Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Gregster2k on August 04, 2012, 08:03:51 pm
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Long post alert (TLDR: What if Sol went to hell?) - The following is a tentative 'universe outline', feel free to steal it and make a mod out of it.
I've never really posted or shared this yet but figured I should seeing as I'm not apt to go take this mod idea and actually create it (well maybe, but not yet).
I noticed a common theme. All of the current to date campaigns involving a return to Sol involve returning to a Sol that is in some state of, well, normalcy. In BP you have the UEF, in Inferno the EA, and not sure what Blackwater Operations was going to do.
In any event, I remember reading the FS2 tech room about Earth and noticed that nobody had explored the question of returning to a Sol which had collapsed into utter anarchy.
The premise is that the GTVA returns to Sol to find a Sol system ungoverned.
Warlords, factions, civilian militias, pirate bands and individual nation states now rule the system. Remnant forces of the old GTA who still believe in the Shivans' return maintain a base on the outer edge of the system near Saturn, but are under constant attack by raiders looking for resources.
The GTVA enters the system to find a cacophony of communications traffic, a hundred nations all screaming to be heard and sided with. Shocked by the state of affairs in Sol, the GTVA moves to establish itself as an enclave of stability, only to find itself under attack by independent factions who refuse GTVA rule. The player is thrust into a climate of anarchy and chaos.
To restore order, the GTVA adopts a plan to rally people to their cause by becoming the most desirable faction to join in the system, offering relief aid and supplies previously unavailable to Sol ... so long as the receiving factions ratify BETAC and join the GTVA.
As the campaign progresses, you are Alpha 1, sent in to preserve the treaties being signed and help protect the GTVA's efforts. Your primary antagonists will be:
1. Pirates and other fiercely independent militias refusing to join the GTVA
2. Nations which refuse to join the GTVA
3. Deceitful groups which 'accept' BETAC in an attempt to hijack GTVA ships and equipment, or Groups which join the GTVA and then change their mind later
4. Anti-Vasudan forces attacking the "V" in GTVA
5. ????
Your primary objectives "in this theatre:"
1. Protect all civilian lives per BETAC.
2. Protect all GTVA assets.
3. Reduce strife in Sol system.
Common themes:
- Prepare to get backstabbed a lot. Trust nobody.
- How do you identify a civilian vs. a combatant?
- How do you win over people when all you've got are comm channels, supplies, and guns? (answer: all of the above - you just have to figure out what they want)
Oh, one more thing. I got just one rule for this "Crapsack Sol" idea:
NO SHIVANS. Having them just makes it too easy to get everybody to rally under the GTVA's banner.
On the other hand, the SOC using FAKE Shivans to scare people into joining... heheh :drevil:
Do discuss this idea - I'd like to read the comments.
I just figure, we've seen so many campaigns with 'stable' Sol systems, it'd be interesting to see one where the place is 'homewrecked' and restoring order is like pulling teeth.
</end ramble>
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That sounds like really intriguing idea. And I feel like it also makes Sol sound a whole lot more "alive" and "vibrant", actually.
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The #5 might be individuals who believe that humanity should not have a large governing body at all. These anarchists cover the entire spectrum of moral integrity (to make you feel bad about having to shoot the ones that really do have a brighter future to offer, plus to question established stereotypes), and like any other human are willing to band together with whom they serve common goals with.
This honestly seems like the sort of campaign that should force the player to make difficult decisions, and branch on occasion, perhaps with an option to outright defect later in the game (possibly taking a significant chunk of the GTVA fleet with you).
Another theme to explore is that the GTVA might very well be on the far end of authoritarian government, and one doesn't have to go from that extreme to wanton chaos on the streets.
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A concept myself and I am sure others have chewed over privately and tbh based on my own thoughts you have a good starting point here.
One point I think would need sorting early on is what is stopping the GTVA just steam rolling the system under pure weight of ships and troops, is it going to be a BP style limitations on node transit, perhaps the reason is political in some way or maybe something else I haven't thought of.
some areas of your post that might want rethinking:
"The GTVA enters the system to find a cacophony of communications traffic, a hundred nations all screaming to be heard and sided with.". personally I would expect factions near the node to be aware faster than factions based further away, also while some factions would start dialogue quickly, others might take some time, perhaps days to consider what the GTVA arrival means, if they should respond, and if so how. so yes comm traffic would be busy due to the multiple factions but not ridiculous. Which leads into the second point I think want reconsidering
"a hundred nations all screaming to be heard and sided with" While heavy fragmentation is a valid scenario, them all being of equal enough terms to call out for an audience is probably not so likely, not to mention would be a potential story writing nightmare, you would probably be better introducing a system of a small number of major factions opposed by their incompatible motivators, then allied with them as appropriate are masses of smaller gangs, warlords, freedom fighters, mercenaries, GTA loyalists, etc. While some of these smaller groups might have the guts or legitimate freedom to contact the GTVA without direct approval from their sponsor factions, most probably wont and will either follow their sponsor or break away to do their own thing. Also the many sponsored little factions give additional avenues for betral for example the GTA might provisionally accept the GTVA but a group allied to the GTA might still carry T-V war hatreds and so attack vasudan ships regardless.
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I'd also expand a bit on the hatred for Vasuands.
Some people might just hate them for the T-V war, loosing family members ect... but I'd also introduce a new faction that hates the Vasudans, because they blame them for the Shivan's appearance.
The same could also be done with people hating the GTA and Vasudans equally, for bringing down the Shivan's wrath on mankind, because they believe if the war had ended much sooner, the Shivans would never have appeard to "punish the destroyers".
Wther this is actually true would be irrelevant. What matters is that this particular faction(s) believe it strong enough to make war over it or at least refuse any kind of contact with both the GTA remnants and the GTVA.
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That's a cool idea, I like it. You can explore modern day themes of terrorism and the "soft" nature of warfare very well in this setting. Nice :)
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A problem I see with this is that it assumes (like Blue Planet and possibly more mods) that the capital of the GTA (Now GTVA) MUST have the weakest military presence of the GTA and lack contingencies.
As if the GTA never prepared for the possibility of the nodes collapsing, something which is well established in canon to happen naturally (which might account for why all the node maps change per game.)
That plus the fact there's FEKING space pirates implies the GTA can't even police a single system properly.
The end result ends up implying that the GTA was the most incompetent government body in existence on the universe and does not deserve to survive in an era in which proper handling of a single star system is mandatory if you want a body able to govern as many systems as it had in Freespace canon.
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Problem is space is big. No government should be expected to entirely an entire system, much less several. The mobility of jump, coupled with light lag, coupled with space is big, ensures that it's very easy to hide, and very difficult to patrol.
Another thing is that these scenarios presume that the GTA was largely unified because of the t-v war, and the sudden cutoff from the war made it so that what I am sure is the massive military industrial complex in sol was unnecessary. Though it's a good point that we don't see any contingencies for changes in the node network... One thing is that they could've not anticipated all 3 nodes to sol collapsing at the same time
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A problem I see with this is that it assumes (like Blue Planet and possibly more mods) that the capital of the GTA (Now GTVA) MUST have the weakest military presence of the GTA and lack contingencies.
As if the GTA never prepared for the possibility of the nodes collapsing, something which is well established in canon to happen naturally (which might account for why all the node maps change per game.)
That plus the fact there's FEKING space pirates implies the GTA can't even police a single system properly.
The end result ends up implying that the GTA was the most incompetent government body in existence on the universe and does not deserve to survive in an era in which proper handling of a single star system is mandatory if you want a body able to govern as many systems as it had in Freespace canon.
I think something you have missed here is that the node collapse represented a sudden fundamental shift in both the political and economic situation of the system, we suddenly go from a system which has evolved into the political, economic and cultural centre of a multi system Terran alliance into the same system without the access to the outside so trade in resources suddenly stops and communication with loved ones out of the system suddenly stops. The system is possibly population heavy for it's ability to produce food due to it being the hub of terran space politically and culturally so probably imports food goods from outside to make up the difference. The system might also lack resources gathering infrastructure for certain materials for that population size as resources were probably imported from systems where they where easier to obtain them. In addition the GTA economy was literally shot to pieces during the T-V and Great War and was running a total war economy so the resource distribution and usage in sol would be far from optimum for the shift in circumstances, ie in a system like Sol which would have a massive industrial base that would mean ship and weapons construction rather than housing, resource exploitation and agriculture. Another thing is that my understanding is that nodes have long and possibly predictable life cycles (depending on Terran knowledge) so a natural collapse might have been a long time away reducing the need for such plans.
an equivalent to the node collapse on Earth would be something like a natural disaster that wipes out all but 1 major capital city of the developed world which is untouched and just has a little of the surrounding land intact. believe me everything in that city would go bad and quickly.
{tl/dr}
In short you could try to prepare for it but in reality it would be very difficult and likely to go wrong anyway, also the GTA was likely more worried by the more imminent and real threat of extinction from armed and angry aliens.
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Nice idea. I guess the reason why no one wants a doomed Sol is because that is us you're talking about. If it was the Vasudans or another humanized planet, that would be different. You do have to explain why the GTVA doesn't just take over the system by force. Maybe reverse engineering the Knossos has problems and keeps us from sending "unlimited" ships through with ours. Also, when we do turn on our Knossos, there is no guarantee that the subspace node on the Sol side would be in the same place (right by earth according to FS1 cut-scene). That could help with not being detected because whoever is looking will be looking in the wrong place.
I would have few space faring factions. Since it seems like the GTA had a good grip on all ships/weapons, it would be difficult to say that a bunch of groups either got their hands on ships or broke away. A few, yes, but not a lot. Also since most of the fleet wasn't in Sol at the time (that's the feeling I get anyways), there would be limited ships available right away. The major power brokers would be the shipyards and manufacturing centers.
I would move away from BETAC having a major roll in this campaign. BETAC seems too political for anarchy. The pirates and/or other factions probably wouldn't base their loyalties on BETAC, but instead what they think the GTVA really is. Also, going out of your way to protect civilians that don't truely belong to the GTVA seems weird. Sure, don't fire on them, but trying to save your allies' civvies' butts because they wander into a battlefield?
Let me say this before I shut up: how about a campain kinda what you are saying but the character (please can we have someone other than Alpha 1?) is fighting for one of the factions (maybe the still loyal GTA) and the GTVA doesn't factor into this? You are trying to restore order in a chaotic Sol system that is still cut off from the rest of the galaxy. Hmmm?
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Well, we still have Alphas 2 to 3 and the rest of the Greek alphabet.
You could be referred to as Sampi 3!
But I really like you last idea Megawolf...
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Problem is space is big. No government should be expected to entirely an entire system, much less several. The mobility of jump, coupled with light lag, coupled with space is big, ensures that it's very easy to hide, and very difficult to patrol.
Subspace mobility cuts both ways, providing instant reinforcement and communication to anyone under attack. At no point in FS1 or FS2 is the ability to disrupt this demonstrated thought it would have provided great advantage several times; the NTF attack on Enif Station comes to mind.
The Sol scenario is predicated on really only one variable: how quickly and how well First Fleet managed to control the sources of combat spacecraft hulls. The most likely, if least interesting, answer is that they did so rapidly and without screwups, because the GTVA was at war and these were valuable assets that would be actively protected during that war.
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A problem I see with this is that it assumes (like Blue Planet and possibly more mods) that the capital of the GTA (Now GTVA) MUST have the weakest military presence of the GTA and lack contingencies.
As if the GTA never prepared for the possibility of the nodes collapsing, something which is well established in canon to happen naturally (which might account for why all the node maps change per game.)
That plus the fact there's FEKING space pirates implies the GTA can't even police a single system properly.
The end result ends up implying that the GTA was the most incompetent government body in existence on the universe and does not deserve to survive in an era in which proper handling of a single star system is mandatory if you want a body able to govern as many systems as it had in Freespace canon.
I seriously doubt they had many of their ships stationed in Sol, due to the war, and due to the Lucifer coming. Perhaps a destroyer or two to distract it being it, while they try to evacuate if the need arises.
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Let me say this before I shut up: how about a campain kinda what you are saying but the character (please can we have someone other than Alpha 1?) is fighting for one of the factions (maybe the still loyal GTA) and the GTVA doesn't factor into this? You are trying to restore order in a chaotic Sol system that is still cut off from the rest of the galaxy. Hmmm?
This is what I wanted to say. You don't even need the GTVA returning; you could have plenty of fun just with this hectic soup of crazy different factions. Hell, you could take it even farther and say that the Sol node just never gets reopened, so after centuries of isolation all kinds of bizarre groups, cultures, and religions spring up. With spaceships.
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And in the end they are all wiped out by a crazy religious leader with the intent of dooming Sol's population as punishment for their sins, you play as a pilot in one of the last surviving capital ships trying to get enough civilians out for a... Sol Exodus.
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Calling shotgun as king of Titan :yes:
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I'd stick with the idea of chaotic Sol. Two or three major factions (ex-GTA collapsed after nods collapsed) fighting over Sol. Maybe not a real fights like we've seen between GTVA and NTF but rather short bursts of border line violence plus lots of political fights. Few "good guys" pirates like Han Solo and some other minor smugglers just wandering around the system.
I thought of beginning like this:
A fighter ("ye old Alpha One") from a cruiser group on a recon mission (few Leviathan Class Ships or so) that remains unnoticed by the main factions. Only the well informed pirates discover that the nod has been reactivated and someones coming back home. After some time spent on scouting the recon mission calls for a backup to stabilize the chaotic, corrupt Homeworld. That calls in for a Hecate class ship and maybe few Orions. This one can't remain unnoticed. So the fights between three hostile factions are set aside to confront with the newcomers. At first they talk, like the politicians like to talk - a lot. Then someone gets nervous and fires the first shot (one side or another - doesn't matter). GTVA remains cold blooded. They give ex-GTA a warning that if they don't stop this conflict GTVA will use force to take over and reestablish the only legitimate government of the System.
That's all I got on my mind ;)
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Heh, if anybody remembers, Dekker's Dodgy Mod that I agreed to work on a loooooooong time ago had sort of a similar plot written by headdie.
I'm pretty sure the mod is dead, and sort of doomed from the start, but some good stuff came from it at least. With headdie's permission I'll post his outline.
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Grief I had forgotten about that lol.
here you go:
Sol is in a state of civil war, the GTA is in tatters holding onto Earth (just), Venus and a few rocks in the asteroid belt. Two successor states are in the mix one based on Mars the other out of the terraformed moons of Jupiter.
The GTA has become transfixed in the 'Glory Days' of the T-V war when it was perceived to have power. Most of the public knowledge about the Great War has been suppressed and much of the current fighting generation has no knowledge about what happened, why the node collapsed or even that the Shivan war happened at all. The public has access to only very controlled media which is saying that the GTA is winning the wars against the successor states and correspondents between the military and their families is heavily censored. In truth the economy is shattered, they are nearly out of material resources, technical innovation has nearly ceased with no radical new designs or technologies unveiled beyond a few years after the node collapse and are often on the loosing end of most armed encounters. Earth is ravaged and uninhabitable outside of carefully maintained habitation structures. The GTA government refuse to accept the validity of the other two states and seek to destroy them any way they can which has resulted in acts of terror. Militarily the GTA is T-V/Pre ST Great War era with a few custom designs from the period up to about 5 years after the node collapse. In short the GTA has become the twisted, backward, evil little runt that thinks it should be king.
The Mars faction is high tech and operates in a generally sophisticated society. The Martians have avoided storming Earth out of reverence for its place in human history but are unhappy with the state Earth is in. Public rumour suggests that an assault might be being planned but there is mixed public opinion on this. Mars has become the new Earth with sophisticated Terraforming and planet management technologies maintaining a comfortable environment over most of the surface without the need for any personal life support equipment. Diplomatically Mars is maintaining a mostly defensive war against the GTA even allowing limited civilian trade to stop the population of Earth starving, In regards to Jupiter no treaty exists meaning there are occasional 'border' skirmishes and 'incidents' involving civilian traffic but little planned military action. Militarily they maintain a small but advanced fleet in order to keep their material and financial economies stable and have proven enough to keep them safe for the time being. The Han-Ronald had their HQ and principle Fighter Factory based on Mars.
The Jupiter Moons are a proud and industrial lot who have a rough and ready society balanced with a code of respect for one and another. During the T-V and Great wars Jupiter was the hub of the remaining mining activity in Sol giving them access to a large material wealth when they went independent. After the Node collapsed the Vasudan Survivors settled in the Jupiter Colonies bringing most of their fighters with them also making for a small Vasudan population within the Jupiter area. In regards to the GTA, Jupiter see themselves as the eventual successors and don't see a place for an independent Mars but don't want to initiate a 3 way war which they think might see the GTA and Mars working together against them. Technologically they are a little more advanced than the GTA and have a significant advantage in engine and warhead technologies. Skirmishes between GTA and Jupiter forces are frequent and bloody. At the point BSG arrives Jupiter is close to probing Earth orbit but has been unable to make the most recent push stick.
In terms of the size of ships
-Fighters and bombers are in abundance,
-Cruisers are fairly common
-Corvette sized ships have started appearing recently as the centrepiece of ‘larger’ formations
-Destroyers are extremely rare mostly consisting of retrofits (or not) of whatever was in system when the node collapsed which have survived this long. Their construction is considered by all to be too expensive materially, take to long and take too much to maintain.
The early days of the conflict between the three the fighting forces consisted of the separate formations of the 1st fleet which aligned themselves with the local regions.
1st Battle group defended Earth and the GTA government.
2nd Battle group protected Mars with its large population and shipyards.
3rd battle group protected Jupiter and the various mining operations that were controlled from there.
4th Battle group defended the Sol jump node and the trade centres near by. The 4th disappeared during the breakdown of GTA rule and its present location remains a mystery though legend says they are waiting to greet to GTA when they re-establish the node from the other side.
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...I think we need to get Dodgy again.
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I dont about anyone else, but I really like happy ending.
Like, Sol is fine, everyones happy.
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Open to all. It's a hedonistic ungoverned beast ;)
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I always felt that limiting a campaign to take place in a single system severely cripples the possibilities in mission design. Without the need to use nodes, any ship can just jump out at any time. To counteract this limitation the BP team decided to add jump gates in sol to their canon thus allowing stuff like escort missions.
My idea was that while Sol is obviously isolated from the GTVA it does not necessarily have to be isolated entirely. Say a new subspace node popped up in Sol leading to a batch of new, uncharted before systems. These systems would have been hastily explored and colonized by the resource-hungry factions in Sol. I feel like this could add better dynamic to any campaign based around Sol politics. Nodes are not only good for mission design but also make for good plot elements.
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I always felt that limiting a campaign to take place in a single system severely cripples the possibilities in mission design. Without the need to use nodes, any ship can just jump out at any time. To counteract this limitation the BP team decided to add jump gates in sol to their canon thus allowing stuff like escort missions.
Wrong. In FS, ships are always (theoretically) free to jump to safety. Star systems are big places, and getting away from a threat is therefore always possible by just jumping in a random direction for a couple light minutes.
In BP, we used stuff like drive recharge times in order to give a good reason as to why a given ship has to hang around for a period of time; in other cases, we put the player into a position where jumping away would mean a mission failure, because there's something that needs to be protected or destroyed at the mission site.
There is no fundamental difference between a campaign set at various places in a single system, and a campaign that travels all over the nodemap. In both cases, the mission designer needs to find a reason why the ships in the mission are where they are.
Nodes are not only good for mission design but also make for good plot elements.
This is an unsupported assertion. Nodes, by themselves, only present the opportunity to do two kinds of missions, node assault or node defense. Their plot value is defined by what is happening on the other end; this is not fundamentally different to the question "what happens in <planetary body> orbit?" or "what is in that asteroid field?"
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Mostly I'm thinking about "Escort to node" type missions that are abundant in FS and fan made campaigns. I felt as if the jump gates were added to the BPverse to allow these types of missions. They have better pacing then "defend ship until drives recharge" type missions because the distance to the node/jump gate indicated mission progress.
"Node attack" and "Node defense" type missions aren't really that characteristic. You can replace the node with basically any other static object(disabled ship, space station) and it won't really effect the missions flow.
Nodes are good plot elements because they make the most logical border zones and frontlines in a setting were strategic positioning is mostly meaningless due to instant travel.
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Mostly I'm thinking about "Escort to node" type missions that are abundant in FS and fan made campaigns. I felt as if the jump gates were added to the BPverse to allow these types of missions. They have better pacing then "defend ship until drives recharge" type missions because the distance to the node/jump gate indicated mission progress.
"Node attack" and "Node defense" type missions aren't really that characteristic. You can replace the node with basically any other static object(disabled ship, space station) and it won't really effect the missions flow.
Nodes are good plot elements because they make the most logical border zones and frontlines in a setting were strategic positioning is mostly meaningless due to instant travel.
And yet you cant limit the action to the nodes. To take control of a system you have to control the points of interest in the system and eliminate hostile forces so once the node is taken then deep space installations, defence outpost, trading outposts, planets all become potential combat sites, indeed because these places are generally populated there is a human aspect there that can be exploited to create and change emotional atmosphere that isnt an option with a node.
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I dont about anyone else, but I really like happy ending.
Like, Sol is fine, everyones happy.
I like a happy endings too, but given the situation after the destruction of the Lucifer Sol would be a mess:
- connection to the colonies was lost, with no knowledge if the colonies were destroyed by the Shivans or the Vasudan (remember, 14 Years of war...)
- no knowing that the Shivans have been defeated the should still consider them a threat
- destroying the Subspace node could have had some devastating effect to the Moons and Planets of the Sol system: Earthquakes, Storms, ect...
- great economical trouble because of the lost Subspace Node
If there is no Anarchy or fighting Successor States chances are high that some kind of militaristic, xenophobe and totalitarian regime is ruling the Sol system.
They ruled the last 30 Years with an iron fist, building Ships and trained every citizen for the day then the Shivans return...
...and than one day the humans of the GTVA return and tell them they are in League with mankind's former Arch enemy (and even suppressed with them the pro- Terran NTF Rebellion )
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- connection to the colonies was lost, with no knowledge if the colonies were destroyed by the Shivans or the Vasudan (remember, 14 Years of war...)
- no knowing that the Shivans have been defeated the should still consider them a threat
Alpha Centauri is 4 light years away, and reachable via nodes. Light-speed communication should, therefore, be possible (insert theories about why this hasn't come up in FS2 here).
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If there is no Anarchy or fighting Successor States chances are high that some kind of militaristic, xenophobe and totalitarian regime is ruling the Sol system.
Militaristic is probable, since the best way to keep Sol from breaking up would be to assert control of all military assets. Xenophobic and totalitarian, however, require further evidence before your assertion will be considered well-founded.
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- connection to the colonies was lost, with no knowledge if the colonies were destroyed by the Shivans or the Vasudan (remember, 14 Years of war...)
- no knowing that the Shivans have been defeated the should still consider them a threat
Alpha Centauri is 4 light years away, and reachable via nodes. Light-speed communication should, therefore, be possible (insert theories about why this hasn't come up in FS2 here).
4 years worth of transmission lag is a long time, long enough that current affairs communications traffic is probably pointless and that transmission of sensitive data would be risky because there is no way to guarantee who will receive the data or if the intended recipient government still exists, it kind of asks the question what would be sent in these signals? Also what is the risk factor in data corruption?
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Well, I suppose that something as fundamental as "noone here but us shivans" would be possible to transmit.
As for day-to-day news, those are obviously not going to matter, but general "Hey. We're still alive, and this has been happening" broadcasts? No problemo.
As for data corruption, well, it's a matter of transmission protocol and signal strength. Morse code, to take a particularly low-tech protocol, is very very hard to corrupt, and a civilization capable of weaponizing ****ing antimatter should have no difficulty at all constructing a rather good transmitter and very good receivers.
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Xenophobic and totalitarian, however, require further evidence before your assertion will be considered well-founded.
They fought a 14 Year War against the alien Vasudans, and were almost whipped out by the even more alien Shivans.
If there is something like a reason to be xenophobic that's one.
It also gives the ordinary citizen an external foe, that is handy to keep them in line and united.
"Don't hate your brothers on Mars and Jupiter Moons even we have to send them food, the Shivans blew of the node, not they"
And all militaristic systems must become sooner or later totalitarian to justify the spending on weapons and reduced personal freedom.
Militaristic in a sense like North Korea now or the former states of the Warsaw Pact.
Now enough money to satisfy each citizens needs beyond the basic ones.
An civil economy seriously hindered by not enough investments in maintenance.
On the other side lots of resources are spend on Rearming and Weapon Research.
Almost everyone is affected by the draft and regular exercises.
Even the kids getting basic military training in school like educating in shooting and throwing hand grenades.
You can't keep this level of pressure up without becoming totalitarian.
"Anyone who questions our course in handling the dooming thread of the Shivans is a traitor to mankind. DO You question it, citizen ?" ;)
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how are we defining "militaristic systems"
Government maintaining a military = all but 2 or 3 nations on present day Earth
Government spending or more per GDP on the military than the global average = USA is the top spender on the lists found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures)
Government using the military for Law and order = Most governments had provision for it
Government Head with military ties = Royal families often have members who have served, even the UK, while the Queen hasnt served, her husband has.
Military Dictatorship = yes the temptation is to go down the totalitarian route, especially given the traditional military organisation, but it is not forced
Stratocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratocracy) = No distinction between military and government functions, potentially can be a democracy where public office can only be held by former or serving military personnel so would be more stable than a military dictatorship as the populous still has the feeling that they have some say.
Military junta = sits somewhere between military dictatorship and Stratocracy again temptation is there but not forced
Warsaw Pact.
Soviet version of NATO, ok more political interference from Moscow. And while even in Russia there was a questionable distinction between civilian and military aspects of government it was there and it was technically for the most part a civilian government
Almost everyone is affected by the draft and regular exercises.
Democracies have done this too, in the UK, the draft started for WWII didn't finish until 1960. This was also one of the periods of the longest life expectancy in the UK
Even the kids getting basic military training in school like educating in shooting and throwing hand grenades.
dont know of any countries where there is or has been training like this at school level, there are child soldier in some African regions but that is not done through the schools there by my understanding
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Happy ending:
Pilots who destroyed the lucifer realize how bad war is. Most likely, they'll be praised for defeating it then be given great long speech where they say, " war is bad, peace and unity is the only solution!" Large, rumbling standing ovation is given, and then we all live peacefully with occasional crime and misdemeanors.
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They fought a 14 Year War against the alien Vasudans, and were almost whipped out by the even more alien Shivans.
Neither of which has been an issue in over a generation at the time of FS2. Neither of which was expected, at the end of FS1, to be an issue within the lifetime of a fighter pilot who had just entered the service a few months ago.
Sol doesn't expect to hear from anyone for the next eighty years at least. It could well be longer; this is, after all, The FutureTM.
And all militaristic systems must become sooner or later totalitarian to justify the spending on weapons and reduced personal freedom.
Statement unsupported by evidence; statement furthermore indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of why the Sol government will probably be qualified as militaristic. The goals of the military and the goals of the state will, in all likelihood, be indistinguishable, hence a militaristic government, but those actual goals are to control the production and usage of space-based military hardware, particular fighter and ship hulls, which is not an aggressive goal nor one that necessarily requires the revoking of personal freedoms or anything else you're proposing.
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- connection to the colonies was lost, with no knowledge if the colonies were destroyed by the Shivans or the Vasudan (remember, 14 Years of war...)
Well, by the time of the collapse, the Shivans had destroyed or forced evacuations of most of the colonies. I would be more concerned that you couldn't contact them more than knowing if they are still around.
- no knowing that the Shivans have been defeated the should still consider them a threat
They knew the Lucifer had been destroyed, so that should give them some comfort. Of course, they didn't know what happened to the rest of the Shivan fleet or if there were other Lucifers, so that should give them a state of vigilance, not necessarily one of emergency/anarchy.
- destroying the Subspace node could have had some devastating effect to the Moons and Planets of the Sol system: Earthquakes, Storms, ect...
That makes sense. I mean, the GTVA collapsed two nodes in the Capella system and looked what happened to it...:)
Sol doesn't expect to hear from anyone for the next eighty years at least. It could well be longer; this is, after all, The FutureTM.
Why 80 years? Just a number or what?
Alpha Centauri is 4 light years away, and reachable via nodes. Light-speed communication should, therefore, be possible (insert theories about why this hasn't come up in FS2 here).
From what I understand of FS canon, the two "extra" Sol nodes seen in the FS1 briefings are mistakes or at least made non-canon in FS2. So you can't reach it (if you could it would make this thread pointless). About the light speed communication, I believe that a signal couldn't reach, like others have said. I understand that in RL, EM transmissions dissipate the further they go; that the 70's TV broadcasts we all thought would be reaching aliens by now probably don't make it past the Kuiper Belt/Oort Cloud/whatever else is out there. This has more to do with degradation than corruption.
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Has anybody ever considered what it looked like to the rest of the GTA when the Sol node collapsed?
The last transmissions they got from the fighters were probably something like:
"Hey guys, we're getting pretty close to Sol, but we almost have this puppy killed."
"Hey guys, us again. Just about done here, but Luci is kiiiiind of exiting subspace."
*Silence*
So one of two things happened, as far as the GTA knows. Either the Lucifer exploded half-inside the subspace corridor and collapsed it, something that nobody had any idea was even possible; or it got through (despite it's reactors being disabled) and deployed something that closed the node, something that nobody would know was or wasn't possible.
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Has anybody ever considered what it looked like to the rest of the GTA when the Sol node collapsed?
The last transmissions they got from the fighters were probably something like:
"Hey guys, we're getting pretty close to Sol, but we almost have this puppy killed."
"Hey guys, us again. Just about done here, but Luci is kiiiiind of exiting subspace."
*Silence*
So one of two things happened, as far as the GTA knows. Either the Lucifer exploded half-inside the subspace corridor and collapsed it, something that nobody had any idea was even possible; or it got through (despite it's reactors being disabled) and deployed something that closed the node, something that nobody would know was or wasn't possible.
I've never actually thought about that. I'm sure though, the time it must've taken for the Lucifer to explode after having its last reactor destroyed should be well over the time needed for an Orion to be destroyed. In that span of time, one of the fighters most likely said to command, "We did it!"
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From The Great War techroom entry in FS2 retail :
From the Delta Serpentis system, a squadron launched from the GTD Bastion pursued the Lucifer into the Sol jump node. These fighters and bombers had to destroy the Lucifer's reactors before the superdestroyer extinguished all life on Earth.
According to declassified transmissions, the mission succeeded. However, the explosion of the Lucifer created a subspace cataclysm that collapsed the Sol jump node, severing all contact between Earth and the other systems of Terran-Vasudan space.
So, it is canon that the GTVA knows the Lucy was destroyed.
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Well that's no fun
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Warsaw Pact.
Soviet version of NATO, ok more political interference from Moscow. And while even in Russia there was a questionable distinction between civilian and military aspects of government it was there and it was technically for the most part a civilian government.
Hey! Poland was in Warsaw Pact obviously and it's military part of economy wasn't all we had here. It was rather a margin. (sry for Off-topic)
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For those who are too concerned about a campaign in a single system having "too free" subspace jumping, take a look at "Sol: A history".
In the backstory of that campaign (a very good campaign if you ask me), the Lucifers explostion not only close the nodes themselfs, but it destabilized subspace over the entire system. This resulted in intrasystem jumps being only possible over short distances (and while it wasn't specifically mentioned as far as I remember, I'd imagine it would also reduce the accuracy).
So to get from Earth to Pluto, you had to make a number of small "subspace-hops".... at the beginning anyway. As the campaign progresses, subspace stabilizes slowly untill it's back to normal by the end of the campaign.
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dont know of any countries where there is or has been training like this at school level, there are child soldier in some African regions but that is not done through the schools there by my understanding
The German Democratic Republic has had "Wehreunterricht" (Defence Education) in the curriculum. Including two weeks of a military camp at the age of 16.
They fought a 14 Year War against the alien Vasudans, and were almost whipped out by the even more alien Shivans.
Neither of which has been an issue in over a generation at the time of FS2. Neither of which was expected, at the end of FS1, to be an issue within the lifetime of a fighter pilot who had just entered the service a few months ago.
Hatred against Vasudans was an issue in Freespace 2. Remember the NTF Rebellion ?
And all militaristic systems must become sooner or later totalitarian to justify the spending on weapons and reduced personal freedom.
Statement unsupported by evidence; statement furthermore indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of why the Sol government will probably be qualified as militaristic.
The goals of the military and the goals of the state will, in all likelihood, be indistinguishable, hence a militaristic government, but those actual goals are to control the production and usage of space-based military hardware, particular fighter and ship hulls, which is not an aggressive goal nor one that necessarily requires the revoking of personal freedoms or anything else you're proposing.
A militaristic system places the needs of the military over the needs of their population.
If you want an example, take the North Korean Songun Ideology.
Fighters and Ship hulls need resources. From base materials to work force and money. If you relocate the resources from less important productions to re arming, this will have an effect to personal freedom and personal consume.
If every citizen is working 48 hours a week instead 44 or 40 and donates the earnings (by higher taxes) for re arming the GTA can build more ships. Won't you hesitate to work longer to support the rearming afford citizen ?
The longer work hours free also more workers for the defence industry.
And think of all the resources that goods to the unneeded consume goods. All those new cars, new cell phones, fancy vacations... do you need them really, citizen ?
Won't you agree that those resources are better used for the rearming ?
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dont know of any countries where there is or has been training like this at school level, there are child soldier in some African regions but that is not done through the schools there by my understanding
The German Democratic Republic has had "Wehreunterricht" (Defence Education) in the curriculum. Including two weeks of a military camp at the age of 16.
from what I can tell (and can a German please correct me if I an wrong) but Wehrunterricht was applicable to 15-16 year olds which is not all that shocking when you consider the UK has a full time college for those wanting to enter military service between the end of compulsory education 16 and the legal minimum of 18 (though compulsory education is soon to be 18 here)
They fought a 14 Year War against the alien Vasudans, and were almost whipped out by the even more alien Shivans.
Neither of which has been an issue in over a generation at the time of FS2. Neither of which was expected, at the end of FS1, to be an issue within the lifetime of a fighter pilot who had just entered the service a few months ago.
Hatred against Vasudans was an issue in Freespace 2. Remember the NTF Rebellion ?
and yet the NTF started 30 years after the events of FS1. there will be tension yes but national hostility is not a guarantee.
And all militaristic systems must become sooner or later totalitarian to justify the spending on weapons and reduced personal freedom.
Statement unsupported by evidence; statement furthermore indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of why the Sol government will probably be qualified as militaristic.
The goals of the military and the goals of the state will, in all likelihood, be indistinguishable, hence a militaristic government, but those actual goals are to control the production and usage of space-based military hardware, particular fighter and ship hulls, which is not an aggressive goal nor one that necessarily requires the revoking of personal freedoms or anything else you're proposing.
A militaristic system places the needs of the military over the needs of their population.
If you want an example, take the North Korean Songun Ideology.
can you please define a "militaristic system" because I am still at a loss what you mean.
Fighters and Ship hulls need resources. From base materials to work force and money. If you relocate the resources from less important productions to re arming, this will have an effect to personal freedom and personal consume.
At the point of the node collapse the GTA had been at war for 14 years so flat out military production will probably been the case for over a decade, matters have gotten to the point that "luxury" is not something the average citizen thinks much about. Next how does military spending effect civil liberties
If every citizen is working 48 hours a week instead 44 or 40
why is working hours going up compared to what would have been needed for a wartime economy anyway?
and donates the earnings (by higher taxes) for re arming the GTA can build more ships. Won't you hesitate to work longer to support the rearming afford citizen ?
The longer work hours free also more workers for the defence industry.
And think of all the resources that goods to the unneeded consume goods. All those new cars, new cell phones, fancy vacations... do you need them really, citizen ?
Won't you agree that those resources are better used for the rearming ?
14 years of patriotism takes a lot to undo away especially when there is now a new crisis to build upon it. also dissent comes from the realisation that things can be better. In the world today oppressive governments have the problem that there is a wider world which is impossible to shut out meaning that the population will at some levels always be exposed to more liberal nations. The Unique situation in Sol is that there is no other societies for its members to be exposed to leaving the only source inspiration to be fiction which to to the fact that is is not real is a weak inspiration.
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from what I can tell (and can a German please correct me if I an wrong) but Wehrunterricht was applicable to 15-16 year olds which is not all that shocking when you consider the UK has a full time college for those wanting to enter military service between the end of compulsory education 16 and the legal minimum of 18 (though compulsory education is soon to be 18 here)
And those in GB what don't want to enter military service have also attend to this college ?
The Wehrunterricht was mandatory for every Teenager in the GDR, while this British college was specifically for Teenagers what want to enter later the military service.
can you please define a "militaristic system" because I am still at a loss what you mean.
A system that gives the needs of the military a higher priority than the needs of the population.
In most cases it also promotes military virtues as virtues for each citizen.
why is working hours going up compared to what would have been needed for a wartime economy anyway?
The question is why the GTA should change from wartime economy to a peace time economy after the collapse of the jump node.
If the closing of the jump node has catastrophic side effects, keeping the war time economy "for the duration of the crisis" sounds not to be a bad idea.
14 years of patriotism takes a lot to undo away especially when there is now a new crisis to build upon it. also dissent comes from the realisation that things can be better. In the world today oppressive governments have the problem that there is a wider world which is impossible to shut out meaning that the population will at some levels always be exposed to more liberal nations. The Unique situation in Sol is that there is no other societies for its members to be exposed to leaving the only source inspiration to be fiction which to to the fact that is is not real is a weak inspiration.
I have the same opinion, that's the reason why i think that Sol won't end up in a complete Anarchy or warring factions.
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from what I can tell (and can a German please correct me if I an wrong) but Wehrunterricht was applicable to 15-16 year olds which is not all that shocking when you consider the UK has a full time college for those wanting to enter military service between the end of compulsory education 16 and the legal minimum of 18 (though compulsory education is soon to be 18 here)
And those in GB what don't want to enter military service have also attend to this college ?
The Wehrunterricht was mandatory for every Teenager in the GDR, while this British college was specifically for Teenagers what want to enter later the military service.
Here in Austria every able male citizen has to go though some kind of service period. For some people that means civil service (driving ambulene, caring for the old, ect.), but for most men that means six month of military service. Civil service is hard to get into, pays less and lasts longer than the military service.
While my country is currently in the process of abolishing this system in favour or a professional military, at the moment it is still in place.
The only people exempted from this are those that are judged unsuitable due to medical reasons and women (but only in so far that they are not obligated to serve, but can do so voluntarily).
Despite that, Austria is definatly not a militaristic country... quite the contrary. As far as fighting power goes, our military is pretty much laughable, though our pioneer corps is respected for their expertise in helping out in catastrophy recovery and such (according to the news anyway). Furthermore we have absolute neutrality as part of our countries constitution and thus we haven't entered any war since this was put in place at the end of WW2 (except as part of the rebuilding and keeping the peace AFTER the fighting stopped, but that pretty much all over the world).
So obligatoy military service is definatly not an indicator of wether a country/faction is militaristic or not.
Either way I'd be more worried about how totalitarian and mercyless a faction is, than not how militaristic. Even if the military is in charge of a faction, they can still be benevolent rulers (unlikely as that may be), especially if that particular military is controlled not by a single overall commander, but by an admirality council or something similar.
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from what I can tell (and can a German please correct me if I an wrong) but Wehrunterricht was applicable to 15-16 year olds which is not all that shocking when you consider the UK has a full time college for those wanting to enter military service between the end of compulsory education 16 and the legal minimum of 18 (though compulsory education is soon to be 18 here)
And those in GB what don't want to enter military service have also attend to this college ?
The Wehrunterricht was mandatory for every Teenager in the GDR, while this British college was specifically for Teenagers what want to enter later the military service.
and military service was compulsory until 1960. So far you have only come up with the one example where the government has made it a mandatory thing that children are taught in a school, and even then it was abolished after a fairly short period of time IIRC.
can you please define a "militaristic system" because I am still at a loss what you mean.
A system that gives the needs of the military a higher priority than the needs of the population.
In most cases it also promotes military virtues as virtues for each citizen.
and yet that does not in itself cause a problem, A strong military means lots of government spending to pay the soldiers and construct/maintain facilities and equipment. the soldier's pay goes into the civilian economy because even if every meal is provided by the military the soldiers still buy "luxury" items such as fashionable/performance cars,go on holiday, treat loved ones when they are on leave. the construction and maintenance helps the civilian economy because the bulk of construction/maintenance work for both facilities and equipment is done by civilian contractors though there is usually an exception for weapons which are maintained by military personnel using civilian made parts.
why is working hours going up compared to what would have been needed for a wartime economy anyway?
The question is why the GTA should change from wartime economy to a peace time economy after the collapse of the jump node.
If the closing of the jump node has catastrophic side effects, keeping the war time economy "for the duration of the crisis" sounds not to be a bad idea.
so I ask again why are working hours changing?
14 years of patriotism takes a lot to undo away especially when there is now a new crisis to build upon it. also dissent comes from the realisation that things can be better. In the world today oppressive governments have the problem that there is a wider world which is impossible to shut out meaning that the population will at some levels always be exposed to more liberal nations. The Unique situation in Sol is that there is no other societies for its members to be exposed to leaving the only source inspiration to be fiction which to to the fact that is is not real is a weak inspiration.
I have the same opinion, that's the reason why i think that Sol won't end up in a complete Anarchy or warring factions.
This is where a little imagination comes in and where a story writer has a lot of room to play with, for example
Q. What is the state of remaining exploitable resources in the system?
A. We have no canon info, if the story writer describes a situation where most of Sol's resources which are exploitable with the technology setting there could be shortages in the average person's ability to obtain essential items which will cause discontent
Q. How has the node collapse effected travel in sol?
A. We have no canon info, if the big players were heavily reliant on inter system travel then they will be in trouble, if they collapse then there will be difficulty in moving people and materials where they need to be
I mentioned fiction as a weak motivator but if that work of fiction inspires the right person then they could be motivated to try and change things. and I could go on and there are strong arguments for both sides of the coin.