Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: SaltyWaffles on October 04, 2012, 11:14:51 am
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A question of curiosity; if I would be correct in assuming that the greater expense of an SSM is its subspace motivator and advanced/specialized guidance system rather than the wearhead--at least in the case of the Eos--why hasn't the Supernova torpedo (or a variant/upgrade of it) been given SSM capability to make it more cost-effective?
Don't get me wrong; the Eos SSM can be surprisingly effective when used in large numbers, but short of that they lack the damage output to provide anything more than a momentary distraction and supplementary anti-ship firepower.
With a Supernova SSM, my guess is that it'd either be used when the target's point defenses have already been taken down or weakened, or it would be used against high-value targets or major threats when the circumstances warranted it. Given how, in their current usage (until we actually see a Diomedes use Supernovas like its tech description suggests) they're only used as a supplamentary, long-range torpedo for Titans, wouldn't this make them more significant/effective (and more worth producing, thus driving production costs down?) in general? Heck, if you could get affordable Supernova/Helios SSM's, you could forgo conventional heavy bombers in general (you'd still need to take out or distract the target's point defenses first, but it's not like heavy bombers didn't need that already).
Oh, and one last thing: in Cost of War, if the Akula survives the first part of the mission, later on a Tev AWACS vectors in a wing or two of Ares/HercII's that launch a huge barrage of SSM's (well, TAG-C's, technically); something like 8 TAG-C's must have been used. On top of the effect being devastating (even a fresh Karuna's point defenses would get overwhelmed), it was a step up from other SSM strikes seen in this and other missions; was there any unusual set of circumstances that allowed this, or do most SSM strikes usually involve that many TAG-C's?
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I think you have partly answered your own question.
in order for a SSM strike to work you have to overwhelm the point defences of the target, 10 EOS is more likely to do this than 5 or 8 Supernova, also as a good rule of thumb the more powerful something is the more costly it is.
also in a big strike of SSM when 1 EOS missile out of 10 goes down it is a much smaller portion of the damage than 1 out of 8 Supernovas.
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Who said the Supernova can't serve as an SSM?
Just because we don't see them used as such doesn't mean they aren't. After all, we don't see any Raynors using Supernovas, but I'm pretty sure their launchers can fire them.
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Two reasons. 1. Just because you can marry an expensive warhead to an even more expensive missile bus doesn't mean you should. The factions in BP will make decisions that, when looked at in a vacuum, may seem suboptimal. In other words, they will act as real life actors would.
2. Gameplaywise, SSMs are rather frustrating to play against. Making them even more so is not a good thing to do, especially when the end result is largely the same.
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Also, nobody says it wasn't done already. We just don't see it used. SSMs are rare, heavy SSMs are rarer. Since UEF PD weapons are quite formidable, it stands to reason that they'd use the Eos against them, and even then, we only see them do that a couple of times. It's an expensive tactic, and any Supernova SSMs would most likely be restricted for use against Shivans, who have considerably weaker, easier to disable PD weapons.
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We've actually always planned to do Supernova SSMs! I believe they were in an early version of WiH's ssm.tbl.
This thread almost immediately nailed one of the primary tactical reasons the Eos is a good alternative, though. It's pretty easy to shoot down one Supernova.
The Eos is a killer piece of ordnance and will be showing up even more.
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2. Gameplaywise, SSMs are rather frustrating to play against. Making them even more so is not a good thing to do, especially when the end result is largely the same.
SSMs are basically swarm torpedoes. That come from every angle. That is AWESOME.
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What The E and Droid said. SSMs are *very* powerful, usually poping and hitting their targets before the fighters can react. And a single strike has usually more than one torpedo (2 or 3 in the case of BP's).
Anyway, I love SSM strikes. There is so much you can do with them, but we don't see them that often.
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Something awesome only stays awesome if used scarcely.
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I don't know how many times we see a SSM...once, twice trice?
But on my first playthrough I instantly restarted the mission and tried to shot them down...what was realy frustrating and now?
I lean back and think "Well, they're dead anyway."
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indeed used often it is a game mechanic that quickly looses its drama and disengages the player as it brings in an element of futility to protecting capital ships because in the player's mind the ship will probably be kill switched with an SSM at the end of the mission anyway.
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I don't know how many times we see a SSM...once, twice trice?
But on my first playthrough I instantly restarted the mission and tried to shot them down...what was realy frustrating and now?
I lean back and think "Well, they're dead anyway."
3 missions: Collateral Damage, Darkest Hour, and Delenda Est.
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I don't know how many times we see a SSM...once, twice trice?
But on my first playthrough I instantly restarted the mission and tried to shot them down...what was realy frustrating and now?
I lean back and think "Well, they're dead anyway."
3 missions: Collateral Damage, Darkest Hour, and Delenda Est.
Actually, they were used multiple times in Post Meridian, as well.
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No, they aren't. You might want to doublecheck your facts next time.
Unless you are talking about my Post Meridian coop, which isn't canon.
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No, they aren't. You might want to doublecheck your facts next time.
Unless you are talking about my Post Meridian coop, which isn't canon.
Odd...I know the Juarez moves to give TAG support (but then the Vilnius jumps in), but I remember being tasked with intercepting an Aurora SSM strike (though this only happened in oddball tests of the mission I did, using cheats, to see how feasible disabling the Meridian's engines or saving the Vilnius was, and only in the later stages of the mission, so it might be something that isn't supposed to happen normally).
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The mission file contains no Aurora and no TAG-C.
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I really liked how SSM strikes were used in WiH, though I don't remember seeing them in Delenda Est. That may be simply because of all that's happening at any given moment in that mission though.
But in Collateral Damage we're given a first hand view of how terrifying they are, I think Kassim's line does it justice when he says something along the lines of "They're carving the Akula up like a slab of meat!". When you see all those subspace holes opening you know just how screwed that ship really is.
Then in Darkest Hour, with the previous mission still fresh in your mind, you now have first hand knowledge of just how dangerous they are and yet are given a way to stop them. It made me all the more desperate to get those AWACS out of the field ASAP because you already know how destructive and hard counter to it is, but when you do manage to salvage the situation, it felt all the more satisfying because you know from experience how badly it could've gone.
I hope they are used sparingly though, because if it gets used too much it either becomes a scenario where you know you are screwed and starts being more frustrating than terrifying, or where you know you can counter it and it becomes just another hurdle.
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In Delenda Est, you have to intercept a singel Aurora, escorted by three Hercules MK2 roughly halfway from the mission start to the first pair of Deimos corvettes, if my memory serves me right.
How devastating that particular SSM attack actually is, if the wing isn't intercepted, I don't know though, since I always managed it in time and only knew about them supposedly vectoring in SSMs because either an ingame message or the goals window told me to get them before they call down a missile strike.
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It's pretty bad if it hits.