Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Nuke on October 04, 2012, 08:12:36 pm
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just add one new subsytem, $custom, and define its behavior with scripting. you can give it an alternate name, which you then read with scripting (or sexps) and do all the things neccisary for that subsystem type (in fact everything should have a custom mode that is defined with scripting). its fairly easy to do an interface screw that locks you out of your controls or throws in some noise or updates intermittantly. you can throw in artifitial caps in velocity or rotation speed, cap afterburner speed, leak afterburner energy, force glide on or off. some of that scripting cant do but sexps surely can, and those can be called from scripts.
i know all you modders get tired of hearing this but learn scripting already. all you people who fred already know lisp more or less, so whats one more programming language? it takes some skills to edit tables that are just as common in a programmers toolset, so you already know the importance of names, variables, syntax, etc. id rather the coders work on core engine functionality that modding features. modding features might be easy to implement and have immediate payoff, but it adds load to codebase maintenance efforts.
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One thing scripting will not enable you to do is create fun exciting missions and put them together into campaigns!
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only because no one has tried. scripting's place is general features, fred's place is mission scripting. you can use scripting for mission events, and you can use fred for general features (fredders seem to be really good at this), but there is little reason to. but if one could combine both disciplines such a modder would be a force to be reckoned with. such a shame i never became proficient with fred, i always get frustrated at the events editor not letting me do the thing i want to do and quit.
the lines are blurring though. the fred gods and scripting gurus arent really the issue, they apply their skills well. its the modders who dont want to figure out how to mod and jump to the coders for features to make their ideas work. diversify your skill sets.
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Most of the really high-octane current FREDders use scripts in their mission design so I'm not sure what you're going for here.
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the ones who demand features from coders, and then complain that they cant script when you tell them to use scripting.
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Who has done that? Out of Karajorma, Axem, Goober, Spoon, myself, bigchunk, Ace, probably a couple others I'm missing?
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Diaspora and BP do both use scripting quite heavily.
But scripting does have limitations. We got a few questions asking why we didn't use the particle script for instance, the simple fact was that we did try and then found that 20-25% of CPU time was being spent on that script alone.
I can certainly understand Nuke's basic point that it might be an idea to ask for a script to do x before you ask for code to do the same thing. It would certainly take a lot of work off the coders, especially for features that only one mod wants. Let the code be for stuff that has to be fast, can be used by everyone, or can't be implemented in another way.
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Makes sense. Though many of the coders double as the community's scripters.. so I'm not sure how much time it saves.
Though recently, Admiral MS has found a ton of scripting functions to be broken. That leads me to wonder how much bugfixing needs to happen before the scripting system gets fixed up? However, I'm pretty sure that Admiral MS is working on fixing many of the issues he has found. At times though, he still seems somewhat discouraged with the scripting system currently.
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i dont know if thats a case. if i see something thats broke, i usually fix it and then pass along a patch. most of the major scripters do this. i also see a lot of scripters add features to scripting on the c side. scripting is kind of a stepping stone to coding as well. i know i didnt bother writing any engine code till after i had already done some scripting.
as for bugs they aren't that bad. you can usually work around them. id be very interested to see the bugs that admiral ms has found. the scripting system is far from being crippled though. scripters usually understand the system enough to go in and fix things. i never produced bug reports, only patches.
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But scripting does have limitations. We got a few questions asking why we didn't use the particle script for instance, the simple fact was that we did try and then found that 20-25% of CPU time was being spent on that script alone.
You didn't use particle script ("you" as in "Diaspora", I assume)? I've seen configs, table files and everything in R1 VPs. How did you disable it? Also, do they actually look good? I'm sure my machine can take the load, people like me might want to re-enable it.
its fairly easy to do an interface screw that locks you out of your controls or throws in some noise or updates intermittantly. you can throw in artifitial caps in velocity or rotation speed, cap afterburner speed, leak afterburner energy, force glide on or off. some of that scripting cant do but sexps surely can, and those can be called from scripts.
The question is, can you disable individual guns/missiles (not banks, gun points) with scripting? That was the idea that kind of started it all, and I took it from Wing Commander. If I was told I can have one thing from my list implemented, I'd pick that. I didn't see any functionality that would even hint at such a possibility though (I'm not a scripter though, so maybe I overlooked it).
Also, it'd need to play nice with dynamic primary linking calculations once Antipodes 8 gets commited. Speaking of which...
Lastly, if you bump MAX_RED_ALERT_SUBSYSTEMS or SUBSYSTEM_MAX then the new pilot files are incompatible with the old ones, old pilots will probably crash FSO on loading unless you add code to handle both old and new values.
I take it's all regarding the main branch. What about Antipodes 8? Would pilot code problems mentioned also apply to the new pilot code, or does it allow increasing those values with minimal problems?
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i dont know if thats a case. if i see something thats broke, i usually fix it and then pass along a patch. most of the major scripters do this. i also see a lot of scripters add features to scripting on the c side. scripting is kind of a stepping stone to coding as well. i know i didnt bother writing any engine code till after i had already done some scripting.
as for bugs they aren't that bad. you can usually work around them. id be very interested to see the bugs that admiral ms has found. the scripting system is far from being crippled though. scripters usually understand the system enough to go in and fix things. i never produced bug reports, only patches.
This is somewhat silly... If I were to paraphrase what I think you are saying in total...
"People should stop making requests and learn scripting because scripting is better. If there are scripting bugs, work around them... or... make a patch, because if you can script, you can patch. It's not that hard."
So what you are saying is that for anyone to be worth their salt to you in modding, they need to script everything and then by extension be able to code enough to make sure their scripts work properly. Sounds more to me like you just think everyone should be like you.
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But scripting does have limitations. We got a few questions asking why we didn't use the particle script for instance, the simple fact was that we did try and then found that 20-25% of CPU time was being spent on that script alone.
You didn't use particle script ("you" as in "Diaspora", I assume)? I've seen configs, table files and everything in R1 VPs. How did you disable it? Also, do they actually look good? I'm sure my machine can take the load, people like me might want to re-enable it.
We took out the script file. :p
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i dont know if thats a case. if i see something thats broke, i usually fix it and then pass along a patch. most of the major scripters do this. i also see a lot of scripters add features to scripting on the c side. scripting is kind of a stepping stone to coding as well. i know i didnt bother writing any engine code till after i had already done some scripting.
as for bugs they aren't that bad. you can usually work around them. id be very interested to see the bugs that admiral ms has found. the scripting system is far from being crippled though. scripters usually understand the system enough to go in and fix things. i never produced bug reports, only patches.
This is somewhat silly... If I were to paraphrase what I think you are saying in total...
"People should stop making requests and learn scripting because scripting is better. If there are scripting bugs, work around them... or... make a patch, because if you can script, you can patch. It's not that hard."
So what you are saying is that for anyone to be worth their salt to you in modding, they need to script everything and then by extension be able to code enough to make sure their scripts work properly. Sounds more to me like you just think everyone should be like you.
thats not what im saying at all. what im saying is that scripting will make you better modders. and stop bugging coders with things that can be done with scripting! they are busy enough.
that is separate from the things i said about scripters actually having a record for maintaining/patching/expanding the scripting system. all major scripters that i know of have submitted scripting patches and other code. id argue against scripting taking away from coder time and turn it around to say that new scripters are likely to turn into coders rather that scripting taking time away from existing coders.
modders certainly should not be like me, if they were they would never get anything done. :D
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I tend to find that in general modders tend to branch out into coding. Many of the better FREDders have tried it too. In a way it's pretty understandable, scripting, FREDding and coding all require similar mindsets.
The reason I got into C++ coding was that I wanted a feature and got bored of waiting for the SCP to add it. I know other FREDders have done the same thing.
Nuke does raise a good point. I've frequently seen someone get told that a minor feature they want can be scripted (or made with SEXPs for that matter) only for them to continue to ask for it to be added to the code cause that's easier. While that might be true for the modder in question, it's not as easy for the coder as them doing nothing. :p So yeah, it does drain coder time that could be spent elsewhere.
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I'm not arguing or against any of that. I do, however, take issue with the idea that I need to know how to script to be a good modder, to the extent that I'm supposed to do "general features" with scripting just because someone thinks that's the "right" way to do it, as opposed to just doing it with SEXPs.
Axem, for example, is already a "force to be reckoned with" in modding... I know he uses a few scripts (especially more recently), but he does a whole crapton in FRED with SEXPs. So.. a little less of the "SCRIPTING IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE" in my face, plz.
You like to use a mallet? Cool, I prefer a hammer.
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I fred, model, 'texture', convert, table, 'write' and draw.
**** no I'm not going to add even more to that by learning scripting when there are coders around that can actual wrap their head around code.
If you think that makes me a 'bad modder' or at least 'not worth my salt' then I can only tell you "**** you, go actually release something". Kthx
/rant
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You do realise you're arguing against a strawman here, right? Nuke never said that to be a good modder you need to be able to script. He never said that any modder worth his salt can script either, that was mjn's comment.
I think it's best if people calm down and try to grasp the point actually being made here.
Nuke said that being able to script in addition to other skills would make you a better modder. This is undeniably true. Being able to script, code, FRED, table, model or texture will make anyone who currently can't a better modder.
Just cause you can't do one of those doesn't make you a bad modder but only a fool could possibly argue if you gained those skills it wouldn't make you better.
I'm not arguing or against any of that. I do, however, take issue with the idea that I need to know how to script to be a good modder, to the extent that I'm supposed to do "general features" with scripting just because someone thinks that's the "right" way to do it, as opposed to just doing it with SEXPs.
Axem, for example, is already a "force to be reckoned with" in modding... I know he uses a few scripts (especially more recently), but he does a whole crapton in FRED with SEXPs. So.. a little less of the "SCRIPTING IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE" in my face, plz.
I guess I'm used to Nuke being somewhat tactless. :)
I can't say I really disagree with him though. I suspect that some of the stuff people like Axem do with SEXPs, would be done with scripts if people like him knew the scripting engine better. While they can be done with SEXPs, they can be done more easily in lua. It's similar to the way that I add things to the code now, that years ago I'd have figured out how to do in FRED, simply because it's easier than doing it in FRED.
Did I need to learn how to code in order to be a good FREDder? **** no! Has it made me a better FREDder? **** yes! As far as I know, there isn't anyone who FREDs, scripts and codes (although it looks like Axem is taking some steps to become the first). Would learning how to script make me a better FREDder? **** yes it would! In fact, this entire thread is making me realise that I've made somewhat of a mistake leaving the scripting up to other people when I should have learned how to do it myself.
While there is nothing wrong with building an elaborate control system in FRED (and **** knows I've done that enough times and I'll probably keep doing it), sometimes it might have been smarter to do that work in lua where it would be more portable.
I've lost count of the number of times I've seen the exact same events in multiple missions. Hell, you can even see examples in Diaspora (tube launches and combat landings are good examples). If you can do that in lua then, yes, it is objectively better to have done it in lua. If there is a bug, you only have to fix it in one place, rather than loading every single mission to fix it. Newbie FREDders can also easily take advantage of your work in a way that they can't if you FREDded it. The main reason tube launches and combat landings were left out of the Diaspora FRED walkthrough was that they were far too complicated to expect a newbie to work with. WCS has the same issue with their autopilot stuff.
And that's before we start talking about being able to share stuff cross-project. I suspect it's this sort of thing that Nuke was on about when he said you shouldn't use FRED for general features. Not the complicated stuff you do for only one mission.
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Makes sense. Though many of the coders double as the community's scripters.. so I'm not sure how much time it saves.
Because writing lua is faster and less error prone than writing C/C++. This is why there is a continual drive for higher and higher level languages.
In fact, thinking about this now, I am sure that :v: implemented the .tbl system primarily so that the game designers had a high level domain specific language to create the weapons, ships, etc, and secondarily so that the game designers could tweak the data without involving the "coders". The same applies to SEXPs.
Though recently, Admiral MS has found a ton of scripting functions to be broken. That leads me to wonder how much bugfixing needs to happen before the scripting system gets fixed up? However, I'm pretty sure that Admiral MS is working on fixing many of the issues he has found. At times though, he still seems somewhat discouraged with the scripting system currently.
Code that doesn't get used, rots. Plain and simple. The only way to know what is broken is to try it and find it. I have no doubt that Admiral MS is getting that stuff fixed, he certainly knows what he is doing.
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All the more reason for me to learn. I think m|m is the only SCP coder who regularly works with scripting at the moment.
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Well screw it then. I suppose ya'all can add this to the list of things I won't do that makes me a poor modder. You can be the jack of all trades and master of none. I have the things that I do well. I'd rather spend my time getting even better at those skills. But the next time someone comes asking for renders from me, I'll ask what they've done to learn to do rendering, because I submit that's a modding skill too. Everyone should learn everything so that no one has to waste their time helping others out.
BAM. Peace out. :doubt:
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Seriously mjn, why are you trying to make this into an argument? I never said you were a poor modder and I doubt Nuke said it either.
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Lastly, if you bump MAX_RED_ALERT_SUBSYSTEMS or SUBSYSTEM_MAX then the new pilot files are incompatible with the old ones, old pilots will probably crash FSO on loading unless you add code to handle both old and new values.
I take it's all regarding the main branch. What about Antipodes 8? Would pilot code problems mentioned also apply to the new pilot code, or does it allow increasing those values with minimal problems?
From a 10 min read through the Antipodes 8 code, I think this problem has been removed. The new approach is to write the number of used items (weapons/subsystems/etc) into the pilot campaign file, then read that number back and use it to determine how much data to read from the file. So while you still have a subsystems limit, the pilot file shouldn't break / be invalidated when this is changed.
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After over a year of scripting without taking a look at the FSO code I can say one thing: It's discouraging. Bad documentation and hard to guess results of many functions, unknown connection to other (usually known) FSO bugs and such stuff made me perceive many issues as bugs ("tons of them") that aren't. Since I started coding cause
The reason I got into C++ coding was that I wanted a feature and got bored of waiting for the SCP to add it.
I found only a few issues that are truly related to scripting code.
About all the possible modding skills including scripting - no one can learn everything and be really good at it. That's why bigger mods usually consist of a team rather than one person.
While knowing how to script makes this a great addition to being good in FRED it isn't necessary (and the other way round, I'm pretty bad at freding ;)). When I look at what scripts are being released many of them are general purpose and rather easy to use. There have been a few requests in the scripting forum that were answered by nuke or m!m creating such a script. I think it should be the goal to make most scripts that way which helps everyone who can't script.
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what happens a lot is a scripter goes in and adds a lua function to access some new feature. then there is a bugfix or a major overhaul of some system, and its very easy to overlook scripting when doing those, especially when you dont have a very large userbase submitting scripting related bug reports.
the last paragraph pretty much sums up my #1 problem when it comes to modding. i have to do every damn thing myself. in the olden days you wanted a ship you needed one model one texture and a couple tables, that swelled to a few models, several textures, several tables, and a bunch of other stuff. way too much stuff for one man. nuke does not play well with others.
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From a 10 min read through the Antipodes 8 code, I think this problem has been removed. The new approach is to write the number of used items (weapons/subsystems/etc) into the pilot campaign file, then read that number back and use it to determine how much data to read from the file. So while you still have a subsystems limit, the pilot file shouldn't break / be invalidated when this is changed.
Sounds like my idea will become more viable when this is commited then. If you need feedback, I've been using the new pilot code for a long time now, pretty much for everything (thanks to The_E providing updated builds with it to BP staff), and I haven't had a single issue with it yet. :yes:
I guess I'll remind you about this idea when Antipodes 8 gets into trunk.
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Seriously mjn, why are you trying to make this into an argument? I never said you were a poor modder and I doubt Nuke said it either.
You have failed to address that more important part of my post. Of which, I doubt you have a good answer for.
the last paragraph pretty much sums up my #1 problem when it comes to modding. i have to do every damn thing myself. in the olden days you wanted a ship you needed one model one texture and a couple tables, that swelled to a few models, several textures, several tables, and a bunch of other stuff. way too much stuff for one man. nuke does not play well with others.
See? I was right. We should learn script so that nuke doesn't have to help us anymore. Good philosophy for a community.
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You have failed to address that more important part of my post. Of which, I doubt you have a good answer for.
If you want to have a rational, sensible discussion about how to be a better modder, I'm more than happy to respond. But if you're going to put words in my mouth and act like I haven't treated you with the respect you deserve, when I've gone out my way to try to make sure I haven't said anything that could be construed as disrespectful, I don't see much point in it. It's just going to give you more ammunition to claim I'm somehow saying you're a poor modder.
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See? I was right. We should learn script so that nuke doesn't have to help us anymore. Good philosophy for a community.
Huh? So Nuke speaks for all of SCP...? For all of Hard Light...?
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I can't say I really disagree with him though. I suspect that some of the stuff people like Axem do with SEXPs, would be done with scripts if people like him knew the scripting engine better. While they can be done with SEXPs, they can be done more easily in lua. It's similar to the way that I add things to the code now, that years ago I'd have figured out how to do in FRED, simply because it's easier than doing it in FRED.
Did I need to learn how to code in order to be a good FREDder? **** no! Has it made me a better FREDder? **** yes! As far as I know, there isn't anyone who FREDs, scripts and codes (although it looks like Axem is taking some steps to become the first). Would learning how to script make me a better FREDder? **** yes it would! In fact, this entire thread is making me realise that I've made somewhat of a mistake leaving the scripting up to other people when I should have learned how to do it myself.
Well I do disagree.
If your definition of FREDing is nothing more than setting up (complex) events then I'm sure scripting will help to some degree. But learning scripting isn't going to make anyone better at mission design, or all those other little things that come with making a mission. I for one think that Battuta has a much better grasp at mission design than most of us here. But I don't see him coding or scripting.
I think its kinda detrimental to the community to have this mentality of "if you want something done, do *everything* yourself." (even if for the most part that is exactly what ive been doing). Especially when you've got excellent scripters like m!m and Admiral MS etc around. Or a guy who makes these awesome art things like mjn.mixael. There's a pretty good reason why the game industry has specialists assigned to one task they excel at. Learning extra disciplines is for the most part only going to substract from the time you can spend on getting good at your other talents. (Well its cool if you wanna be a jack of all trades I guess)
That's my two euro cents on it.
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I think its kinda detrimental to the community to have this mentality of "if you want something done, do *everything* yourself." (even if for the most part that is exactly what ive been doing). Especially when you've got excellent scripters like m!m and Admiral MS etc around. Or a guy who makes these awesome art things like mjn.mixael.
This. A thousand times this. There's room for "generalists", who can do a lot of things more or less equally well, and there's room for specialists. There is no reason for one side to get angry at the other, or even suggest that one side is Doing It Wrong.
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Well I do disagree.
If your definition of FREDing is nothing more than setting up (complex) events then I'm sure scripting will help to some degree. But learning scripting isn't going to make anyone better at mission design, or all those other little things that come with making a mission. I for one think that Battuta has a much better grasp at mission design than most of us here. But I don't see him coding or scripting.
And are you seriously going to tell me that Battuta's impressive grasp on mission design comes from his grinding out mission after mission in FRED and has absolutely nothing to do with his spending years on improving as a story writer? It's precisely his diversified skill set that makes him a good FREDder.
If instead of talking about scripting, Nuke has said that attending a writer's seminar would improve my FREDding, I might have agreed just as strongly. Are you telling me you wouldn't?
I think its kinda detrimental to the community to have this mentality of "if you want something done, do *everything* yourself."
Where am I saying that one person has to do *everything* though? I guess I've not made this clear but I'm talking about learning the fundamentals so you know exactly when to leave it to one of the experts. I know absolutely nothing about scripting right now. I couldn't write a "Hello World" script in lua. When I had to use script-eval in a Diaspora mission, I had to ask Axem how to do it. Knowing how to do it myself would obviously mean I had a better grasp of how to use scripting in my missions, automatically making me better than I was before.
Especially when you've got excellent scripters like m!m and Admiral MS etc around. Or a guy who makes these awesome art things like mjn.mixael. There's a pretty good reason why the game industry has specialists assigned to one task they excel at. Learning extra disciplines is for the most part only going to substract from the time you can spend on getting good at your other talents. (Well its cool if you wanna be a jack of all trades I guess)
Again, it depends on the skill level you have already, and the skill level you want to attain in the new skill. I'm already a good FREDder. I don't think it's arrogant for me to say that much at least. :p Spending 10 hours more on FREDding would improve my overall skill set by only a tiny amount. Spending the same 10 hours on scripting would give me a reasonable understanding of the basics, giving me lots of new tools I could use in my FREDding and allowing me to ask people like m!m and Admiral MS for a script to do exactly what I want in scripting terms rather than in vague English.
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Well I do disagree.
If your definition of FREDing is nothing more than setting up (complex) events then I'm sure scripting will help to some degree. But learning scripting isn't going to make anyone better at mission design, or all those other little things that come with making a mission. I for one think that Battuta has a much better grasp at mission design than most of us here. But I don't see him coding or scripting.
And are you seriously going to tell me that Battuta's impressive grasp on mission design comes from his grinding out mission after mission in FRED and has absolutely nothing to do with his spending years on improving as a story writer? It's precisely his diversified skill set that makes him a good FREDder.
If instead of talking about scripting, Nuke has said that attending a writer's seminar would improve my FREDding, I might have agreed just as strongly. Are you telling me you wouldn't?
Sure, I totally said or implied that! Battuta does nothing but grind out missions all day everyday after all! :wtf:
And I am again going to strongly disagree with you here, being a good story teller has very little to do with being a good mission designer. If anything, those two skills tend to compete rather than cooperate. As game history has proven plenty of times, gameplay can seriously suffer when a writer wants to tell a story using a game. And likewise the other way around when strong gameplay leaves little room for telling a great story. Battuta may be a good writer and a good FREDer, but I really don't think he is a good FREDer BECAUSE he is a good writer. He does however combine those both skills to good effect in some of his last missions I've seen.
In the same vein, I like to consider myself to be a FREDer/mission designer of some esteem and as I'm sure Droid803 would gladly atest to, I ain't exactly the best of writers. :p
I understand the point you are trying to make but you seem to be banging mostly incompatible skillsets together and claiming that by learning to fly a jetfighter you'll automatically become a better busdriver.
Where am I saying that one person has to do *everything* though? I guess I've not made this clear but I'm talking about learning the fundamentals so you know exactly when to leave it to one of the experts. I know absolutely nothing about scripting right now. I couldn't write a "Hello World" script in lua. When I had to use script-eval in a Diaspora mission, I had to ask Axem how to do it. Knowing how to do it myself would obviously mean I had a better grasp of how to use scripting in my missions, automatically making me better than I was before.
I dunno
In fact, this entire thread is making me realise that I've made somewhat of a mistake leaving the scripting up to other people when I should have learned how to do it myself.
That kinda seemed to imply otherwise.
Again, it depends on the skill level you have already, and the skill level you want to attain in the new skill. I'm already a good FREDder. I don't think it's arrogant for me to say that much at least. :p Spending 10 hours more on FREDding would improve my overall skill set by only a tiny amount. Spending the same 10 hours on scripting would give me a reasonable understanding of the basics, giving me lots of new tools I could use in my FREDding and allowing me to ask people like m!m and Admiral MS for a script to do exactly what I want in scripting terms rather than in vague English.
Sure I'll give you that.
However, that doesn't seemed quite what nuke was on about to me. I'm more getting the impression that he meant "Learn to script so you can stop bugging coders because you can just script it yourself!". And that is just bull****.
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I understand the point you are trying to make but you seem to be banging mostly incompatible skillsets together and claiming that by learning to fly a jetfighter you'll automatically become a better busdriver.
I'll leave it for Battuta to say what does or doesn't make him a great FREDder.
Where am I saying that one person has to do *everything* though? I guess I've not made this clear but I'm talking about learning the fundamentals so you know exactly when to leave it to one of the experts. I know absolutely nothing about scripting right now. I couldn't write a "Hello World" script in lua. When I had to use script-eval in a Diaspora mission, I had to ask Axem how to do it. Knowing how to do it myself would obviously mean I had a better grasp of how to use scripting in my missions, automatically making me better than I was before.
I dunno
In fact, this entire thread is making me realise that I've made somewhat of a mistake leaving the scripting up to other people when I should have learned how to do it myself.
That kinda seemed to imply otherwise.
I was speaking for myself. I didn't mean everyone has made that mistake or I would have said that.
Sure I'll give you that.
However, that doesn't seemed quite what nuke was on about to me. I'm more getting the impression that he meant "Learn to script so you can stop bugging coders because you can just script it yourself!". And that is just bull****.
I'm saying learn enough about scripting so you know *when* to bug the coders and *when* to bug a scripter. I suspect Nuke was saying something similar. I doubt he meant everyone should learn scripting, that's just hyperbole that's been taken way too literally. I think he just meant that everyone should learn when to use scripting.
The idea that everyone should learn to script is ridiculous. But the idea that everyone should make complicated structures that they then have to transfer to every single mission because they don't want to use a script (theirs or someone else's) is also ridiculous, and there's a ****load of that going on still.
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I still use a lot of copy-and-pasted large SEXP blocks because I can't control LUA well enough via the events editor to have it do everything I want.
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Sounds like something we should make an effort to improve then. :)
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See? I was right. We should learn script so that nuke doesn't have to help us anymore. Good philosophy for a community.
i never said that. i always read the scripting board and modding boards scanning for things that i can help with. if someone brings up something i know about il pitch in with scripting (or modding) advice, and if you catch me on a good day i may even write some script for you or help you with your own scripts. just because im not on your mod team does not mean that i haven't done anything for the cause. im not about to bail from the freespace community just because i dont like to join mod teams and dont really generate much content these days, and most certainly not because a few people disagree with the way i do things or find my advice useless. im here because i believe in the cause and want to see it progress and im willing to put up with a few asshats if need be.
we all want to see the engine advance and be the best mod platform we can make it. just because i prefer to be a generalist isnt hurting your mod. just because i offer the suggestion that a thing would be better implemented with scripting instead of bothering the coders about it isnt gonna make the community collapse. its your time your putting in so use it as you see fit. i have my concerns about feature creep, and i certainly have my concerns about the under utilization of scripting in favor of code side features (and really just that, if you accomplish a complicated feature with 1337 fredding skills, good for you for not bothering the coders with it). after putting in so much time and effort to help improve scripting and promoting its use its quite disappointing that im being met with so much hostility when i suggest that more people learn scripting.
I still use a lot of copy-and-pasted large SEXP blocks because I can't control LUA well enough via the events editor to have it do everything I want.
Sounds like something we should make an effort to improve then. :)
thats kind of a thing i think scripting would handle quite well. you can essentially stick your events into a text block and simoply have lua parse it all to events when the mission starts. so you can load a large number of events with a single script eval. this would centralize the feature and facilitate event reuse. there are some issues where the format that scripting likes to read events from differes from the way they are stored in the mission file, so there would be some parsing code (lua really shines with text manipulation). this is one of those cases where i wish i was a better fredder so i could give you a more solid framework for how to accomplish that.
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its quite disappointing that im being met with so much hostility when i suggest that more people learn scripting.
Maybe its because that's all you ever do.
99% of your posts either have "Already done that with scripts years ago" or "You can do that with scripts" or "You should learn to script" in them. Did you seriously never noticed this yourself? At some point it stops being 'helpful friendly advice' and just becomes annoyingly preachy.
You also seem to have the need to be concerned about how modders are 'bothering' the coders with 'needless feature requests'. Even though you do not have any direct stake in this. Why does it bother you so much if there is a new feature implented code side (that may have been do able with scripting) that makes the life of modders easier? Are you modding a briliant campaign that is suffering because of it? Does it endanger your scripting adventures directly? Are you one of the coders being 'bugged'? Is it reducing the quality of your freespace gaming time in any way shape or form? How does feature creep even directly affect you? Are you desperately waiting for that new release because you are about to release something?
I really liked it when you coded the additions to the particle spew code. I still use that stuff today! But all your unreleased and unfinished scripts that you keep saying you've done are about as useful as having a corpse in your refrigerator. To quote mjn.mixael
I'm just saying that many of your posts start off with "I did this way back when in nukemod with scripting. It's easy peesy if you just WALL OF TEXT" Honestly, I've kind of started just skimming your posts (if I read them at all anymore) because I'm bored of reading how the community should have implemented your stuff back in '06 or whatever.
After a while its hard to take you serious anymore.
I'm saying learn enough about scripting so you know *when* to bug the coders and *when* to bug a scripter. I suspect Nuke was saying something similar. I doubt he meant everyone should learn scripting, that's just hyperbole that's been taken way too literally. I think he just meant that everyone should learn when to use scripting.
I'll leave it up to nuke to confirm or deny that then. Either way it doesn't seem like he made himself very clear on this.
The idea that everyone should learn to script is ridiculous. But the idea that everyone should make complicated structures that they then have to transfer to every single mission because they don't want to use a script (theirs or someone else's) is also ridiculous, and there's a ****load of that going on still.
The road of least resistance.
I could just copy paste a block sexp from mission file to mission file within a minute. Oooorrr I could frustrate the crap out of my self spending hours trying to grasp the basics of scripting. I don't like looking at code, my brain simply just turns off when I see it.
Either way you get the same result. So why does it matter? If it's all the same to the player ingame, then it just becomes a matter of feeling good about yourself having acomplished the same thing in a slightly more efficient way.
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thats kind of a thing i think scripting would handle quite well. you can essentially stick your events into a text block and simoply have lua parse it all to events when the mission starts. so you can load a large number of events with a single script eval. this would centralize the feature and facilitate event reuse. there are some issues where the format that scripting likes to read events from differes from the way they are stored in the mission file, so there would be some parsing code (lua really shines with text manipulation). this is one of those cases where i wish i was a better fredder so i could give you a more solid framework for how to accomplish that.
This would be awesome. The trick here is to be able to load the same event blocks, but alter the arguments listed in these events...which I have no idea how to do.
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thats kind of a thing i think scripting would handle quite well. you can essentially stick your events into a text block and simoply have lua parse it all to events when the mission starts. so you can load a large number of events with a single script eval. this would centralize the feature and facilitate event reuse. there are some issues where the format that scripting likes to read events from differes from the way they are stored in the mission file, so there would be some parsing code (lua really shines with text manipulation). this is one of those cases where i wish i was a better fredder so i could give you a more solid framework for how to accomplish that.
This would be awesome. The trick here is to be able to load the same event blocks, but alter the arguments listed in these events...which I have no idea how to do.
that should be somewhat easy considering the events would all be text. it would be easy to say replace all instances of '<ship1>' with galactica for example. theoretically you could then load the events with a function call containing those arguments. but if you had a long list of ship names or variables, you would end up with a script eval that just wouldn't fit. if you had a long list of variables you could just load them into an arguments table and then use a table as an argument. you could also set it up as a state machine where you set the arguments with a bunch of individual function calls and then have a call to commit the changes once you've set all the parameters. could also go with the stack approach where you have a few generic functions whos job it is to add new arguments to the stack (a lua table internally but the fredder doesnt need to know that). each time you call it it adds those arguments to a list and when you call the function to load your events block, it uses that list for its arguments. you would have another function to clear the list as well.
we will call these functions addArgs() newArgs() and loadEvents() will load a set of events from a text file (the name of which would be its only argument). when called it is assumed that the arguments stack contains all the parameters needed by the event block. there would probibly be some error checking to make sure the arguments are in the right format and there are the correct number. i could then do some things for convenience, like make them vararg, so you could add as many arguments as you can fit, and they will stack in order. i could also make newArgs take arguments so that it acts like addArgs, but clears the arguments before loading its own. this would reduce the number of script evals neccisary. so the evals would contain something like:
addArgs("someshipname", 42)
addArgs("anothershipname")
loadEvents("eventfilename")
newArgs("newshipname", 21)
addArgs("averylonglongshipname") <-this is the longest thing you can put into a script eval iirc
addArgs("shortshipname", 69)
loadEvents("eventfilename2")
this loads 2 sets of events from 2 different files where the first event takes 3 args and the second 5. note that after the first event file is loaded the aruments are cleared with newArgs() and the new arguments are added in the same call
figure events would be loaded from text file for ease of use, which would contain another the events, and probibly some meta, containing info about how many arguments are expected and what type. this is nice because you only need to know 3 functions.
again i dont have any foreknowledge about the size of the events blocks, the diversity of data types those blocks use or anything like that. this is where a lack of fred knowhow really limits what i can do. but im tempted to figure it all out just to make spoon eat his words.
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Either way you get the same result. So why does it matter? If it's all the same to the player ingame, then it just becomes a matter of feeling good about yourself having acomplished the same thing in a slightly more efficient way.
See how many coders you'll get to agree with cutting and pasting code instead of making a new function. The argument in favour of cutting and pasting is the exact same one you just made.
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Apples and oranges.
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Yeah, they're both fruit. :p
What you appear to have completely missed is that solving the problem with a script gives you a solution that is much easier to maintain. If there is a bug, you fix the script and everything is fine. With your method you have to now fix the events in several missions. And then you expose yourself to a new bug. Fixing it incorrectly in one of the missions. By the time you're editing the 10th mission, it's pretty easy to get sloppy and edit the wrong event or some other stupid bug.
That's why I asked the question about code. It's the exact same reason coders don't copy and paste.
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That's why I asked the question about code. It's the exact same reason coders don't copy and paste.
You mean that is why they shouldn't copy and paste. How many bugs have we fixed in FSO that are the result of copy and paste?
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There is a very simple and fundamental difference that you seem to have missed. But I'll elaborate it for you.
There are at least a dozend people coding the engine. You want to optimize the process as much as possible so everyone is on the same page and things run smoothly. There's also a buttload of dependancies and hierarchies and what not to that come into play.
Now how often do you see a dozend of people working on a single mission? Hell, Diaspora is probably the only project out there that has so many FREDers doing so few missions. In most cases there is only going to be one person resonsible for maintaining his own stuff. Unlike coding a big engine where you aren't just maintaining the things you wrote yourself.
You also have some funky logic going on there. If you are going to be copy pasting sexp blocks then all ten missions are going to have the same bug. Fix it on one, copy paste it to the rest of the mission. Presto, you have now spend a wooping 1 minute fixing the bug over all 10 missions. It's a trivial amount of work that I'd much rather do than break my head trying to understand a script, It would just bring me a lot of frustration and I'd still be dependent on an actual scripter to add functions to it. Cause even with a basic understanding, it'll take a bigger scripterman to expand on the script.
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There is a very simple and fundamental difference that you seem to have missed. But I'll elaborate it for you.
There are at least a dozend people coding the engine. You want to optimize the process as much as possible so everyone is on the same page and things run smoothly. There's also a buttload of dependancies and hierarchies and what not to that come into play.
I'm talking about coding in general. If I was talking about FSO or the SCP, I'd have said so. Even as a single programmer, working on code that is pretty simple it still is a bad practice to copy and paste. The fact that you thought I was talking about FSO shows how little you've understood of where I'm coming from.
But I think I've reached the point where it's pointless to try to convince you. If you're convinced that your FREDding techniques are better than mine, feel free to continue them. If you are completely determined to continue a bad habit in spite of someone (with no vested interest either way) trying to get you to quit, and you're determined to argue with me rather than thinking that maybe I have a point, and just trying to understand it, I don't see much point in continuing.
You mean that is why they shouldn't copy and paste. How many bugs have we fixed in FSO that are the result of copy and paste?
Fair point. :D
As someone who spends most of his time working in Sexp.cpp, I shouldn't have needed reminding of that. ;)
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If you're convinced that your FREDding techniques are better than mine, feel free to continue them.
It's not a case of 'better' (I know, shocking revelation huh?) Its whatever works for a person.
If you are completely determined to continue a bad habit in spite of someone (with no vested interest either way) trying to get you to quit, and you're determined to argue with me rather than thinking that maybe I have a point, and just trying to understand it, I don't see much point in continuing.
Your face is a bad habit (Yeah, i've given up)
You seem to be convinced that only your way is the right way. You're just being a completely arrogant douche right now.
Funny, I see no point trying to argue with someone so clearly arrogant and jerkish as you either!
You keep saying "You don't see my point!" when its actually clear its just you who doesn't get my point. But reading comprehension doesn't seem to be on your priority list when you're so vested in just trying 'to be right'.
An other fun day with Karajorma.
E: I've decided to just put you on ignore from now on. Since It's always seems to end up like this.
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Oh no Spoon. I get your point. I simply disagree with it.
But you clearly didn't get mine. And that's a pity really. Cause it might have saved you time and trouble in the future.
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Karajorma: "You clearly don't get my point. You can't read. This conversation is pointless. I give up."
Spoon: "You clearly don't get my point. You can't read. This conversation is pointless. I give up."
Karajorma: *Continues conversation*
Me: "lol, saw that comin."
While I definitely agree with Spoon on this one.. you are both very clearly arguing just to be right now. +5 for Karajorma if he gets of his high horse and admits it for once.
EDIT: inb4givemeexamples
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I'll indulge you for this one last post. Since you just seem so intend in proving you are 'right' and that 'only the great karajorma gets it and you are WRONG'
You don't actually get it.
Different methods for different people, what seems ineffective for you isn't by default ineffective for other people.
What I fix in one hour with copy pasting in notepad, you fix in studying scripting for hours and getting adept enough in it so you can either script your own things. (But if you don't, you'll be spending a lot of time fiddling your thumbs waiting for a scripter to take a look at the script for you. Time you could have spend just fixing the problem outright with the fred skills you already know). In the end It doesn't matter which method you use, be it a script or a sexp block. It's all the same thing for the players.
Your point is pretty much just: "This method is more effective because you only have a single point to fix it in. Your method is WRONG and A BAD HABIT. You are a worse FREDer because of it. It doesn't matter if scripting isn't for you, you should use my methods because I am RIGHT in all things."
I've used copy pasting of sexp blocks very recently with the development of the soonish to be released WoD stranded. It was easy peachy and very effective, also pretty much bug free.
By your narrow minded view I would have been better off doing a deep study of scripting and doing all this with a script instead. Even though that would have just added months more of production time and detracting of me actually getting the missions done. And again, in the end it has exactly the same result. Just that the players actually get to play it months ahead in time because I did things with sexp instead of scripts. FREDers gonna FRED.
Now your next counter point would probably be "But you'll benefit from it in the future." possible.
But I can also just stick with this tried and true method that *works* and I feel comfortable with.
Have you gotten my point yet?
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Spoon: You may want to look in the mirror. Everything you are accusing Karajorma of doing you are also doing.
Spoon, Karajorma: I think you have both established that you disagree with each other. Fine. I think this was established last night, so take a week, think about it, and then come back to this discussion, hopefully less vested in having the last word or having the "one true style".
After thinking about it, maybe there is a solution in the "middle" ground that is better than both sides.
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I'm not argueing that my style is the 'one true style' or the 'only way to do things'. Just that it works just as well for a FREDer that doesn't know (or doesn't want to take the effort to learn) scripting. Karajorma however seems utterly convinced that scripting is going to be superior in every single way.
For me its just an other method of doing things, as I said many times before now, if the end result is the same who gives a kitten? I'm not the one argueing that if you don't take up scripting you'll be a lesser FREDer for it. With bad habits.
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Have you gotten my point yet?
You *still* haven't gotten mine? Who said *you* have to learn scripting? I flat out said that was a ridiculous idea and you quoted me! :p
I would have thought the same person who pointed out that it's a bad thing to try to do everything yourself would have realised I mentioned several times that the point is to know when to stand aside and let *someone else* do something if you really want to have the best version.
While I definitely agree with Spoon on this one.. you are both very clearly arguing just to be right now. +5 for Karajorma if he gets of his high horse and admits it for once.
While part of me dislikes being wrong, for the most part I'm still posting cause Spoon keeps misrepresenting my argument and I dislike having someone say I said something when I know I didn't. He still keeps insisting that I'm arguing that everyone should learn to script. Which isn't my point at all. Funnily enough, you kept making the exact same argument and you agree with him.
Could have seen that one coming too. :p
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I'm not argueing that my style is the 'one true style' or the 'only way to do things'. Just that it works just as well for a FREDer that doesn't know (or doesn't want to take the effort to learn) scripting. Karajorma however seems utterly convinced that scripting is going to be superior in every single way.
For me its just an other method of doing things, as I said many times before now, if the end result is the same who gives a kitten? I'm not the one argueing that if you don't take up scripting you'll be a lesser FREDer for it. With bad habits.
You are absolutely correct. No one gives **** about what you do with you time.
However dismissing out of hand tools that were implemented to save time (from both a development standpoint and bug fixing standpoint) is just dumb. This is like refusing to use FRED at all. Or a coder refusing to use an IDE. You certainly don't have to use either. But they were both implemented to save time.
However, I am not saying everyone must know how to use every tool. They should acknowledge that they exist and be open to using them if they are the best tool, though. And to tie this back to the original reason that this mini-war was started, anyone should not flatly dismiss solutions that were built using a tool that they don't know how to use, such as the suggestion that this subsystem options idea would be better implemented with lua rather than code.
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Yeah you know what, I have no ****ing clue what exactly is being argued at this point anymore.
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Then ask! :p That's what I meant when I said I got your point but I didn't think you were getting mine.
1) For someone proficient in both, scripting is much better than SEXPs for features that are meant to appear in multiple missions. I covered the main reasons (reusable easily, easier bug fixing etc).
2) For someone who isn't proficient there's nothing wrong with using SEXPs but a scripted solution would still be better. That doesn't mean you should learn to script in order to implement one. But if you can get hold of a scripted solution and can get someone to implement it for you, you should use it.
3) Everyone should learn enough about scripting to be able to decide when is a good idea to use them. This doesn't necessarily mean learning how to actually script. Just when to actually say "You know what, I should ask someone for a script for this before I try to SEXP it myself"
Now, any objection to that?
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Nice job rewording your whole argument so that you can't possibly be wrong. #Sawthatcomintoo
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Nice job trying to act like you weren't completely wrong about what I meant. Saw that coming as well. :p
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you are both very clearly arguing just to be right now. +5 for Karajorma if he gets of his high horse and admits it for once.
Looks like you won't get your +5. But obvious is obvious.
EDIT: inb4karamustgetthelastword
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Nice job rewording your whole argument so that you can't possibly be wrong. #Sawthatcomintoo
Or instead of the snark. This could be a learning experience for all by you stating the side that you were arguing? Both sides can play this game.
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Oh I'm totally arguing with YOU just to be right. I actually had a point with Spoon though. That's why I kept at it. If he still can't understand it after I restated it as clearly as possible rather than just continuing the argument, well, I tried. Probably not all his fault. I wasn't as clear as I could have been cause I was arguing and clarity is usually the first victim in an argument.
With you it's just about being childish and silly so I'm stopping now. :p
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It's not even spring yet...
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Is this the part where I say something and then you respond, not actually stopping?
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Enough.
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I was half way done typing this when E closed the thread.
Then ask! :p That's what I meant when I said I got your point but I didn't think you were getting mine.
1) For someone proficient in both, scripting is much better than SEXPs for features that are meant to appear in multiple missions. I covered the main reasons (reusable easily, easier bug fixing etc).
Sure.
2) For someone who isn't proficient there's nothing wrong with using SEXPs but a scripted solution would still be better. That doesn't mean you should learn to script in order to implement one.
Uh huh.
But if you can get hold of a scripted solution and can get someone to implement it for you, you should use it.
That's what I've doing a few times already (Well, through Axem since he was coolcat enough to contact m!m about it). Having a community with specialized skills is neato.
I do have my concerns with this though. What if the scripter for whatever reason becomes unavailable for a long period of time? etc.
3) Everyone should learn enough about scripting to be able to decide when is a good idea to use them. This doesn't necessarily mean learning how to actually script. Just when to actually say "You know what, I should ask someone for a script for this before I try to SEXP it myself"
How would you suggest someone goes about learning this? This sounds more like intuition that comes with FREDing experience rather than understanding how scripting works.
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I'll leave this one open since I'm not gonna argue (promise).
That's what I've doing a few times already (Well, through Axem since he was coolcat enough to contact m!m about it). Having a community with specialized skills is neato.
I do have my concerns with this though. What if the scripter for whatever reason becomes unavailable for a long period of time? etc.
Worst case scenario is that you end up having to implement it in FRED. Which is what you were going to do anyway. More likely you can find someone else to help you. Especially if it's just a matter of fixing an existing script.
How would you suggest someone goes about learning this? This sounds more like intuition that comes with FREDing experience rather than understanding how scripting works.
Keep an ear to the ground for new scripting features same as you do for new FREDding ones. At least look in the scripting forum once in a while (I know that I've ignored it until now, I doubt I'm the only one). I try to keep an ear open about what new modding features exist, even though I'm not a modeller or tabler and will never personally use them. I'm just saying that scripting should be getting about the same level of respect even from people don't script.
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3) Everyone should learn enough about scripting to be able to decide when is a good idea to use them. This doesn't necessarily mean learning how to actually script. Just when to actually say "You know what, I should ask someone for a script for this before I try to SEXP it myself"
How would you suggest someone goes about learning this? This sounds more like intuition that comes with FREDing experience rather than understanding how scripting works.
Keep an ear to the ground for new scripting features same as you do for new FREDding ones. At least look in the scripting forum once in a while (I know that I've ignored it until now, I doubt I'm the only one).
This definitely! Scripting forum isn't that busy so it won't hurt to look into it sometimes. Pretty much every big standalone script has its own thread where you can give feedback or ask questions about it.
My next suggestion would be to take a look into scripting.html. As it has been said several times you don't have to understand how it is working but what is possible. Skim through it and look for interesting sections and functions. Most of them have an explanation that someone who is good at freding (and partially modding in general) will understand. Maybe you find something interesting and remember it later when working on a mission. Keep in mind that you can use every sexp in scripting.
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i figure if i convince at least a few modders google a lua tutorial or peruse the scripting board, then its all worth it. i really dont care that the very act of suggesting that modders learn a new skill is sometimes met with great resentment from certain individuals. but if you want to learn the lua language, there are tutorials all over the net. also if you ever want to have a career in game design, lua knowhow will certainly look good on your resume (a lot of games use lua these days).
as for how lua pertains to freespace scripting, scripting.html is pretty much api documentation. it also helps to have a good understanding about how the non-scripting parts of the scripting tables are set up for which the wiki entry on the scripting.tbl/*-sct.tbm is useful (skip to the part on conditional hooks, and id only use global hooks when doing tcs where the possibility of script stacking is removed or reduced). you can always ask on the scripting forum for help if you dont understand how something works.
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The problem is you suggest this as if people aren't already doing it. Since you don't play anything you have no idea how much scripting is already being used.
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its probibly just my perception based on my stuff that gets used. which sad to say most of it doesn't. also big mod teams usually keep their secrets secret so they aren't plastering the scripting board with showcases of their accomplishments. and i havent been playing mods lately, but more out of waiting for 3.7 so i can haz all teh shinys currently in development. there has been an increase in activity on the scripting board the last couple of years and this is probibly due to mod uptake of scripting. its nice to see scripting finally starting to receive the appreciation it deserves. but perceptions aside im still gonna promote the use of scripting. if that makes me a dick, then oh well.
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Big mod teams don't keep their secrets secret any more. BP has been open-sourcing pretty much everything. Droid does the same.
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Stuff like the screencam script originally comes from BtA. We're big kids too ! :<
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Yeah - totally true. Inferno is also pretty generous as well (and always has been.)
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Anyway in closing:
Karajorma and I were both to blame to some degree. I feel Karajorma really didn't convey his message well and I also think that he misinterpreted what nuke was saying (I am still certain that he wants pretty much every modder to invest in learning scripting. And not just learn when to learn when a script might be useful to acomplish something wihtout sexps.). What also doesn't help is when Kara strides in on his high horse and starts sounding really condescending and by times just plain arrogant. Which made me feel like responding in kind.
Where I am to blame is that I apparantly need to learn how exactly Karajorma's posts need to be read. I apparantly have a tendency of drawing conclusions or assumptions out of his posts that he himself did not intended to say at all. I guess his posts are a lot more literal then what I seem to be reading in them. Which leads me to believe things about his position that probably just aren't there. So I'm at fault for not double reading his posts carefully before hitting the reply button.
For the most part we actually seem to be agreeing with each other (I still stand by my point that you don't need a script for everything and that copy pasting a sexp block is a completely viable and proper method). So it was an argument about practically nothing I guess.
its probibly just my perception based on my stuff that gets used. which sad to say most of it doesn't. also big mod teams usually keep their secrets secret so they aren't plastering the scripting board with showcases of their accomplishments. and i havent been playing mods lately, but more out of waiting for 3.7 so i can haz all teh shinys currently in development. there has been an increase in activity on the scripting board the last couple of years and this is probibly due to mod uptake of scripting. its nice to see scripting finally starting to receive the appreciation it deserves. but perceptions aside im still gonna promote the use of scripting. if that makes me a dick, then oh well.
Nuke, you are so out of touch with modern times. Why should we take anything you say seriously anymore?
You have no idea how many scripts are being used in modern mods, maybe you should try playing some?, yet here you are making dumb claims that 'most of the scripts don't get used' and you are intentionally keeping yourself in the dark for years to come if you are going to wait for 3.7 (just look how incredibly long the .14 RC cycle is...)
As for keeping secrets: Remember the flaming debris script?
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I'll agree that I should have made it a hell of a lot clearer that I was understanding your point (and even partly agreed with it) when I only disagreed with parts of it. I'll try to be more clear in the future but that tends to add another 200 words whenever I do it. :p
For the most part we actually seem to be agreeing with each other (I still stand by my point that you don't need a script for everything and that copy pasting a sexp block is a completely viable and proper method). So it was an argument about practically nothing I guess.
If it's in just one mission, I wouldn't suggest using scripting unless you know how to do it yourself (and maybe not even then!). When it's in a couple of missions, it's objectively better to use a script but that doesn't mean it's worth the hassle if you can't do it. When it's in a whole bunch, a script would definitely have been better so it's something you probably should have tried before deciding to do it via SEXPs.
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you go ahead and think that. just because i dont dedicate every waking hour to modding and/or playing freespace doesn't mean im that far behind. i like to do other things you know, mod other games, work on my game engine(s), or my multitude of other hobbies. doesn't mean i wont occasionally dedicate a week to hammering out nukemod bugs or or add new features to my scripts. so what if im not on the bleeding edge anymore? whats it to you?
on the other hand one does not simply forget how to code and im pretty handy with lua inside or outside of freespace (i use lua all the time, my prototype game engine is entirely lua, and i use lua scripts to communicate with my hardware projects over serial/usb/ip/whatever). and face it thanks to the slow uptake of scripting and lack of scripting talent in the community (im not saying it doesn't exist, just that it doesn't exist in great enough proportion to other skillets, you might have one scripter for every 10 fredders for example). the api doesnt change as rapidly as other parts of the code. so i am more than qualified to offer advice on scripting.
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So basically scripting is ****ing awesome and everyone would be better off learning it, but if they don't learn it they still get to be respected human beings and so on?
That's kind of the gist I want to take from this thread...
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jesus christ spoon, if you're going to apologise in such a backhanded way you're better off just not apologising at all
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It's the thread that keeps on giving!
Yo Nuke if you're keeping up with events maybe you noticed a whole bunch of scripting getting used around the 3.6.12 release? This was not just an example of scripts cutting across a lot of different design sectors - flaming debris and flashy warhead detonations on the graphical side, capship command scripts on the gameplay side, title screen scripts on the presentation/UI side - but many of these scripts were developed by mod teams and then donated to the MediaVPs for immediate public use.
I just feel like a lot of your complaints are based on not following what's actually going on with the community and its products.
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you go ahead and think that.
I certainly will, since you never give me any reason to think otherwise.
just because i dont dedicate every waking hour to modding and/or playing freespace doesn't mean im that far behind.
All the signs seem to point the other way.
so what if im not on the bleeding edge anymore? whats it to you?
Its annoying when you are out of touch yet keep posting about things you are behind on. Especially when you made it clear that you have no intentions on actually getting up to date with what the modding community is actually doing and using scripts for.
so i am more than qualified to offer advice on scripting.
Not if you aren't actually going to contribute anything of value
Saying "I did this years ago with scripting" doesn't count.
@Phantomhoover
You are dumb. I am not giving a 'backhanded' apology for anything. I just cleared matters up. Learn to read and stop trolling kthx.
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Admiral MS' checkpoint script was designed for BtA based on fred-sized checkpoints and is now being used by multiple teams!
The turret hotkey script got requested for BP but should see broad use!
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BtA is also using the turret hotkey script, as well as the escort reticle script.
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Basically if a script gets released and it's useful odds are it'll get used.
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All that without me having to spend time learning to script.
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Basically we are just amazing and incredible.
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I'm loving the escort reticle script, except for
- Alt name isn't being read, the class name is always the default
- Brackets are not sensitive to change-IFF-color sexps (they always stay as the default team color)
Both of which apparently can't be handled by the current scripting API :(
I guess it's probably because I'm the only one who actually uses the change-IFF-color SEXP.
yes here is my stealth attempt to get these things implemented...
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I use change-IFF-color often. Though in the case of the escort reticle script, I don't want them to change color. :p
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This thread has shown a ceaseless capacity to devolve into personal attacks and nastiness. If you want to talk about changing scripts, start a new thread, but this one should never have been reopened.
And I really don't care that the last few posts are calm - it should have been locked on page four. :rolleyes: