Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Col.Hornet on September 22, 2012, 06:11:08 pm
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hmm... i see it as the UEF's logistics unit :D
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hmm... i see it as the UEF's logistics unit :D
The UEF don't need and so don't have logistics vessels. They're operating on the home front, with their main manufacturing bases a jump or two away.
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Cybertrance: If it gets included in BP, it's more likely to replace the Anemoi than anything else, I think. Looks far more like a GTVA ship than a UEF one anyway.
Hades: I said it before, but it looks really great.
not to mention I dont think the UEF has a position for a Logistics vessle, they even ***** about how stupid the GTVA is to deploy such large civilian ship into a combat zone, talking about the loss of the Collossus not teaching them that bigger is not always better
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I didn't think I needed to mention that, since everyone else did.
And I always found the point about the Colossus amusing because the Solaris destroyers are the biggest ships in Sol.
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I didn't think I needed to mention that, since everyone else did.
And I always found the point about the Colossus amusing because the Solaris destroyers are the biggest ships in Sol.
very true, by 500 meters. But then many in the UEF considered them an extravogant waste before the GTVA invasion, given their lack of battlefield presence it could be argued they still are a waste, though they are probably a cause for Steele to closely examine each battle plan just in case.
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Cybertrance: If it gets included in BP, it's more likely to replace the Anemoi than anything else, I think. Looks far more like a GTVA ship than a UEF one anyway.
Hades: I said it before, but it looks really great.
not to mention I dont think the UEF has a position for a Logistics vessle, they even ***** about how stupid the GTVA is to deploy such large civilian ship into a combat zone, talking about the loss of the Collossus not teaching them that bigger is not always better
They're also complete hypocrites/morons for saying something like that, given how Sol would be a depopulated graveyard if it weren't for the Galatea, Bastion, etc. The Colossus, even if considered impractical, saved the entire GTVA twice over and almost singlehandedly crushed the NTF. It was certainly useful as a political/cultural/morale tool, with a 20-year, huge, joint Terran-Vasudan project that was crewed by 30,000 Terrans and Vasudans.
Oh, and the Wargods mocking the Tevs for building destroyer-sized freighters while in the middle of a bold, critical mission to neutralize/capture such a ship because it's giving them hell and giving the Tevs a huge logistical, tactical, and strategic advantage is just plain hilarious.
If you put the three Solaris-class destroyers together, they get surprisingly close to the size of the Colossus--and the UEF built all three when the only enemy they had was a loose band of pirates/terrorists using outdated fighters and small cruisers, while the GTVA could have been attacked by another Shivan invasion at any time, full of Shivan destroyers or even superdestroyers. The Solaris-class has got to be a logistical nightmare anywhere outside of Sol; it seems like it would flat-out run out of ammo in any kind of prolonged engagement, and good luck ferrying hundreds of Apoc torpedoes and thousands railgun slugs to such a ship every time it engages an enemy.
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The Anemoi, I think, might be worth keeping around alongside the Hemera, mainly because the Anemoi looks (both aesthetically and physically/size-wise) like it's capable of resupplying and repairing half a battlegroup by itself in a few days. The Hemera kind of seems to be more of a hybrid between logistics vessel and warship/frigate. Significantly less capable than the Anemoi in a logistics role, but far more capable in combat and much more defensible. The Hemera would excel in frontline actions, while the Anemoi would work its magic in the rear-lines/more secure areas, where its greater vulnerability to attack is less significant.
Also, I'm not sure if you're decided in terms of keeping or removing the forward four guns, but it is interesting to think of the Hemera as a modestly effective artillery ship for the GTVA--doesn't pack as much punch as a Narayana (not counting the Nara's powerful torps, which are something of a different kind of artillery in their own right), but can peck smaller ships to death or provide distant fire support against larger targets from a safe range. As far as damage output goes...dunno, maybe equivalent to a Karuna's mass drivers? Who knows, that can be tweaked easily enough down the line, I guess.
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Salty.
What are you doing.
Salty.
STAPH.
If you want to do BP discussion, please do it in the BP forum. This is a model feedback thread. kthksbai.
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Salty.
What are you doing.
Salty.
STAPH.
If you want to do BP discussion, please do it in the BP forum. This is a model feedback thread. kthksbai.
Staying on topic is overrated!
(everything is overrated!!)
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Cybertrance: If it gets included in BP, it's more likely to replace the Anemoi than anything else, I think. Looks far more like a GTVA ship than a UEF one anyway.
Hades: I said it before, but it looks really great.
not to mention I dont think the UEF has a position for a Logistics vessle, they even ***** about how stupid the GTVA is to deploy such large civilian ship into a combat zone, talking about the loss of the Collossus not teaching them that bigger is not always better
They're also complete hypocrites/morons for saying something like that, given how Sol would be a depopulated graveyard if it weren't for the Galatea, Bastion, etc. The Colossus, even if considered impractical, saved the entire GTVA twice over and almost singlehandedly crushed the NTF. It was certainly useful as a political/cultural/morale tool, with a 20-year, huge, joint Terran-Vasudan project that was crewed by 30,000 Terrans and Vasudans.
The statement was that bigger is not always better. Ultimately outside of the NTF rebellion, the Colossus did bugger all that couldn’t have been done as well by a intelligently deployed destroyer task force. Not only that but Command practically had a hissy fit over each time the ship was so much as scratched because it would take a massive amount of time to repair the damage. Then finally, when it's big moment to shine came and actually do what it was designed to do... the shivans out classed it again to a ridiculous degree. Not only that but in the BPverse even the GTVA admit that the strategy of super massive warships wont work vs the Shivans by not building any more ships of comparable or greater scale.
Oh, and the Wargods mocking the Tevs for building destroyer-sized freighters while in the middle of a bold, critical mission to neutralize/capture such a ship because it's giving them hell and giving the Tevs a huge logistical, tactical, and strategic advantage is just plain hilarious.
that mission actually emphasises the issue with the concept of massive scale lightly armed supply ships in combat zones because you indeed have a high value target that is inherently difficult to protect once located, and while the UEF struggle to locate them manually, given the force numbers displayed by the Shivans and their apparent ability to locate ships in space (eg the number of convoy escort missions that go belly up in all iterations of FS) they are a at best questionable solution to the GTVA's logistics needs
If you put the three Solaris-class destroyers together, they get surprisingly close to the size of the Colossus--and the UEF built all three when the only enemy they had was a loose band of pirates/terrorists using outdated fighters and small cruisers, while the GTVA could have been attacked by another Shivan invasion at any time, full of Shivan destroyers or even superdestroyers. The Solaris-class has got to be a logistical nightmare anywhere outside of Sol; it seems like it would flat-out run out of ammo in any kind of prolonged engagement, and good luck ferrying hundreds of Apoc torpedoes and thousands railgun slugs to such a ship every time it engages an enemy.
not this again...
Colossus = 6166 m
Solaris = 3496 m
Raynor = 3200 m
Titan = 2582 m
Orion = 2030 m
Solaris is 1.7 times the size of an Orion, the ship I assume is the Solaris' predecessor, which is not all that silly. The Colossus is again 1.7 times the size of a Solaris and 3 times the size of the Orion and no where near as well armed as a Solaris. Also can I draw your attention to the techroom for the Solaris which is entered into the Solaris wiki page. The tech room entry opens with...
Prior to the outbreak of the UEF-GTVA war, the Solaris class Destroyers were the most controversial pieces of military hardware in use by the Federation. They represented a massive investment of resources and manpower that, according to critics, was fundamentally unnecessary. Designed by an ad-hoc committee of the Federation's best engineering and tactical thinkers and built at Mars' Bradbury Fleet Yards, these enormous warships seemed like answers to a nonexistent problem.
So yes even the UEF called them a waste of time and resources, until the war broke out and as I have said previously, their lack of direct combat actions still leave them open to question.
The difference being that the Colossus was deployed in it's intended role as the GTVA's high profile shield vs the Shivans and it was found sorely lacking after only a few weeks at most. All three Solaris destroyers are still kicking and their large fighter wings are continuing to make an impact on the war 18 months.
and that is not to mention as a warship Solaris destroyers are designed for direct contact with the enemy and win or loose will probably acquit them very well. The Anemoi on the other hand would have been floating debris if the UEF were in a mind to shoot at it in ernest.
Finally when compared to their front line GTVA counterparts, they are not that big, less than 300 meters longer than a Raynor and 1000 longer than a Titan and the Solaris is built to do both jobs, something has to give and in this case it is physical dimensions.
All in all the Solaris is justifiable (after the fact), the Colossus was a good destroyer hunter but ultimately a joke as an answer to the problem of the Shivans. The Anemoi is just far too vulnerable for it's role, perhaps if had a reasonable defensive armament (it's hitpoints are not too shabby though), but as it is, if the UEF turn up wave the white flag, if the shivans turn up, pray your jump drive is charged and programmed.
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I don't have the values here with me at the moment, but I'd venture that with those lenght measurements to be realistic - Colossus with 6.2km length and Solaris with 3.5km, that actually means 5.5 times in volume and weight, with at least 3 times its surface.
And this is just inferred from one measure (lenght). I'm not adding the "legs" that the Colossus has and the Solaris does not.
One can easily argue that to put so many eggs in one basket was what mostly drove the GTVA into despair in its second shivan incursion war, while the problems in Sol had only to do with its investment in the first place.
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I just realised I missed a point.
...The Solaris-class has got to be a logistical nightmare anywhere outside of Sol; it seems like it would flat-out run out of ammo in any kind of prolonged engagement, and good luck ferrying hundreds of Apoc torpedoes and thousands railgun slugs to such a ship every time it engages an enemy.
Except in dire situations the Solaris destroyers have not left their home ports during the war, believe me, if their home port can't keep pace with the ships logistics demand then a mobile ship has no hope. Also my understanding is that these ships were never meant to leave their home system, they are defensive warships.
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With it being 3.5kms, one would imagine there's a lot of volume there for missiles and ammo?
3.5km is *a lot*.
If we "simplify" the Solaris to a tube of 0.3km radius and 3.5km length it's mostly a 1km3 volume.
A missile has what, 5m3, tops?
The ammunition problem is only "real" if the strategy never involved the Solaris to have thousands of missiles and so on in its inside at every moment.
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It's laughable that you can even try to say the Solaris' entire volume is filled with missiles.
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It isn't, for obvious reasons. The Solaris class isn't really built for long slugging matches, it's combat endurance is very low compared to GTVA ships (from an ammunition expenditure pov). Also, Apocalypse Torps are somewhat larger than that, they're 1.5*1.5*9.44 meters, or 22m^3, so they'll shoot themselves dry in a rather short time.
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12 launchers fires 4 torpedoes each every 20 seconds. That's 48 torpedoes per salvo, about 144 torpedoes fired in a minute plus a few seconds.
10 minutes of continued firing would be equal to about 30 salvos, that's 1440 torpedoes. That's probably enough to hypothetically kill off a good chunk the combined GTVA forces in Sol if most of these were to hit their intended targets (= doesn't warp out, see Hood@Aristeia).
Talk about missile spam ...
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Also don't the logistic class ships have to carry plasma material for the beams? I imagine that would take some volume, even if liquified, didn't is tay kilotons per salvo somewhere? (might be on the Sathanas, but still). if it is gas at all.
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The difference being that the Colossus was deployed in it's intended role as the GTVA's high profile shield vs the Shivans and it was found sorely lacking after only a few weeks at most. All three Solaris destroyers are still kicking and their large fighter wings are continuing to make an impact on the war 18 months.
Like most military hardware designed in peacetime, the Colossus was built to fight the last war. If the Second Incursion had been like the first: a Lucifer leading a bunch of Demons and lighter ships, the Colossus would have mopped the floor with them. For a while, it actually performed fairly well. It successfully destroyed what Command saw as this attack's Lucifer equivalent (Sath 1), and thus did exactly was built to do.
The problem is that the Second Incursion wasn't like the first. When the Shivans changed the playing field, the Colossus just couldn't cope. It wasn't a failure, it was just made obsolete.
The Anemoi is just far too vulnerable for it's role, perhaps if had a reasonable defensive armament (it's hitpoints are not too shabby though), but as it is, if the UEF turn up wave the white flag, if the shivans turn up, pray your jump drive is charged and programmed.
Keep in mind Steele knows who he's fighting. There was no reason to suspect the UEF could find the Agincourt. But knowing how unpredictable the Shivans are, I seriously doubt he'd have left it undefended if he was fighting them instead. Just look at where the Anemois are in AoA. Keeping the logistics ships with most of their battlegroup is probably standard doctrine.
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The Anemoi has exactly the amount of defenses it needs for its role. It's never going to be able to hold its own without escorts.
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Like most military hardware designed in peacetime, the Colossus was built to fight the last war. If the Second Incursion had been like the first: a Lucifer leading a bunch of Demons and lighter ships, the Colossus would have mopped the floor with them. For a while, it actually performed fairly well. It successfully destroyed what Command saw as this attack's Lucifer equivalent (Sath 1), and thus did exactly was built to do.
The problem is that the Second Incursion wasn't like the first. When the Shivans changed the playing field, the Colossus just couldn't cope. It wasn't a failure, it was just made obsolete.
Maybe, but if they had used all the material, crew and weapons to build 5 destroyers instead, they would have worked just as well for the Sathanas 1 and the NTF and been more usefull during the Capella battles.
With 5 destroyers you can either concentrate them in one location, giving you pretty much everything the Colossus can do (even more, since you can flank and surround the enemy, ect.) or you can split them up and send them to different locations if needed. On top of that, due to their smaller size, they'll also have better real- and subspace manouverbility.
The main benefit of the Colly was her being a symbol for unity, recovery from the great war and being able to overcome anything... untill the Shivans turned that completely around by blowing her up....
Also don't the logistic class ships have to carry plasma material for the beams? I imagine that would take some volume, even if liquified, didn't is tay kilotons per salvo somewhere? (might be on the Sathanas, but still). if it is gas at all.
Wasn't that talking about the force of the weapon rather than the actual weight of the particles it pours out?
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The Anemoi has exactly the amount of defenses it needs for its role. It's never going to be able to hold its own without escorts.
Ehhh, I really cannot help but wonder if adding at least a few more flaks and blobs wouldn't be too much to ask, it is used in enemy territory, only makes sense.
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Also don't the logistic class ships have to carry plasma material for the beams? I imagine that would take some volume, even if liquified, didn't is tay kilotons per salvo somewhere? (might be on the Sathanas, but still). if it is gas at all.
Wasn't that talking about the force of the weapon rather than the actual weight of the particles it pours out?
no, one of the tech entries states the beam is made of "kilotons of plasma." i can't recall what entry, or if it was even a BP entry (i think it was, but i'm not sure). considering a tempest does kilotons of damage, a beam better be a ****load more than that.
yeah, you can compress a gas to reduce the volume, but not infinitely. a kiloton cylinder of highly pressurized gas (or even liquid depending on what the plasma is) is still going to be ****ing huge. and the mass is still the same. a kiloton is a kiloton.
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It's the BFRed tech entry and the physics in it are pretty hilarious if you work out the yield.
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The Anemoi has exactly the amount of defenses it needs for its role. It's never going to be able to hold its own without escorts.
Ehhh, I really cannot help but wonder if adding at least a few more flaks and blobs wouldn't be too much to ask, it is used in enemy territory, only makes sense.
A couple of anti fighter beams would go a long way towards changing this from a 2.1km bullseye to something you would expect to see operated by a military in a combat zone.
if you want real world examples of how poorly armed the Anemoi is then
Fort Victoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Victoria_class_replenishment_oiler) UK replenishment ship
• 2 × 20 mm Phalanx CIWS
• 2 × 20 mm Oerlikon / BMARC KAA guns in GAM-B01 mounts
Cimarron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimarron_class_fleet_replenishment_oiler) US replenishment ship
2 x 20mm Vulcan Phalanx Mk 15 (CIWS)
Berlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_class_replenishment_ship) German replenishment ship
4 × MLG 27 mm autocannons
Stinger surface to air missile (MANPADS)
All of these weapons are ones which if they hit are expected to kill a anti-ship missile with a small number of rounds and kill a fighter with a short burst (exception to all with the stinger which iirc is a anti plane only weapon). To my mind FS2 anti fighter beams are the equivalent to Phalanx on modern day ships. the flak and blobs are useful suppressing an area and taking down bombs, but they are an annoyance at best in many situations, there is nothing like an anti fighter beam to take down a fighter or bomber fast and provide a protective envelope for it's escorting fighters. Sure the Anemoi will always be lightly armed for it's size but it operates in a very fluid battle space where the enemy can arrive unexpected and without warning and as such should be able to stall an assault by force for a few minutes at least.
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Pretty much every ship in the game could be improved by the addition of some anti-fighter beams. The Anemoi has nearly the same base HP as an Orion.
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Fort Victoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Victoria_class_replenishment_oiler) UK replenishment ship
• 2 × 20 mm Phalanx CIWS
• 2 × 20 mm Oerlikon / BMARC KAA guns in GAM-B01 mounts
Isn't the 20 mm Oerlikon a WW2 era weapon with extremely limited use vs modern military aircraft? I'm surprised to see it fitted on a modern ship.
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Depends more on the mount and tracking system, I'd say.
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and yet at nearly the same volume as an Orion, with 80% (?) of its hits it is armed with the same kinds of weapons seen on civilian freighters, heck even the Aten is tabled with 2 anti-fighter beams and that explodes if it's CO sneezes too hard.
thing is you cant even compare it to a freighter very well, not only is it bigger but a freighter is expected to arrive in system, dump/collect it's cargo and run as fast as it can back through the nearest safe node. the Anemoi's role on the other hand is to arrive in the system and stay there until the operation is complete or it is relieved by other logistics assets, even in the middle of a battle group it's potential exposure to combat is vastly greater and while it's hull strength reflects this, its defences just dont, especially given it's target value.
Fort Victoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Victoria_class_replenishment_oiler) UK replenishment ship
• 2 × 20 mm Phalanx CIWS
• 2 × 20 mm Oerlikon / BMARC KAA guns in GAM-B01 mounts
Isn't the 20 mm Oerlikon a WW2 era weapon with extremely limited use vs modern military aircraft? I'm surprised to see it fitted on a modern ship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon
at the end of the day it is just a cannon, what matters against fast moving objects is your targeting and tracking, though I bet even if it is hand operated it would make some nice hole in a Zodiac type craft.
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Maybe, but if they had used all the material, crew and weapons to build 5 destroyers instead, they would have worked just as well for the Sathanas 1 and the NTF and been more usefull during the Capella battles.
With 5 destroyers you can either concentrate them in one location, giving you pretty much everything the Colossus can do (even more, since you can flank and surround the enemy, ect.) or you can split them up and send them to different locations if needed. On top of that, due to their smaller size, they'll also have better real- and subspace manouverbility.
The main benefit of the Colly was her being a symbol for unity, recovery from the great war and being able to overcome anything... untill the Shivans turned that completely around by blowing her up....
That's pretty much exactly what the modern US military decided with regards to the F-22 Raptor vs. the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The cheaper, more versatile design ended up winning.
However, there is something to be said for size. The Colossus operates in a different weight class than an Orion. You could theoretically put heavier beams, more armor, more powerful engines, etc. on the ship simply because it is physically larger and is not operating under the same set of constraints. The Sathanas proves this fairly handily.
I am playing devils advocate here, I do agree that given the specifics of Freespace warfare, a ship like the Colossus is a waste of resources (Unless you are like the Shivans and have no observed limit to your resources). Subspace ambushes are too dangerous to risk building high value ships like the Colossus.
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It's laughable that you can even try to say the Solaris' entire volume is filled with missiles.
Using The_E's number, you'll quickly see how ridiculous your comment is.
A km^3 is a thousand million m^3. If we were to propose using the Solaris' "entire volume" with missiles, it could harbor 50 million missiles.
I have proposed no such thing. What I am trying to convey is that the Solaris is *pretty damn big* and that if the plot writers want the Solaris to be self-sustained at least in what comes to missiles, they can, without smashing common sense.
X3N0-Life-Form's calculations (1440 missiles per ten minutes) is still amazingly plausible, given the possibilities here. Even if only 0.1% of the Solaris' volume is dedicated to missiles, it still is able to harbor 50k.
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Well then, leaving aside the sheer stupidity of trying to apply arguments based on scale to FreeSpace, what if the writers just don't want it to be able to operate independently? You're clutching at straws to create an inconsistency.
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On top of that, due to their smaller size, they'll also have better real- and subspace manouverbility.
We have no information on the "subspace maneuverability" of the Colossus. For all we know, we may be comparing a super carrier to a short-ranged carrier, where bigger is better.
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Well, it is a general rule in BP-canon that the larger a ship is the lower its subspace mobility. Norbert's assumption was not unwarranted.
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and yet at nearly the same volume as an Orion, with 80% (?) of its hits it is armed with the same kinds of weapons seen on civilian freighters, heck even the Aten is tabled with 2 anti-fighter beams and that explodes if it's CO sneezes too hard.
thing is you cant even compare it to a freighter very well, not only is it bigger but a freighter is expected to arrive in system, dump/collect it's cargo and run as fast as it can back through the nearest safe node. the Anemoi's role on the other hand is to arrive in the system and stay there until the operation is complete or it is relieved by other logistics assets, even in the middle of a battle group it's potential exposure to combat is vastly greater and while it's hull strength reflects this, its defences just dont, especially given it's target value.
Indeed. To give an example, in a recent playthrough of The Plunder I did, the Agincourt's point defenses were so bad that they were literally a nonfactor when going straight for an engine-kill, by myself. I remember a less recent playthrough of that mission, where the Indus and Yangtze's gauss and mass driver cannons started firing on the Agincourt before it completed the surrender dialogue (even though its engines were already disabled). In a handful of seconds, the Agincourt's health plummeted below 50%. A random test I did a long while back showed that two Durga bombers could bring an Anemoi's hull down to half in around ten seconds, and outright dead in something like under 30. I don't think they even needed to use their torps. And, note, that its point defenses didn't even bother its attackers.
Point is, you can easily disable an Anemoi despite its escort, and against an enemy that is willing to treat cruisers and corvettes as expendable (eg Shivans), then it doesn't even matter if you have a strong escort--the Anemoi will die very quickly, and even against half a dozen wings of bombers the Anemoi's point defenses will just manage to--at best--help out a little bit at close range.
The GTM Hippocrates has better point defenses, and its a civilian medical frigate dating back to FS2, if not earlier. It's a huge, advanced military logistics ship. Why not have a bunch of missile launchers? It can use some of its own stock of missiles for self-defense if needed, and if it doesn't need them when the time comes to resupply allied craft/ships that heavily, just transfer the munitions. Torpedo launchers could work similarly, perhaps. At the very least, the thing should be bristling with blob turrets so that a dozen wings of expendable bombers can't outright kill the thing in spite of an escort because few of the torpedoes are even shot down (and Shivan heavy bombers laugh at your close-range token defense of a single flak gun). Lets the fighter screen focus more on killing the bombers/fighters and disarming beam turrets, and less on performing most warhead intercept for the ship itself. I mean, how hard could it be to stick a dozen Subach or Mekhu HL-7's around the hull for warhead intercept and light antifighter duty? The power draw for such a setup would be something a Herc I could handle...
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Well then, leaving aside the sheer stupidity of trying to apply arguments based on scale to FreeSpace, what if the writers just don't want it to be able to operate independently? You're clutching at straws to create an inconsistency.
What. Do you even bother to read what other people write?
Not only taking into consideration, you know, basic mathematics for the whole thing to make sense, I specifically said that *if* the writers want, *they can* make the Solaris a ship that has sufficient ammo for multiple engagements.
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A Solaris has as many missiles on board as the plot allows. We don't have definitive numbers, but they are limited.
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*snip*
Oh my god, this is ridiculous. The Anemoi is already so powerful it is literally magic. It is not going to get 'a dozen Subachs'. There is not a single ship in FreeSpace that would not be improved by 'a dozen Subachs', but we're not going to start slapping them on because constraints and flaws are more interesting than maximalism.
This is the line of thought that leads to ships covered in Morning Stars and Maxims.
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@SaltyWaffles
I think you are thinking it too far with the torp launchers as ultimately the ship is still a glorified freighter. the reason I suggested the anti fighter beams was because 1) I dont expect them to take significant additional room on a 2.1 km ship, especially if they are fitted in place of another turret, 2) they would provide the ship with a more rounded defensive screen against fighters and bombers better suiting it's role as a ship designed to operate in a combat theater for prolonged periods.
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So the Anemoi is underarmed and underarmored for her size.
So what? As we've seen in WiH, the GTVA knows this, and is taking steps to make sure that they won't be in the direct line of fire; steps that until a rather unlikely intelligence coup happened were perfectly adequate to the task of protecting the vessel.
If you're asking the question "How can we make the Anemoi function better when in direct combat?", you're already doing it wrong. None of the real-life navies thinks about their replenishment oilers this way, which is why these rather huge and really important ships never have more than a couple point defense weapons. Sure, you could cover them in guns, but that would be a misuse of space and manpower that is needed for other functions. It's literally like saying "Well, Ticonderoga-class cruisers are nice, but they're really missing 12" guns to be good ships".
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I like the Anemoi and the concept behind it quite a lot.
The fragmentation of capabilities and purposes into different classes of vessels is pretty well justified by the strategic and tactical necessities of each warship to be as efficient, light and snappy as it can be, given its own purpose. To that end, compromises are inevitable, and if the Anemoi is amazing to the GTVA in its huge freighter capabilities, maintenance, hospitals and so on, it will obviously lack in power and attack/defense capabilities.
This fragmentation is both the GTVA's strenght and weakness. By "strenght", obviously they learned not to place "all eggs in the same basket" and enter in a tactical fragmentation and modulation. If a Destroyer goes down the logistics are still intact, etc. It is a weakness because you do not have the sufficient resources to build up equal artillery for every ship (now that you are fragmenting the fleet), and so the logistics vessels become the "weakest link". But this should not be a problem since these logistic vessels are to be hidden in the vastness of space, and unless there's some remarkable cunning by the opponent, they are safe.
Also, it's these kinds of dynamics that make a plot interesting. It would be incredibly dull to have every ship like these to harbor ten fighterkillers just because "they can".
EDIT: While this is what I believe, a more apt point could be made that the WiH mission where we disable this ship and so on is "too easy", that with some fighterkillers that we needed to disable first it would become "better" and so on. But that's a whole different conversation, IMHO.
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I want the BP team to keep replacing ship models with new models that break balance so that they can spend all their time rebalancing the already released missions instead of making new missions.
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There's nothing that prevents you personally from replacing the Anemoi with the Hemera if you want to. It'll make Forced Entry and Aristeia a little easier, and The Plunder a little harder, but that's about it. This isn't adding heavy beam cannons or anything.
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Why not just make a Trebuchet#bomb?
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This fragmentation is both the GTVA's strenght and weakness. By "strenght", obviously they learned not to place "all eggs in the same basket" and enter in a tactical fragmentation and modulation.
And you think building a destroyer-scale freighter that houses almost all the logistics of a battlegroup in one single place is not putting all eggs in the same basket?
I think it's pretty much the opposite. They put the eggs in one basket, but try to hide the basket very well. But once discovered a battlegroup can be severely weakened by the loss of that single ship. Not exactly crippled, but it will hurt really bad.
It works good enough against the UEF, but I can't help but wonder if the Shivans might not turn this "strength" into a weakness, with their already mentioned uncanny ability to find enemy ships no matter how well hidden they are.
Unless the ships in BP carry just as many supplys as the Capella era ships had on board and the logistics vessels are there on top of that.
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TEI vessels have enough internal storage capacity to operate independently for normal patrol purposes. Anemois simply reduce the need for fixed home ports for these ships, thus enabling the GTVA to keep their vessels out in the field for longer.
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This fragmentation is both the GTVA's strenght and weakness. By "strenght", obviously they learned not to place "all eggs in the same basket" and enter in a tactical fragmentation and modulation.
And you think building a destroyer-scale freighter that houses almost all the logistics of a battlegroup in one single place is not putting all eggs in the same basket?
I think it's pretty much the opposite. They put the eggs in one basket, but try to hide the basket very well. But once discovered a battlegroup can be severely weakened by the loss of that single ship. Not exactly crippled, but it will hurt really bad.
There's that, which is a very good point, but I was referring to have, for instance, a Destroyer which doubles as a carrier, as a hospital facility, ammo freighter and so on and so on (hi Solaris). My point about having all the eggs in one place referred to this (Although your counter-point is spot on).
GTVA's strategy is more like a modular architecture of sorts, much more streamlined, making every ship more maneuverable, faster, smaller, more powerful and cheaper.
Running the risk of making a really bad analogy here (I am no programmer), it's like the difference between repeating the same code ad nauseam and having subroutines all over the place. If you "hit" the subroutines, all your program goes to hell (which is your point), but at the mean time you saved a lot of work, trouble and resources.
It works good enough against the UEF, but I can't help but wonder if the Shivans might not turn this "strength" into a weakness, with their already mentioned uncanny ability to find enemy ships no matter how well hidden they are.
Which is curious, since the Tev's new fleet was designed to counter Shivan tactics (and not UEF's). So it probably goes down to a choice they had to take: either not streamline and have fewer "carryall" ships with way less firepower (for the same resources), or a modular strategy where they can build more ships, each ship costing less, more maneuverable, more powerful (single purpose ships).
They simply chose the latter.
TEI vessels have enough internal storage capacity to operate independently for normal patrol purposes. Anemois simply reduce the need for fixed home ports for these ships, thus enabling the GTVA to keep their vessels out in the field for longer.
Or that. :nervous:
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Military organizations have a long and storied tradition of trial and error, not to mention outright fail. Expecting that every ship should be some epic masterclass is not realistic. There are going to be more than a few duds out there, actually having ships that are less than great at their role, or who's intended role proves irrelevant makes for a more realistic universe.
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Except in space you could make a super ship that has combat capabilities, factories, food growth facilities and fuel processing/storage, etc. because of the lack of the "weight" limit on the air or sea.
Granted, it makes it less interesting but it's not unrealistic!
Realistically, it's estimated we could one day build ships the size of the Moon if we distribute resources adequately.
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No weight limit? How do you figure that?
(You're wrong, btw. Greater Mass -> Bigger engines needed -> More fuel needed -> Diminishing returns regarding accel rate and maneuverability.)
The only things you don't have to care about in space are aerodynamics and hydrodynamics.
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What kind of fuel needs a ship powered by those meson reactors?
No joke intended, this is a honest question.
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the meson mass is fuel for the reactors, just as deuterium is for the reactors of FS2 and earlier era ships. also depending on how much mass is remaining after the reaction you might need a dedicated mass to eject out of the engines to propel the ship.
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Just had a brilliant idea! UEF ships with anti-matter warhead machine guns for propulsion!
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I suspect what they already have is more efficient. Remember that these ships weigh millions of tons.
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we need a sarcasm sign smiley.
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No joke here my good chap! Project Orion (nuclear propulsion) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion))
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Look at the freespace Lore. the reason why you didn't have the antimatter helios all the time is because even in 2370ies, antimatter is too damn expensive to produce, so unless a superdestroyer shows up, you're stuck with cyclops. Now think how much money you would need just to power one ship...
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Look at the freespace Lore. the reason why you didn't have the antimatter helios all the time is because even in 2370ies, antimatter is too damn expensive to produce, so unless a superdestroyer shows up, you're stuck with cyclops. Now think how much money you would need just to power one ship...
The UEF has loads of antimatter, though.
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The GTM-13 Helios is the product of an entire generation of high-energy physics research, based primarily at the GTVA particle accelerator complex near Antares. The most powerful warhead in the fleet's arsenal, the Helios generates a massive shockwave from the cataclysmic annihilation of matter and anti-matter, triggered upon impact with its target. Each bank of Helios warheads can fire only once every 30 seconds. The Helios is prohibitively expensive to produce, thus its deployment is severely restricted.
The bomb itself is expensive to produce
Intelligent tracking similar to GTA targeting system - prior to launch, communicates with ship computer, gathering data about enemy target types and whereabouts - slow, low maneuverability - antimatter warhead (500 tonne3 mass-to-energy conversion) - due to instability of antimatter, no more than 10 may be carried on board a GTA bomber at any given time, unless pilot is granted a special permit by an appropriate governing body.
The Tsunami has now become the standard Terran bomb used to take out large targets. It's short life requires that you get within 1500 meters of the target before sending it off, and since it needs a lock to be fired, it takes a brave pilot to fly straight enough for long enough to let one of these fly. A few Tsunami's will take out almost any ship, barring a destroyer. The antimatter warhead also washes over shields a little, so as long as it isn't too close to the center of the blast, a fighter or bomber has a good chance of surviving detonation.
There 250 tons of antimatter is weirdly "the standard Terran bomb."
EDIT: that's pretty supportive of Sol being the primary producer.
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I'm pretty sure antimatter has non-military uses as well, just like nuclear power and dynamite.
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wow, I didn't expect that one little post will initiate such a brainstorm xD. that was quite interesting.
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The final, worst case contingency for a third shivan incursion is mass exodus. With the firepower, adaptability, supplies and size of the Hemera, it could serve as a high end refugee transport. It could supplement freighter/transport/medi-frigate convoys with warship escorts in a fine manner by supplying, repairing, serving as a mini-carrier and absorbing a lot more punishment than something like an argo.
Just a thought.
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The final, worst case contingency for a third shivan incursion is mass exodus. With the firepower, adaptability, supplies and size of the Hemera, it could serve as a high end refugee transport. It could supplement freighter/transport/medi-frigate convoys with warship escorts in a fine manner by supplying, repairing, serving as a mini-carrier and absorbing a lot more punishment than something like an argo.
Just a thought.
:nod:
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The final, worst case contingency for a third shivan incursion is mass exodus. With the firepower, adaptability, supplies and size of the Hemera, it could serve as a high end refugee transport. It could supplement freighter/transport/medi-frigate convoys with warship escorts in a fine manner by supplying, repairing, serving as a mini-carrier and absorbing a lot more punishment than something like an argo.
Just a thought.
that just made me think on a tangent point, how do the capabilities of the GTVA logistics ships compare to the Sanctuary?
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Sanctuary would be the next level up. A GTL would be best used as part of a (rag-tag/migrant) fleet keeping ships from falling apart. Sanctuary is meant to do everything (fuel processing, mining, food production) by itself, forever alone.
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Where do the Gef Hephaestus-class vessels come in on that lise?
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Those are still in beta.
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The final, worst case contingency for a third shivan incursion is mass exodus.
Should we enter this into the list of possibilities of what Contingency MORPHEUS is?
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Wait... wasn't the Sanctuary a sleeper ship? MORPHEUS might be something like that, a fleet of sleeper Civilian ships...
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Would be a very odd strategy given what MORPHEUS is meant to fight.
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An overwhelming force?
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Ih, you know that Morpheus was sometimes refered to as the god of...passing away while sleeping?
Maybe they have a final solution(god I hate this word) for wasting the whole population while not damaging the infrastructure...
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Sanctuary would be the next level up. A GTL would be best used as part of a (rag-tag/migrant) fleet keeping ships from falling apart. Sanctuary is meant to do everything (fuel processing, mining, food production) by itself, forever alone.
Yeah, though the Sanctuary doesn't seem to be as capable at effective/efficient repairs for other warships, or for storing lots of munitions/replacement parts on the level of a battlegroup (though I guess swapping out the cryo-stasis sections for those functions would solve that problem).
So I guess that whereas the Sanctuary is fully self-sufficient (if less effective against craft than a single Aeolus, and hardly any anti-ship capability to speak of), destroyer-sized vessel, the Anemoi is not self-sufficient but far more capable at servicing an entire battlegroup at a rapid pace for an extended time period (but far from indefinitely, especially in prolonged intense action). One is a much better asset for war and shorter-but-intense operations while the other can maintain a slow jog for itself and a few smaller ships for decades.
An overwhelming force?
I got the impression that MORPHEUS is all about resisting the Shivans or Vishnans on a subspace/Nagari level, or countering a vulnerability in that area.
Remember, Steele's mindset/frequent thought in 'Ken' is "They sneak in through your dreams ... they can't get in if you shut them out" [approx.]; coupled with the unusual, year-long period of total silence from the Vishnans in Sol (with the Elders/UEF, as well as the Tevs), it seems like a Nagari-cancelling/jamming capability of some sort is in the works. Chances are that it would (in the near-future, at least) only work on a general, large scale (where it doesn't completely block all Nagari stuff, but severely curtails it and, in a sense, 'blockades' it in a given system.
And IIRC, Morpheus was the god of sleeping/dreams. I don't recall a specific mention about passing away in one's sleep.
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But what does in entail? "It's a nightmare you don't get to wake up from."
I get the feeling that the line "The Elders think we've crossed the threshold. For good this time.", the "second chance" Ken speaks of, and Contingency MORPHEUS are related. Either MORPHEUS caused the first two, or it's the GTVA Security Council's contingency should they reach a similar conclusion as the Elders (more likely).
We don't know much about what the GTVA knows about the Shivans, Vishnans, and Nagari, so it's difficult to speculate about what MORPHEUS is, but you just know big things are about to happen. What I am sure of is that it's directly related to the real reason the GTVA went to war with the UEF.
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Don't forget to add the "Something unspeakably terrible would occur within the next fifty years" from the Jester to that list.
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Ending plot twist:
The Vasudans and almost all of humanity will be exterminated by the Shivans except for the Sanctuary and a few more ships, they will flee to the corners of known space to hide in nebulae...
To be found by Samuel Bei The Second, who will take them to his universe...
After many failures the Vishnans finally piece it all together to get them to a universe where humanity can achieve it's true potential...
Then BP3 happens, no place to run to, no contingencies, final destination. :D It's Carl or nothing.
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Yeaaah, I've seen Groundhog day too many times by now.
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Hm, damn shame, the english Triviapedia doesn't mention the part about Morpheus being not only being the god of dreams, but the dieing in your sleep thing too.