Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Beorne on September 04, 2012, 08:33:00 am
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After a long time and and a brand new PC I have reinstalled Freespace and FSO.
Thanks to the very clear installation instructions all seems ok (apart from the the annoying "insert CD 2" deriving from the original CD installation that I think I have to keep).
I'd like to ask you what is the best control to pilot your ship between:
- mouse
- joystick "new style" (Logitech with a lot of buttons and gauges and very wide turning arc)
- joystick "old style" (with microswitches and narrow turning arc, fortunately some time ago I found a usb - joystick port converter)
- joypad PS2 like
Thank you very much.
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That is the trap question. You have very strong defenders for every side out there.
To sum up the issue, mouse is more accurate, but doesn't let you turn as fast or for as long as keyboard-only or joystick can. Console-grade controllers support is sketchy AFAIK, because FSO doesn't natively support multiple axis so you have to use emulators to get through. I'll let joystick experts elaborate on this.
I am a mouser myself. I am among the old-timers who think every game should use mouse and keyboard and ONLY that as input devices, and that all those joystick and console controller users should GET OFF MY LAWN.
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Console-grade controllers support is sketchy AFAIK, because FSO doesn't natively support multiple axis so you have to use emulators to get through.
Joysticks and analog controls are currently limited to 4 axes: Pitch, Bank, Roll, and Forward/Reverse Throttle. There's 5 axes if you count relative throttle as a separate axis.
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Yeah, this one is all about preference. Personally, I've been using a thumb trackball mouse for over 15 years and you can pry it from my cold, dead hands. The accuracy anytime I have to shoot anything is fantastic, and I get to avoid having to pick my hand up all the time if I need to turn a lot, say, while being annoyed by Dragons.
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Whereas I am mostly a console gamer, therefore find using a PS3 style gamepad much more natural. It is very much a matter of taste, (although I have never played multi on this game and reckon I would have my arse handed to me on plate by the many veteran keyboard/mouse and HOTAS joystick players here :nervous: )!
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I still play mostly keyboard with occasional mouse for turret sniping
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I love my HOTAS kit. Saitek X-52 Pro, and it worked like a charm on Diaspora. Only drawback to it is the strain placed on your wrist because of the awkward way you end up holding it in the middle of a close-in dogfight. This would be mitigated through the use of rudder pedals, but you'd need to use some third party software to get them to work with FS, as far as I know.
However, I would only recommend a joystick for this game if you have some kind of affinity for flight controls like I do and demand authenticity. :P If you're not an aviation nut or someone with a thing for joysticks, I wouldn't recommend you go for it.
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I'd recommend a HOTAS if you aren't short on money, as they're quite costly. CH Products, Logitech and Saitek make such sets, I'd recommend CH. CH Fighterstick also has the problem with wrist strain. It comes from the fact that the joystick in F-16 (on which both Fighterstick and, IIRC, X-52 Pro stick are based) is situated beside your thigh, and thus isn't designed to be used at desk level. I wouldn't worry about it though, at least for me, this isn't much of an annoyance, and you get 3 4 directional HATs, a 8 way POV HAT and 4 buttons on your stick alone. Throw in the throttle (they usually have a thumbstick which you can map to side thrusters), and you'll be able to map almost all useful functions in FS to it (CH one comes with as many buttons as the stick, I don't know about Saitek). Pedals are a nice addition if you have money for them, though they really shine in flight sims, in FS, a twist stick would be more useful, because it's more intuitive to counter "automatic" banking that way.
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Voice only.
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Keyboard + Mouse + Joystick
Keyboard for throttle controls/targeting/etc.
Joystick for turning (only buttons I need on it are fire buttons and bank-swap ones).
Mouse for aiming at small targets.
This is the best setup IMO. Too bad you need 3 hands (or be very fast at switching)
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im gonna have to say get a hotas. my hands need never leave my stick or throttle. there are enough functions for me to do pretty much anything. a mouse gives you at most 5 buttons (sure you have your whole other other hand for keys, but my right hand has 4x the inputs of even the best mouse), if the game will support them. i have 20 inputs on my joystick alone (and about the same on my throttle), thats without setting up modes, shift buttons or using the 8-way hats as 8-way (i use em as 4 way, diagonals are hard to hit), which i can do if need be. you get easy to sustain turning and very intuitive thrust control. this comes at the expense of aim (and thats the only place where the mouse had us beat). however, one can get real good at aiming with a joystick, provided enough practice and good settings.
now il tell you how much gamepads suck. you have about a third to a half the functions the hotas has. its also not as easy to take a hand off the gamepad to hit a key when you need to. with a mouse you have to and with a hotas you can use your throttle hand if you need to (you usually dont). the thumbsticks are not accurate at all. you can barely steer with them let alone aim. some console peasants are really good with them, but the device is far from optimal. the thumb does not have the dexterity neccisary to operate an analog stick. further more many of the sticks have intrinsic deadzones and funky output curves. i know this because ive read their datasheets (i use a lot of these joystick modules in electronics projects). the best thumbstick module ive every seen is the one in my ch pro throttle. it has metal gimbals. even it is a little glitchy around the center. frankly id rather fly pure keyboard like i did in the good old days of descent. i made this point elsewhere that gamepads were a lot like qwerty keyboards. both are far from optimal, but people get good at them anyway because they dont want to learn a better layout or just dont know the wiser.
tldr:
1. hotas
2. non hotas and keyboard
3. mouse and keyboard.
4. keyboard only
5. ??
6. wiimote+nunchuck (ive played fs with this, its not bad, cept for the fact that you dont have many buttons)
7. ???
...
27. ???
28. gamepad
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I'll stick with my HOTAS setup every time. I'll go to any length to make my gaming experience as immersive as possible, and you just can't match the sort of experience this sort of configuration offers.
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I tried my HOTAS when I got it, and I reverted back to just joystick and keyboard, with my mouse close by for sniping and stuff.
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hotas + keyboard, VERY occasionally use mouse for maxim sniping turrets or distant bombers (i need a way to invert it though). i used to use a joystick with a simple slider throttle and JUST enough buttons to get the main combat functions on there, way back in the days of retail as a young lad. i actually hated the HOTAS at first because it was so different. the main thing that drove me nuts was the rocker switch on the throttle instead of the twist axis on the stick. i don't think i could fly without all the targeting and other fancy functions right at my fingertips anymore, but i do still wish i could use that twist axis again. and that my HOTAS wasn't so stiff. it makes my arm hurt if i get into a long session.
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So I cleaned the dirt over my Logitech Extreme™ 3D Pro (it is an HOTA, isn't? ) only to find it keeps pulling the z axe (rotating the ship) even if I leave it alone. And calibrating does not work. I think I have to do some screw work. .....
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Yeah, I've had those kind of issues with my Logitech Extreme 3D pro as well. The Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X that I am currently using is proving to be a very durable joystick that has none of those issues even after years of use. It has a rather large deadzone, but I found that could be solved through adjusting stick sensitivity using X-Padder.
The Thrustmaster T.16000M is a joystick that can be set up for either right or left-handed use, making twin joystick setups possible. Sadly, many games don't support two joysticks at once, so you may need to use an external program like X-Padder for keybinding purposes.
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Anything that supports multiple controllers should support two joysticks.
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Anything that supports multiple controllers should support two joysticks.
Sadly, I haven't run into many space sims that support multiple controllers. I-War 2 is the only one that comes to mind.
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its trivial for software to support more than one joystick. the only reason games dont is because mainstream gamers dont give enough of a **** to demand good input code anymore. most of them are either from the kb+mouse crowd or the console crowd. so games industries focus on pleasing those players. and them microsoft tells everyone not to use direct input because it hasn't been upgraded since dx8, and instead tell everyone to use xinput instead, which is sadly worse than direct input, and doesnt support usb hid game controllers (or any other old skool joystick interface).
of course you can work around it. there are a few directinput -> xinput wrappers around. of course if you have more than 10 buttons or 6 axes on your controller, you cant use those. and you can combine joysticks with something like ppjoy, which means more configuration hassels. and both probibly add a bit of latency to the input, because you have to have 3rd party software do what should be the job of the os.
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i find the latest games don't even bother to please the KB/mouse crowd anymore, being as how they are ****ty console ports.
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yea. when games start lacking the ability for players to use an inverted mouse, i really start to worry. we shouldnt be giving console peasants all the power.
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i've never had that problem, since i don't use invert (in fact i need to be able to invert-invert in FS winknudge), but I agree that is a basic option that can't be difficult to do and should be included. my main gripe though is the PISS POOR response to mouse movement in several of the last few games i've played. most notably and the worst offender, crysis 2. aiming isn't smooth AT ALL. you have to move the mouse a fairly substantial distance to get that first bit of movement out of the crosshair (or throw accuracy to the wind and jerk), and when it finally does move, the granularity is several pixels at a time. i know it's not my mouse, because it works BEAUTIFULLY in crysis 1 and plenty of other games with the same mouse settings (which IIRC are full sensitivity and acceleration/smoothing enabled. it creates situations when i'm trying to snipe at significant distances where i literally can't line up the shot properly, because the crosshairs jump over where i need them to be. hell, even close range aiming is harder than it should be.
.... so yeah, joysticks are awesome for freespace. :nervous:
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I don't get great fine aim control with my joystick, but I could still never imagine playing FS with anything but a stick. I think that goes all the way back to when I first played Descent at a friend's house: he had a joystick there, so I started out using it, and I've just kept doing so for any flight-related game ever since.
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FWIW, there was something wrong with Dead Space (first one) where you had to shut off vsync as it caused input lag and then force it to on in your video card control panel (to keep it from tearing due to vsync being off, but for whatever reason, forcing on in control panel didn't cause the lag, I guess it was a problem in the game code or something).
So you might want to Google around and see if there's something like that going on with Crysis 2.
Also, where is the option fro Mouse with toggleable joystick script? ;7