Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on June 18, 2002, 02:46:00 am

Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 18, 2002, 02:46:00 am
The suicide bombing this morning blew up a bus that had just come from my neighborhood, Gilo. I hadn't even woken up yet, but my mom heard all the sirens in the area. I don't know yet if anyone I knew was on that bus though. :nervous:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Darkage on June 18, 2002, 02:57:51 am
I seen it just 20 min ago...Makes me very sad :(

I hope non of your friends, femaly was in that bus dude....
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Dr.Zer0 on June 18, 2002, 03:15:00 am
err, thats all they have now, little retarded sucides :mad:

why dont they ever try anything smart, STOP killing your self just to kill harmless poeple
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Reaper on June 18, 2002, 03:59:57 am
Quote
Originally posted by Dr.Zer0
err, thats all they have now, little retarded sucides :mad:

why dont they ever try anything smart, STOP killing your self just to kill harmless poeple


They probably doesn't have enought money for computer games... And the are thirsty for action...(Play bloody computer games... It will make you friendlier)

Now i'm going back to SoF2:rolleyes:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Darkage on June 18, 2002, 04:04:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by Infested_Larva


They probably doesn't have enought money for computer games... And the are thirsty for action...(Play bloody computer games... It will make you friendlier)

Now i'm going back to SoF2:rolleyes:


Sugestion: follow the news:rolleyes:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 18, 2002, 04:30:10 am
Quote
Originally posted by Infested_Larva


They probably doesn't have enought money for computer games... And the are thirsty for action...(Play bloody computer games... It will make you friendlier)

Now i'm going back to SoF2:rolleyes:


:wtf: :wtf: Im just glad Sandwich wasnt on that bus, really :( :mad:  about the incident of mass murder.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Dr.Zer0 on June 18, 2002, 04:52:14 am
I just hear a very VERY small thing about it on the radio morning show
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 18, 2002, 05:08:37 am
Glad to hear you're okay, sandwich... :o :)

I'm not going to comment further on this matter. Sandwich knows why. :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 18, 2002, 08:17:40 am
Damn... Well, good to hear you're fine, or else I'd have to go to Israel and finish this damn thing off myself. :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: an0n on June 18, 2002, 09:05:29 am
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
Damn... Well, good to hear you're fine, or else I'd have to go to Israel and finish this damn thing off myself. :D

*un-nervingly strokes nuclear weapons controls*

Soon my pretties. Soon.......
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 18, 2002, 10:05:23 am
Yeah, that would be a pretty final solution to the conflict... :o
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: an0n on June 18, 2002, 10:06:59 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
Yeah, that would be a pretty final solution to the conflict... :o

Conflict? What conflict? I just wanna vapourise something.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 18, 2002, 10:11:37 am
I think Mr. Bush could direct you to a number of places where you'd be allowed to do that. :)

Also, I just realised what a bad turn of phrase I chose above. Must have history on the brain... :o
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: an0n on June 18, 2002, 10:15:23 am
(http://www.fattonys.com/images/final.gif)(http://www.fattonys.com/images/billysm.jpg)
:D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CP5670 on June 18, 2002, 10:34:02 am
Seems like this is turning into an everyday affair over there. Glad to hear that you are not hurt.

an0n: I just love that image. :D :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: aldo_14 on June 18, 2002, 02:15:17 pm
Evil terrorist ****ers.

Personally, i think they should just wall up the West bank / Gaza strip and leave them there to starve.

They had an interview with the mother of a suicide bomber on ITV a few days ago....the sheer callousness is chilling.  It's not hard to find a reason for wiping them out.... i guess you have to applaud Israels restraint in this case, in not doing exactly that.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Galemp on June 18, 2002, 02:30:24 pm
Now we have a new Berlin Wall to worry about... with electric fencing. :sigh: Will the horror never end?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 18, 2002, 02:42:35 pm
Quote
Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Will the horror never end?


No. :doubt:



Actually, the horror could end. If every human being was wiped out, I think that there would be a lot less horror. Yes, less horror all round, I say...
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: an0n on June 18, 2002, 02:46:36 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n

*un-nervingly strokes nuclear weapons controls*

Soon my pretties. Soon.......
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 18, 2002, 02:53:56 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
It's not hard to find a reason for wiping them out.... i guess you have to applaud Israels restraint in this case, in not doing exactly that.


Yeah, cause that would be a real "Final Solution" for the Israelis. Huh, and I thought history never really repeated itself. :blah:

I'm also sure that exterminating the Palestinians - man, woman and child - would both catch all the perpetrators of terrorism without harming any of the innocent and earn the lasting gratitude and friendship of the Arab world.

Now, to turn off the sarcasm tags...

A few days ago I saw you talking sensibly about combating terrorism by removing the factors that breed it. What happened? :confused:

The problem in the Occupied territories seems (to me, and I admit I'm hardly an authority) to be that the Palestinians regard the IDF as an illegal army of occupation, and settlers also as illegal...um, what's the word - invaders, I guess. In addition, the Occupied territories are hardly the most affluent nor the most democratic places in the world, and people either have no means of escape or live in grinding poverty for which someone has to be blamed. That someone can easily become Israel through canny propaganda or through fact - after all, shutting down the airport, putting up electric fences - these can hardly be beneficial to the PA economy.

Finally there's a huge power imbalance. The Palestinians regard themselves as fighting a war of liberation (and I know they strike outside the strip and the Occupied Territories, but in WW2 to liberate France, the Allies hit Berlin, Cologne, Dresden - you get the idea. Anything to get the enemy to pull back). However, they don't have the armaments to liberate themselves in a face-to-face war. Thus they're driven to use barbaric methods of slaughter just to get international attention and turn public opinion in Israel (they hope) against the occupation of Palestine.

The way out?

Well, if I knew that I'd have tried to tell someone in government, wouldn't I? :blah:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: wEvil on June 18, 2002, 03:02:47 pm
It's next to impossible for European/Western nations to sort them out because of the basic incompatibilities in fundamental views.

Unfortunately it seems to be getting to the point where everyone has had enough.

Why not "wall" them off and just let them to get on with it exactly?

By wall i mean not grant anyone from and to the place exit visas.

Well..that wouldn't be exactly humanitarian, would it?  And as propaganda machines, western countries rely on the fact they try and sort every world scuffle out to keep their populations quescient.

If they canned the whole world peace thing everyone would start looking closer to home and notice the rugs being pulled out from under their feet and probably revolt.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 18, 2002, 03:08:47 pm
Walls = apartheid = bad. :blah:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: an0n on June 18, 2002, 03:19:31 pm
I think it's funny how it's gotten to be that even tiny little incidents can escalate to the brink of world annihilation.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Martinus on June 18, 2002, 03:32:38 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n

(http://www.fattonys.com/images/billysm.jpg)
:D


:lol: That's genius.

BTW Sandwich I'm glad to hear you're OK. Feel sorry for the people related to those on the bus though. :(
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 18, 2002, 05:28:50 pm
A couple of you mentioned building a wall/fence - a plan that Israel is actually taking first steps in.

But the problem with this "solution" is three-fold:

1. Thousands of Israelis live in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. It'd sort of be like walling off the Bronx.
2. If the Palestinians were left to fend for themselves, economy-wise, they'd shrivel away and die. Arafat, instead of directing the money he recieves from international aid towards helping the Palestinians, invests in the terrorist organizations such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah, or "rewards" the families of suicide bombers for the sacrifice of their son/daughter.
3. There is an international border between Israel and Egypt. But that hasn't prevented the smuggling of weaponry across the border, via tunnels primarily. So in the end, what good would yet another wall/fence be?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Dr.Zer0 on June 18, 2002, 07:19:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
(http://www.fattonys.com/images/final.gif)(http://www.fattonys.com/images/billysm.jpg)
:D


Dose that make Macintosh and Linux the allies ;)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 18, 2002, 07:29:07 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Dr.Zer0
Dose that make Macintosh and Linux the allies ;)
Nope.  Cause macs suck. :p
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Dr.Zer0 on June 18, 2002, 07:59:18 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Nope.  Cause macs suck. :p


well they are aginsed M$
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Thorn on June 18, 2002, 08:04:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Nope.  Cause macs suck. :p

Having used both... no.. they dont suck, theyre great multimedia machines... if I didnt play games all that much I'd be using a Mac...
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Dr.Zer0 on June 18, 2002, 11:19:09 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Thorn

Having used both... no.. they dont suck, theyre great multimedia machines... if I didnt play games all that much I'd be using a Mac...


lets just make them the French :p
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 19, 2002, 12:43:07 am
You see, this all could have been avoided if you followed my plan. Put the world under my control through "emergency powers" given to me by a strange frog-like CGI character. I will then kill many people, build a space station with a giant planet-killing laser, fight a war against a an underfunded rebel force with fighters that are better than mine for some reason, and get killed by my right-hand man!
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Bobboau on June 19, 2002, 01:32:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
A couple of you mentioned building a wall/fence - a plan that Israel is actually taking first steps in.

But the problem with this "solution" is three-fold:

1. Thousands of Israelis live in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. It'd sort of be like walling off the Bronx.
2. If the Palestinians were left to fend for themselves, economy-wise, they'd shrivel away and die. Arafat, instead of directing the money he recieves from international aid towards helping the Palestinians, invests in the terrorist organizations such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah, or "rewards" the families of suicide bombers for the sacrifice of their son/daughter.
3. There is an international border between Israel and Egypt. But that hasn't prevented the smuggling of weaponry across the border, via tunnels primarily. So in the end, what good would yet another wall/fence be?


1. not to be callus, but if they were stupid enough to move into the middle of the vipers den, well lets just call that evolution in action.
If the bronx was 90% populated with insane killers bent on killing me and everyone I know at any cost I would
a.) knockout and drag anyone who I knew who was stupid enough to live there
b.) wall it up, dig a moat, fill it with boiling acid, build another fence place highpowered anti-personel weapons on it, dig another moat, fill it with molten lava, erect a level 9 force feild I don't care if I have to invent all the first 8 levels before this, dig a third moat fill it with lawers that haven't been fed or paid in teen years other than from the happless victims that have fallen in, place an anchent curse on the place, and put up a sign saying "do not enter" faceing in both directions
c.) after the aria had been properly sealed off, I'd nuke it, hourly


2. so what, just cut them off and say "to hell with you", if anyone crosses the border, in ether direction, kill them on site, basicly give them there state and make the border the most heavily defended one on earth, then when the poverty continues everyone will see it is not Isrial that is causeing the problems for the Palistinians. if they become too much of a problem, reoccupy, and kick them all out this time.

3. see #2
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: killadonuts on June 19, 2002, 03:36:52 am
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
I think it's funny how it's gotten to be that even tiny little incidents can escalate to the brink of world annihilation.

Yes, it's halarious isnt it? :rolleyes:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Blitz_Lightning on June 19, 2002, 04:45:30 am
Well, really the blame for the problem is from both sides. Palestine is just as much, if not more, a victim than Israel. The media's coverage is a farce.

Few of the media companies show the whole truth like
Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=40783) :
Quote
But the attempt to force the media to obey Israel's rules is now international. We must say that Israel is under siege by Palestinians (rather than occupying Palestinian land), that Palestinians are responsible for the violence (even though Palestinians are the principal victims), that Arafat turned down a good deal at Camp David (though he was offered just over 60 per cent of his land, not 94 per cent), and that Palestinians indulge in child sacrifice (rather than question why the Israeli troops have shot so many Palestinian children).

Quote
Oddly, you can now learn more from the Israeli press than the American media. The brutality of Israeli soldiers is fully covered in Ha'aretz, which also reports on the large number of US negotiators who are Jewish. Four years ago, a former Israeli soldier described in an Israeli newspaper how his men had looted a village in southern Lebanon; when the piece was reprinted in The New York Times, the looting episode was censored out of the text.


Meanwhile our "impartial" media continues to suggest that there's nothing very odd about using tanks and missiles against rioters and gunmen. The Los Angeles Times is now talking of the Israeli tactics as "heavy handed" – like a schoolmaster who prefers six of the best to three of the best – while BBC Television news told us when the first helicopter fired a missile into a Palestinian apartment block that the Israelis were "resorting to extreme measures".

Is that what the Los Angeles Times and the BBC would have said if the Palestinians had fired a missile into an Israeli apartment block? I doubt it. I suspect our old friend "terrorism" would have been produced to account for such a barbarity.

From
globalissues.org (http://www.globalissues.org)
The issue of Occupation is hardly discussed.
The Palestinians have indeed risen up with protests, riots, violence and often with horrendous suicide bombings that target Israeli civilians. However the deeper context within which the Palestinian uprising has occured is often not looked at in detail. Often not looked into by much of the mainstream is that:

-It is Palestine which is occupied.
-Israeli tanks, helicopter gun ships etc have been used against villages, camps and cities, firing missiles and live rounds. (They also targeted the Palestinian National Authority's Gaza headquarters, the Voice of Palestine radio station and police stations.)
-In comparison, the Palestinians don't have an army in the first place. The Palestinian police force, accused of firing against Israeli soldiers are doing their primary job of protecting their citizens.
-Israeli extremists have also been turning on Palestinians living in Israel.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 06:03:31 am
Interesting information, Blitz_Lightning. I'm glad you brought it up. The Independent is indeed one of the better British newspapers (probably the most impartial) and I also quite like the Guardian www.guardian.co.uk

A particularly interesting piece from the Guardian today tells of how the bus from Gilo was not just packed full of Jewish Israeli commuters, but Arab-Israelis too. It appears to have been timed to derail Bush's peace proposals later this week - and it's succeeded, as Sharon has occupied the Palestinian territories now indefinitely, pre-empting Bush as the suicide bombers did.

However, I await sandwich's response to this newspaper info with less-than-glee. :rolleyes:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: wEvil on June 19, 2002, 06:16:24 am
www.indymedia.org
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 06:43:28 am
Indymedia is full of hate. Look at the user submitted articles and you'll find that most urge you to destroy something or other. Not the most useful attitude to take, if you ask me. Mind you, I haven't checked it in a while due to the aforementioned, but last time it seemed to be cleaned up a little.

Oh, there are lots of conspiracy theorists too... :D :cool:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: wEvil on June 19, 2002, 07:04:07 am
Well....hatred for the current system and paranoia about current consiracy theories is arguably it's only reason for existing.

Still, it makes a change to read some more "vital" news stories than the overly processed newsmen we get on television and the radio.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Blitz_Lightning on June 19, 2002, 07:07:44 am
Quote
There are enough popular sites on the internet, such as Indymedia and Common Dreams, that gather together a range of views and analysis of international developments, to suggest that people who aren't getting what they want from television will look elsewhere.


I just looked up some info about it, and it seems that it ain't too bad.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 07:14:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
Well....hatred for the current system and paranoia about current consiracy theories is arguably it's only reason for existing.

Still, it makes a change to read some more "vital" news stories than the overly processed newsmen we get on television and the radio.


That's true. It's also got rid of a lot of all the rubbishy stories on the sidebar in the previous incarnation of the site.

However, I don't see how aiming to destroy the current system without some idea of what we would like to replace it is much of an improvement. Replacing our current system with anarchy doesn't strike me as an improvement. :blah:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Blitz_Lightning on June 19, 2002, 07:27:31 am
Quote
However, I don't see how aiming to destroy the current system without some idea of what we would like to replace it is much of an improvement. Replacing our current system with anarchy doesn't strike me as an improvement.


Gotta agree with you there... Capitalism by itself aint any good...

I'll just give some definitions for the types of societies there are (from dictionary.com and dungeon masters):

Socialism-Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Democracy-Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. (Although the people can and are being controlled by Government control of press)

Dictatorship-Absolute or despotic control or power.

Theocracy-A government ruled by or subject to religious authority.

Anarchy-Absence of any form of political authority.

Communism-A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

Fascism-A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Tyranny-A government in which a single ruler is vested with absolute power.

Republic-A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.

Monarchy-Government by a monarch. (What kinda definition is that?)

Capitalism-An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Autocracy-Government which resides in self-derived, absolute power. Typified by a hereditary emperor for example.
 
Bureaucracy-Government by departments, rule being through the heads of various departments and conducted by their chief administrators.

Confederacy-Government by a league of (possibly diverse) social entities so designed as to promote the common good of each other.

Feodality-Government by layers where each successive layer of authority derives power from the one above and pledges fealty likewise. A lot of Monarchies are feudal in nature.

Gerontocracy-Government reserved to the elderly or very old.

Gynarchy-Government reserved to females only.

Hierarchy-Similar to a Feodality but religious in nature.

Magocracy-Government by magic-users only.

Matriarchy-Government by the elder females.

Militocracy-Government by the armed forces.

Oligarchy-Government by a few, usually absolute, rulers who are co-equal

Pedocracy-Government by the learned, scholars and savants.

Plutocracy-Government by the Wealthy.

Syndicracy-Government by a body of syndics, each representing some business unit.
:D :D :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 07:32:45 am
Quote
Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning

Socialism-Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.


= Me. :D

Quote
Republic-A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.[/b]


= The West. With a lot of:

Quote
Capitalism[/B]


...thrown in.

Oh, the humanity. Capitalism will destroy us all, etc etc. :p
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Dr.Zer0 on June 19, 2002, 07:58:53 am
uhh, back on topic about the bus blowing up, sandwitch, its time to move, Iv heard that now some bs is going to go on around there
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 08:02:58 am
Apparently there are 3 more suicide bombers on the loose, according to Israeli intelligence.

And I guess moving would be interpreted as caving in to terrorists. How far do you have to move back before you get pushed into the sea?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Dr.Zer0 on June 19, 2002, 08:13:30 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
Apparently there are 3 more suicide bombers on the loose, according to Israeli intelligence.

And I guess moving would be interpreted as caving in to terrorists. How far do you have to move back before you get pushed into the sea?


the sea would be the safest place (http://3dap.com/hlp/hosted/knossos/extra/biggrinhalf.gif)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Snakeseyes on June 19, 2002, 08:13:50 am
In fact, there isn't a political system that is perfect. They all have flaws. Communism can't be integrated in a society perfectly, capitalism is modern feudism, anarchy contradicts itself and the others just suck.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 19, 2002, 08:23:41 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
= Me. :D


You're a... socialist?

Kill him! Kill him before he grows!! :D


Okay, I really think socialism would be a good system, if the human nature didn't get in the way. Example: I studied hard to get where I am today (and yes, I went to public schools, so :ha: ), and I wouldn't like a bit having to share what I have with some slacker that's just sitting on his ass all day doing nothing. This is the main problem with socialism.

I think the best solution would be the "social capitalism", or whatever you call it in english, where the government steps in to assure equal chances to all - by providing all essential services and good free education - so all individuals will be driven to work hard and be useful to the society. There's also a problem there, that is the current situation of the world's globalized economy, where speculation makes more money than actual production, and the wealth distribution is completely screwed up, with the top 0.5% holding most of the money and resources. In that aspect, I think the worker's party here in Brazil (you might have heard of it, they're some pseudo-commies) is right, as they want to slow down the "globalization" rate of the economy here to stabilize the internal situation first. The problem is - if we slow down right now, the country will plunge into economic chaos for some time before we can recover and stabilize, much like what happened to Argentina. We're essentially left with no choice but to follow the will of the IMF (read: speculators) or have our economy be shot dead in an eyeblink. Sucks, eh?


Now, for the Israeli problem: I don't really think the wall would be a solution, as it wouldn't really stop those really determined to be suicide bombers. Unfortunately, though, I can't see a practical solution to this situation, since none of the sides is willing to compromise. I still think that there's a side that is more wrong here, and this side is the Palestinian one: I can't back up any cause that is being fought for through terrorism. Killing of innocent people just can't be justified - I'm sure that anyone will agree to that.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 08:28:32 am
You may not be able to justify it, but you can understand it. And I still can't justify the killing of innocent civilians with a fully-equipped army any more than I can with suicide bombs.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 19, 2002, 08:46:17 am
Well, I didn't say I couldn't understand their reasons - the situation is far more complex than most of us can grasp though, going back to ancient times. It is an ideological struggle more than anything else, and that is the real root of the problem.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Bobboau on June 19, 2002, 09:46:35 am
when was the Nation of Palistine invaded?
who started the conflict wich led to the current occupation?
how do the nearby nations treat the refugees?
were do the palistinians place there military targets (meeting places, bomb factories, ect..)?
were do Isralies place there military targets (helicopters, tanks, barics)
what do the Palistinians target?
what do the Isralies target?
wich side was willing to give the other a huge chunk of land for peace?
how did the other side respond?
wich side calls for peace and arests terrorist grupes in there teritory?
wich side calls for a million Shahead in Jerusilum, and funds insane killers?
wich side has been kicked out of every contry they've ever been in?
wich side has made peace with every contry bordering them that were once hell bent on destroying them?

I think they would have had there state by now if they wouldn't have kept atacking Isrial.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CP5670 on June 19, 2002, 10:19:05 am
Seems to me that the only way to resolve this is to completely wipe out one of the sides. Also, as can be seen here, "right and "wrong" no longer have any meaning since they are subjective concepts.

Quote
Communism-A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.


I have some sympathy for this, although it will only work in a later political era. ;) :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Bobboau on June 19, 2002, 10:38:32 am
thing is, stupid people reproduce faster.
any form of socalism will insure that the stupidest of us will have a long term advantage, and will slowly deteriorate the world as a whole. for example in India and Africa if we feed a family it won't insure they survive as much it will insure that they will have just that many more childeren suffering, these people who can't feed themselves properly for some reason, want familys of fifty childeren, this makes sence in a land were you are likly to lose many of the childeren you have, but if you sudenly get better nutrition and don't change your mind set from quantity to quality it is only going to put further strain on limeted resorces.

I don't think I've made my point the right way, I am realy a very compasonate person, I only want to reduce suffering in the world, if the logic in the previus statment sounds cold think of this.

feed a peron a fish he has a meal, teach a person to fish he has food for life
added; feed a person a fish that is one less fish for others, teach a man to fish and they may be able to help others as well
also added; there are a finite number of fish in the sea, so there must be a finite number of people

hey I derailed the topic, yay :D

ok, I think Isrial shoud pull out of the west bank (and Gaza) and just say if you atack us we'll atack you, this is a deal I am sure this is an offer the Palistinians are sure to accept.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Bobboau on June 19, 2002, 11:05:13 am
looks like we've got another one :rolleyes:,
****ing stupid basturds :mad:
don't they know this is just gona get them a hellfire up the ass?

sure they use the smallest warhead for the hellfire missle made to lessen civilian casualtys, but it's not called hellfire becase it's a little thing.

stupid idiots!!
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Stealth on June 19, 2002, 11:05:49 am
glad to hear you're fine after what happened :)

:yes:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 11:28:09 am
Give a man a fishing rod and he'll die before he can ever catch anything, no doubt. :doh:

CP, my 'sympathy for Socialism' is based on equally long-term thinking. We'd have to change the mindset of people from materialistic to community-based before Communism or Socialism would take off correctly.

Where's your proof that stupid people reproduce faster, Bobb? By your own admission having lots of children in the poorest places is good sense, because it means more can work, and more can support you in old age. As long as they bring in more than they eat, each extra child is a benefit. Besides, poverty cannot be linked with stupidity. Such a view is...well, stupid. :p

Quote

1/when was the Nation of Palistine invaded?
2/who started the conflict wich led to the current occupation?
3/how do the nearby nations treat the refugees?
4/were do the palistinians place there military targets (meeting places, bomb factories, ect..)?
5/were do Isralies place there military targets (helicopters, tanks, barics)
6/what do the Palistinians target?
7/what do the Isralies target?
8/wich side was willing to give the other a huge chunk of land for peace?
9/how did the other side respond?
10/wich side calls for peace and arests terrorist grupes in there teritory?
11/wich side calls for a million Shahead in Jerusilum, and funds insane killers?
12/wich side has been kicked out of every contry they've ever been in?
13/wich side has made peace with every contry bordering them that were once hell bent on destroying them? [/b]


Most of these questions are irrelevant, some valid. Some actually condemn the viewpoint that you're trying to put across.

1. Some will say there's never been a 'nation of Palestine'. However, Palestine was once a British Protectorate covering Israel, the Occupied Territories and the Kingdom of Jordan. It was divided in 1948. Interestingly, here's something to refute the fact that the conflict is 'ancient'. The violence between Jews and Arabs in the area only began after the Balfour Decalration in 1917 - that the Palestinian Protectorate be turned into two states, Israel and Palestine. Before that Jewish refugees had been welcomed and treated fairly.

2. The conflict which led to the current Occupation was I believe one of the Arab-Israeli wars. First of all, as Israel was founded it came under attack from all sides by the other nations who didn't want it there. They were pushed back, and Israel occupied the land put aside for the creation of Palestine under the 1948 agreement. Those Palestinians who were forced out were not allowed the right of return to their farms because they had been absent during the war and Israel declared them state property. About 1/4 of farmers got a small payoff. The rest of the land was invaded in 1967 and represents something of a safety buffer zone for Israel proper. Too bad it's someone else's country, nor is it safe. :blah:

Basically the Palestinians themselves were caught in between the other powers. They certainly didn't start the war, and I'm not even going to go into who started the current intifada (as the chain of blame goes back a loooong way).

3. Nearby nations, I understand are hardly deeply compassionate towards Palestinian refugees, but I don't see how this matters. Just because some nations are cruel doesn't mean others should follow their lead. Besides, it only highlights the need for a homeland for these refugees all the more.

6. Palestinians target military personnel and notably civilians, as they regard them all as invaders (as I understand) and don't have the weapons to fight head-to-head with the IDF.

7. The Israelis target militants, or try to but end up killing a lot of civilians. It could be said that firing missiles into crowded civilian areas does not make the most sense if you're after a targeted assassination with no other casualties.

8. Both sides made concessions at Camp David and Oslo. The PA was willing to drop it's unreasonable demand that Israel should not exist, and Israel was willing to give back the land it took in 1967. But only 60% of it, as stated previously. In addition, the state was crippled by not being in charge of its own electricity generation, water supplies and airspace, etc etc.

9. The other side said no, understandably. After all, if they said yes that would be all they ever had, not a return to pre-1967 (and original 1948 agreement) borders. :p

10 + 11. I assume you're trying to say that Israel calls for peace and the PA calls for war. Bull. Sharon wants nothing but a war to utterly remove the Palestinians. The PA deplores the suicide attacks in public though there's some question about whether they do in private, and are losing political ground to Hamas anyway, who want to destroy Israel. It's not a case of good vs. bad as CP5670 says. Both sides are tainted.

12. I guess you want me to say the Jews. Again, untrue and unfair. I don't recall any purges in America, in Shanghai they were welcomed, and so on. I do realise there's a history of European persecution, though. However, what does this have to do with Israel/Palestine? The Palestinians were kicked out too. And besides, being kicked out of countries DOES NOT entitle you to kick others out in turn. It's not some kind of global kicking-wheel.

13. Israel has made peace with pretty much all the other countries for a number of reasons. First, it's so much better militarily that it could probably beat all the other regional powers and take their land if it so wished. Thus the Arabs have realised that Israel is there to stay. They've accepted it's existence; why can Israel not in turn acknowledge Palestine?

Phew. That was long. :nod:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 19, 2002, 01:18:05 pm
The PA targets civilians almost exclusively, thats why they are called terrorists and they are no better than Osama Bin Laden.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 01:28:06 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
The PA targets civilians almost exclusively, thats why they are called terrorists and they are no better than Osama Bin Laden.


Consider:

The PA regards Israel as illegally occupying it's land. So does the UN and so on. Whilst there is a military and police presence (which is attacked at barracks and so on fairly regularly) there are also civilians on 'PA soil' building illegal settlements and so on. Is it such a leap of logic to regard these people as invaders of the Palestinians' land in their eyes?

Also, when you have a pitfully weak force but want to make yourself heard as a power, and to win, would you do in military terms anything less than target the most softly-defended targets? This is hardly an excuse, I admit - but neither is killing a load of civilians just to get to a single Islamic Jihad leader. I've never seen the IDF offer proof that all of those killed are in fact terrorists.

And you've forgotten that one man's terrost is another's freedom fighter. It just depends who's writing the history books. In another life, Henry Kissinger could have been the greatest terrorist of all time and Osama or Hitler our saviours.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 19, 2002, 01:37:53 pm
Thats sick! Osama Bin Laden is a evil monster like all those suicide bombers. I know whats going to happen, the IDF is going to crush the PA and reoccupy the Gaza Strip and the West bank.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Snakeseyes on June 19, 2002, 02:04:40 pm
Yes, and you think that IDF doesn't have "evil monsters" in their ranks?

Do you know that Ariel Sharon was responsible for the death of hundreds, or maybe thousands, civilians back in the 80's, when he was general in the Israeli Army? He was never prosecuted.

What about UCK? They were considered terrorists in Serbia, they were helped by Al Qayda, but you considered them a Liberation Army, while PKK and PLO are Terrorist Group. Yet again, Turkey and Israel are US allies, while Serbia wasn't.

Im' not taking anyone's part here, as I don't approve terrorism.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 02:05:41 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Thats sick! Osama Bin Laden is a evil monster like all those suicide bombers.


Why is it sick? As CP will forcefully tell you, everything is relative. There is no intrinstic right and wrong according to him. I happen to agree that OBL isn't the saint I suggested he could be, but others think he is. When the West writes the history books he'll be a monster, but in the eyes of others he will not.

Quote
I know whats going to happen, the IDF is going to crush the PA and reoccupy the Gaza Strip and the West bank. [/B]


Whoop-di-dooh. :blah:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 02:11:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Snakeseyes
Do you know that Ariel Sharon was responsible for the death of hundreds, or maybe thousands, civilians back in the 80's, when he was general in the Israeli Army? He was never prosecuted.


IIRC, Sharon was actually found guilty of partial (at least) responsibility for the Sabra and Shantila massacres in Lebanon (1982). Nevertheless, he wasn't punished. Mind you, some might say that steering Israel through the current crisis is punishment enough. :p

Belgium tried to try him as a war criminal this year but it was ruled that serving heads of state couldn't be indicted.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 19, 2002, 03:55:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
Interesting information, Blitz_Lightning. I'm glad you brought it up. The Independent is indeed one of the better British newspapers (probably the most impartial) and I also quite like the Guardian www.guardian.co.uk

A particularly interesting piece from the Guardian today tells of how the bus from Gilo was not just packed full of Jewish Israeli commuters, but Arab-Israelis too. It appears to have been timed to derail Bush's peace proposals later this week - and it's succeeded, as Sharon has occupied the Palestinian territories now indefinitely, pre-empting Bush as the suicide bombers did.

However, I await sandwich's response to this newspaper info with less-than-glee. :rolleyes:


When you read/watch/listen to the media, you need to realize one thing: there are four different types of reporting. Biased towards side A, Biased towards side B, Balanced, and Truthful.

What's the freaking diff between balanced and truthful? Easy: Balanced accepts the reports (propoganda) of both sides, while Truthful goes out and investigates for itself, to find the Truth of a situation.

Quote
Originally posted by Dr.Zer0
uhh, back on topic about the bus blowing up, sandwitch, its time to move, Iv heard that now some bs is going to go on around there


I ain't movin' nowhere.

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
Apparently there are 3 more suicide bombers on the loose, according to Israeli intelligence.

And I guess moving would be interpreted as caving in to terrorists. How far do you have to move back before you get pushed into the sea?


There was another explosion (car bomb, I think) at a hitch-hikers point at the eastern exit from J-lem - 6 killed so far. And they haven't even released all the names of yesterday's attack yet... :(

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
You may not be able to justify it, but you can understand it. And I still can't justify the killing of innocent civilians with a fully-equipped army any more than I can with suicide bombs.


Neither do I. But define "innocent civillians". Does a palestinian man walking in the streets of Jenin with a pistol aimed at IDF soldiers qualify? He's not a part of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc - just a guy with a gun pointed at soldiers.

In such a situation, my orders as a soldier are to shoot to kill. Never did I or any other soldier in the IDF recieve an order to shoot unarmed Palestinians. Never.

And if you're thinking of the helicopter bombardment of the Jenin refugee camp, think again. The area was, for lack of a better word, infested with terrorists.

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
2. The conflict which led to the current Occupation was I believe one of the Arab-Israeli wars. First of all, as Israel was founded it came under attack from all sides by the other nations who didn't want it there. They were pushed back, and Israel occupied the land put aside for the creation of Palestine under the 1948 agreement. Those Palestinians who were forced out were not allowed the right of return to their farms because they had been absent during the war and Israel declared them state property. About 1/4 of farmers got a small payoff. The rest of the land was invaded in 1967 and represents something of a safety buffer zone for Israel proper. Too bad it's someone else's country, nor is it safe. :blah:


Realize this: none of Israel's territory was invaded in a war of her making. None. Every single war we've been involved in has been a defensive war, protecting Israel from invading armies. So all these so-called "occupied territories" are areas of land that were won in a defensive war...! Had the arab nations never attacked us, we would still be at the 1948, UN-assigned, borders. So go suck on a lolipop. :p

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
6. Palestinians target military personnel and notably civilians, as they regard them all as invaders (as I understand) and don't have the weapons to fight head-to-head with the IDF.


Which is a great excuse to go blow up some mothers and children in a pizza parlor...! :rolleyes:

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
7. The Israelis target militants, or try to but end up killing a lot of civilians. It could be said that firing missiles into crowded civilian areas does not make the most sense if you're after a targeted assassination with no other casualties.


I wish there were statistics somewhere of how many civillians have been killed on each side. Pizza parlor goers on the Israeli side, and people passing by a terrorists' vehicle targeted for assasination on the other side. I'd be really interested...

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
8. Both sides made concessions at Camp David and Oslo. The PA was willing to drop it's unreasonable demand that Israel should not exist, and Israel was willing to give back the land it took in 1967. But only 60% of it, as stated previously. In addition, the state was crippled by not being in charge of its own electricity generation, water supplies and airspace, etc etc.


Did I miss something? Where the heck did this 60% figure come from? And no, I don't mean where in this thread - what's the source of this "information"?

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
9. The other side said no, understandably. After all, if they said yes that would be all they ever had, not a return to pre-1967 (and original 1948 agreement) borders. :p


After Arafat declined the land offered to him by Mr. Barak, he was ridiculed by arab world leaders for not taking peacefully what he could get, and then fighting for the rest.

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
Sharon wants nothing but a war to utterly remove the Palestinians. The PA deplores the suicide attacks in public though there's some question about whether they do in private...


My turn: bull. Had Sharon wanted a war, he would have started one long ago - the Palestinians have certainly given him an excuse, and the perfect time would have been immediately following 9/11, with the world in an uproar over terrorisim. But he didn't.

And the PA deplores terror attacks in public in English, not in Arabic. It may not seem like a big diff, but it is. Arafat continuosly calls for a halt to the terror in English, and then rallies a mob chanting "Jihad! Jihad! Jihad!" the next minute in Arabic.

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
12. I guess you want me to say the Jews. Again, untrue and unfair. I don't recall any purges in America, in Shanghai they were welcomed, and so on. I do realise there's a history of European persecution, though. However, what does this have to do with Israel/Palestine? The Palestinians were kicked out too. And besides, being kicked out of countries DOES NOT entitle you to kick others out in turn. It's not some kind of global kicking-wheel.


Funny, I actually though this was talking about the palestinians, since they've been kicked out of Jordan, and none of the other Arab nations want them. The only country that does accept them on it's land is Israel, ironically.

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
13. Israel has made peace with pretty much all the other countries for a number of reasons. First, it's so much better militarily that it could probably beat all the other regional powers and take their land if it so wished. Thus the Arabs have realised that Israel is there to stay. They've accepted it's existence; why can Israel not in turn acknowledge Palestine?.


This is an easy one, I'm surprised you even asked. Israel is at peace with her neighbors, and we haven't been attacked by them since the last war. They know that if and when attack us, they'll get whupped. So they recognize our right to exist, because they had no choice.

On the other hand, the Palestinians continue to attack us. There will be no peace while the attacks continue to go on - this much should be quite obvious! So for the parallel to happen with Israel and the Palestinains, the agressor needs to be beaten, solidly. They need to have no choice but to accept that the other is here to stay. That's how the peace between Israel and the Arab states came about, and that's the only way a peace between the Palestinians and Israel would be humanly possible.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: heretic on June 19, 2002, 04:17:57 pm
just don't go riding on any buses...

hell, I'd rather walk
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 19, 2002, 04:24:57 pm
Its sad the area is in so much turmoil and the streets are dangerous, it looks like a nice area(ignoring the obvivous) to live in.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 04:27:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Its sad the area is in so much turmoil and the streets are dangerous, it looks like a nice area(ignoring the obvivous) to live in.


Are you kidding? No offence sandwich, I'm sure there are nice places and sights, but everything I see makes it look like a desert. Lord only knows why it's the Holy Land (well, quite). :p

Oh, there was that oasis thing you showed me...that was cool.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 19, 2002, 04:29:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Its sad the area is in so much turmoil and the streets are dangerous, it looks like a nice area(ignoring the obvivous) to live in.


It is... no matter how hot it gets in summer during the day, it always cools off to around 18 degrees at night. :)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 19, 2002, 04:34:02 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan


Are you kidding? No offence sandwich, I'm sure there are nice places and sights, but everything I see makes it look like a desert. Lord only knows why it's the Holy Land (well, quite). :p

Oh, there was that oasis thing you showed me...that was cool.


No , Seriously i like the place, its on the mediterranean and doesnt have all those ugly looking buildings around mine everywhere.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 19, 2002, 04:35:33 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
No , Seriously i like the place, its on the mediterranean and doesnt have all those ugly looking buildings around mine everywhere.
What, tall, phallically symbolic skyscrapers?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 04:37:42 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
What, tall, phallically symbolic skyscrapers?


I had an argument with my psychology teacher about this. He said things were tall, long, large, etc to be phallic. I said that lamposts had to be tall to cast lots of light, lipstick had to be long and thin so people didn't smear it voer half their chin.

Can't see a reason why skyscrapers can't be squarer. I'd say they ARE phallic.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 19, 2002, 04:39:30 pm
No the general dullness of Britian, everything is grey and dull and wet. Still i imagine going on holiday in Israel wouldnt be expensive, hopefully that will be the case when i go.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 19, 2002, 04:40:23 pm
Actually, I'd say they're kind of secondarily phallic.  After all, the more stories you can put in a building, the less you have to spend on land.  And land in a downtown core is not cheap.

I'm sure the tallest world competition has some freudian aspects to it though. ;)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 19, 2002, 04:42:32 pm
I looked up the word Phallic on www.dictionary.com, pretty weird word.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 19, 2002, 04:43:09 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
No the general dullness of Britian, everything is grey and dull and wet. Still i imagine going on holiday in Israel wouldnt be expensive, hopefully that will be the case when i go.


Meh, I'm sure we're all sometimes contemptuous of the place we call home. Britain does have some nice bits, just nowhere near you. :p

For example I would like to travel to America. Colorado looks nice. But the grass is always greener...
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 19, 2002, 04:47:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
Are you kidding? No offence sandwich, I'm sure there are nice places and sights, but everything I see makes it look like a desert.


I'm offended! ;) :p j/k

There is a lot of desert, but there's also alot of "green" areas - I say "green" because it really depends on the season and the rainfall.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 19, 2002, 04:48:35 pm
Im not impressed to much by grass(too much pollen). Just Irsael has lots of interesting places, better weather and its brighter and hotels are cheap.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: NotDefault on June 19, 2002, 04:48:55 pm
Er, I'd say it's because it's easier to get get space in the air than to get space on the ground.  Imagine if all skyscrapers were lain down on the ground; it wouldn't work too well, would it?

EDIT: Bah, I get my post out of the door and discover there were ~5 posts made while I was reading that page and replying. :)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 19, 2002, 05:19:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Im not impressed to much by grass(too much pollen). Just Irsael has lots of interesting places, better weather and its brighter and hotels are cheap.
Go to Brazil.

Where the men are men and the women are horny. :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 19, 2002, 05:36:22 pm
Brazil is too hot and costs too much.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 19, 2002, 05:37:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Brazil is too hot and costs too much.


Too hot? Come on, we have just the right temperature... ;)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 19, 2002, 05:48:07 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
Brazil is too hot and costs too much.
Costs too much?  Dude, I was there for 7 weeks and spent the equivalent of about 300-350 pounds.

As for the heat, well, that's due to all the hot girls. ;)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 19, 2002, 05:55:11 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
As for the heat, well, that's due to all the hot girls. ;)


LOL! True, true. Shame you got me on a bad time (and I've been on a bat time ever since) - with too much work and no time for anything else. If you had came a couple of months earlier it would have been a lot different...

And indeed, everything here is pretty cheap, except for tech stuff (computers, etc.). :)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 19, 2002, 07:07:08 pm
Let's get down to the real cause of this conflict: Rome. There are two routes to this.[list=1]Or we could blame Yassir Arafat and Ariel Sharon for being ***holes that don't know how to do anythign but consolidate their power through propaganda and terror tactics.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Martinus on June 19, 2002, 08:30:41 pm
I'm not even going to get started on conflict, needless to say that anything that you hear in the media will be tainted.

Lets face it people, unless you spend a day moving around with sandwich and witness the effect suicide bombers have on people you'll never see the true Isreali standpoint likewise you'd need to have the mindset of a palestinian terrorist to understand why they take the measures they do in attempt to purge what they regard as invaders.

I personally am very glad I live here in Ireland and I wouldn't swap it for anywhere else in the world, to say to sandwich "just pack up and leave" is unrealistic. Your home is your home no matter where it is.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 19, 2002, 10:54:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Maeglamor
Your home is your home no matter where it is.


Tottally agree. :)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: TheVirtu on June 19, 2002, 11:08:52 pm
Lets face it people, unless you spend a day moving around with sandwich and witness the effect suicide bombers have on people you'll never see the true Isreali standpoint likewise you'd need to have the mindset of a palestinian terrorist to understand why they take the measures they do in attempt to purge what they regard as invaders.

This is true, these scuide bombers are damaging the Isrealis and its people, you never know where they'll come from. The rest of us dont actually see what happens up close, we see it all happening on the news while the citizens of Isreal live in constant fear for what could happen to their family and friends.

Your home is your home no matter where it is.

Agreed.

Or we could blame Yassir Arafat and Ariel Sharon for being ***holes that don't know how to do anythign but consolidate their power through propaganda and terror tactics.

I'm not exactly sure if one is better than the other, but I do blame them, more blaming Arafat.

---
What I don't really understand is, if they could just know that scuide isnt the thing todo in this situation. They should know better that they're just making the Middle East more hellish than it is now, exactly like Afghanistan. Life is a great thing, I wouldnt scuide myself for some unforseen reason for the one point of religion,etc.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Blitz_Lightning on June 20, 2002, 01:35:37 am
Quote
What I don't really understand is, if they could just know that scuide isnt the thing todo in this situation. They should know better that they're just making the Middle East more hellish than it is now, exactly like Afghanistan.


I agree with you there, but that doesn't change the facts. I'm sure that most of the suiciders would prefer not to commit suicide. It's just that, the Palestines have no way of hitting back at the Israelis apart from using terrorism. They can't fight them militarily, they can't fight them economically, they can't fight them with politics especially as Israel is the favorite of America... What can they do? They are frustrated with the occupation of their land by the Israeli soldiers. It is understandable. They have no other method of fighting back. These people suicide because they want their own back against the Israelis. You cant say the same thing for all the thousands of people in developed countries who suicide because they think life is ****.


What type of government you have in a country DOES affect your country. Take Margaret Thatcher for example. She turned Britain into a society in which one third is in poverty, the middle third insecure, and the top third rich. She implemented one of the biggest wealth redistribution policies- resulting in the rich getting richer and the poor poorer. Unfortunately for us in Australia, our politicians had to copy her. :blah:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 20, 2002, 01:53:43 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Costs too much?  Dude, I was there for 7 weeks and spent the equivalent of about 300-350 pounds.

As for the heat, well, that's due to all the hot girls. ;)


It probably costs £300 just to fly there and i dont really want to go Brazil.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Bobboau on June 20, 2002, 02:10:21 am
I still say the Palistinians would have had palistine back by now if they wouldn't have started this second intifada.
of corse if this land is so important to them they shouldn't have picked a fight with Isrial all those years ago to begin with, but they did,

all these atacks do is insure Isrial won't even think of giving them there own state,
now this is exactly what the extremests want, they want the west bank to just get to be absolute hell on earth, they want the people broken and they want no peace, this is why Isrial must stop pussy footing around and just all out nail these guys, there will never be peace if these groupes are left in place,
it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better

there won't be peace with ether of the leaders there are now, I only hope Isrial elects someone a little less hard lined next time round, if (he, if, hahaha!) these atacks continue, then bring the old Sharone stick out again
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 20, 2002, 03:57:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
It's just that, the Palestines have no way of hitting back at the Israelis apart from using terrorism. They can't fight them militarily, they can't fight them economically, they can't fight them with politics especially as Israel is the favorite of America... What can they do? They are frustrated with the occupation of their land by the Israeli soldiers. It is understandable. They have no other method of fighting back. These people suicide because they want their own back against the Israelis. You cant say the same thing for all the thousands of people in developed countries who suicide because they think life is ****.


I can certainly see the situation from this point of view, but since it's based on a few... distorted facts at best, I can't agree with it.

Occupation is a word I'm getting tired of hearing. No, I'm not saying you all should tip-toe around here being careful that you don't say the dreaded "O" word - it's just that "the Israeli occupation" has become the kind of excuse that is repeated by various concerned and unconcerned parties, both involved and uninvolved, without understanding the situation at all.

Is Israel currently in control of land that belonged to Jordan and Egypt after 1948? Yes.

Did Israel go out like Alexander the Great, conquering all the territory she could see? No.

Was Israel attacked by Jordan and Egypt? Yes.

During her defensive war, did Israel push the enemy forces back into enemy territory? Yes.

Is there any reason why Israel should be the one "responsible" for the plight (yes, it truly is a plight - I'm not being sarcastic here...) of the people who left their homes because of Israel's military response to their nations' attack? I still don't see how a case can be made that Israel is responsible.

Also, I don't know how well it's known, but if you ask a Palestinian currently living under the PA, who had previously lived under Israel, where he/she was better off, they will tell you that their situation was much better under Israel than the PA. It's becoming a common thing for Palestinian men to marry Israeli-Arab women in order to get citizenship in Israel.

Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better


Unfortunately, you are right. :doubt:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 20, 2002, 04:03:26 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
Is there any reason why Israel should be the one "responsible" for the plight (yes, it truly is a plight - I'm not being sarcastic here...) of the people who left their homes because of Israel's military response to their nations' attack? I still don't see how a case can be made that Israel is responsible.
I dunno, maybe because what goes around, comes around?  I'm sorry, but by what I'm getting from your logic, we shouldn't have basically rebuilt Europe, shouldn't have fixed up Japan, shouldn't even have created Isreal.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 20, 2002, 04:44:57 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
I dunno, maybe because what goes around, comes around?  I'm sorry, but by what I'm getting from your logic, we shouldn't have basically rebuilt Europe, shouldn't have fixed up Japan, shouldn't even have created Isreal.


No, not that kind of responsible. I mean, to take a WWII example:

(It may not be historically accurate, but it gets the point across)

And so on, and so forth.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 20, 2002, 04:54:14 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
No, not that kind of responsible. I mean, to take a WWII example:

(It may not be historically accurate, but it gets the point across)
  • Germany attacks France.
  • France strikes back, pushing the Germans out of France and beyond, into Germany.
  • Germany surrenders.
  • France remains with the land they "occupied" while pushing back the Germans.
  • German refugees complain that France invaded their land (huh? :wtf: ) and that they want their land back, as a seperate state, since Germany doesn't want them anymore.
  • France refuses, especially considering that there are millions of French living on that land for the past 50 years.
  • Interm agreement reached to allow German refugees to return to the "occupied territories", but under French rule.
  • German refugees insist on their own state and start to attack France using terrorist tactics.
  • France moves in to the "territories" to wipe out the terrorisim.

And so on, and so forth. [/B]
Except that in WWII, it went like this, more or less:



You should be able to see where I'm going with this.  Like it or not, civilized people have an obligation to those they conquer.  Sounds bizzare?  Vae Victus doesn't work so well any more....
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Blitz_Lightning on June 20, 2002, 04:55:12 am
Quote
France refuses, especially considering that there are millions of French living on that land for the past 50 years.


But of course! That is why Palestinians are refusing to allow Israel to take over their land!
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 20, 2002, 05:16:28 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Except that in WWII, it went like this, more or less:

  • Germany attacks France.
  • The Allies strikes back, pushing the Germans out of France and beyond, into Germany.
  • Germany surrenders.
  • The Allies remains with the land they "occupied" while rebuilding the country they trashed.
  • Germany, now rebuilt into an Ally-friendly nation, joins the Allies.


You should be able to see where I'm going with this.  Like it or not, civilized people have an obligation to those they conquer.  Sounds bizzare?  Vae Victus doesn't work so well any more.... [/B]


Ok, that's fine historically, but I wasn't trying to be historically accurate. I was simply transposing Jordan/Egypt and Israel for Germany and France, thus removing the racial hatred from seeing the whole picture.

But on to your point, I agree. However, does it appy in our case?
Israel did not trash Jordan, Egypt or Syria.
Israel has and continues to develop the land that the world calls the West Bank.

If you take what happened in WWII and duplicate it into the mideast situation, Israel would have solidly whupped Jordan and Syria, taken down the current regiemes, replaced them with Israel-friendly regiemes, and helped to rebuild those countries. But we weren't faced with a situation where those nations had to be solidly ground up, swallowed whole, and expelled out the rear. They were (semi) sensible and surrendered before that.

Quote
Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
But of course! That is why Palestinians are refusing to allow Israel to take over their land!


Err... no, that's why Israel refuses to give back the land we won in a defensive war. Get it straight.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Blitz_Lightning on June 20, 2002, 05:14:09 pm
Quote
Err... no, that's why Israel refuses to give back the land we won in a defensive war. Get it straight.


No, that is not true...After World War II, the newly formed United Nations (which then had less developing countries as members) recommended the partition of Palestine into two states and the internationalization of Jerusalem. The minority Jewish people received the majority of the land. That is quite unfair on the Palestinians...
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Ace on June 20, 2002, 06:00:49 pm
What can still be done however is reconstruction of Palestinian lands for the people. Send in peacekeepers and neutral parties, have Israeli industries but subsidiares in Palistinian lands.

Sounds too simple of a solution I'm sure, however if the common man has no reason to fight and is comfortable, the extremists and terrorists can then be rooted out gung-ho Bush cowboy style.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 20, 2002, 07:38:26 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning


No, that is not true...After World War II, the newly formed United Nations (which then had less developing countries as members) recommended the partition of Palestine into two states and the internationalization of Jerusalem. The minority Jewish people received the majority of the land. That is quite unfair on the Palestinians...


*sigh* That's not what I'm talking about here. The land assigned to the newly formed nation of Israel by the UN is the pre-'67 borders, meaning without Judea, Samaria or Gaza. But during the '67 war, Israel pushed the attacking forces back beyond her own borders and beyond, taking control of Judea, Samaria and Gaza. It's that land (aka The West Bank or the Occupied Territories) that is being argued over. Not the UN-assigned land.

And the Jewish minority in the area _did_ recieve a minority of land, or have you forgotten about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc? Those are all Arab states. Israel's the only Jewish state. And if you look at history carefully, the HaShemite Kingdom of Jordan is supposed to be the nation of the people known today as "Palestinians".

Quote
Originally posted by Ace
What can still be done however is reconstruction of Palestinian lands for the people. Send in peacekeepers and neutral parties, have Israeli industries but subsidiares in Palistinian lands.

Sounds too simple of a solution I'm sure, however if the common man has no reason to fight and is comfortable, the extremists and terrorists can then be rooted out gung-ho Bush cowboy style.


I'm all for that - but more than the lands would need to be reconstructed. The leadership would need to be replaced by a leadership willing to and capable of combating terrorisim, as well as an educational system that didn't brainwash the children with thoughts of the glory of becoming a Shahid (suicide martyr). Basically what the Allies did with Germany after WWII.

The one problem is that Germany knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that she had been defeated, and therefore she was open to change. In order for peace to occur between 2 warring parties - true peace, like there is between Germany and France today, one of the parties needs not only to be beaten, but to know that they have been beaten. This happened with Germany and the Allies bombing of their cities, and it happened more drastically with Japan and the atom bombs. Both of those countries knew they were beaten.

Once one of the sides knows it has been beaten, a peace accord is reached. That is actually the wrong phraseology. Simply, the winner dictates it's terms to the loser. Full stop. Period. Again, look at Germany-Japan and the Allies.

Now compare this to Israel's situation, where she has prevailed over attacking nations in numerous wars, but has not truly defeated them. A true defeat is something that requires (pardon the cliche...) a show of force. And force is something that the Islamic mindset respects greatly.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 20, 2002, 07:52:26 pm
[Starts hitting head with hammer]Blind.... Morons.... Incapable.... of seeing.... both sides....  of argument![Stops hitting head with hammer]

Let's get down to some of the deep, dark secrets of all revolutionary movements that no one wants to talk about. Terrorism and the destruction of property.
We Americans did it by dumping tea into Boston Harbor and the starting of riots. The tea merchants weren't the ones who were taxing us, the King of Britain was, yet we destroyed their property. The riots started by many revolutionaries led to the destruction of property belonging to people percieved as being sympathetic to the British.
The state of Israel even partially derives itself from acts of terrorism.
Let's face it: People are idiots, and tend to harm other people to gain support for their cause. That defies logic, but it is the truth.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 20, 2002, 07:55:01 pm
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
And the Jewish minority in the area _did_ recieve a minority of land, or have you forgotten about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc? Those are all Arab states. Israel's the only Jewish state.
Most of those states predate the origin of Israel, so they don't count. What he was talking about was the division of the British territory of Palestine, not the whole Middle East.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 20, 2002, 08:37:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Most of those states predate the origin of Israel, so they don't count.


Well now, that depends on how far back you want to go. If we were to go all the way back to Biblical times, I think that the only nation older than Israel is Egypt, which has remained pretty much as-is to this day.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 20, 2002, 08:39:35 pm
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich


Well now, that depends on how far back you want to go. If we were to go all the way back to Biblical times, I think that the only nation older than Israel is Egypt, which has remained pretty much as-is to this day.
You knew what I meant! I meant the current state of Israel, which bears little resemblance to the Biblical state.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 20, 2002, 11:33:33 pm
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
Well now, that depends on how far back you want to go. If we were to go all the way back to Biblical times, I think that the only nation older than Israel is Egypt, which has remained pretty much as-is to this day.


You mean territory-wise, right? :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 21, 2002, 04:42:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
You knew what I meant! I meant the current state of Israel, which bears little resemblance to the Biblical state.


Actually, it doeesn't matter one way or the other. You see, this fight is not about land, no matter how much noise they may make. It's not about the right of return, or anything like that. Oh, I'm sure that there are plenty of Palestinians who _are_ only concerned with getting their land back, returning to the places they used to dwell in. But that's not the ultimate driving force behind it all.

Someone I was talking with by email said this:

Quote
A thought experiment I like to bring up whenever I encounter a pro-Palestinian person with the standard "Palestinians only want peace" sign:

- Assume that tomorrow, all of Europe, all of North America, the southern half of Africa, and the bulk of southeast asia disappeared.
- At the same time, assume 99% of all Israeli weapons ceased functioning.
- How many hours do you think it would be before the Arab world made sure that the Jewish people were well on their way to being extinct?

Only the most deluded of people will try and say "oh, no way....".


Which brings up a very valid point. The fact that Israel has won the wars waged against her by her Arab, Muslim neighbors for the past 50 years is quite simply a disgrace to the name of Allah. In their eyes, it is a sign that the God of the Jews is greater than the god of Islam. Which is a disgrace, not only to those nations who have been defeated in battle, but to all true Muslims world-wide.

Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
You mean territory-wise, right? :D


Yeah, certainly not power- / empire- wise! :p
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Snakeseyes on June 21, 2002, 06:02:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich


Well now, that depends on how far back you want to go. If we were to go all the way back to Biblical times, I think that the only nation older than Israel is Egypt, which has remained pretty much as-is to this day.


If you talk about middle east, there were other nations that go back as Egypt and Israel, like arabs, finicians, their decendants I believe live now in Lebanon, and others.

Now, If you are not talking about middle east but about a more general area, then there are numerous of other nations that predated you, and even some of them had colonies in middle east, like the greeks had the filistei(sp?).
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 21, 2002, 06:15:18 am
Quote
Originally posted by Snakeseyes


If you talk about middle east, there were other nations that go back as Egypt and Israel, like arabs, finicians, their decendants I believe live now in Lebanon, and others.

Now, If you are not talking about middle east but about a more general area, then there are numerous of other nations that predated you, and even some of them had colonies in middle east, like the greeks had the filistei(sp?).


Nahh, I was just pointing out how there are quite a number of Arab states in the Mid-East area, but only one Jewish state, and they don't even want us to have that! :doubt:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Snakeseyes on June 21, 2002, 06:30:46 am
I just heard about the attacks in the occupied territory by palestinians, what's going down there?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 21, 2002, 10:13:25 am
Quote
Originally posted by Snakeseyes
I just heard about the attacks in the occupied territory by palestinians, what's going down there?


Which attacks are you referring to? The terror attacks, or the retaliation?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Snakeseyes on June 21, 2002, 10:31:19 am
I mean both.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 21, 2002, 10:35:01 am
Quote
Originally posted by Snakeseyes
I mean both.


Well, read for yourself: www.jpost.com
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: wEvil on June 21, 2002, 10:57:44 am
Bleddy hell.
They just don't stop, do they?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 21, 2002, 02:17:45 pm
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich


Well, read for yourself: www.jpost.com


I was reading that just the other day.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: RoachKoach on June 21, 2002, 02:26:25 pm
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
Bleddy hell.
They just don't stop, do they?


they cant stop, what will they do once they stop?
they need a face saving way of getting out of the violence they started, and there isnt any way, so they'll continue, just to make a point. Atleast Israel can retaliate, and have its tanks n troops rolling thru palestinian settlements. out here if we so much as even try doing that, even half a mile across the LOC, and itll be war.

When u are unique, u are hated, and Israel is one hell of a unique nation
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 21, 2002, 07:38:04 pm
You have to remember, part of the flashpoint for this current conflict was Ariel Sharon's perceived insult to the Palestinians on Temple Mount.

And also, why the hell do people fight over and end up defiling what they are trying to protect? This whole conflict could very well be construed as blasphemy and sacrilege. Fighting on holy ground is bad....
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 22, 2002, 06:13:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
You have to remember, part of the flashpoint for this current conflict was Ariel Sharon's perceived insult to the Palestinians on Temple Mount.


Ok, I'm sorry, but that just pisses me off (and you all know how hard it is for me to get pissed...). Not at you, GW, but that "reason" thing... a bunch of BS.

Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, not the freakin' Dome of the Rock!! And the Temple mount is (assuming these things can be measured and compared) far more of a holy spot to the Jews than the Dome is to the Muslims.

And yes, I see you wrote "perceived". And that's just the thing. It's bad enough that the Palestinians used that as an excuse; it just made them look like whiny children throwing temper tantrums. But for the world to "accept" that as a "legitimate" reason to get upset?!?! They should have told the PA "What the heck are you complaining about?! Stop being such cry-babies and grow up!". But noooo.... the world proved itself to be even more of an idiot for accepting that excuse.

So that's my Sabbath Rant™. *sigh* Shabbat shalom, y'all. :doubt:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Dr.Zer0 on June 22, 2002, 06:49:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich


Ok, I'm sorry, but that just pisses me off (and you all know how hard it is for me to get pissed...). Not at you, GW, but that "reason" thing... a bunch of BS.

Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, not the freakin' Dome of the Rock!! And the Temple mount is (assuming these things can be measured and compared) far more of a holy spot to the Jews than the Dome is to the Muslims.

And yes, I see you wrote "perceived". And that's just the thing. It's bad enough that the Palestinians used that as an excuse; it just made them look like whiny children throwing temper tantrums. But for the world to "accept" that as a "legitimate" reason to get upset?!?! They should have told the PA "What the heck are you complaining about?! Stop being such cry-babies and grow up!". But noooo.... the world proved itself to be even more of an idiot for accepting that excuse.

So that's my Sabbath Rant™. *sigh* Shabbat shalom, y'all. :doubt:


one thing I  feel like doing is just whiping out their holy land and see what they would do without  :doubt:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 22, 2002, 12:55:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
Shabbat shalom, y'all. :doubt:


Eh? As far as I know, you could be calling us all names or something... :D :p
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Snakeseyes on June 22, 2002, 03:08:58 pm
I believe that means "have a nice saturday", though not sure.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 23, 2002, 03:28:54 am
Quote
Originally posted by Snakeseyes
I believe that means "have a nice saturday", though not sure.


Shabbat = Sabbath (Saturday, day of rest)
Shalom = Hello, Goodbye, or in this case, Peace(ful)
Y'all = Uhhhh... I don't really have to translate this one, do I? :wtf: :nervous:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Bobboau on June 23, 2002, 04:03:52 am
your profile says Jerusalem, but you seem to be from more of a southern part of Isrial for some reason
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 23, 2002, 04:30:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
your profile says Jerusalem, but you seem to be from more of a southern part of Isrial for some reason


:doubt: What gives you that feeling? My use of "Y'all"? :p

To be honest, Gilo (my neighborhood) is the southernmost part of Jerusalem, right across the valley from Bethlehem, which is to the south. But "south" in Israel doesn't have the same connotations as it does in the US. :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Snakeseyes on June 23, 2002, 06:29:09 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich


Shabbat = Sabbath (Saturday, day of rest)
Shalom = Hello, Goodbye, or in this case, Peace(ful)


I was right then. :cool:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 23, 2002, 09:18:13 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, not the freakin' Dome of the Rock!! And the Temple mount is (assuming these things can be measured and compared) far more of a holy spot to the Jews than the Dome is to the Muslims.


Quote
And yes, I see you wrote "perceived". And that's just the thing. It's bad enough that the Palestinians used that as an excuse; it just made them look like whiny children throwing temper tantrums. But for the world to "accept" that as a "legitimate" reason to get upset?!?! They should have told the PA "What the heck are you complaining about?! Stop being such cry-babies and grow up!". But noooo.... the world proved itself to be even more of an idiot for accepting that excuse.[/B]


Anyone who whines and complains about religious fripperies is hardly creating a legitimate reason to do anything, IMO. In addition, why, may I ask with reference to the first quote do you feel the need to qualify Temple Mount as holier to Jews than Muslims? Sounds like a moral alibi to me.

In addition, the 'thought experiment' that you showed us earlier on seems flawed, in that it takes another set of unspoken assumptions on: that the Palestinians only want to destroy Israel, and that Israel would only ever defend itself. Would I be wrong to conjecture that in the absence of America holding her back, Israel would secure more territory for itself - a Greater Israel? Or that both sides would be so confused, shocked, alone that they wouldn't do anything? And that everyone would sit down and start writing Dadaist poetry? :p

As you can see, this kind of 'what if' speculation gets us nowhere fast.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 23, 2002, 09:55:54 am
OK, everyone needs to calm down. We don't need a civil war in this thread....
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: wEvil on June 23, 2002, 10:42:22 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan

And that everyone would sit down and start writing Dadaist poetry? :p


"what ifs" get nobody anywhere...at all.

But I think they'd be more likely to go nuts and kill each other - if I were there i'd leave, its got a great climate and it's a nice place and all, but if you're living next door to a bunch of people that are so nasty they simply cannot get on, shouldn't anyone consider living somewhere a little more stable?

At least that way the trouble would follow the guilty parties to wherever they moved to making identification of disruptive individuals easier.

Its a right-of-atilla-the-hun philosiphy, but sometimes you have to make a stupid move to break the dealock half the worlds currently in.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 23, 2002, 04:18:25 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
In addition, why, may I ask with reference to the first quote do you feel the need to qualify Temple Mount as holier to Jews than Muslims? Sounds like a moral alibi to me.

In addition, the 'thought experiment' that you showed us earlier on seems flawed, in that it takes another set of unspoken assumptions on: that the Palestinians only want to destroy Israel, and that Israel would only ever defend itself. Would I be wrong to conjecture that in the absence of America holding her back, Israel would secure more territory for itself - a Greater Israel? Or that both sides would be so confused, shocked, alone that they wouldn't do anything? And that everyone would sit down and start writing Dadaist poetry? :p

As you can see, this kind of 'what if' speculation gets us nowhere fast.


The Temple Mount is where the First and Second Temples were built. It is also known as Mt. Moriah, where Moses brought his son, Issac, before God to be sacrificed.

As for why the Muslims consider it to be a holy site, according to Islamic tradition, Mohammed went up to heaven from the rock over which the Dome of the Rock is built, hence the name. Here's a quote I found; simpler than re-typing it all myself:
Quote
The Koran actually mentions Mecca and Medina hundreds of times but the name of Jerusalem is not found. Mohammed never visited Jerusalem in the flesh. Muslims today cite the story of "Al Isra' wa Al Mi''rag," in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." According to Islamic legend, the Prophet Muhammad was carried by night in a dream "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." Muslims have identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem where Muhammad then ascended to heaven from the Dome of the Rock riding on his white steed.


Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
OK, everyone needs to calm down. We don't need a civil war in this thread....


If you're talking about Kellan and I, don't worry - we've had this discussion before on ICQ... I think. Can't really remember, actually. Anyway, we're not gonna bite heads off any time soon. :)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 23, 2002, 04:24:12 pm
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich

The Temple Mount is where the First and Second Temples were built. It is also known as Mt. Moriah, where Moses brought his son, Issac, before God to be sacrificed.
I thought it was Abraham.

An interesting little bit of trivia is that the Jews believe themselves to be descended from Isaac, while Muslims claim to be descended from Abraham's other son (I can't remember the name). Correct me if I'm wrong, OC.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 23, 2002, 04:56:38 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
I thought it was Abraham.

An interesting little bit of trivia is that the Jews believe themselves to be descended from Isaac, while Muslims claim to be descended from Abraham's other son (I can't remember the name). Correct me if I'm wrong, OC.


OOPS!! I always mix those up when I'm not thinking about it. Yeah, it was Abraham, not Moses.

And yes, the Jews are decendants of Issac, Abraham's son from Sarai, while the Arabs (Muslim defines a person's religious belief, not nationality) are decended from Ishmael, Abraham's son from Hagar.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 23, 2002, 10:24:27 pm
Well, you knew what I meant, right?

The thing I never got though was the fact that the Hebrews didn't reach the Promised Land until far after Abraham, but they still say that's where he tried to sacrifice Isaac....
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: icespeed on June 24, 2002, 02:14:00 am
abraham started off somewhere in ur (don't ask me where that is) then went up, across, down where israel is, into egypt, then back the other way towards israel again.

glad your okay sandwich.

i think not only being the relatives ofthe people killed would be bad- being the people killed isnt too good either.

theres no point in suicide bombing. you dont achieve anything unless you do something big like september 11, and then you get powerful countries annoyed at you.

what i dont really get is, isn't allah and jehovah the same god? basically?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 24, 2002, 02:57:31 am
Terrorism never achieves anything, no more how large the act is.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 24, 2002, 03:30:51 am
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
what i dont really get is, isn't allah and jehovah the same god? basically?


No!! :eek: I know this will either spark a flame or a intense "discussion", but I'll say it anyway: In my opinion, and according to the Christian faith, there is no other God but the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Allah, to put it bluntly, is either of the devil, or is Satan himself.

Again, this is according to my opinion alongside Christian faith. I know that most of you will heartily disagree, and you're welcome to believe what you want. But this is something I feel very strongly about, and I must do my best to uncover deception wherever I can.

On a different, and hopefully happier note, Icespeed, how's Eddie? Do you see him much nowadays?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Bobboau on June 24, 2002, 03:48:12 am
doesn't Islam calim Abraham as it's founder
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 24, 2002, 04:15:18 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
doesn't Islam calim Abraham as it's founder


Nope. It's the Arabs (not nessicarily Muslims) who have him as a patriarch ancestor figure type thing. Which is completely true.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 24, 2002, 09:21:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich

No!! :eek: I know this will either spark a flame or a intense "discussion", but I'll say it anyway: In my opinion, and according to the Christian faith, there is no other God but the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Allah, to put it bluntly, is either of the devil, or is Satan himself.


But if you look at the major (semitic, I guess) religions they have an awful lot of similarities. Can they not just call it quits and get along in one big, happy family? :p

As you can see, I reall aren't going to bit anyone's head off. :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CP5670 on June 24, 2002, 12:52:48 pm
Quote
But if you look at the major (semitic, I guess) religions they have an awful lot of similarities. Can they not just call it quits and get along in one big, happy family?  :p


Trying to make sense out of nonsense is a fairly fruitless task. :p :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 24, 2002, 02:03:21 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670

Trying to make sense out of nonsense is a fairly fruitless task. :p :D


Very well.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: heretic on June 24, 2002, 06:56:42 pm
sanwitch, did they broadcast Bush's speech today over there?
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: heretic on June 24, 2002, 06:58:59 pm
Quote

For too long, the citizens of the Middle East have lived in the midst of death and fear. The hatred of a few holds the hopes of many hostage. The forces of extremism and terror are attempting to kill progress and peace by killing the innocent. And this casts a dark shadow over an entire region. For the sake of all humanity, things must change in the Middle East.

It is untenable for Israeli citizens to live in terror. It is untenable for Palestinians to live in squalor and occupation. And the current situation offers no prospect that life will improve. Israeli citizens will continue to be victimized by terrorists, and so Israel will continue to defend herself.

In the situation the Palestinian people will grow more and more miserable. My vision is two states, living side by side in peace and security. There is simply no way to achieve that peace until all parties fight terror. Yet, at this critical moment, if all parties will break with the past and set out on a new path, we can overcome the darkness with the light of hope. Peace requires a new and different Palestinian leadership, so that a Palestinian state can be born.

I call on the Palestinian people to elect new leaders, leaders not compromised by terror. I call upon them to build a practicing democracy, based on tolerance and liberty. If the Palestinian people actively pursue these goals, America and the world will actively support their efforts. If the Palestinian people meet these goals, they will be able to reach agreement with Israel and Egypt and Jordan on security and other arrangements for independence

And when the Palestinian people have new leaders, new institutions and new security arrangements with their neighbors, the United States of America will support the creation of a Palestinian state whose borders and certain aspects of its sovereignty will be provisional until resolved as part of a final settlement in the Middle East.

In the work ahead, we all have responsibilities. The Palestinian people are gifted and capable, and I am confident they can achieve a new birth for their nation. A Palestinian state will never be created by terror -- it will be built through reform. And reform must be more than cosmetic change, or veiled attempt to preserve the status quo. True reform will require entirely new political and economic institutions, based on democracy, market economics and action against terrorism.

Today, the elected Palestinian legislature has no authority, and power is concentrated in the hands of an unaccountable few. A Palestinian state can only serve its citizens with a new constitution which separates the powers of government. The Palestinian parliament should have the full authority of a legislative body. Local officials and government ministers need authority of their own and the independence to govern effectively.

The United States, along with the European Union and Arab states, will work with Palestinian leaders to create a new constitutional framework, and a working democracy for the Palestinian people. And the United States, along with others in the international community will help the Palestinians organize and monitor fair, multi-party local elections by the end of the year, with national elections to follow.

Today, the Palestinian people live in economic stagnation, made worse by official corruption. A Palestinian state will require a vibrant economy, where honest enterprise is encouraged by honest government. The United States, the international donor community and the World Bank stand ready to work with Palestinians on a major project of economic reform and development. The United States, the EU, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund are willing to oversee reforms in Palestinian finances, encouraging transparency and independent auditing.

And the United States, along with our partners in the developed world, will increase our humanitarian assistance to relieve Palestinian suffering. Today, the Palestinian people lack effective courts of law and have no means to defend and vindicate their rights. A Palestinian state will require a system of reliable justice to punish those who prey on the innocent. The United States and members of the international community stand ready to work with Palestinian leaders to establish finance -- establish finance and monitor a truly independent judiciary.

Today, Palestinian authorities are encouraging, not opposing, terrorism. This is unacceptable. And the United States will not support the establishment of a Palestinian state until its leaders engage in a sustained fight against the terrorists and dismantle their infrastructure. This will require an externally supervised effort to rebuild and reform the Palestinian security services. The security system must have clear lines of authority and accountability and a unified chain of command.

America is pursuing this reform along with key regional states. The world is prepared to help, yet ultimately these steps toward statehood depend on the Palestinian people and their leaders. If they energetically take the path of reform, the rewards can come quickly. If Palestinians embrace democracy, confront corruption and firmly reject terror, they can count on American support for the creation of a provisional state of Palestine.

With a dedicated effort, this state could rise rapidly, as it comes to terms with Israel, Egypt and Jordan on practical issues, such as security. The final borders, the capital and other aspects of this state's sovereignty will be negotiated between the parties, as part of a final settlement. Arab states have offered their help in this process, and their help is needed.

I've said in the past that nations are either with us or against us in the war on terror. To be counted on the side of peace, nations must act. Every leader actually committed to peace will end incitement to violence in official media, and publicly denounce homicide bombings. Every nation actually committed to peace will stop the flow of money, equipment and recruits to terrorist groups seeking the destruction of Israel -- including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah. Every nation actually committed to peace must block the shipment of Iranian supplies to these groups, and oppose regimes that promote terror, like Iraq. And Syria must choose the right side in the war on terror by closing terrorist camps and expelling terrorist organizations.

Leaders who want to be included in the peace process must show by their deeds an undivided support for peace. And as we move toward a peaceful solution, Arab states will be expected to build closer ties of diplomacy and commerce with Israel, leading to full normalization of relations between Israel and the entire Arab world.


Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: heretic on June 24, 2002, 07:00:05 pm
Quote

Israel also has a large stake in the success of a democratic Palestine. Permanent occupation threatens Israel's identity and democracy. A stable, peaceful Palestinian state is necessary to achieve the security that Israel longs for. So I challenge Israel to take concrete steps to support the emergence of a viable, credible Palestinian state.

As we make progress towards security, Israel forces need to withdraw fully to positions they held prior to September 28, 2000. And consistent with the recommendations of the Mitchell Committee, Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories must stop.

The Palestinian economy must be allowed to develop. As violence subsides, freedom of movement should be restored, permitting innocent Palestinians to resume work and normal life. Palestinian legislators and officials, humanitarian and international workers, must be allowed to go about the business of building a better future. And Israel should release frozen Palestinian revenues into honest, accountable hands.

I've asked Secretary Powell to work intensively with Middle Eastern and international leaders to realize the vision of a Palestinian state, focusing them on a comprehensive plan to support Palestinian reform and institution-building.

Ultimately, Israelis and Palestinians must address the core issues that divide them if there is to be a real peace, resolving all claims and ending the conflict between them. This means that the Israeli occupation that began in 1967 will be ended through a settlement negotiated between the parties, based on U.N. Resolutions 242 and 338, with Israeli withdrawal to secure and recognize borders.

We must also resolve questions concerning Jerusalem, the plight and future of Palestinian refugees, and a final peace between Israel and Lebanon, and Israel and a Syria that supports peace and fights terror.

All who are familiar with the history of the Middle East realize that there may be setbacks in this process. Trained and determined killers, as we have seen, want to stop it. Yet the Egyptian and Jordanian peace treaties with Israel remind us that with determined and responsible leadership progress can come quickly.

As new Palestinian institutions and new leaders emerge, demonstrating real performance on security and reform, I expect Israel to respond and work toward a final status agreement. With intensive effort by all, this agreement could be reached within three years from now. And I and my country will actively lead toward that goal.

I can understand the deep anger and anguish of the Israeli people. You've lived too long with fear and funerals, having to avoid markets and public transportation, and forced to put armed guards in kindergarten classrooms. The Palestinian Authority has rejected your offer at hand, and trafficked with terrorists. You have a right to a normal life; you have a right to security; and I deeply believe that you need a reformed, responsible Palestinian partner to achieve that security.

I can understand the deep anger and despair of the Palestinian people. For decades you've been treated as pawns in the Middle East conflict. Your interests have been held hostage to a comprehensive peace agreement that never seems to come, as your lives get worse year by year. You deserve democracy and the rule of law. You deserve an open society and a thriving economy. You deserve a life of hope for your children. An end to occupation and a peaceful democratic Palestinian state may seem distant, but America and our partners throughout the world stand ready to help, help you make them possible as soon as possible.

If liberty can blossom in the rocky soil of the West Bank and Gaza, it will inspire millions of men and women around the globe who are equally weary of poverty and oppression, equally entitled to the benefits of democratic government.

I have a hope for the people of Muslim countries. Your commitments to morality, and learning, and tolerance led to great historical achievements. And those values are alive in the Islamic world today. You have a rich culture, and you share the aspirations of men and women in every culture. Prosperity and freedom and dignity are not just American hopes, or Western hopes. They are universal, human hopes. And even in the violence and turmoil of the Middle East, America believes those hopes have the power to transform lives and nations.

This moment is both an opportunity and a test for all parties in the Middle East: an opportunity to lay the foundations for future peace; a test to show who is serious about peace and who is not. The choice here is stark and simple. The Bible says, "I have set before you life and death; therefore, choose life." The time has arrived for everyone in this conflict to choose peace, and hope, and life.

Thank you very much.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 24, 2002, 08:32:13 pm
Quote
Originally posted by icespeed
i dont really get is, isn't allah and jehovah the same god, basically?
Yes, Sandwich is spewing crap. Traditionally, Jews and Christians were honored in Muslim society as being partially enlightened, but the radical interpretations used by the terrorist organizations disregard this.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 25, 2002, 03:13:51 am
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Traditionally, Jews and Christians were honored in Muslim society as being partially enlightened, but the radical interpretations used by the terrorist organizations disregard this.


What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The question was about whether the God of Judaisim/Christianity and the god of Islam are one and the same.

And currently, new Christians in Muslim countries live in fear for their lives, because if they are found out, they will be imprisoned, tortued, and put to death.

One thing that bothers me is that people call these terrorists "Islamic Fundamentalists", or "Islamic Extremists", and go on about how Islam is a religion of peace. Bull.

The Muslims living in the Western world are not your "average" Muslim. They are (in general) very nice people, who have forgone some of the basic tenets of their religion in order to live peacefully in western society. But taking them as an example of the Islamic faith is like measuring the rainfall by placing a cup under a leafy tree. What little water you get in that cup is filtered by the leaves of the western world.

To get a true example of a "standard" Muslim, one must "go to the mountain" - the Middle East, wherein dwell all those crazy, extremist Islamic factions. {/sarcasam}

Those are the ones who follow the Koran. The label of "extremists" is in error, but the label of "fundamentalists" is suprisingly accurate. They adhere to the fundamentals of their religion.

Now don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that every "true" Muslim is a terrorist - not at all. But those terrorist acts against Judaisim and Christianity (did you truly think the current conflict in Israel and the 9/11 attacks, respectively, were anything else?) line up with the directives in the Koran just fine.

So don't tell me that Allah and Yahweh are one and the same.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 25, 2002, 03:24:00 am
As a non-practicing atheist, I find this rather amusing. :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 25, 2002, 03:26:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
As a non-practicing atheist, I find this rather amusing. :D


Glad I could be of service....

Uhm.... What the heck is a non-practicing atheist???
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 25, 2002, 03:34:33 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
Uhm.... What the heck is a non-practicing atheist???
I'm a natural.  I don't need practice. :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 25, 2002, 03:38:13 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
I'm a natural.  I don't need practice. :D


No, really - I'm intrigued by your self-definition. Non-practicing generally referrs to something that isn't taken seriously enough to be bothered with on a day-to-day basis, so what's it referring to in this case? Your atheism or something else?

Shrike..... have you been slipping in your daily atheistic devotionals - again? Tsk tsk... you must be getting careless... :lol:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 25, 2002, 03:40:07 am
Well, the definition of an atheist is basically one who defines their sprituality by defying the existence of a/the diety(ies).  But I see no real need to do that, so I'm non-practicing.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 25, 2002, 03:42:11 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Well, the definition of an atheist is basically one who defines their sprituality by defying the existence of a/the diety(ies).  But I see no real need to do that, so I'm non-practicing.


Ahh - clear as mud. :D j/k
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 25, 2002, 03:43:11 am
What's there to explain?

I don't feel the need to express my spirituality by the denial of 'higher powers.'  :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 25, 2002, 03:45:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
What's there to explain?

I don't feel the need to express my spirituality by the denial of 'higher powers.'  :D


Is that because you don't feel the need for spirituality at all? ;)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Shrike on June 25, 2002, 03:51:37 am
Not really, no.  I prefer rationality or at least an understanding of human nature.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Carl on June 25, 2002, 04:08:50 am
[size=8] ALL YOUR RELIGON ARE BELONG TO US!!!![/size]

Allah is the muslim name for Jehovah. you could say that they are the same.



...but you'd be wrong :p
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CP5670 on June 25, 2002, 07:16:22 am
Spirituality is equal to inconsistency as far as I care. :p and also, my imaginary man is better than your imaginary man! |-|4\/\/ |-|4\/\/ |-|4\/\/! :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 25, 2002, 07:22:16 am
Quote
Originally posted by Carl
ALL YOUR RELIGON ARE BELONG TO US!!!!


ROFL!!

Quote
Originally posted by Carl
Allah is the muslim name for Jehovah. you could say that they are the same.



...but you'd be wrong :p


Not quite... the literal word "allah" in Arabic would be translated as "God". Yaweh, which in Hebrew is the equivalent letters to YHVH or YHWH, does not quite have an equivalent. "Y" in Hebrew has been translated in many versions of the Bible into a "J", hence you have Jehovah, Joshua, Jeremiah and Jesus. Hebrew doesn't have a real "J", so basically everywhere you see "J" in a Hebrew/Biblical name, know that it's really a "Y". Jesus's real name is pronounced in Hebrew "Yeshua".

Anyways, because of all that there can be "innocent" mix-ups, but make no mistake: the Allah that the Muslims worship is most definetly not YHWH.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: an0n on June 25, 2002, 07:26:08 am
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich
Anyways, because of all that there can be "innocent" mix-ups, but make no mistake: the Allah that the Muslims worship is most definetly not YHWH.

Yeah, Jehovah was much less "Slaughter your enemies".
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 25, 2002, 08:15:40 am
Oh, NO! This is turning into another religion thread!! :eek:

Okay, if CP starts his speeches again I'm gonna kill someone, and it won't be painless!! :D


Nah, not really. :p
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: wEvil on June 25, 2002, 08:20:42 am
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
Oh, NO! This is turning into another religion thread!! :eek:

Okay, if CP starts his speeches again I'm gonna kill someone, and it won't be painless!! :D


Nah, not really. :p


Popcorn....check.
Cuppa tea...check.
Cranium....check.

*settles back to enjoy the show*

:headz:
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 25, 2002, 08:32:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
Popcorn....check.
Cuppa tea...check.
Cranium....check.

*settles back to enjoy the show*

:headz:


You forgot to check the poking sktick... :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: wEvil on June 25, 2002, 08:35:59 am
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx


You forgot to check the poking sktick... :D


I have a standard-issue HLP shotgun in the holster to my left ;)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Styxx on June 25, 2002, 08:59:37 am
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
I have a standard-issue HLP shotgun in the holster to my left ;)


Ah, well. I guess you'll have to poke people with that then... :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 25, 2002, 09:47:51 am
We could just revive that old "OT - Religion..." thread if we want... :p
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 25, 2002, 12:56:19 pm
Okay, just to wrench us back on-topic, rather than talking about that "clash of civilizations" (bah :blah: )...

Bush's speech was a pile of crap. There, that's got the vitriol out of the way. However, I have some serious points as well, rather than unsupported insults. Basically, Bush's speech:
So yeah...ummm, that's all for now. :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Zeronet on June 25, 2002, 03:24:46 pm
The PA is very corrupt, everyone knows that. The best thing the Palestinians can do is stop blowing themselves up. The more they blow themselves up, the more the IDF will lock down there areas to try and prevent them blowing themselves up, once the suiciding bombers stop, the peace process could resume possibly.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CP5670 on June 25, 2002, 04:13:43 pm
I also thought that the Bush speech was mostly nonsense but for different reasons. In my opinion this whole "peace process" the way they are doing it right now is a useless effort; the ideas of "blowing yourself up for your god" and the "evil West" have been firmly embedded into the minds of the common Palestinian people. Both sides says they want peace, but that really means nothing as they will readily sacrifice the peace to hold or to reclaim their lands. The best solution would be for Israel to set up a full military campaign and occupy the entire region (a piece of cake considering the size of the PA), and immediately begin heavy media-based propaganda conditioning along with defamation of existing leaders. They really made a big mistake when they let Arafat go IMHO; it was a perfect opportunity to capture him there.

Quote

Okay, if CP starts his speeches again I'm gonna kill someone, and it won't be painless!! :D


I would be happy to oblige, but someone needs to start a fight first. :D :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Stryke 9 on June 25, 2002, 04:38:34 pm
Y'know, Sitting Bull was a militant, too. I think most of us armchair politicos here (which I'll tentatively include myself in, since I haven't been in anything really significant or headed off to the trenches yet) have lost sight of a simple fact: there are (famously) only two ways to change something, politically. The Palestinians, driven off their land, oppressed, colonized, pushed onto reservation-ghettoes and shot at regularly for something one of their number whom they have never even heard of, lack the privelidge of the ballot to improve things. Replace Arafat and you'll either get a weakling who lets Sharon send his people to the gas chambers and take over everything, a zealot who will kill thousands more innocent people on both sides, or another puppet. No other solution. So they opt for Arafat and the bullet, in the hopes that if they die, at least they will die gloriously in what is to them the greatest cause of all. Thus, the war.

Israel has the problem of being stuck in between its most virulent enemies, and, as a state, of having been created by unjust means in the first place. Whatever it may be now, right or wrong, the way in which Israel was created was flat-out wrong, and thus sparked hostilities that will never be assuaged. Israel has a similar problem- caught between two equally fatal situations. One, they elect a peacemaker, who doesn't order tanks off to murder civilians every time a Palestinian kills himself and others- this guy would, quite naturally, get screwed, and be no defense, as local hatreds run too deep on both sides to make anything much better under the current conditions. Two, they elect a warlord, a murderer like Sharon- someone who can HOPEFULLY scare off the enemy. Problem there is, as Sharon illustrates, these warlords seem to have a penchant for civilian massacre and genocide, and at any rate you honestly cannot frighten a people who have nothing to lose, such as the Palestinians. Sharon can certainly keep his legitimate-state neighbors at bay, but as far as Palestine goes he can only bloody Israel's otherwise good name, and make his nation become (slowly) the greater of two evils, so that when the reckoning time cones Israel is worse off for bargaining than ever. A fatuous imbecile like Bush, who gets his opinions from the papers he is handed and knows only vaguely what the Palestinian and Israeli causes are, can make this last disadvantage seem less influential in external relations, but in the end can only do that.

The solution, as I see it, is to sieze the Pentagon and lay siege to Washington with an army of 10,000 revolutionaries.

Oh, you mean for Israel? None, none at all. So long as Israelis and Arabs are in he same region, they will massacre each other. One side or the other might eventually wipe its opponent out completely, but in the process will have waged mass murder greater than any Hitler could have concieved of. Odds are, in the end, things will end up between Israelis and Palestinians much the same way things ended up between the Indian tribes and Europeans on this coast (in the reverse order, of course). In other words, we have the privelidge of watching one of the most monstrous activities man can ever engage in. Observe, and take it instructively- there's little or nothing else we can do about it.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: RoachKoach on June 25, 2002, 06:15:44 pm
no fear sandwich bro, once ive taken over the world i'll let you shoot Arafat, oh yeah, Bush you can have Saddam too...
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: RoachKoach on June 25, 2002, 06:20:36 pm
that stuff about the gods is bizzarre, didnt know about all that, and hope none of u guys subscribe to it either. lets just say, the gods would not be pleased if they knew.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CODEDOG ND on June 25, 2002, 07:29:33 pm
Well the PA might just sucide bomb until they run out of people too. :D

They need to understand that Israel is not going to let them go and live with it.  No matter how many times they try to make their lives better by blowing themselves up they are just making the situation worse.

Ok now going OT for a little bit.

Bush is not my first choice for President, but he also wasn't my last.  His foriegn policies suck, but most people didn't vote for him because of his foriegn relations.  They voted for him because most were tired of liberal ways with Pro-Abortion(Don't Get Me Started On That), Anti-Gun, and the way Clinton had acted in both Somolia, Bosnia, and Lebanon; not to mention Monica(GASP!).  I really didn't want him for president.  I was hoping for McCain to win the Republican nomination and he would have if he didn't drop out of the race.  However, it wouldn't have matter if Gore or Nader or even Alan Keyes would have won.  The President is the President and I will always stand by the President's choices even if they are not the ones I would have made.

I myself am a "Right Wing Conservative", and also a Capitalist.  I don't like the idea of Socialism and Communism because the country I'm from, the United States, is based on Capitalism and it grew into a thriving country off its Capitalist Views.  What does Communism and Socialism have to offer?  Equality?  I don't think so.  Stalin wasn't begging off the streets when some of his people were he was too busy killing them.  People are more willing to make themselves better educated if they have the ability to make more money.  In Communism, why bother with going to college and becoming a doctor if your just going to make the same amount as your local trashman?  Believe it or not most people do not have ambition about what they want to do for a living.  

All government systems do have their flaws, but why try to bring down the "rich" people in the world?  Are they all bad?  Or are most people jealous because at some point in their lives or their ascentors lives somebody decided to make something of themselves so that thier children and their children's children will not have to worry about money and debt?  So their family could have the good things in life that a Capitalist government lets you have?  I'm not rich, I am middle-class and work at a barely above mininium wage job, and my parents do give me a place to live and food but that is about it.  I've noticed a lot,but not all, of you sit nicely in your parents house with no job and a computer they paid for complaining about a system that lets you have all those things even though others do not because somebody in your family decided to work and earn them.  Capitalism is like a reward system, you go to college and specialize in something, you worked for your specialization skills, bingo.  You earn more money than somebody that did not want to work at high school and dropped out.  

Don't blame others because for your money problems.  Do you think they ask to be born to a wealthy family?  
They were just fortunate to be however.  And then you have people like Henry Ford which worked his way from the bottom to the top and was able to better his way of life and his families, and he also provided for many other families as well by giving them jobs in his factories making a product that changed not only America, but the world.  Another example would be a family friend of ours that was your "Average Joe" that worked on Oil Rigs.  Why should he be marked as a bad corporate man just because he had the idea to make a part, forgot what it was, that saved the company he worked for and other companies a lot of money, while it also secured his family with wealth?  Lacy now owns three banks, a hotel, a marina, and a restraunt.  

Some of you guys that are complaining about the US government live somewhere else like the UK, Finland, etc.  That is ok, you don't live here.  And others that live in the United States that are complaining about a screwed up government and how they hate most of the people that are elected.  The United States of America is NOT] a democracy like the media tells you.  Whoever started calling it a democracy should be shot.  It was setup as a Representative Republic and YOU elect people to make descisions for YOU!  Not make the descisions yourself.  If you live in the U.S. and don't like it, then leave!  Or I forgot...for some of you, your mommy won't let you.  You see that flag with the colors of old glory red, old glory blue and white where ever you might see one?  Love it!  Or Leave it!  The U.S. government is not keeping you here.

 A Democracy is where the people vote on everything.  Democracy is mob-rule and mob-rule, it doesn't matter if your religious or not, let a murder go just so they could see an innocent man be crucified.  You know who that he was, or for some including myself still is?  Chirst.  Even I think CP would agree that it is not logical to let somebody go that might kill someone else, since he's done it before, just so some people can see a man that's done nothing wrong be.

Ok...now back on topic please....:)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: heretic on June 25, 2002, 07:43:32 pm
you do know you can write in a vote...


I wrote in John McCain :)
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CODEDOG ND on June 25, 2002, 07:46:22 pm
I didn't even bother.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Martinus on June 25, 2002, 08:02:36 pm
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil


I have a standard-issue HLP shotgun in the holster to my left ;)


[public service announcement type voice]Use discretion when blasting poster![/public service announcement type voice]
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CP5670 on June 25, 2002, 09:13:49 pm
Quote
Y'know, Sitting Bull was a militant, too.

[rest of post]


I agree with most of your points there; considering the history of that region, I would be quite surprised if a lasting peace came about anytime soon. The most probable outcome seems to me that things will end with an eventual Israeli conquest of all the surrounding nations (they have the military force and technology, regardless of whether they are "right" or "wrong"), being followed by a few decades of military occupation. Ideologies can only be eliminated with the passing of time.

Quote

Ok now going OT for a little bit.

[rest of post]


I am not of voting age so I didn't have to deal with that this time, but I am not heavily in favor of either of the major parties. (I am essentially an extreme radical but there are things I like and do not like about both parties)

I somewhat agree with what you are saying about the rich people, which is why I am not heavily supporting the Democrats, but if this nation actually operated like that, it would essentially become an oligarchy of the corporation owners. One thing that I would really, really like to see is a law that bans all forms of lobbying with any government officials or institutions. Currently, the ones with the money can simply wave some cash under the government officials' noses and indirectly control the whole system; this is simply ridiculous.

I have lived my entire life in the US but I'm not against communism at all in principle alone - in fact, I really like the system - but it does not lend itself well to the current social and cultural era, since the issue of the incentive is a big problem at the moment. Also, Stalinism is not really a good example of communism, as it operated more like a military dictatorship.

Quote
A Democracy is where the people vote on everything. Democracy is mob-rule and mob-rule, it doesn't matter if your religious or not, let a murder go just so they could see an innocent man be crucified. You know who that he was, or for some including myself still is? Chirst. Even I think CP would agree that it is not logical to let somebody go that might kill someone else, since he's done it before, just so some people can see a man that's done nothing wrong be.


I might have agreed with that but I am not sure what you are trying to say; obviously I agree that potential threats should be eliminated, but I didn't quite get the last part. But he an innocent man? bah! He has to be among the worst men who ever lived, right up there with all the other prophets; just look at the incredible influence this one singular individual has had upon the whole world. When such a thing occurs, future paradigms become unpredictable.

Quote
that stuff about the gods is bizzarre, didnt know about all that, and hope none of u guys subscribe to it either. lets just say, the gods would not be pleased if they knew.


Like I said, my imaginary man is better than your imaginary man! |>|-|€£/2! ;7
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CODEDOG ND on June 25, 2002, 10:59:02 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670







I might have agreed with that but I am not sure what you are trying to say



I'm trying to say that doing things just because the people want it is normally based upon irrational descisions based upon the times.  Like the anti-drinking laws of the 20's.  They were irrational and worthless.  However, drunken accidents decreased, organized crime counter balanced the objective.  Just because at a certain time or mood in a society calls for some kind of law or a certain descision to be made, you can't rely on the people because in 20 years they probably will want it changed.  Then in 20 years they'll want it back.  That is why we elect people to try and make rational descisions, even though they sometimes don't, like in the 20's, which left a big scar on the Constitution.  I was trying to make an example that, I thought, most could understand.  Even if you think Jesus was a crazy man that claimed to be the king of the Jews, does that mean you can kill him and let somebody you know is evil and will most likely kill again go free just because the people want it?  That is where Democracy fails, and that is why I don't like the media calling the U.S. and Democracy when it clearly is not.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Carl on June 25, 2002, 11:32:51 pm
it's like that episode of andromeda. "if you want peace, bless our warriors." *warriors got and blow up their enemies' star system*

the easiest way to have absolute peace is to have no opposition. hence, the palestinians blow up the israelies.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Grey Wolf on June 25, 2002, 11:40:35 pm
Sandwich, to truly assess this, you must view this from a 3rd-person perspective, prefferably one which doesn't favor destroying everything :D

But anyway, the fact that the Palestinian militants want to destroy Israel is not a true cross-section of the Palestinian people. I bet that if we took your standard, mild-mannered, peace-loving Palestinian and your standard, mild-mannered, peace-loving Israeli, they'd probably get along pretty well. If you didn't talk about religion, they probably would be very similar, other than the fact that the Muslim would be sober all the time due to the ban on alchohol. Most people's opinions are based on what they hear in the media, whether independent, corporate, or state-run. You have to remember that all these sources are BIASED. BIAS is BAD. You get misconceptions, which are formed into beliefs. If you were to base your opinions on what the media reports, you'd probably think that all Americans are pot-smoking, acid-taking, drunken bastards who complain all the time and get into accidents (BTW, most of that is wrong expcept for the fact that quite a few people do complain that much.)

But anyway, always use common-sense when considering this sort of subject. Are they all blood-thirsty terrorists? Or are they most likely normal people?

On another note, "Jihad" does not mean just "Holy War". AFAIK, it mean service to Islam in many different forms.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: CP5670 on June 26, 2002, 12:34:07 am
Quote
I'm trying to say that doing things just because the people want it is normally based upon irrational descisions based upon the times.


Ah, I now see what you mean. I certainly do agree there; that is the bad thing about the democracy, but the republic also has that problem. As you said, the average person is an incredible fool and does not have the capacity to make any proper decisions. The solution to this would seem to be something like Szilard's "Der Bund," where the entire nation is run as an oligarchy of a select intellectual elite. However, the problem with this is that the people need to somehow be kept quiet - or they will revolt - while still keeping the production and economy running. (and allowing the generation of new ideas) The alcohol laws were quite a good idea in theory, but just like communism, impractical for the current cultural era.

Quote
But anyway, always use common-sense when considering this sort of subject. Are they all blood-thirsty terrorists? Or are they most likely normal people?


The thing is that a "normal person" can be turned into a fanatical suicide bomber very easily (and vice versa), so it would make little difference whether one examined a normal guy or a terrorist. (you might have heard that these terrorist guys were actually quite normal people otherwise)

Quote
On another note, "Jihad" does not mean just "Holy War". AFAIK, it mean service to Islam in many different forms.


They say that the original word does mean "struggle," but it has a different connotation to it; something like an inner struggle for the perfection of mind and body. Did you hear about that university student who made the "my American Jihad" speech? That guy must have been quite a character. :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: RoachKoach on June 26, 2002, 01:02:17 am
hey, is communism that bad? ok the soviet union collapsed, but look at china, look at the progress...

when u need reforms and to turn stuff round u need stuff like communsm, thats why Gen. Musharraf took over Pak, and thats why China seems to run on very oiled wheels (seems, not 100% sure. i know they have their problems, shocking stuff my dad learned when he vsited on work. dyou know a man cant move from province to province there, wihout a permit? this guy he met, he had to live alone, in some big city, while his wife n kids cant stay with hm, cos they arent allowed to, and he gets to seem them every 2 months) ok, stuff like that is bad, but if communism is kept clean and rational, it is by far one of the most efficient ways to run a country. it is sickening to see what politicians of countries, like in ours, have done to it. take india for example, we just won our freedom just over 50 yrs back, after 200 years of bloody struggle, and in 50 years, they have destroyed everything that the great guys who won us our freedom had envisioned. the corruption is complete, and every 2 days u hear of a scam, along with other headlines like "so many dead in kashmir", "so and so kills so many over some stupid reason" , etc. the general public r turning out to be sick minded in cities. this might sound rediculous, but a man actually killed his neighbour for accidently killing his chicken, a few months back.

then we had the **** in gujarat, sheer massacre, i was truelly ashamed of beeing associated with a bunch of nuts like those fellows. my point is democracy offers too much freedom, people donot fear the system, so they bend it to their needs. politicians just look for power, and make "reforms" that just attract votes. as a student, i am filled with disgust by a system of reservations, for people of lower or backward classes, and recently women. the result, with 80% in my 12th standard, i couldnt get a good college, cos 50% of the seats rnt even open to me. i go to college and i see the evil, here i am with 80%, and heres another guy, with just 48%, who isnt even interested in doing his engineering, in my same frickin class!!! with communism, **** like this wouldnt happen, or maybe im looking for a dictatorship. as anakin says, "if it works" , why not?

the israel problem actually is partly israel's doing. no new phenomenon, all major crises in the world are mostly the doing of the very nation most affected, israel n palestine, us and the taliban, though they seem to have partially mopped em up, and right here between us good ol neighbours, the now nuclear nuts. well israels strategy of blowing up the terrorists before they blow emselves up does make a bit of sense, but how do spot a terrorist amongst a crowd? or do you kill em all? stuff like the rocket attack by helicopters on a road, that destroyed 2 cars, killing 6 palestinians saddens me, that isnt right, what did those guys do? they were probably terrified people running away in any case. unfortunately, we dont have a palestinian in our midst to hear the story the other way, israel being a freindly nation to india, causes the media to be somewhat biased in her favour, other than the fact that the situation is similar to our problems, so much so that top officials have said we should do exactly what israel does.

problem is itll never end that way. the solution eludes me, the only way possible, for peace, however uneasy it is, is walls, isolation, better bordr patrolling and screening, if no palestinian can get thru into israel, kinda ends the problem there doesnt it? have shoot at sight orders within a distance from this wall, at least that way, ull kill less people.

and people, this , i really feel, is not about religion, if it was, things would have been worse. if we start hating people just cos theyre different, we're all finished anyways, specially me , not too many of us around :D
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: RoachKoach on June 26, 2002, 01:07:34 am
as for bush, i dont know, he gives me the impresion of a puppet leader, sometimes decisive, and the next moment soft about the same glaring issue. dont know what internal pressures exist on him, so mostly im wrong, and for hardcore bush supporters, im wrong anyways :D

one thing i dont like, and that is the thing of having saddam assasinated. who'll be next? u shouldnt be allowed to, should even think of doing stuff like that. fine ur the superpower, but dont misuse ur status, ull just invite more freaks like osama to eye your liberty (statue included)



heres where i get nuked *runs to afghanistan*
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Kellan on June 26, 2002, 03:48:46 am
Wow, this thread has been all over the place since yesterday evening. I'll try and address some comments now, and some later when I've had time to collect them all. :)

The main thing I have to comment on now is to (guess who) CP. Now there's a surprise. :D

Basically, whilst I have every reason to believe that your idea of mass conditioning of populations and military conquest of enemies would bring about a more lasting peace than current measures being undertaken, morally it is utterly reprehensible to me. Now I can imagine from what you've talked about in the past that your 'benefit of society' schtick covers the losses that this would lead to in terms of liberty, equality and lives. ;) Not in my book, I'm afraid. It should be fairly obvious why...

1. It would lead to casualties on both sides that could have been avoided.

2. It would be an attack on currently peaceful nations.

3. It doesn't do much for self-determination, and would essentially diffuse the Jewish nature of Israel that makes it unique anyway.

4. It messes with people's free wills in very obvious ways. Now, since it would be building on previous conditioning I don't suppose that counts as a factor. The fact remains though that it would be propaganda, not truth - hardly a step towards a brighter future. It's altogther too Nazi for my tastes.

5. The implementation of such a policy would likely involve restrictions on the civil liberties of the affected groups; they would in effect become second-class citizens. Unless the programme to make them amenable was accompanied by one to make Israelis accept them as normal human beings as well, there might also be a tendency to mistreat them for the crimes of the past.

Feel free to dispute...I shall be back once I have packed for my holiday. :p
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: wEvil on June 26, 2002, 04:05:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
4. It messes with people's free wills in very obvious ways. Now, since it would be building on previous conditioning I don't suppose that counts as a factor. The fact remains though that it would be propaganda, not truth - hardly a step towards a brighter future. It's altogther too Nazi for my tastes.
[/b]

Any kind of education can be said to be exploitational conditioning by the establishment.

Of course, if you're educated to the point where you start thinking for yourself, you become an antisocial/terrorist and can no longer easily effect changes in that system.

The biggest problem, IMhO, is that nobody really understands the mentality behind these suicide bombers - maybe if you could just make them understand it doesnt matter who claims the land because you can't exactly own it when you're dead, can you?

Quote

Feel free to dispute...I shall be back once I have packed for my holiday. :p


You lucky.....
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Blitz_Lightning on June 26, 2002, 04:34:43 am
Quote
An interesting little bit of trivia is that the Jews believe themselves to be descended from Isaac, while Muslims claim to be descended from Abraham's other son (I can't remember the name). Correct me if I'm wrong, OC.

Abraham's other son is Ishmael, who the Muslims are descended from.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 26, 2002, 05:04:35 am
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Sandwich, to truly assess this, you must view this from a 3rd-person perspective, prefferably one which doesn't favor destroying everything :D

But anyway, the fact that the Palestinian militants want to destroy Israel is not a true cross-section of the Palestinian people. I bet that if we took your standard, mild-mannered, peace-loving Palestinian and your standard, mild-mannered, peace-loving Israeli, they'd probably get along pretty well. If you didn't talk about religion, they probably would be very similar, other than the fact that the Muslim would be sober all the time due to the ban on alchohol. Most people's opinions are based on what they hear in the media, whether independent, corporate, or state-run. You have to remember that all these sources are BIASED. BIAS is BAD. You get misconceptions, which are formed into beliefs. If you were to base your opinions on what the media reports, you'd probably think that all Americans are pot-smoking, acid-taking, drunken bastards who complain all the time and get into accidents (BTW, most of that is wrong expcept for the fact that quite a few people do complain that much.)

But anyway, always use common-sense when considering this sort of subject. Are they all blood-thirsty terrorists? Or are they most likely normal people?


So, of course they'd get along - that's exactly what heppened in the area before Oslo! It even happens to a certain extent today - just last night my brother went to a going-away party for a friend of his - they went to eat in Abu-Gosh, an Arab neighborhood on the outskirts of Jerusalem. Israelis go there all the time, mainly for the restaurants, which are simply outstanding. The people running those places are, to the best of my knowledge, Israeli-Arabs. Do you know what the difference is between a Palestinian and an Israeli Arab? (sounds like the beginning of a joke, I know - but it ain't) The Israeli-Arab has Israeli citizenship, while the Palestinian doesn't. That's it. So you have today a situation where Jew and Arab not only "get along", but out-and-out profit from an ongoing relationship.

So why the hatred on the Palestinian side? Why can't they realize that we can live in relative peace and harmony, without blowing each other up?

Indoctrination. The Palestinian children are brought up with the notion that Israel is an enemy, that becoming a martyr is oh-so glorious, etc etc. Before the Oslo accords, the Abu-Gosh situation was repeated throughout the country - Jews and Arabs living in harmony with each other.

And don't assume that I have misconceptions about Americans, Grey Wolf. In case you didn't know (apparently you didn't...), I'm an American just as much as any other American. Born and raised, etc etc. :)

Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
On another note, "Jihad" does not mean just "Holy War". AFAIK, it mean service to Islam in many different forms.


Quote
From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
[color=444490]ji·had[/color][/size] also [color=444490]je·had[/color] (jĭ-häd' (http://www.atomica.com/lookup2/pronkey.html))(http://www.atomica.com/content2/img/pron.gif) (http://www.atomica.com/content2/ahd4/pron/J0027800.wav).
n.
[list=1]
  • A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
  • A crusade or struggle: “The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke” (Fortune).
    [/list=1]
    [Arabic jihâd, from jahada, to strive.]
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Blitz_Lightning on June 26, 2002, 05:12:55 am
Yes, although Jihad means "holy war", Jihad can only end when Islam takes over the whole world. According to Islam, the world is split up into two: Al-dar-Harb (land of the lawless) and Al-dar-Islam (land of the lawful). These two lands are in constant conflict until either Islam takes over the world or is wiped out. This war doesn't end until the whole world submits to Islam.
Title: Don't worry, I'm alive
Post by: Sandwich on June 26, 2002, 07:05:49 am
Quote
Originally posted by Blitz_Lightning
Yes, although Jihad means "holy war", Jihad can only end when Islam takes over the whole world. According to Islam, the world is split up into two: Al-dar-Harb (land of the lawless) and Al-dar-Islam (land of the lawful). These two lands are in constant conflict until either Islam takes over the world or is wiped out. This war doesn't end until the whole world submits to Islam.


Well then, there you go. That's why I don't believe there will ever be a lasting peace between those that adhere faithfully to Islam and the rest of the world.

The Muslims that people in Western countries are familiar with personally usually aren't the kind that strictly adhere to Islam, therefore the West doesn't truly understand what the situation is like.