage inflicted by the GTVA
2) deploying a Solaris would be highly risky, by doing so you pin it in place until it's drives recharge, in which time a GTVA HK force can strike against the ship, close up to maximize the advantage of beams.
3) to keep it secret, leaks could come from any source so you keep a war winning project under wraps as much as possible
4) the council of elders basically order a defensive posture, iirc the second and third work together to some degree but the first is keeping itself for this secret project and detering the GTVA from orbiting Earth.
5) the GTVA had them committed to defending key targets, there was not the forces available for an overwhelming response
general
1) give a terrorist support and they are yours until ideology conflicts are forced or someone else helps them more. Also remember the Gaians have been at war with the UEF for a while at this point, it's more of an alliance of convenience than of ideology.
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GTVA:
2. Remember they have a lot of systems to look out in, hell, I don't know how much of the Allied Fleet was restored after most of them were just ransacked and dead boned near the Vega Node in Capella. If you took most of the post-Capella stories at face value (whether or not you like to consider them being part of the eighteen year gap), any that took place around five to ten years still had the Terrans licking their wounds, like about having less than a fifth of the fleet left.
UEF:
1. The Feds only have their jurisdiction as far between the Sun and Mars (not sure about the asteroid belt, I think near Ceres or something), and with the majority of the larger planets gone, you can only go so far with the amount of resources you could scrap together...
2 and 5. If you payed attention to Post Meridian, any deployment of a Solaris would leave Earth or Mars open to a fleet attack (there's only three, one for each known Admiral in the UEF Fleet, and by Delenda Est, two of them were pinning down the GTVA at Jupiter). Plus, the Council thought anything above a Karuna was overkill, since that was controversial enough during its design (I'd be willing to scream read the lore again).
5 specifically: See above, and the Vajradhara Fleet Bombers? They were kept in reserve around Earth and Mars, mainly because a big chunk of them got Trebuchetted to death, and they are as expensive as crack (if I had to guess, something like twice as expensive as the space equivalent of an F-22). The Durgas were the next best thing, unless you wanted to introduce the Lapith Strike Bomber.
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Salty,
Since you said the GTVA's original demands were basically unreasonable, what new proposals should they make now? Since the GTVA currently holds the upper hand I think they could get at least some of what they want.
Or if that wouldn't work, what should the GTVA have done from the beginning instead of demand Sol surrender at gunpoint?
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how about "OH HAI GAIS! Look, we fixed the node for you. You can get out and about in the galaxy again. So wanna be friends? Hows about we get the old club back together? Oh and remember those alien dudes that helped us kill the Lucifer? They're in the club now too. Oh BTW, while you were gone the Shivans came back an wrecked ****, so you'd best be throwing some weight behind your defenses. We can hook you up with BEAMZ if you throw some of that massive resource base our way. Let's do lunch."
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Or if that wouldn't work, what should the GTVA have done from the beginning instead of demand Sol surrender at gunpoint?
If you're talking what should have been done to avoid the mess by Journey's End, it's basically...
+"Yeah... we come in peace. Can we talk to your government or something?"
-"Who did you say you were?"
+"We're the GTVA. Yeah, it's not the GTA anymore, the Vasudans are on our side now. Oh, and the Lucifer that we helped blow the crap out of and accidentally cut you guys off? Um... we've seen worse. Lots worse. Like a bunch of the even worse things wrecked a star, plus a bunch of our own guys became jerks that rebelled, and everything got shot to hell."
-"Where are the Vasudans? I don't see any that came with you guys. Pics or it didn't happen!"
+"Okay... yeah, we're maddened, and Earth is pretty much the only place worth getting to. Everyone's depressed, and if it's okay, we just want to stay. We've spent so much dough and time trying to come back here, and we've invested so much to piss off almost every Vasudan."
Something tells me a bunch of guys in High Command and the Assembly were a bunch of guys who thought bullets solved everything.
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Or if that wouldn't work, what should the GTVA have done from the beginning instead of demand Sol surrender at gunpoint?
If you're talking what should have been done to avoid the mess by Journey's End, it's basically...
+"Yeah... we come in peace. Can we talk to your government or something?"
-"Who did you say you were?"
+"We're the GTVA. Yeah, it's not the GTA anymore, the Vasudans are on our side now. Oh, and the Lucifer that we helped blow the crap out of and accidentally cut you guys off? Um... we've seen worse. Lots worse. Like a bunch of the even worse things wrecked a star, plus a bunch of our own guys became jerks that rebelled, and everything got shot to hell."
-"Where are the Vasudans? I don't see any that came with you guys. Pics or it didn't happen!"
+"Okay... yeah, we're maddened, and Earth is pretty much the only place worth getting to. Everyone's depressed, and if it's okay, we just want to stay. We've spent so much dough and time trying to come back here, and we've invested so much to piss off almost every Vasudan."
Something tells me a bunch of guys in High Command and the Assembly were a bunch of guys who thought bullets solved everything.
actually I believe GTVA policy is "plasma beams solve everything" :D
though a better strategy would have been
+"yeah we come in peace but your way of life could bring about the extinction of humanity so until you give that up we are going to have to make sure nothing leaves this system in non-vaporous form can we set up a blockade here?"
-"uh no?"
+"ok its all right over the past 50 years we developed a universal solution to problems"
-"you discovered ubuntu like us?"
+"no, plasma beams :D"*opens fire*
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At heart I think most of the GTVA public and maybe portions of the GTVA hierarchy is against the war effort. Meaning that a full deployment of the fleet is next to impossible. Also the shear number of systems in the GTVA may prohibit a deployment of more forces.
As for the UEF lack of a build up there are multiple logistical reasons I can see. First of all ships beyond the fighter and bomber class not only use large amount of resources they take time to build. It takes approximately two years to build an USN Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer which would is equivalent to a Karuna class vessel. A Nimitz class aircraft carrier the equivalent of a Solaris class destroyer takes almost a decade to complete.
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can we make the assumption that the ubuntu government is efficient and competent? at least as far as the economy goes? i think that's generally implied in the lore. cuz if so, you can probably shave off upwards of 90% of the production time for vessels.
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I would probably say that the UEF has a more efficient economy but that efficiency probably translates more in the region of 5-25% reduction in construction time, remember that whatever you do it will still take a certain amount of work hours to put the ship together, if you are getting close to double the time it should take due to "inefficiencies" then you should probably wind down the business or be hiring new middle management to wip things into shape because doubling the wage bill is a hefty overhead to add to the construction cost of the ship.
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You can pretty much make the construction time out to be whatever you damn well feel like; freespace is set so far in the future there is no comparison to current ship building techniques.
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For the GTVA:
1) A lot of their justifications and goals for invading Sol are now being rendered moot by their own actions. They're destroying Sol's infrastructure and industrial base, angering and psychologically hurting the entirety of the UEF and its culture, and killing a whole lot of people that would otherwise be able to contribute to the economy and defense of all humans and vasudans.
That's exactly the situation the Tevs wanted to avoid in the first place, which is why Severanti was so cautious during the first 18 months of war. However, because of that cautiousness, the war has gone for far too long and the Tevs just want to end it, now, before they either get a new Shivan incursion or simply a civil war due to population unrest on their side.
2) If the GTVA is enacting total war protocols and is fully willing to sustain heavy casualties and do a lot of damage in order to end the war quickly and decisively, why are they still only sending just enough ships/assets to achieve parity with the UEF, instead of briefly surging in with overwhelming force and numbers?
'Cause 1) logistics, 2) gotta keep ships in their territories to contain a potential Shivan incursion, 3) gotta maintain a visible presence in Tevs systems to keep public unrest under control. Four battlegroups out of the two dozens they have for the about two dozens of systems they have to patrol is already stretching their fleet and logistics to their limits.
3) Why not put a bunch of new ships in Sol and then immediately engage in a diplomatic resolution? Their initial terms were ludicrous, and they didn't seem to try very hard in pressing for those terms. If the UEF is truly pacifistic, terms that stopped short of outlawing their entire way of life would probably work.
4) The GTVA, on all levels, should know by now that the UEF is far from pacifistic and antimilitary. Even during the isolationist period, when pirates and small insurrectionist groups were the only perceived threat, the UEF military was quite strong and innovative. The UEF continues to hold its own against the GTVA, even after total war protocols are enacted. If the UEF's culture and governmental system is antimilitary and pacifistic, there is no way the war would be in the state it is right now, or even close. At this point, even some minor concessions from the UEF could achieve the ideal goals of the GTVA in exchange for ending the war (my first guess would be removing all executive and official authority from the Council of Elders, as well as giving a decent increase to military spending). And how could Ubuntu officials (or their constituents) be antimilitary and weak-on-defense in the face of what happened with the NTF and (especially) the Second Shivan Incursion? They wouldn't have any argument--Shivans are totally xenocidal, alien, and overwhelmingly powerful, and have never tried nor responded to any forms of diplomacy or even communication.
The initial terms are all the Tevs can afford to accept. Of course the Feds have proved they weren't a bunch of helpless hippie pacifists. But it's too late for the Tevs to back down. They can't afford to reduce the terms to more acceptable levels and appear weaker to the eyes of a Tev population which is already severely doubting their leaders and the capabilities of their military.
And, as a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if whatever the Project is wasn't actually a large part in the reasons why the Tevs don't really want a peaceful resolution to the war.
For the UEF:
1) I get that there's some big secret project going on, but it seems that only Earth is dedicating major resources to it. So why, then, has the UEF not really replaced any of its losses (save for some Uhlans and Kents), or bolstered its military even in a time of great need? If the Elders wanted to pursue a diplomatic solution to the war, it still doesn't make sense, as having a better navy gives you an edge in negotiations, and would allow for reasonable terms to end the war.
That was probably the case at the beginning of the war. Since then, Severanti has spent 18 months weakening the UEF infrastructure wherever it didn't hurt the long terms GTVA objectives for Sol, and Steele has literally mauled the Earth logistic infrastructure during the Blitz. Keep in mind that, until Steele arrived, the Feds only lost a few frigates and cruisers, which were probably at least partially replaced during the 18 months. Most of the losses during the war happened during and after Artemis. Not enough time to replace them since then, and not enough logistics to replace them since the Blitz.
2) Why aren't any of the Solaris destroyers deployed more often? I understand the concept of "fleet-in-being", but only the Atreus (and later the Imperiouse, I guess) could hope to stand up to a Solaris, even with escorts. If you were to leave several Karunas and/or Narayanas back "home" for defense, sortying a Solaris to take out a GTVA Hecate that's lacking in fighter cover and complement and protected by a few older escorts would be a major defensive victory. A Solaris is capable of jumping to any point in Sol in a few minutes' notice, and can jump back in about as much time--and unlike Karunas, Solaris' have pretty good durability.
It's not because you don't see em that they aren't deployed. In every single major battle, at least from Artemis and onward, you can be sure both the Eris and the Toutatis were deployed. That includes the Blitz, the diversions during Aristeia, and Delenda Est.
Also, we don't have much info about the Solaris jump rate, but it is BP canon that the bigger the ship the longer the recharge time. A Narayana already requires about 15 minutes to recharge. You probably shouldn't assume the Solaris would take any less.
3) Why does no one outside of Admiral Byrne and the Council of Elders seem to know what this secret project is? Even Calder and Netreba don't seem to know at all, which baffles me. If its such a huge project that it takes enormous resources and assets from their navy and spacecraft, how could it possibly be secret to the highest officers in the UEF? Especially since the Elders aren't supposed to have that kind of authority (huge short-term expenditures at the expense of critical, immediate needs).
Because it's SEKRET. Duh.
Remember the Elders are mostly composed of former GTI top members. They know how to keep stuff secret.
4) Why didn't First and Second fleets help out the Third Fleet much in the first 18 months of the war? I may have gotten the wrong impression, but surely preventing the fall of 1/3rd (or more) of Sol and the capture and/or destruction of a huge chunk of Sol's infrastructure or supplies leave Earth and Mars far more open than sending a few frigates (or a single Solaris)? Besides, the GTVA hadn't activated total war protocols yet, so why the disproportional fear?
I'm pretty sure Second supported Third long before Artemis. First remained passive because the Elders were still convinced they could find a peaceful resolution to the war.
5) About the Meridian strike--a carrier was wide open and overextended, covered only by a few older escort ships and a few wings of craft. Why would First, Second, and Third fleets only send a combined force of 2 Karunas, 2 Uriels, and a wing of bombers? Why not sortie a Solaris to outright kill the destroyer? Or deploy a wing of those Fleet Bombers, escorted by a wing of the White Knights (or whatever they're called), to knock out the Meridian's engines in order to achieve a destroyer kill?
Same as usual, it's not because you don't see em that they're not deployed.
And a general question:
1) Why would the Gaian Effort side with the GTVA? Isn't the UEF much more aligned with their ideals and continued existence after the war? And isn't the UEF a lot more environmentally friendly, too?
The Gefs aren't sided with the Tevs. The Tevs are helping one cell of the Gefs against the UEF. The Gefs hate the UEF guts, and the Tevs take advantage of that.
Also, the Gefs aren't a united force, by far. Each individual cell is independent, if not outright hostile to the others. And, just as the GTVI got a Gef cell to cooperate with em, I'm pretty sure the UEF Intelligence or the Fedayeen got some other Gefs to work with em too. The Gefs are just too good a neutral force to not use for deniable purposes by both sides. Obviously in WiH, flying on the UEF side, it's pretty normal that you only encounter the Gefs that are fighting against you.
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Something I've wondered about the Vasudans:
If the Vasudans aren't really for the war right now and have sympathies for the UEF, why are they doing anything at all to help Steele...i.e., a middle of the road approach? Why send even logistics help?
Shouldn't they either stay out of the war totally or fully commit to combat operations?
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Something I've wondered about the Vasudans:
If the Vasudans aren't really for the war right now and have sympathies for the UEF, why are they doing anything at all to help Steele...i.e., a middle of the road approach? Why send even logistics help?
Shouldn't they either stay out of the war totally or fully commit to combat operations?
Maybe they're just helping them kill each other better, so that they can turn on whoever is left and enslave the survivors! Quick, someone beam the surface of their homeworld....AGAIN!
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I'm guessing that initially at least, before Steele's trickery, they were doing so in a "we're sending these ships because we're bound by our alliance to do so, and would rather that than provide military support" way.
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it could be a stalling tactic and they are just keeping the GTVA on their feet till they can decide which faction to support
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Shouldn't they either stay out of the war totally or fully commit to combat operations?
They are committed to a military and economic alliance they probably need. The Vasudan economy bounced back after the Great War because the major Terran production center was gone, and new markets for Vasudan-made goods opened up. If they don't offer at least token support, the Alliance dissolves, the Vasudan export economy flatlines, economic chaos ensues, and the government is up **** Creek without a paddle or a boat.
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that's bad considering vasuda prime was a desert so most vasudans probably don't know how to swim.
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Something I've wondered about the Vasudans:
If the Vasudans aren't really for the war right now and have sympathies for the UEF, why are they doing anything at all to help Steele...i.e., a middle of the road approach? Why send even logistics help?
Shouldn't they either stay out of the war totally or fully commit to combat operations?
They're sending stuff now for the same reason the Tevs have sent Steele at the beginning of WiH. The war had been going on for far too long and they can't afford to let it go forever, should a new Shivan incursion or a civil war happen. That, plus the fact that, although the Emperor is opposed to the war, I doubt this is the case for most Vasudans, especially in the military, which probably added some political pressure to help the Tevs.
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that's bad considering vasuda prime was a desert so most vasudans probably don't know how to swim.
:yes:
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Re: the Vasudans
They would rather not be fighting but it is not surprising that they joined up with the GTVA (note what the initials stand for :)). Why would they not side with the Tevs? They have been close allies and trading partners for ~50 years. They design ships together, have a shared (somewhat) military, and because of their alliance both survived the 2nd incursion. By contrast the Feds are "those people we used to know, but I hear they are still cool." Why throw away a good partnership for something that may not be a long term alliance.
As for why they are only providing Logistics. If the Vasudans sent a destroyer or 3 the war would likely be over fairly quickly. My theory is that the rediscovery of Earth is bad for the Vasudans. If Earth rejoins the GTVA the balance of power and influence will shift dramatically away from the Vasudans. After Earth was sealed both the Terrans and Vasudans were in the same boat. Both of their homeworlds were lost (with I assume the vast production and populations that were there) so both people became exiles in a way. Once Earth is readmitted, it will bring both population and resources to the Terran half of the GTVA, which while great for the overall alliance is bad for the Vasudan half. It is in the Vasudans best interest to have the war drag on for a long time, weakening both parties and creating ill will so that when the inevitable occurs (Earth joins the GTVA either as a free party or as a part of the Terran half) the Terrans will not be strongly unified.
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The reason for Vasudan intervention is that the war with the UEF is drawing away and destroying resources that will be needed when the Shivans invade again which could be any time, and while the UEF is closer to their ideology, the tevs have the more substantial military which is better equipped to handle such an invasion, as AoA proved a Terran battlegroup is able to operate unsupported for a strategically significant length of time against sizable shivan forces and be capable to mounting offensive operations. The UEF on the other hand even before the war just does not have this capability.
tl:dr
The war is hampering the GTVA's ability to respond to a Shivan attack so Vasudan intervention is nothing more than bringing a swift end to it
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Is the Vasudan populace subject to the same media blackout and PsyOps that Terran Citizens are, in regards to the UEF?
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Well, it's mostly the Tevs that are in the Sol theater. Whatever the zods hear about the war and the UEF most likely come nearly exclusively from Tev sources.
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Is the Vasudan populace subject to the same media blackout and PsyOps that Terran Citizens are, in regards to the UEF?
They'd have to be for the campaign to be effective.
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As for why they are only providing Logistics. If the Vasudans sent a destroyer or 3 the war would likely be over fairly quickly. My theory is that the rediscovery of Earth is bad for the Vasudans. If Earth rejoins the GTVA the balance of power and influence will shift dramatically away from the Vasudans. After Earth was sealed both the Terrans and Vasudans were in the same boat. Both of their homeworlds were lost (with I assume the vast production and populations that were there) so both people became exiles in a way. Once Earth is readmitted, it will bring both population and resources to the Terran half of the GTVA, which while great for the overall alliance is bad for the Vasudan half. It is in the Vasudans best interest to have the war drag on for a long time, weakening both parties and creating ill will so that when the inevitable occurs (Earth joins the GTVA either as a free party or as a part of the Terran half) the Terrans will not be strongly unified.
Perhaps the Vasudans should then make a deal with the GTVA Terrans? Something like, in exchange for a couple destroyers, ironclad guarantees about economic aid and access to Earth's resources.
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Perhaps the Vasudans should then make a deal with the GTVA Terrans? Something like, in exchange for a couple destroyers, ironclad guarantees about economic aid and access to Earth's resources.
That would be an interesting concept. Split up the Solar system between the GTVA Terrans and the Vasudans so as to maintain the status quo. Maybe give Earth (minus the deserts, since Vasudans like those) to the Humans and a few other major planets (Mars, Jupiter, Venus) and some shipyards to the Vasudans while keeping certain resources shared for the common defense against the Shivans. The Jovians and Martians may not like that too much but they lost so they don't get to vote :D.
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If I was the supreme overlord of Sol while all this was going on, and everything went to **** as it did, I'd initiate a scorched earth policy...ON ALL THE THINGS!
"Oh hello Mr Tev, you want this refinery? TOO BAD, I JUST NUKED IT!
What's that, you'll be happy to just visit the orphans on Earth?.....I personally piloted the bomber that leveled the orphanages.
I'm sorry, did you just say that those resources are essential to safeguarding the galaxy and so you're just going to come in here and steal all the hard work of the citizens of Sol and stamp out their culture because you feel like it may weaken your sorry ass military state? LETS SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DUMP ALL THIS ANTIMATTER INTO THE SUN :mad2:
This is MY land, I helped cultivate it. If I can't have it, then I'll make sure that only our ghosts will be able to reside here! ALL HAIL SHIVA!!!"
Or something along those lines.
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Their was once a guy planing on doing just that to a certain state in central europe...
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Jokes aside how would a seriously presented "Scorched Earth" policy work? Evacuate the population to safe locations and burn and/or demo everything of industrial worth.
Offer Sol to the GTVA under reasonable terms to the UEF on the condition they will do it. The GTVA then have the problem do they risk not only loosing the entire reason for the war but leaving themselves with a massive refugee problem because lets face it without industry there is no way to even process food, let alone fuel to power things like life support on space stations and habitat domes and not helping will make it to the general GTVA civilian population because, no amount of official secrets and orders will stop every GTVA military person or attached civilian from talking about such an act, it's human nature.
It would come down to how serious the UEF would be in that situation.
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Put bluntly if the Russians had gotten control of Sol the GTVA would be totally boned.
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I don't think a Scorched Earth policy would ever be able to be implemented by the UEF though. You saw how difficult it was to self-d a single installation in TBI (granted, there were still people aboard), now imagine trying to do that with an entire system.
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GTVA
1) The original plan was blasted to pieces by the 14th's unexpected journey into an alternative reality and subsequent actions on arriving in Sol which forced a war that Ironically the GTVA was no longer prepared for. Also while there are strikes against infrastructure it is generally targeted (though there are incidents that could be taken to be against this). As for UEF culture they *want* to wipe it out because of its predominately pacifistic nature which they perceive would weaken the GTVA resolve during the next Shivan encounter.
I know the plan got screwed up. However, the original plan was only desirable/viable if the war could be won quickly and decisively, without causing major damage to Sol's infrastructure/industry or killing a lot of people. That's from the "mouths" of the Security Council/High Command. Now, 18 months into the war, many thousands are dead (civilians included), the GTVA has to resort to total war to win, they're making the entirety of Sol's population hate the GTVA, they're destroying Sol's infrastructure and industry, and spending exorbitant amounts of money and resources to win a war that destroys the very things they started the war to preserve.
And it's not a justifiable case of "gone too far to turn back now": continuing on the current path only makes things worse.
As for the UEF's culture--this is probably the most important point behind the war. The GTVA High Command saw the Ubuntu culture as a huge threat to the GTVA (due to the perceived likelihood of it spreading and dominating the existing GTVA culture) because (according to them) they are pacifistic, averse to the military, and spent relatively little on the military. Well, 18 months into the war, the UEF is holding its own against the GTVA despite allocating massive resources to some secret project and a commitment to a defensive war until a diplomatic solution can be found. It was only when the GTVA sent in a new battlegroup of its most advanced ships and some of its best officers--and resorted to total war--that they gained a major victory. Clearly, if the Ubuntu culture was pacifistic, weak on defense, and anti-military, the UEF wouldn't have even lasted 6 months, let alone 18+ (and still going). Further, the UEF turned economic collapse into a huge socio-economic boom with techniques and methodologies that could be applied almost anywhere, and they are still pretty damn good at war.
They should know by now that the Ubuntu culture is, for the most part, exactly what the terran side of the GTVA has needed all along--a unified culture that motivated and comforted humanity, rather than a nihilistic culture driven by fear and loss.
That's not to say that it would be fine and dandy for the GTVA to adopt the UEF's culture and system wholesale--this is where negotiations an diplomacy comes in, and the Second Shivan Incursion is close to a be-all-end-all argument about the necessity of a strong, well prepared and steadily advancing military. There's a lot of effective middle ground to be found here, if only the GTVA High Command cared to think about it for a few seconds.
2) Logistics transit limitations imposed by the node dictate what forces the GTVA can deploy, not to mention security implications in the home systems.
Sort of; the logistics issue is more along the lines of supporting a certain level of forces for an extended period of time, rather than the node physically being incapable of holding X amount of ships traveling through it at a certain rate. This means that the GTVA should be able to send in a force of about four destroyers (and their escorts) within a few days, and have the entire Sol invasion force conduct a massive assault to overwhelm and effectively defeat the UEF in a single month (or less).
As for the security of the home systems--it's a much bigger security risk to have several battlegroups off fighting a resource-intensive war for years than it is to have a few less destroyer groups in your systems for a few weeks. If it's a big enough problem where you need all of your destroyers in all of your systems throughout the entire potential conflict with the Shivans, you've already lost, really. Or the Shivans somehow found a dozen new jump nodes linked to a dozen GTVA systems and it all came together in the same few week span.
3)/4) see last part of answer 1) Ubuntu is seen as a cultural threat that could undermine GTVA readiness for the next shivan war. The UEF have held on so long due to the poor performance of the GTVA in the early months which gave the UEF time to regroup.
You're correct in that the Ubuntu culture was seen as a threat to GTVA's readiness in the next potential Shivan incursion. However, emphasis on the was. The UEF has demonstrated quite clearly that their military readiness was not compromised by their culture, even when the system was completely isolated from all jump nodes and the biggest threat was the freaking Gaian Effort.
The UEF didn't hold on so long because the GTVA screwed up in the first 17 months, they held on because their military and personnel were strong enough and smart enough to hold their own against the GTVA. Sure, they had advantages in that a decent amount of their technical advantages were because they only had to operate in Sol, where logistics was easy. But while the GTVA was initially restricted from total war, the UEF was also restricted from offensive actions and escalation of the war--because they thought that, surely, the war was sparked from some kind of misunderstanding or matter that could be resolved diplomatically. Turns out the GTVA High Command is just selectively stupid and insane.
Even after the GTVA resorted to total war, the UEF is still managing to hold their own for weeks/months, which says quite a lot about how wrong the High Command's assessment of the Ubuntu culture and its effects was/is. At this point, it's vastly preferable for both sides, not to mention far "cheaper", to end the war through diplomatic means and achieve a middle ground that would benefit them both a lot more than outright victory.
If the GTVA's culture is nihilistic, bitter, and lacking something to believe in and hope for, invading the figurative "promised land" and wrecking it with total war is a terrible course of action. That's pure nihilism fuel right there, and it sure as hell isn't doing the shaky terran economy any favors. It's the kind of thing where you "win", stand on top of the ruins, and ask yourself "now what?", only to realize that you spent 18 years opening the doorway to the promised land...so that you could invade and wreck it. Oh, and almost everyone in it hates you now. Good luck with that! :|
UEF
1) from what we see in WiH the majority of resources is either going into the project or maintaining the current fleet, by the end of WiH the UEF only have months worth of material left to maintain their fleet due to the logistics damage inflicted by the GTVA
Sort of. IIRC, it was a year, not two months, and the 1-year figure was based on the UEF fleet being at the same level, which they thought was unlikely to be the case a year from then.
...and that's also part of my point, though: the massive amount of resources being devoted (and transported, if the Agincourt thing is any indication) to this project makes maintaining total secrecy rather unrealistic. How could Calder and Netreba--two of the three top military commanders in the entire UEF--not have any idea what this project was?
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2) deploying a Solaris would be highly risky, by doing so you pin it in place until it's drives recharge, in which time a GTVA HK force can strike against the ship, close up to maximize the advantage of beams.
It's not as risky as you might think. Unless its entire craft complement is somewhere else, an HK team would not be nearly enough to take a Solaris down--if its massive craft screen doesn't disable the beam cannons on the shock-jump corvettes, the numerous gatling railguns designed to do exactly that effectively probably will. Even then, the Solaris is a highly durable ship even by GTVA standards. Imagine if it carried some of those heavy or fleet bombers within its fighter bay--I'd be more concerned for the HK team.
Of course, you'd still only deploy a Solaris (when not an emergency) when you felt confident that the GTVA didn't have a major strikeforce (as in, more than an HK team) on Jump-5 standby.
3) to keep it secret, leaks could come from any source so you keep a war winning project under wraps as much as possible
I understand that completely; I'm referring to the implications that Netreba and Calder either don't have any idea what the project is or only have a slight idea. Militarily speaking, that's a terrible, terrible idea, as you're deliberately keeping your top military commanders in the dark about a mysterious project that's diverting a huge portion of the UEF's resources away from military matters. So if this project is (or can be) a superweapon of some kind, that's a major element they couldn't plan a strategy around. Or if the project won't need as much resources in two months, that's another major factor that the military can't plan for.
4) the council of elders basically order a defensive posture, iirc the second and third work together to some degree but the first is keeping itself for this secret project and detering the GTVA from orbiting Earth.
All three fleets used to work together until Netreba and Calder got fed up and demanded autonomy. As for deterring the GTVA from taking Earth--it's one system. While in normal-space terms it's huge, in subspace terms, it's tiny. In other words, if the GTVA wanted to put a corvette or destroyer in Earth orbit and threaten orbital bombardment unless you surrender, there is nothing you can do about it. Seriously, all you'd have to do is jump to a point in Earth orbit that isn't within a dozen kilometers of a force bigger than a frigate. Earth is a very big place. Earth orbit is even bigger. I don't think I need to do the math, here. The UEF could just call the bluff, and if the GTVA actually went and did it, well...congrats GTVA, you've become mass murderers of civilians, you've made the entire population of Sol hate you, and you've made the UEF determined and desperate enough to defeat you at any cost. Oh, and good luck justifying that one to the people back home. You'll have people comparing the Raynor/Titan to the Lucifer glassing Vasuda Prime in no time flat.
Thus, you just need to protect (with fleet assets) the important installations in Earth orbit, which doesn't require the entire (or even 90%) of the First Fleet, 24/7.
5) the GTVA had them committed to defending key targets, there was not the forces available for an overwhelming response
Not really; at that point the blitz had long passed its peak and most of the GTVA ships in Sol had fallen back to lick their wounds and regroup. If diverting a couple frigates (or even a Solaris for just a few minutes...) ensures a kill on a GTVA destroyer (and potentially its escorts), that is absolutely worth the (very temporary) risk.
general
1) give a terrorist support and they are yours until ideology conflicts are forced or someone else helps them more. Also remember the Gaians have been at war with the UEF for a while at this point, it's more of an alliance of convenience than of ideology.
...and the ideology of the GE completely conflicts with the ideology of the GTVA. Not to mention the fact that the GTVA would clearly love for the GE to cease to exist as soon as they were no longer useful (and you could spare the effort for it). And the GTVA is a much bigger threat to the GE than the UEF, in more ways than one.
Even for an alliance of convenience, it's not very convenient if you're helping a faction that wants you dead/defunct, is far more of a threat to you than the UEF, is willing to resort to far harsher methods to attack you, and would know a lot about your vulnerabilities, capabilities, and bases as a result of working with them. If the UEF wins, they'll be far harsher and more aggressive against you for helping the invading army, and if the GTVA wins, they will be much more willing and able to wipe you out than the UEF, and they know a lot about you (including where to hit you). It's something of a no-win deal.
Put bluntly if the Russians had gotten control of Sol the GTVA would be totally boned.
...no, Sol would be even easier to defeat. Their economy would be in shambles, they'd have tons of discontent and groups wanting to break away, and the culture wouldn't spread. Heck, you'd more likely have groups defecting to the GTVA than destroy their own population and/or infrastructure to deny it to an enemy that would give you a much better future and protection.
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Your whole post is full of unjustified absolutes and assumptions.
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GTVA
1) The original plan was blasted to pieces by the 14th's unexpected journey into an alternative reality and subsequent actions on arriving in Sol which forced a war that Ironically the GTVA was no longer prepared for. Also while there are strikes against infrastructure it is generally targeted (though there are incidents that could be taken to be against this). As for UEF culture they *want* to wipe it out because of its predominately pacifistic nature which they perceive would weaken the GTVA resolve during the next Shivan encounter.
I know the plan got screwed up. However, the original plan was only desirable/viable if the war could be won quickly and decisively, without causing major damage to Sol's infrastructure/industry or killing a lot of people. That's from the "mouths" of the Security Council/High Command. Now, 18 months into the war, many thousands are dead (civilians included), the GTVA has to resort to total war to win, they're making the entirety of Sol's population hate the GTVA, they're destroying Sol's infrastructure and industry, and spending exorbitant amounts of money and resources to win a war that destroys the very things they started the war to preserve.
And it's not a justifiable case of "gone too far to turn back now": continuing on the current path only makes things worse.
As for the UEF's culture--this is probably the most important point behind the war. The GTVA High Command saw the Ubuntu culture as a huge threat to the GTVA (due to the perceived likelihood of it spreading and dominating the existing GTVA culture) because (according to them) they are pacifistic, averse to the military, and spent relatively little on the military. Well, 18 months into the war, the UEF is holding its own against the GTVA despite allocating massive resources to some secret project and a commitment to a defensive war until a diplomatic solution can be found. It was only when the GTVA sent in a new battlegroup of its most advanced ships and some of its best officers--and resorted to total war--that they gained a major victory. Clearly, if the Ubuntu culture was pacifistic, weak on defense, and anti-military, the UEF wouldn't have even lasted 6 months, let alone 18+ (and still going). Further, the UEF turned economic collapse into a huge socio-economic boom with techniques and methodologies that could be applied almost anywhere, and they are still pretty damn good at war.
They should know by now that the Ubuntu culture is, for the most part, exactly what the terran side of the GTVA has needed all along--a unified culture that motivated and comforted humanity, rather than a nihilistic culture driven by fear and loss.
That's not to say that it would be fine and dandy for the GTVA to adopt the UEF's culture and system wholesale--this is where negotiations an diplomacy comes in, and the Second Shivan Incursion is close to a be-all-end-all argument about the necessity of a strong, well prepared and steadily advancing military. There's a lot of effective middle ground to be found here, if only the GTVA High Command cared to think about it for a few seconds.
http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/ubuntufaq8.html the Security Council see Ubuntu as an ongoing threat to GTVA readiness, more so than the Sol war because a war like this is winnable, the Ubuntu ideology on the other hand if it gets into the general population would take decades if not centuries to suppress and in the mean time followers will be calling for alternatives to military action to stop the shivans and the GTVA government see military action as the only effective response to a shivan invasion.
BP website Balance of Power ptII
Under the guidance of President Toqueville, as advised by a panel of psychohistorians and sociopsychologists, the Security Council elected to enact its most severe contingency: the invasion of Sol. This contingency was hotly debated but ultimately selected for several reasons:
It would bring Sol into the GTVA and secure its tremendous industrial base for the preservation and re-establishment of the colonies.
It would shatter Sol's obsolete militaries while largely preserving its manpower and industries to use in defense against the Shivans.
It would unseat the Ubuntu regime and return legitimate GTVA authority to the system. Many members of the Sol population had been alive during earlier GTA rule and would, it was judged, welcome the return of their original state. Moreover, probes suggested there were dissident elements in the Kuiper fringe who might be receptive to assistance.
It would create a hostile outgroup for the GTVA's Terran population to unify against.
There were hints of a major project underway in Sol space which might serve as a weapon against the GTVA.
The ethical implications of this plan were considerable, but the Security Council believed that the alternative was the disintegration of the GTVA, its replacement by a non-militaristic Ubuntu government, and the massive centralization of the human population in Sol, leaving the fringe worlds vulnerable to the inevitable third incursion.
2) Logistics transit limitations imposed by the node dictate what forces the GTVA can deploy, not to mention security implications in the home systems.
Sort of; the logistics issue is more along the lines of supporting a certain level of forces for an extended period of time, rather than the node physically being incapable of holding X amount of ships traveling through it at a certain rate. This means that the GTVA should be able to send in a force of about four destroyers (and their escorts) within a few days, and have the entire Sol invasion force conduct a massive assault to overwhelm and effectively defeat the UEF in a single month (or less).
As for the security of the home systems--it's a much bigger security risk to have several battlegroups off fighting a resource-intensive war for years than it is to have a few less destroyer groups in your systems for a few weeks. If it's a big enough problem where you need all of your destroyers in all of your systems throughout the entire potential conflict with the Shivans, you've already lost, really. Or the Shivans somehow found a dozen new jump nodes linked to a dozen GTVA systems and it all came together in the same few week span.
Once you have the forces in system and have won your blitz assault, you then need to support your ships to hold the system. It also means that if the Shivans invade while the assault is in progress of the few days aftermath the GTVA have depleted reserves delaying their ability to respond by several days.
3)/4) see last part of answer 1) Ubuntu is seen as a cultural threat that could undermine GTVA readiness for the next shivan war. The UEF have held on so long due to the poor performance of the GTVA in the early months which gave the UEF time to regroup.
You're correct in that the Ubuntu culture was seen as a threat to GTVA's readiness in the next potential Shivan incursion. However, emphasis on the was. The UEF has demonstrated quite clearly that their military readiness was not compromised by their culture, even when the system was completely isolated from all jump nodes and the biggest threat was the freaking Gaian Effort.
The UEF didn't hold on so long because the GTVA screwed up in the first 17 months, they held on because their military and personnel were strong enough and smart enough to hold their own against the GTVA. Sure, they had advantages in that a decent amount of their technical advantages were because they only had to operate in Sol, where logistics was easy. But while the GTVA was initially restricted from total war, the UEF was also restricted from offensive actions and escalation of the war--because they thought that, surely, the war was sparked from some kind of misunderstanding or matter that could be resolved diplomatically. Turns out the GTVA High Command is just selectively stupid and insane.
Even after the GTVA resorted to total war, the UEF is still managing to hold their own for weeks/months, which says quite a lot about how wrong the High Command's assessment of the Ubuntu culture and its effects was/is. At this point, it's vastly preferable for both sides, not to mention far "cheaper", to end the war through diplomatic means and achieve a middle ground that would benefit them both a lot more than outright victory.
If the GTVA's culture is nihilistic, bitter, and lacking something to believe in and hope for, invading the figurative "promised land" and wrecking it with total war is a terrible course of action. That's pure nihilism fuel right there, and it sure as hell isn't doing the shaky terran economy any favors. It's the kind of thing where you "win", stand on top of the ruins, and ask yourself "now what?", only to realize that you spent 18 years opening the doorway to the promised land...so that you could invade and wreck it. Oh, and almost everyone in it hates you now. Good luck with that! :|
Not the entire 17 months but then the GTVA needed to make preparations and the theatre commanders at the time were much more conservative than Steele
BP website Balance of Power ptII
The Great Umbilical
The failure of the GTVA forces to make immediate headway into Sol (or, in fact, to do so for the next several months) must be placed into context. Admiral Bei had been hand-picked to lead the beachhead, and his defection left the plan without a leader. The High Command instantly recognized that the entire GTVA OrBat and plan of attack had been compromised by Bei's defection. In order to prevent massive losses, the interim commander, Admiral Cyrus Severanti, elected to pursue an extremely conservative plan of attack in which fortification of the node would be paramount.
It would be months before a second assault on Neptune would begin. These months were marked by moderate-intensity warfare that saw the devastation of planetary infrastructure around Sol and the destruction of most of the regional defense militias not placed under the Jovian Third Fleet's jurisdiction.
in short it took months to prepare and enact an assault on a poorly defended target
UEF
1) from what we see in WiH the majority of resources is either going into the project or maintaining the current fleet, by the end of WiH the UEF only have months worth of material left to maintain their fleet due to the logistics damage inflicted by the GTVA
Sort of. IIRC, it was a year, not two months, and the 1-year figure was based on the UEF fleet being at the same level, which they thought was unlikely to be the case a year from then.
...and that's also part of my point, though: the massive amount of resources being devoted (and transported, if the Agincourt thing is any indication) to this project makes maintaining total secrecy rather unrealistic. How could Calder and Netreba--two of the three top military commanders in the entire UEF--not have any idea what this project was?
3) to keep it secret, leaks could come from any source so you keep a war winning project under wraps as much as possible
I understand that completely; I'm referring to the implications that Netreba and Calder either don't have any idea what the project is or only have a slight idea. Militarily speaking, that's a terrible, terrible idea, as you're deliberately keeping your top military commanders in the dark about a mysterious project that's diverting a huge portion of the UEF's resources away from military matters. So if this project is (or can be) a superweapon of some kind, that's a major element they couldn't plan a strategy around. Or if the project won't need as much resources in two months, that's another major factor that the military can't plan for.
Not sure on that, if they know what it is or not they have dismissed it out right so might not be interested in finding out, concentrating their efforts instead on keeping the GTVA at bay. Also Netreba and Calder are unreliable from the perspective of the elders, an opinion reinforced by the 2nd and 3rd going independent. Lastly even if they knew they wont make the information widely available if for no other reason because it would be treason, while the admirals bend and manipulate rules and orders to their advantage, they haven’t been seen to break them.
Also as a small nick-pick i said months not a couple of months which can be taken to be up to a year
2) deploying a Solaris would be highly risky, by doing so you pin it in place until it's drives recharge, in which time a GTVA HK force can strike against the ship, close up to maximize the advantage of beams.
It's not as risky as you might think. Unless its entire craft complement is somewhere else, an HK team would not be nearly enough to take a Solaris down--if its massive craft screen doesn't disable the beam cannons on the shock-jump corvettes, the numerous gatling railguns designed to do exactly that effectively probably will. Even then, the Solaris is a highly durable ship even by GTVA standards. Imagine if it carried some of those heavy or fleet bombers within its fighter bay--I'd be more concerned for the HK team.
Of course, you'd still only deploy a Solaris (when not an emergency) when you felt confident that the GTVA didn't have a major strikeforce (as in, more than an HK team) on Jump-5 standby.
What is this massive craft screen you are on about? The warships of the battle groups are mostly deployed defending important locations and the 3rd battle group is frankly close to collapse in numbers iirc. As for their fighters again only the UEF Solaris is close to full strength with it's fighter compliment also the destroyers are constantly fielding their fighters for defensive engagements else where so wont have them all available anyway.
4) the council of elders basically order a defensive posture, iirc the second and third work together to some degree but the first is keeping itself for this secret project and detering the GTVA from orbiting Earth.
All three fleets used to work together until Netreba and Calder got fed up and demanded autonomy. As for deterring the GTVA from taking Earth--it's one system. While in normal-space terms it's huge, in subspace terms, it's tiny. In other words, if the GTVA wanted to put a corvette or destroyer in Earth orbit and threaten orbital bombardment unless you surrender, there is nothing you can do about it. Seriously, all you'd have to do is jump to a point in Earth orbit that isn't within a dozen kilometers of a force bigger than a frigate. Earth is a very big place. Earth orbit is even bigger. I don't think I need to do the math, here. The UEF could just call the bluff, and if the GTVA actually went and did it, well...congrats GTVA, you've become mass murderers of civilians, you've made the entire population of Sol hate you, and you've made the UEF determined and desperate enough to defeat you at any cost. Oh, and good luck justifying that one to the people back home. You'll have people comparing the Raynor/Titan to the Lucifer glassing Vasuda Prime in no time flat.
Thus, you just need to protect (with fleet assets) the important installations in Earth orbit, which doesn't require the entire (or even 90%) of the First Fleet, 24/7.
The second and third work together where they can the first basically just sits there, the briefings and story elements in the opening missions hint that its not until the assault at the start of WiH when the first starts to get involved in the conflict in any serious manner. As for deterrence, it comes from a combination of guarding key locations and positioning yourself for rapid response, which means being near by (a couple of minutes jump away), not engaged with charged jump drives.
Thus, you just need to protect (with fleet assets) the important installations in Earth orbit, which doesn't require the entire (or even 90%) of the First Fleet, 24/7.
and yet that is what the first fleet does, probably because they are being ready for the GTVA dropping an entire battlegroup in orbit not just a corvette, as was called for in the original GTVA plan, which while abandoned for now is an option that both sides have to constantly evaluate for because it has the potential to win the war in one move.
5) the GTVA had them committed to defending key targets, there was not the forces available for an overwhelming response
Not really; at that point the blitz had long passed its peak and most of the GTVA ships in Sol had fallen back to lick their wounds and regroup. If diverting a couple frigates (or even a Solaris for just a few minutes...) ensures a kill on a GTVA destroyer (and potentially its escorts), that is absolutely worth the (very temporary) risk.
yep and the UEF need to be prepared for follow up attacks not to mention the damage to surviving UEF ships
general
1) give a terrorist support and they are yours until ideology conflicts are forced or someone else helps them more. Also remember the Gaians have been at war with the UEF for a while at this point, it's more of an alliance of convenience than of ideology.
...and the ideology of the GE completely conflicts with the ideology of the GTVA. Not to mention the fact that the GTVA would clearly love for the GE to cease to exist as soon as they were no longer useful (and you could spare the effort for it). And the GTVA is a much bigger threat to the GE than the UEF, in more ways than one.
Even for an alliance of convenience, it's not very convenient if you're helping a faction that wants you dead/defunct, is far more of a threat to you than the UEF, is willing to resort to far harsher methods to attack you, and would know a lot about your vulnerabilities, capabilities, and bases as a result of working with them. If the UEF wins, they'll be far harsher and more aggressive against you for helping the invading army, and if the GTVA wins, they will be much more willing and able to wipe you out than the UEF, and they know a lot about you (including where to hit you). It's something of a no-win deal.
Even if the situation is no win you still try to make the best of it and the GTVA is most likely to win so you can hope that the GTVA will “overlook” your past actions if you help them. If both sides honour the deal then the GTVA can provide access into other systems, not to mention the die-hards can then start on the GTVA in a couple of years.
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At the end of the day, WiH exists to tell Laporte's story and the larger plot of BP as a whole. It's not some emergent story arising from unbreakable laws of the FS 'verse; the game mechanics, mission design, fluff, etc. are all flexible and twisted to fit the plot.The devs did their damndest to come up with logical reasons for the war and keep things internally consistent, but you're always going to have some contrivances for the sake of narrative. Welcome to fiction. :p
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At the end of the day, WiH exists to tell Laporte's story and the larger plot of BP as a whole. It's not some emergent story arising from unbreakable laws of the FS 'verse; the game mechanics, mission design, fluff, etc. are all flexible and twisted to fit the plot.The devs did their damndest to come up with logical reasons for the war and keep things internally consistent, but you're always going to have some contrivances for the sake of narrative. Welcome to fiction. :p
And this is one of the most celebrated and wonderous things to come from fiction...Discussion! Sure the devs did their best to convey the story in a way that makes the most sense, but there will always be stuff that won't, and stuff like this is better than going "ZOMG, DAT THING THAR DIDN MAKE SENSE, STROY PPLZ TELL US Y IT HAPPEN!"
Well that's my reason here at least. I love a good debate. Sometimes I'll even debate on my own, for I am a Master Debater, and that's just how I roll!
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Sometimes I'll even debate on my own, for I am a Master Debater, and that's just how I roll!
Also called "schizophrenia".
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Sometimes I'll even debate on my own, for I am a Master Debater, and that's just how I roll!
Also called "schizophrenia".
The voices say that I'm not to listen to you. They say that I....That I must....Must....
(http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2011/8/17/90ce058b-3669-4f24-849e-a75e9ffeb4a2.jpg)
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Sometimes I'll even debate on my own, for I am a Master Debater, and that's just how I roll!
Also called "schizophrenia".
The voices say that I'm not to listen to you. They say that I....That I must....Must....
(http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2011/8/17/90ce058b-3669-4f24-849e-a75e9ffeb4a2.jpg)
:lol:
I salute you sir, on a meme-well-done.
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Oh, yeah, forgot to mention before: correct me if I'm wrong, but what good is keeping a third of your forces in one place as a deterrent if the enemy (correctly) assumes that you won't ever deploy more than a token force? A fleet-in-being loses most of its value when the enemy learns to just assume that you'll never actually deploy it. It's like divide-and-conquer where the enemy deliberately and willingly divides itself and sits there whistling as each third gets whittled down over time. I get Byrne's "stay the course" mentality, but there's a difference between staying committed to a defensive war and sitting in your base and sending nothing but a token force to help your allies as they get overrun by a numerically superior force (numerically superior because it's "1 vs. 1/3 or 2/3", followed by "1 vs. 1/3"). Does Byrne expect that, despite sitting inside his main the whole game, he'll be fine once his Ghost Academy finishes?
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Ultimately the established order is the elders, as the heads of government and not the admirals in charge, and the elders are ordering a defensive posture while they continue to explore diplomatic routes. For the 2nd and 3rd to go on the offensive they had to declare autonomy from the established chain of command, the 1st remains utterly loyal to the elders and will not go against their wishes and so the first fleet will only act to protect Earth, the moon and associated trade routes.
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It's been said the "middle ground" needs to be reached, what exactly would that be?
Since the UEF wants independence, wouldn't "middle ground" involve lessening that independence? What would be acceptable to both the UEF and GTVA?
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It's been said the "middle ground" needs to be reached, what exactly would that be?
Since the UEF wants independence, wouldn't "middle ground" involve lessening that independence? What would be acceptable to both the UEF and GTVA?
perhaps membership as an equal standing to the Terrans and Vasudans, so instead of Sol being part of the Terran element of the alliance they stand as a separate, independent voice so the UEF becomes a semi-autonomous element like the Vasudan Imperium, part of the alliance but a distinct element and cohesive government
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That still wouldn't fix the GTVA's chief reason for going to war, which was to prevent the Ubuntu doctrine from spreading
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very true, but then the UEF dont care about that
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So is there any way WIH could end without being at either extreme end of the possible ending spectrum (GTVA civil war due to civil unrest...........total subjugation of Sol) since it appears both sides don't want to budge (GTVA doesn't want Ubuntu to survive and UEF wants to stay independent)?
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tbh even if the GTVA wins totally It could still end up failing to squash Ubuntu. In this case the UEF fail as a government and a military, but win ideologically which in some respects is the preferable way for the Elders as it fuels the rebirth of the ideology to take hold in a non military fashion, which is a worse case scenario for the GTVA as without an armed resistance they have little they can fight back with. Also history is on their side in this, look at my own country, England, in our attempts to wipe out the Scottish and Welsh Celts, not to mention the disaster that is Ireland. And it is a pattern that is repeated throughout history, while a population continues to exist even after being conquered, their ideology, their identity will invariably carry on and at some point will start regaining gaining momentum, often not only in the conquered people but also in the people of the conquers.
Beyond this the only chance the UEF realistically have is to either force a diplomatic solution and/or reseal the node.
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the UEF do have one other option. they could appeal to a higher power be it vishnans, shivans, or those mystic gods that they go on about assuming they actually exist. simply put if they can throw a powerful 3rd faction into the mix that is either on thier side or against everyone the out come of the wars could be very different
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That's hinted at with Laporte's Nagari sensitivity, and the whole deal with the secret package received in One Perfect Moment.
IIRC, the GTVA plans to implement some of what it views as the less detrimental to shivan resistance portions of Ubuntu, probably including some of its economic thought and strategy.
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That still wouldn't fix the GTVA's chief reason for going to war, which was to prevent the Ubuntu doctrine from spreading
That's my point, though: the spread of Ubuntu culture has clearly been proven to not be a significant threat to GTVA security. Period.
The UEF is not the pacifist, anti-military culture that it was initially perceived as. The UEF has continually demonstrated that they are competent and rational enough to hold their own in the military arena, and they certainly kept a very powerful military force despite being completely isolated and having no enemies more threatening than the Gaian Effort.
Further, the Second Incursion is an invincible political point--being anti-military and irrationally pacifistic would only invite certain annihiliation. And since the UEF is definitely not anti-military, even when the threat of a Shivan invasion wasn't present, this really shouldn't be much of a problem.
But further, the spread of Ubuntu would actually improve the GTVA's security: a more united and happier people means less worry/effort about insurgencies and civil wars, much better morale, improving a weak economy, and giving the terran side of the GTVA something to believe in about themselves for the first time in decades.
While I'm sure there'd be some disagreement about the naunces of military spending, it's not worth going to war over, and it can be pretty easily resolved peacefully, at least to a degree that is acceptable to both sides.
Further, though, is that the Vishnans change the dynamic: they're an entity capable of matching the Shivans, and they're at least somewhat benevolent. They've already helped the GTVA out significantly (in AoA), defended their better qualities and potential in an argument with the Shivans, and expressed hope that the 14th BG would bring the rest of its race to enlightenment. Having them on your side and invested in your safety and development (at least culturally) is a MUCH more comforting measure of security against the Shivans than a slightly better military.
Not to mention that the GTVA should know quite well that maintaining a healthy economy always results in a much better military in the long run, and drastically reduces the threats of insurgency, civil war, and disunity.
The GTVA High Command should KNOW, at this point, that they can't achieve a true victory. Even if they win militarily, and the Ubuntu parties are outlawed and Council of Elders disbanded, the entire population of Sol will not forget, and they will have a very hard time forgiving. Attempting to keep its population bottled up in Sol will further fuel discontent by the terran population, and keeping the rest of the terran population from entering Sol will have a similar effect. If Sol's citizens don't actively resist the GTVA's oppressive rule, they'll make their discontent well known and highly durable.
The end result is that, no matter what, some kind of ideology will spread from Sol into the rest of the GTVA. The longer this war goes on, and the worse it gets, the worse that spreading ideology will be. Worst case scenario is open rebellion/defiance/breaking away from the GTVA because of what it did in the war. Its worst mistake was its gambit to assassinate an Elder on a diplomatic mission and frame the UEF for it. If one went into it with an open mind, the evidence is overwhelming and widespread (or it will be soon enough)...and when it gets out, the consequences will be severe. Laporte was right when she said it was going too far--not because it killed one person (or any one person), but what it meant: assassinating a friendly, well-intentioned diplomat on a diplomatic mission to achieve a peace beneficial to all factions, and framing the UEF for the act (or rather, claiming the entire setup was faked by the UEF and the Elder was never killed). That's lying to your allies in the worst way possible, and adding fuel to the potential firestorm is that the Vasudans went out on a limb by trusting their allies' word immediately in spite of the evidence, and openly proclaiming that trust.
I don't know why the GTVA HighComm is so suspicious and hostile towards the Vishnans--the Vishnans represent their best hope for survival and growth as a species, and they at least have an idea of how to strengthen the likelihood of Vishnan protection in case of Shivan attack. The UEF Council of Elders (and others, like Nagari-sensitives) seem to know what's going on and what the stakes are, which makes you wonder why they haven't tried to explain this to the GTVA High Command yet.
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I am under the assumption (given the references I found in BP) that the Vishnans are manipulating events to subvert humanity and the Vasudans, and that Nagari sensitive GTVA officers may be aware of it in some form, given the dialogue on the fourth mission (I saw what you did there!) you hear from GTVA characters, from that same mission, I am also inclined to believe that the vish and shivs are afraid of the Humans becoming the new "Ancients."
Which leads me to Ubuntu, this is exactly what they want, to reduce the power to wage war on the GTVA and make them weaker, easier to manipulate, enthrall or destroy, the GTVA is aware of this and it's why they are so fearful of Ubuntu, they see it as the end of the Human race, so long as the Shivans (and Vishnans) exist the GTVA will never be safe, lower guard for one moment and it's over.
Also I do believe the Byrne's super awesome project is a device to communicate with the Shivans/Vishnans (given the Cargo container & the GTVA retrieval squad on "For the Wrong Reasons")
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i was under the impression the BP vishnans and shivans were trying to cultivate an advanced spieces not prevent its creation (but to achieve their goal there would have to be some moments where they beat thier target down so their target can build itsself back up)
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i was under the impression the BP vishnans and shivans were trying to cultivate an advanced spieces not prevent its creation (but to achieve their goal there would have to be some moments where they beat thier target down so their target can build itsself back up)
Something doesn't add up... it's something about the Vishnans and Shivans being sort of... a Great Council (that is of course, paying attention to the dialogue in Universal Truth, not knowing if there were/are other races in the Council), and the "you failed Good Luck" side's PVE dead as sand... With the Shivans banished from that side of space, heaven knows if they're going to ransack some other dimension (I'm not going to go to the damn Fringe Effect, because that doesn't apply here and I fell for that by Journey's End).
Besides, isn't humanity typically the wild card of the galaxy?
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@SaltyWaffles
firstly the UEF is anti-military. The key is the difference in how the 3 regions develop both prior to and after the original node collapse upto the start of the war. With iirc the 2nd and 3rd having to deal more with GEFs, pirates an the like they have become the kind of followers that attends the temple when required, they pay it lip service when needed, but dont really live the faith like they should. The first on the other hand due to having an easier time of it in general and their proximity to the Elders are the loyal followers both of the elders and and the Ubuntu Ideology. The fleet in general is there as a necessity for maintaining social order rather than to defend against external threats, hence the controversy of building the Solaris class in the first place, indeed much of WiH is riddled with Lapore trying to reconcile Ubuntu's pacifist nature with the slaughter of war she is taking part in.
The Vishans vs Shivans are a bit too much of an unknown to properly judge, they seem to be a benevolent entity trying to develop the Terrans and Vasudans through encouragement, but AoA gives us little evidence either way. They along with the Shivans seem to be part of a master plan to develop the Terrans, Vasudans and possibly others to fill a certain role in the universe but what that is remains to be seen. As for the Shivans the last mission before the player returns to their proper universe would indicate that the Shivans are also trying to shape the Terrans and Vasudans but by testing them in war.
It will be interesting to see if either show up in ptII and what roll they play if they do
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I think now is a good time to remind you all that what we saw and heard about the Vishnans in AoA was all just how they portrayed themselves to Sam. It might not be wise to take them at face value or trust them so readily....
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even if the vishnans are in this for some nefarious plot to harvest the physic essence of man or some other plot all the UEF need is to get either the vishnans or the shivans to generally attack the sol system or the next system over so they can get in on the gtva's mutual enemy relationship between the the terrans and the vasudans
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I think now is a good time to remind you all that what we saw and heard about the Vishnans in AoA was all just how they portrayed themselves to Sam. It might not be wise to take them at face value or trust them so readily....
Considering how powerful the Shivans are, how extant they are, and how vulnerable the GTVA would still remain well into the future, I'd definitely put my lot in with the guys who by and large helped us out many times in a row in big ways, and went through a lot of effort to act largely benevolently for a bunch of relative strangers. They even defended terrans and vasudans (morally/politically/militarily) in a direct and pivotal confrontation with the Shivans. And they seem to be the only race capable of fully matching the Shivans.
So sure, I don't exactly trust them all that much, but given the situation, being a valuable pawn with the protection of several queens is much more preferable to being a lone knight against several queens. While it's technically possible that the Vishnans were deceiving us all along, all consequences and direct evidence be damned, I still rather doubt that the Vishnans have particularly bad and strict goals in mind for the terran and vasudan races.
Maybe the Vishnans have an Assimilation Plot in mind for the allied races--making them into a new, non-artificial subspace stack entity to fulfill the role of the Brahmans of old. Assuming that this is not a desirable outcome, it seems like it would still be dependent on the GTVA population being willing and ready for the process in the first place. I obviously don't know with any kind of certainty, but the Vishnans don't seem to be the type to force "enlightenment" on a race that believes itself to not be "ready" for something like that.
Besides, if the GTVA/Tev leadership believes itself incapable of checking the potential spread and growth of Ubuntu culture, even with the invincible and overt points of the Second Shivan Incursion/Capella and whatever evidence the Tev government has on the dangers of "enlightenment"/being highly obedient to the Vishnans, then Tev culture absolutely sucks, along with its seeming lack of adaptability, common sense (Let relations between terrans and vasudans whither to cold, barely friendly levels--even in the joint government? Great idea! Mutual defense, technology/expertise collaboration, and economic aid are totally useless anyway!), and political competence.
Oh, and if the Vasudan culture is quite similar to Ubuntu culture, wouldn't it give the Tev leadership pause about beliefs of pacifism/fragility regarding Ubuntu culture? Seeing as vasudan culture is evidently very durable and still quite good on defense?
It's been said the "middle ground" needs to be reached, what exactly would that be?
Since the UEF wants independence, wouldn't "middle ground" involve lessening that independence? What would be acceptable to both the UEF and GTVA?
It's entirely up to the GTVA leadership at this point, which is the problem. They seem to be hell-bent on utterly decimating the UEF's governments, culture, political systems, and any kind of independence. That's kind of approaching unconditional surrender. In other words, the GTVA high command won't settle for anything that's even remotely "middle ground", and to top it all off, they're the total, sole, and unfettered aggressor in this conflict.
Which kind of infuriates me a bit; this goes beyond ends justifying means, it's downright impractical and immoral. For one, if Tev culture and political capability is really that bad, then what makes them think they can wipe out Ubuntu culture and secure the loyalty--politically, culturally, economically, and militarily--after giving every reason for Sol's population to hate the Tevs? The NTF Rebellion would be nothing compared to this; if the Fedayeen are any indication, the GTVA can't succeed in truly containing any influence from Sol, and the cause for this rebellion/dissent is vastly more potent and relatable than NTF ideals. Combine that with the assassination incident, and you've got a potential catastrophe that the Tev leadership seems (or believes itself to be) incapable of effectively preventing.
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I personally think that given the amount of work that the writer(s) put into blue planet, the wording in the Nebula mission from hell might imply that it's possible that someone who has achieved full Nagari potential could work like a singularity and "absorb" the rest of a species and keep them bound into the union sought after by the Vishnans.
I believe Laporte can do this to the human race and the Jester might be able to do so as well for the Vasudans.
It's possible the Shivans DON'T want them to replace the Brahmans since given the Great War and the Capellan incident the "ascended" Humans and Vasudans might replace them with something else and destroy them, though they might see the Ubuntu Humans as someone they could work with.
I think the Vishnans are trying to force the issue (given the comments on the developers commentary) because whatever the "Deepness that stalks the cold roads" is, It's become a significant threat to to them and/or life in the Universe(s.)
And maybe the Deepness is the Ancients. :nervous: