Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: sigtau on August 29, 2012, 08:30:55 pm
-
Brought this up in IRC earlier, but it received no attention, so I'll whore for attention here. :p
What if we were able to take all of the mainstream American political extremities--liberal, conservative, libertarian, green, constitution (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States#Major_political_parties))--and see whose managerial skills actually prevail as being the most effective, even on a virtual scale?
Basic jist of the idea (and really, it's a basic pitch subject to massive changes): What if we took people who identify with each of the aforementioned political extremes--say, ten people per party (each would have to be subjected to some kind of political test to verify where they stand)--and then test their managerial skills with a game of SimCity 4?* Players would be allowed time to practice playing the game outside of the survey, but when the survey actually occurs, they would be allowed 4-5 hours to complete a medium-sized city, and after this time is up, they will be graded on scales such as quality of life in their city (based on education, health, pollution, and employment data), balancing of budget and taxes (how skewed are the tax brackets, is the city in debt, is the city in a deficit spending mode, were any loans taken out), quality of infrastructure (does the transportation grid work efficiently, is every building powered and watered, is the water polluted, how good is the police/fire coverage), city ordinaces (is commercial gambling considered legal, is the city considered nuclear-free, does the city provide free clinics by ordinance, etc.) and so on. I'd love to elaborate more on this here, but I'm just writing a forum thread. :rolleyes:
Not only would we get a glimpse at which political extreme is the best at running things on a small-to-medium scale, we'd also get a glimpse of how the policies of each political extremity affect a community.
It's a really simple idea, but is the basic gist of the idea even worth pursuing?
* SC4 instead of sc3k or sc2k because it's the most involved and complex of the series, and it gives the most comprehensive information about the impact of each decision a player makes within a city.
-
SimCity (any) isn't a very good simulator, all things considered. The results you get would be meaningless, esp. from a political standpoint.
Then again, it would be interesting to see how they would react to alien invasions.
-
And in all honesty you'd really learn only who's good at managing their inbox, which is not really a great way to run a government. Ask Carter.
-
SimCity (any) isn't a very good simulator, all things considered. The results you get would be meaningless, esp. from a political standpoint.
Then again, it would be interesting to see how they would react to alien invasions.
Not to sound touchy, but have you actually played SC4 and tried to succeed in it? It's incredibly difficult. :P
And in all honesty you'd really learn only who's good at managing their inbox, which is not really a great way to run a government. Ask Carter.
I fail to see how managing your inbox correlates with managing a virtual city. :p
-
nothing personal, but the idea of using a computer game as a political measuring stick is laughable.
-
It'd mean nothing for actual data, but it'd probably be fun nonetheless.
-
I like to think of it as a way of pointing and laughing at people who insist that their political beliefs are the only practical way to get things done.
-
SimCity (any) isn't a very good simulator, all things considered. The results you get would be meaningless, esp. from a political standpoint.
Then again, it would be interesting to see how they would react to alien invasions.
Not to sound touchy, but have you actually played SC4 and tried to succeed in it? It's incredibly difficult. :P
What does difficulty have to do with it?
If doing well at something difficult is your metric, have them play Ninja Gaiden.
-
The idea is sound, but a better simulator would be needed. Perhaps something purpose-built, and focused on running the country rather than one city. It'd have to be the mother of all simulators to be suitable for such a thing.
That said, it'd certainly be interesting to see how various well known politicians do in a management sim. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them ended up with their town on fire and people fleeing at the mere sight if it. :) Also, there's one rather important factor: in most sims, you're a governor for life, and you're not getting real world money for making bad decisions. I imagine that if a politician happens to be a good sim player, they often do things in RL which they'd never consider in game, since the only gain from these things is for them personally. Another thing is that in a simulator, it's comparatively easy to "tighten your belt" in times of crisis and sacrifice some happyness to survive, but people are much less forgiving in the real world.
-
I'm bothered by your use of the word "extremity" in describing all of those political affiliations. While each political strip may have its extremists, not all of those identifying groups should ever be considered extreme viewpoints.
Liberalism - classic liberalism - is pretty much the political center of any democracy (a lot of Republicans are actually classical liberals). Conservativism gets a bad name because of some conservative politicians, but it is not in and of itself an extreme movement, nor is libertarianism (which is just a branch of classical liberalism that's separated from larger liberalism in several democracies after the liberal parties absorbed a part of socialism that doesn't get along with libertarianism).
So your initial premise is flawed to begin with.
-
@MP-Ryan: I don't think a single word ("extremity") ruins the premise of the whole thing; my initial explanation was where the flaw was. Rephrased to "ideology," in reference to each mutually exclusive political stance (even if they intersect in some ways), the premise still makes sense.
@Dragon: Interesting point! Although it would indeed have to be the mother of all simulators, I suppose the context of which level of government (local, federal, etc.) is being tested needs to be taken into account. I suppose using SimCity 4 was a bad example, but the point still stands--perhaps making it more generalized: what if we could test each political ideology and see which is most effective on a categorical basis?
@BloodEagle: I think you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. Difficult or no, the point is to see which political ideology has an advantage in which field. Even if we don't use SimCity to test the theory, an experiment similar to the initial proposal could, in theory, yield some interesting results.
-
A while back I suggested something similar to a friend. Only instead of Sim City 4, you'd use a much better, open source simulator. And the user with the highest score would become president. :p
**** democracy, we give the job to the person who's proved best at it. :p
-
USA: run by a 13 year old Korean.
-
Hey, so long as he knows how to micro, I'm all for it.
-
I don't need the god damned gubmint telling ME we require additional pylons! :hopping:
-
I'm pretty sure there's no way that Korean kid would be able to choose appropriate AI governor settings for stuff that needs delegating. His Diplomacy modifiers would all be huge negatives, too. :P
-
A while back I suggested something similar to a friend. Only instead of Sim City 4, you'd use a much better, open source simulator. And the user with the highest score would become president. :p
**** democracy, we give the job to the person who's proved best at it. :p
Personally, I'm a fan of the idea of a meritocracy, so your idea tickles my fancy.
-
USA: run by a 13 year old Korean.
And he'd still be more qualified than whoever you get in 2016. :p
-
I don't need the god damned gubmint telling ME we require additional pylons! :hopping:
:lol:
-
A while back I suggested something similar to a friend. Only instead of Sim City 4, you'd use a much better, open source simulator. And the user with the highest score would become president. :p
**** democracy, we give the job to the person who's proved best at it. :p
Personally, I'm a fan of the idea of a meritocracy, so your idea tickles my fancy.
Yes, that'd be a great idea. Meritocracy is perhaps the most "just" of the imaginable government systems. You're good at governing, you're doing this. The moment you stop being good at it, you're replaced. Unfortunately, nobody in charge would actually agree to change to such a system, since that'd hoist them out of office. :)
And I'm all for the idea of an open source "Sim America" management sim. You may start by signing the declaration of independence and go from there, or chose any other moment to try to achieve power and run the country. America would be very good for it, because it's political system and currency remained pretty much the same for over 200 years (IIRC, you could go to a store with Civil War era Union dollars and they'd have to accept them because technically, they're still the same currency as today), unlike Europe where things were much more complicated. Not to mention it's rather big and only borders with Canada and Mexico, and it's area stayed more or less constant through it's existence. Also, since you only have two meaningful political parties, the election would be between "You" and "Opponent", which is a great simplification from systems where there's more parties.
-
If that were the case, I'd dump people into the 1973 recession or the 1995 economic boom--see which one they end up ****ing up first. Last one to have a recession wins? :lol:
-
That's one approach. The second one would be to have them start from today (a decent indicator of how they'd do in real life), or from the Declaration of Independence (longer gameplay, more possibilities, more time to screw up).
-
SimCity (any) isn't a very good simulator, all things considered. The results you get would be meaningless, esp. from a political standpoint.
Then again, it would be interesting to see how they would react to alien invasions.
They'd all be in favor of stopping them with a wall! Ba dum pish.
-
I fail to see how managing your inbox correlates with managing a virtual city. :p
Problem fix problem.
"managing your inbox" is attempting to deal with whatever crap's on your desk at the moment, which is essential gameplay, but hasn't really gotten much love as a style of government. You'd just ensure rebellions.
-
Liberalism - classic liberalism - is pretty much the political center of any democracy (a lot of Republicans are actually classical liberals).
We're talking about the United States here, right? A lot of Republicans are actually neoconservatives, and they get a bad rep because of their extremist (for real!) beliefs. They're the ones that want to increase military spending and go to war with the Middle East and forcing democracy through war and protect Israel and leave the loopholes alone and ban gay marriages and broaden the tax base to tax the poors and throw apples at Black reporters and prevent women from ever getting abortion and force voter ID laws to discriminate against those without even though evidence shows that the laws would be up pointless.
Libertarians (not those Tea Party extremists and not Ron Paul) are the closest thing I see to classical liberals. I'd liken the Republicans belief to be closer to fascism than anything else.
-
Liberalism - classic liberalism - is pretty much the political center of any democracy (a lot of Republicans are actually classical liberals).
We're talking about the United States here, right? A lot of Republicans are actually neoconservatives, and they get a bad rep because of their extremist (for real!) beliefs. They're the ones that want to
increase military spending
hmm, if necessary, but probably some shuffling of the cards would do (more money for actual needs, like maybe a new rifle already? and less for pet experiments)
and go to war with the Middle East
only if they are actually building WMD or invading their neighbors, or violating the terms of their ceasefire or something
and forcing democracy through war
counterproductive, I'd agree not the best idea, however, if there is popular support for it, then lending a hand would be the neighborly thing to do
and protect Israel
No let's leave them to fend for themselves amongst the real extremists here (yeah, the ones that vow to drive Israel into the sea and the Great Satan America next)
and leave the loopholes alone
Nix the loopholes and do a flat tax. You know.. like Russia successfully did a while back (14% IIRC)
and ban gay marriages
Counterproductive unless society agrees it is wrong. You can't legislate morality.
and broaden the tax base to tax the poors
Poor don't ****ing pay taxes. I know this cause I'm ****ing poor
and throw apples at Black reporters
wut
and prevent women from ever getting abortion
Again, you can't legislate morality
and force voter ID laws to discriminate against those without even though evidence shows that the laws would be up pointless.
Umm, I think voter ID would be a good idea. But it should be done in between election cycles, and those without should be assisted to acquire one, and the cost should be covered. You know, dead people voting happens every election, and it's just stupid. If your side isn't going to win, you need to argue your point better and reach more people, not cheat.
Yes, as you can see, I'm a ****ing extremist. Put me over in the corner with Nuke. :nono:
Libertarians (not those Tea Party extremists and not Ron Paul) are the closest thing I see to classical liberals. I'd liken the Republicans belief to be closer to fascism than anything else.
-
You know, dead people voting happens every election, and it's just stupid.
Erm... (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-8-2012/wizards-of-i-d-) if by every election you mean it might as well be 0, sure...
No let's leave them to fend for themselves amongst the real extremists here (yeah, the ones that vow to drive Israel into the sea and the Great Satan America next)
And why does the US have a love affair with Israel? They have one of the largest armies per capita in the world (both body count and spending wise) and they probably have nuclear weapons, I'm pretty sure they don't need help defending themselves. Hell, I'd be more worried about their neighbors than them, since they (Israel) seem just fine heading down the path of extremism like everybody else in the region.
-
There's at least one disturbing faction of US evangelicals that sees the reconstruction of the Jewish Temple as necessary for the Apocalypse and all that related stuff to take place, so they're all about making sure Israel stays happy.
-
Nix the loopholes and do a flat tax. You know.. like Russia successfully did a while back (14% IIRC)
Funny thing about Russia.... The government still owns large shares of very profitable industries, such as their oil industry. They can get away with a flat tax rate, on par with the lowest marginal rates in the United States, because whenever one of these big industries makes a buck, so too does the government, before taxes ever enter the equation. Russia, in other words, doesn't achieve low taxes through conservatism; they achieve low taxes through their remaining vestiges of Socialism.
You, sir, deserve a slowclap for trotting out that example in defense of US neocons.
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65vk3c3rQ1r5zbgq.gif)