Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => The Babylon Project => Public Development => Topic started by: wesp5 on September 06, 2012, 04:12:55 pm
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0rph3u5 said that I should post here about details. I don't really know how the main TBP installer is handled, like whether it checks OS details or writes into the registry, but Zathras and the later engine builds are just file archives that could be easily be added on top using a custom installer with OAL installed by the same one too. If the TBP main installer just needs to move a batch of files as well, one could join all of it together without much changes, maybe offering a basic option of installing TBP 3.4b and a plus option installing Zathras and newer builds.
I don't know if the included campaigns are part of the deal with IPAndrews, but if they are not, I would suggest to only include MAG's Star Fury missions, because they offer a much more varied approach to show off the game than the two campaigns and would keep the main TBP installer small and dedicated and easier to update. I would then suggest to offer a big campaign package including all the current available campaigns in one big installer and it would be really cool if someone could finish the Earth Minbari war to be more than a "demo" campaign!
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You could PM or e-mail hip63 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5822) and ask nicely if he could update his installer.
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You could PM or e-mail hip63 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5822) and ask nicely if he could update his installer.
So did he create the main TBP installer or the DVD version? I did understand Orph3u5 in such a way, that a new TBP/DVD version with updated Zathras and campaigns should be released in the wake of Diaspora to renew the attention for the mod...
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DVD version.
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Maybe it is actually time to do that... Fortune Hunters voice acting has not gone forward for 3 months now and I am kind off pissed.
A new DVD with TBP, the new Zathras and just a few campaigns on it. (Achen Schooling Flight, Raider Wars, Earth-Minbari-War-Demo and The Relic would be my picks)
Maybe even using 3.6.14, depending on the compatibility. I'll talk about this with FUBAR.
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I would put everything on it that fits :). Fortune Hunter of course and also the cool Shadows and Vorlon mini campaigns and the Star Fury missions. And don't forget to include OAL too...
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did understand Orph3u5 in such a way, that a new TBP/DVD version with updated Zathras and campaigns should be released in the wake of Diaspora to renew the attention for the mod...
that was more Karajorma's suggestion than mine ... credit where credit is due
Maybe even using 3.6.14, depending on the compatibility. I'll talk about this with FUBAR.
I was actually on my way to ask some questions on the state of Zathras ... but you go ahead, as I understand you two had some plans I don't know about
I don't know if the included campaigns are part of the deal with IPAndrews, but if they are not, I would suggest to only include MAG's Star Fury missions, because they offer a much more varied approach to show off the game than the two campaigns and would keep the main TBP installer small and dedicated and easier to update. I would then suggest to offer a big campaign package including all the current available campaigns in one big installer
That sounds reasonable...
and it would be really cool if someone could finish the Earth Minbari war to be more than a "demo" campaign!
Let's get this on road first and then once there is a unified opinion what players should or shouldn't have we can tackle this
On a side node - maybe more for future Zathras releases than this - wouldn't support for the wxlauncher be a good idea? (I could do that, I think)
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Let's get this on road first and then once there is a unified opinion what players should or shouldn't have we can tackle this.
I can think about two ways. The easy one would be to create a new installer that just includes the TBP 3.4b installer, the OAL installer (don't forget this), the latest Zathras and launcher files, the latest working engine builds and as many campaigns as would fit on one DVD. When installing the user would then get to select a "basic" version (including only TBP and OAL) or a "plus" version (including Zathras with new engines) and optional as many campaigns as he wants.
The harder way would be to extract TBP 3.4b and wrap the contents up into a new installer, maybe replacing the included campaigns with MAG's single missions to get all of the campaigns into one section, and then include OAL, Zathras and the engine builds into this as well, either as "basic" / "plus" version like above or all in one updated file.
I would recommend to call both ways TBP 3.5 because 3.4b always gives the impression to me it was still beta ;)! Oh, and I would also like to see the Earth/Minbari DEMO campaign renamed into MINI campaign on that occasion, because it isn't a demo anymore!
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hm, cannot contact FUBAR.
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I can think about two ways. The easy one would be to create a new installer that just includes the TBP 3.4b installer, the OAL installer (don't forget this), the latest Zathras and launcher files, the latest working engine builds and as many campaigns as would fit on one DVD. When installing the user would then get to select a "basic" version (including only TBP and OAL) or a "plus" version (including Zathras with new engines) and optional as many campaigns as he wants.
That would be the simplest way ...
I have point out though that the installer would require an option to upgrade the existing installation ... if that is remotely doable
I would recommend to call both ways TBP 3.5
[...]
Oh, and I would also like to see the Earth/Minbari DEMO campaign renamed into MINI campaign on that occasion, because it isn't a demo anymore!
Both would be crossing the line drawn at the final release ... and we should not disturb that hornets' nest for a re-release ...
However just leaving a version number out and just say "it is TBP Final" would be acceptable wordplay I guess (yeah that's terribly picky but considering the alternative of having another ...er time like you-know-when-what-happened)
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Both would be crossing the line drawn at the final release ... and we should not disturb that hornets' nest for a re-release ...
How about TBP Zathras Edition 3.5? Naming the next Zathras version 3.5 instead of 3.0 is the trick ;)!
However just leaving a version number out and just say "it is TBP Final" would be acceptable wordplay I guess...
But that would imply this would indeed be the last version of TBP and I don't think this will be true :).
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What would be the system specs.. to run this, and would any major changes take place to tables and models.
Im still running a 2.8 gh single core rig. is why im asking.
Been wanting a new rig, but have other obligations for the time being.
Anyway its good to hear from the (tbp) team. ;)
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What would be the system specs.. to run this, and would any major changes take place to tables and models.
Anyway its good to hear from the (tbp) team. ;)
No major changes to tables etc. will take place as these rules (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56303.0) (should) remain unvioltated
The following system requirements will remain:
Minimum System Requirements:
Pentium 3 600 MHz or AMD equivalent
256 MB RAM
Microsoft Windows 98/ME/2000/XP/Vista (compatible with 64-bit)
DirectX compatible 3D hardware accelerator card with HT&L Support
DirectX compatible 16-bit or higher sound card
2 gigbytes hard drive space (2.9 gigbytes with Campaign Pack installed)
Joystick or GamePad Recommended
DirectX 8.1 or higher
OpenAL 1.1 or higher
Including newer FS_Open builds and the required files to make all the new features work may increase these requirments but their use is optional; also you must know that most features can be turn off in the launcher to improve performance
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Thanks for the quick reply Orph3u5.
No major changes then, thats good to hear.
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So what happens now? Has FUBAR been reached? Is a new installer in the works?
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Nobody has been able to contact FUBAR. Neither Hip, creator of the last DVD release. Since I am in favor of a new installer and no one is there to oppose me (muhahaha) I'd say we should do it.
I really like wesp's "Zathras Edition" idea which allows for a proper new naming convention system without spoiling the old TBP version system.
My propose the following path of action:
- we wait for 3.6.14
- we test current Zathras with 3.6.14
- we select a few quality, voice-acted campaigns other than EMWD and RaiderWars (asking the creators of course)
- we test the selected campaigns with 3.6.14
- we build a new installer (and also a new DVD image, in case people ask for one).
What I really want to do is to clean up the whole TBP installation process. No more countless options, lots of files, Zathras updates, campaigns etc to worry about. I am aiming for a clean and simple release. If one wants more campaigns and stuff, you may always visit the forums but for this release, I would TPB to look the best it can in said release edition.
That is my plan. Please comment. TBP has been put into the hands of the fans, FUBAR and me were never supposed to be more than guardians. I will not do anything that meets with massive objection.
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Why the hell would you use 3.6.14?
Go with trunk. It's better in every way. :p
I'm still in favour of a whole new release but a Zathras edition would be a good compromise.
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Some people that don't go to IRC don't know it, so it may be better to spell it out loud : .14. is. utterly. outdated now. There has been discussion that .14 development may stop altogether to focus on trunk and eventually 3.7.
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I don't know what trunk is or which engine will be the best, but other than that I am all for vidmasters concept!
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Trunk is basically the "current" version of FS2_Open, where active development is taking place. When the SCP team gets ready for an official version release, the code is branched off at that point, to make sure that the official release is as stable and bug-free as possible. Unfortunately, the cycle for the next official version, 3.6.14, has taken much longer than usual for a number of reasons, so there's a whole bunch of newer stuff in trunk that doesn't exist in the official release branch.
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So we better wait for the new installer until trunk is finalized? Will this be anytime soon? Oh, and I forgot one thing to add to vidmaster's list: We mustn't forget to include OpenAL in the installer the same way Diaspora did! And regarding suitable campaigns, I recommend to include MAGs single player missions, because they are so close to the show. I made them 3.6.12 compatible with my patch already and can check them out again with trunk or whatever will be included. I would also like to see the Shadows and Vorlon mini-campaigns included, because they are so special, and I still think we should use the chance to rename the "Earth/Minbari demo campaign" into either "campaign" or "mini-campaign", wherever the difference is seen. The campaign included with Diaspora wasn't much longer and "demo" has a very unfinished sound about it which isn't appropriate for TBP: Zathras Edition 3.5 :)!
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trunk is never "finalized", only branches like 3.6.14 are finalized :) What I believe Karajorma means is to choose any given revision of trunk that you like and build the executables to ship with TBP from that (which is basically what Diaspora did). Having said that, 3.6.14 should be finished soon (no really!) and unlike Diaspora, TBP doesn't need any of the new code features added to trunk since 3.6.14 began for it to work, since TBP was originally released on 3.6.9 or 3.6.10?
Anyway - most important thing is to pick something and then test it thoroughly to see if there are any game breaking code bugs :)
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For historical reasons, I'd suggest going with whatever build Diaspora is currently using once you're ready. That worked out pretty well for you with BtRL and 3.6.9. :D
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We are currently using 3.6.12 Inferno but FUBAR did create a Zathras 2.1 for 3.6.13 (and .14 therefore.)
The problem is, I do not know the exact differences. Basically, FUBAR was the "development" guy while I created content and managed our external stuff, like the ModDB page or talking to magazine people. I remember there was some discussion about tagging certain weapons as "Swarm" and how it would affect mission balance, plus some debris stuff. FUBAR's absence really bits us in the ass here ;-)
Some people that don't go to IRC don't know it, so it may be better to spell it out loud : .14. is. utterly. outdated now.
You were right, I did not know that.
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Hello all,
So did he create the main TBP installer or the DVD version?
DVD version.
Actually I did both :D
So yeah, when every you guys are ready, I can whip up a new installer for ya.
I've even learned a few new tricks since the last ones.
(btw - what the hell is up with HL? I had a devil of a time getting logged in)
hip63 :P
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What program do you use for the installer out of interest?
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We are currently using 3.6.12 Inferno but FUBAR did create a Zathras 2.1 for 3.6.13 (and .14 therefore.)
So the question is, what are the changes between 3.6.12 and 3.6.14 and which of them affect TBP?
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What program do you use for the installer out of interest?
I'm versed in several, just depends on the need. :)
Most of the time I used Install Creator (used it for what folks call the main installer) but for the DVD I used Installshield.
I've also used a few others from time to time.
Install Creator had issues running from DVD but Installshield did not. However Install Creator is still better for a single file installer than Installshield.
I've also figured out way to use Install Creator with 7zip to make installers will an incredible amount compression to make the download sizes even smaller (depending on file types, ect.) One modding project I worked on had nearly 20 gigs of data that I was able to compress down to 2 gigs in the installer. :pimp:
hip63 :p
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Nice to see you again Hip63 :-)
So the question is, what are the changes between 3.6.12 and 3.6.14 and which of them affect TBP?
Actually, nothing should be affected despite:
- general stability
- more features for fredders
(- there should be a better Launcher right?)
The more interesting question is, what exactly did FUBAR do with the Zathras 2.1 dev update AND are those changes actually working? Said update was FUBAR's thing alone, I do not know what he was improving (I was really busy at that time).
Will go through the files eventually.
What it comes down to is that we need to test the game.
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What it comes down to is that we need to test the game.
I could test MAGs Star Fury missions with 3.6.14 and Zathras 2.1, I already know them well :)!
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What I really want to do is to clean up the whole TBP installation process. No more countless options, lots of files, Zathras updates, campaigns etc to worry about. I am aiming for a clean and simple release. If one wants more campaigns and stuff, you may always visit the forums but for this release, I would TPB to look the best it can in said release edition.
Second
Same goes for the proposed agenda ...
Hello all,
Welcome back
What it comes down to is that we need to test the game.
Okay then,
what *exact* FS_Open build are we talking now?
ps. I'm currently very busy with updating my FS_Open-stuff so I hardly check on HLP forum posts in the moment ... so if you need me to do stuff PM would work, forum post not so much
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I'd propose waiting for the "final" 3.6.14.
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I agree. It shouldn't be long as someone here already called 3.6.14 outdated ;). While FUBAR is unreachable, do you have all the Zathras 2.1 assets and could you upload it somewhere, so we can test missions and campains with it and 3.6.14? Also I think all your own campains should be included in the next DVD release for sure. Especially Dark Children :)!
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hip, while we're waiting, have you played Diaspora yet? If not, go get and play (latest patch is 1.0.3 don't forget), methinks you'll like. Don't worry, only 6 missions. :pimp: At least 11,500 downloads (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=82253.0) 16 days after release.
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Just wondering, is FUBAR really unreachable? He seems to be on the forums fairly often (last online about 6 hours ago (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5077)) and posted on the forums just yesterday (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=82098.msg1645926#msg1645926) (and also the day before that (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=82483.msg1645658#msg1645658)). So he seems to be around.
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Also saw him on IRC chatting with Kara.
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Damnit! I forgot to mention VidMaster was looking for him!
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Just wondering, is FUBAR really unreachable? He seems to be on the forums fairly often (last online about 6 hours ago (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5077)) and posted on the forums just yesterday (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=82098.msg1645926#msg1645926) (and also the day before that (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=82483.msg1645658#msg1645658)). So he seems to be around.
You know stalking someone that way is considered impolite ... (and you're not the only one who thought of that)
I'd propose waiting for the "final" 3.6.14.
As much as I hated the way kara said it (sorry, I percived it to be a bit arrogant - I guess it was unintentionally but notheless the tone didn't sit well with me), I've to admit that using the build supplied with Diaspora (for now) was a certain merit to it...
Esspecially since we can't exactly plan with 3.6.14 - it has already been mentioned that attention in the SCP has already shifted away from that and towards continous development of the trunk-branch...
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So is Diaspora using 3.6.12 or 3.6.13 and what are the differences and would any of them affect TBP?
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So is Diaspora using 3.6.12 or 3.6.13 and what are the differences and would any of them affect TBP?
3.6.13 is the dev branch for the eventual 3.6.14 release. But this is complicated by the fact that current 3.6.13 builds - including Diaspora's build - are far more advanced than any of the 3.6.14 release candidates, meaning that if 3.6.14 came out right now, it would be way behind the Diaspora build and 3.6.13 as a whole.
At the moment it looks like we may just skip 3.6.14.
The differences are extremely substantial in terms of graphics and performance, as well as the power available to FREDders and modders. I don't know how significant any of them would be on TBP though.
Even the Diaspora build is now technically outdated. Internally I'm sure most high octane projects (Diaspora, BP, BtA, WoD inclusive) are using newer 3.6.13 builds.
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Diaspora is using latest trunk at time of release. Technically trunk is .13 until .14RC cycles ends, but actually it is months beyond .14 RC and latest .13 nightlies (last I checked .14RC was more than 1400 svn revisions late, not counting backports), and years beyond .12. It's the most stable and advanced build you can get right now without having to compile trunk yourself.
EDIT: ninja'd
3.6.13 is the dev branch for the eventual 3.6.14 release.
.13 is trunk until .14 comes out, or until 3.7 comes out if .14 is abandoned. Your post make it sound .13 is in preparation and hence before .14, which is not the case. .14 has its own dev branch, separated from trunk (hence separated from .13), where devs can fix and backport stuff.
Basically .13 is everything that happens in trunk after .12 and until the next stable release.
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I would absolutely wait until the '3.6.7' release if that's what comes next.
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You mean 3.7
3.6.7 would be, like, 6-7 years ago ? :p
But then again if you're going to wait until 3.7 there is absolutely no telling when this happens. Especially if we get another... capricious RC cycle like .14. Could be in years from now. Better release with latest trunk.
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Right, oops.
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As much as I hated the way kara said it (sorry, I percived it to be a bit arrogant - I guess it was unintentionally but notheless the tone didn't sit well with me), I've to admit that using the build supplied with Diaspora (for now) was a certain merit to it...
eh?
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Just wondering, is FUBAR really unreachable? He seems to be on the forums fairly often (last online about 6 hours ago (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=5077)) and posted on the forums just yesterday (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=82098.msg1645926#msg1645926) (and also the day before that (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=82483.msg1645658#msg1645658)). So he seems to be around.
You know stalking someone that way is considered impolite ... (and you're not the only one who thought of that)
Stalking? Really? Don't you think that's a bit extreme of a description? I was just pointing to evidence that he's very clearly around, even when people were saying that he's unreachable. And others may very well have thought of it, but no one else suggested publicly that he might in fact not be unreachable.
Never mind, though; I shouldn't have interfered in TBP's business.
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wtf, one team, one fight. You sound like the Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps. :rolleyes: Quit bickering,
the Marines are best already I mean you're all on the same side. :nervous:
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Stalking? Really? Don't you think that's a bit extreme of a description?
Orph meant this as a joke.
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OK here is the run down as I see it.
Zathras will need to be updated for compatibility with anything beyond 3.6.12. 3.6.12 removed the -TBP command line flag and moved the info to the tables. There was a bug in that removal that was fixed a few days after 3.6.12. This led to the 3.6.12 compatible Zathras being intentionally shipped with tables that have commented out entries that are basically necessary bugs to work around that bug. The tables in the test build posted 2 years ago contain the uncommented out lines necessary for 3.6.13 and beyond.
There are also a bunch of other fixes as well as model optimizations (lods, debris, maps etc) in the beta.
3.6.14 was supposed to be out so I discontinued work at that point so the beta could be tested. As someone pointed out that was over 1400 revisions of 3.6.13 ago.
Fallout with Diaspora as well as no feedback on testing Zathras beta have pretty much left me burned out on anything FS2_Open related.
So basically that Zathras beta has been out there for about 2 years now with little testing. Doing any kind of new installer would require that version. Releasing it in an untested state is a bad idea.
That leaves conetent. What do we really have that warrants a new installer? How much new/finished content? How much is tested? Do we even know if TBP will work with 3.6.14 or current trunk?
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I'm using the latest Zathras with 3.6.14 build for quite some time, and it basically works. Of course debug builds complain about this and that, because let's be honest, the tables are a bit of a mess.
The way it is now with 3.4b and Zathras on top of it, there are too many tables/modular tables overriding each other. And there's a lot of table entries which were added originally to make BHX work, but now just clutter up everything.
If you want my opinion, in the long run there's no way around condensing everything into a clean base again (basically TBP 4.0), especially if we want to use all the fancy new features that require table and POF changes. Which also eventually means breaking backwards compatibility with existing campaigns.
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There should be no warnings or errors in debug. If there are they need to be in mantis so they can be looked into.
As for the tables there are really only 3 sets. The 3.4b release, latest Zathras release, and the Zathras beta if you are testing it. Of course the beta ones get merged for release so still only 2 sets for release.
While a 4.0 would be a good idea it's one hell of a lot of work and would require reworking and/or replacing a lot of assets to do it right. Not going to happen anytime soon.
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Not going to happen anytime soon.
Especially if it breaks compatibility with previous campaigns, this makes little sense. BTW, what is that about a Diaspora fallout?
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I was using 3.6.14 release candidate debug builds while testing the effects upgrades and I can't remember getting any messages using "vanilla" TBP 3.4b coupled with the last official non-beta Zathras patch.
FUBAR, regarding the Zathras beta, the debris LODs all seem to work okay. I have been using the beta mainly so stuff will explode and leave pieces behind instead of being completely and utterly consumed by great ballzofire.
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Bad news: My mouse hand and subsequent arm are out of commission for some time. I can hardly type, yet alone program, play or write.
No playing FS2 or writing my thesis... :-(
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Sorry to hear Vidmaster. Get better soon, or alternatively, get a new arm!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TOXgS_tE38g/Tqe0CgQO_rI/AAAAAAAAADA/HM_hBhM1SVU/s1600/Deus%2BEx-%2BHuman%2BRevolution%2BDeadly%2BArm%2BBlades.jpg)
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hip, while we're waiting, have you played Diaspora yet? If not, go get and play (latest patch is 1.0.3 don't forget), methinks you'll like. Don't worry, only 6 missions. :pimp: At least 11,500 downloads (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=82253.0) 16 days after release.
Got it, just haven't had time to play it. Been busy with me rock-n-roll band! (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/images/smilies/guitarist.gif)
hip63 :P
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Sorry to hear Vidmaster. Get better soon, or alternatively, get a new arm!
He didn't ask for this. :p