Which i why the Medjai is currently fueling and servicing logistics to Tev ships in the Sol theater. Riiiiight.
Which i why the Medjai is currently fueling and servicing logistics to Tev ships in the Sol theater. Riiiiight.They were sneaking bombs onto all the Tev ships but the detonator was a piece of junk. They even followed the directions.
snipes would be proudWhich i why the Medjai is currently fueling and servicing logistics to Tev ships in the Sol theater. Riiiiight.They were sneaking bombs onto all the Tev ships but the detonator was a piece of junk. They even followed the directions.
Everyone knows that the Vasudans are behind the building of the Pyramids, when they were also leadered by an emperor.Oh god! :wakka:
Now, they are just pretending to help the Tevs in order to get their pyramids back.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/27253878.jpg)
It is clear the devs are hinting at a UEF-Vasudan Alliance after they ditch the GTA and they seal nodes to GTA space and build their own "Knossos" portal to recreate the Sol-Vasuda node link.
It is clear the devs are hinting at a UEF-Vasudan Alliance after they ditch the GTA and they seal nodes to GTA space and build their own "Knossos" portal to recreate the Sol-Vasuda node link.
Before, that might of been possible, but Steele probably ruined any chance of that when he framed the UEF. :(
Yeah, I don't see any way for the UEF to win by themselves. They just don't have enough firepower.FS1 Alpha 1 comes out of retirement and singlehandedly defeats the Tevs. FS2 Alpha 1 can't help, since he's stuck in Capella killing the supernova with a rubber band around his trigger.
In all seriousness, I'm not convinced the Vasudans were really fooled. It feels like they bought it too quickly--they probably have an agenda of their own, beyond helping the GTA or UEF.Well, we know Khonsu wants an end to the war, and I think he knows the GTA will be of greater help than the UEF against the Shivans and/or whatever "unspeakably terrible" thing is meant to occur sometime soon. Maybe, in the face of that, he just doesn't care.
the problem is the general UEF philosophy means that the public expects a reduced emphasis on the military in favour of civilian spending. the only reason the UEF is even in the fight at all at this point is because the GTVA bungled the first few months of the war giving the UEF time to build up and regroup. the Shivans on the other hand seem to hit critical mass in the space of a few days to 2 weeks tops, no where near enough time to go through the same level of buildup.
Heh, I still say the Jovians are the right way to go, minus the fact that Steele whooped them good.
Something we've over the course of the campaign is that Ubuntu doesn't seem to able to persist in a world with an enemy not amenable to diplomacy. Just look at the state of your comrades over the course of the campaign. They either break down because they can't reconcile the necessities of war with their philosophy (like Kassim), or they abandon their philosophy entirely (like Simms). Hell, it looks like even Calder's starting to see things from the GTVA's perspective, even if he'd never admit it.The UEF's peacefulness was a product of Sol's stability. The GTVA's concerns about it are largely unfounded, because it would not last long outside of Sol. This is because it runs completely against human nature. Some aspects of Ubuntu might spread to the rest of the Alliance, but they wouldn't become a bunch of pacifists like the Earthers. I say this because no peaceful philosophy, no matter how appealing, has ever managed to spread throughout the world, or even a single continent in real life, which makes the GTVA's worries about it spreading throughout an entire galaxy pretty ridiculous. It looks even dumber when you consider their borderline-paranoia of the Shivans, which would almost certainly prevent them from becoming pacifistic (fear will usually overcome love and understanding).
The UEF military is weak, simply because Ubuntu doesn't place much importance on it. Hence why 3-4 GTVA battlegroups are kicking the crap out of it. The problem isn't that the UEF can't produce good warships, it's that Ubuntu means they don't really want to.
After the GTVA wins the war, chances are they'll adopt the UEF economic model, and they'll probably end up looking more like the Jovians as a result. The entire war is meant to throw Ubuntu to the wayside, and the GTVA's reasons for wanting to do that have become abundantly clear.
The UEF's peacefulness was a product of Sol's stability. The GTVA's concerns about it are largely unfounded, because it would not last long outside of Sol.That's actually the very reason GTVA's concerns are valid. Ubuntu's ideology would spread into GTVA systems, but the carefully-built simulations that worked inside Sol would never work outside. The Tev pop, too much appealed by the Ubuntu ideology (however hard you try to explain them it wouldn't work), would revolt en masse against the GTVA, leading straight into economical, political and eventually military collapse. Confusion that would leave the human species wide open for a 3rd incursion with no hope of survival.
The UEF's peacefulness was a product of Sol's stability. The GTVA's concerns about it are largely unfounded, because it would not last long outside of Sol.That's actually the very reason GTVA's concerns are valid. Ubuntu's ideology would spread into GTVA systems, but the carefully-built simulations that worked inside Sol would never work outside. The Tev pop, too much appealed by the Ubuntu ideology (however hard you try to explain them it wouldn't work), would revolt en masse against the GTVA, leading straight into economical, political and eventually military collapse. Confusion that would leave the human species wide open for a 3rd incursion with no hope of survival.
Apollo: No, it probably couldn't spread throughout the GTVA. Hell, it hasn't even spread throughout Sol. However, what it could do is cause a massive ideological rift which would tear the GTVA apart, which just isn't a risk the Security Council can take. Ubuntu needs to be suppressed, at least for the immediate future.I guess that's possible, though I find it unlikely that a simple ideological difference could tear apart the GTVA.
MatthTheGeek's point is reinforced by iirc the Tev economy is still not doing very well so the fact that prior to the invasion the UEF economy was prospering makes it all the more attractive.
Hell, it looks like even Calder's starting to see things from the GTVA's perspective, even if he'd never admit it.Calder is former GTA. He's a soldier through and through, and as many Jovians has never been very Ubuntu, if at all. He doesn't see things from the GTVA perspective, he just reacts similarly because he has similar background. He is still a firm defender of the UEF and Sol, maybe one of the firmest, but I doubt he gives two ****s about the survival of Ubuntu.
If the GTVA is even remotely democratic (and considering that they're concerned about public opinion, they probably are), the population must be really scared of the Shivans. Otherwise, their leaders wouldn't spend so much on the military. As I said, widespread paranoia would prevent pacifism from taking hold. In any case, the GTVA already intends to adapt some of Ubuntu's positive features, which would also help integrate the UEF and the GTVA.1) The GTVA is mostly democratic in name. It is strongly hinted that the GTVA stayed in power through deniable assassinations (see Pegasus tech descr). The GTVA knows the Shivans will eventually return (Capella, then the AoA incident proved them right), and is strongly convinced that only an efficient fleet and strong contingencies can give a chance of survival to humanity/zodanity, and this is why they need to stay in power and maintain whatever control they can on the population.
If the GTVA is even remotely democratic (and considering that they're concerned about public opinion, they probably are), the population must be really scared of the Shivans. Otherwise, their leaders wouldn't spend so much on the military. As I said, widespread paranoia would prevent pacifism from taking hold. In any case, the GTVA already intends to adapt some of Ubuntu's positive features, which would also help integrate the UEF and the GTVA.1) The GTVA is mostly democratic in name. It is strongly hinted that the GTVA stayed in power through deniable assassinations (see Pegasus tech descr). The GTVA knows the Shivans will eventually return (Capella, then the AoA incident proved them right), and is strongly convinced that only an efficient fleet and strong contingencies can give a chance of survival to humanity/zodanity, and this is why they need to stay in power and maintain whatever control they can on the population.
The GTVA is concerned about public opinion because they fear another civil war at a scale that would make the NTF look like nosebleed. Not because of re-elections.
2) The Tev pop is growing tired of the constant vigilance and Shivan-driven paranoia enforced by the GTVA. Your average Tev citizen already has more than enough to worry about in his daily life between the war, the crumbling economy, the growing anti-zodanism and the overall aftermath of Capella (refugees and stuff). GTVA's best experts have estimated Ubuntu's appeal would be very strong among this population, and they had very good reasons to believe so.
3) Pacifism ? What has pacifism to do with Ubuntu ? Re-read dat FAQ.
The GTVA is mostly democratic in name. It is strongly hinted that the GTVA stayed in power through deniable assassinations (see Pegasus tech descr). The GTVA knows the Shivans will eventually return (Capella, then the AoA incident proved them right), and is strongly convinced that only an efficient fleet and strong contingencies can give a chance of survival to humanity/zodanity, and this is why they need to stay in power and maintain whatever control they can on the population.
3) I don't think that word is ever specifically used, but the GTVA's main argument against Ubuntu is that it's too pacifist to deal with the Shivans.
The prevailing stereotype amongst GTVA citizens is that the Ubuntu Party and the United Earth Federation as a whole are a gang of pampered pacifists raised in a socialist nursery state. This belief is inaccurate, and it fosters a sense of complacency towards the Federation which may undermine our war effort. This misapprehension directly contravenes GTVI's imperative to provide accurate, comprehensive strategic data.
The UEF's peacefulness was a product of Sol's stability. The GTVA's concerns about it are largely unfounded, because it would not last long outside of Sol.That's actually the very reason GTVA's concerns are valid. Ubuntu's ideology would spread into GTVA systems, but the carefully-built simulations that worked inside Sol would never work outside. The Tev pop, too much appealed by the Ubuntu ideology (however hard you try to explain them it wouldn't work), would revolt en masse against the GTVA, leading straight into economical, political and eventually military collapse. Confusion that would leave the human species wide open for a 3rd incursion with no hope of survival.
If it can't completely spread through one system how could it possibly spread through all the GTVA's systems?Apollo: No, it probably couldn't spread throughout the GTVA. Hell, it hasn't even spread throughout Sol. However, what it could do is cause a massive ideological rift which would tear the GTVA apart, which just isn't a risk the Security Council can take. Ubuntu needs to be suppressed, at least for the immediate future.I guess that's possible, though I find it unlikely that a simple ideological difference could tear apart the GTVA.MatthTheGeek's point is reinforced by iirc the Tev economy is still not doing very well so the fact that prior to the invasion the UEF economy was prospering makes it all the more attractive.
If the GTVA is even remotely democratic (and considering that they're concerned about public opinion, they probably are), the population must be really scared of the Shivans. Otherwise, their leaders wouldn't spend so much on the military. As I said, widespread paranoia would prevent pacifism from taking hold. In any case, the GTVA already intends to adapt some of Ubuntu's positive features, which would also help integrate the UEF and the GTVA.
3) I don't think that word is ever specifically used, but the GTVA's main argument against Ubuntu is that it's too pacifist to deal with the Shivans.
From the Ubuntu FAQ (http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/ubuntufaq.html)QuoteThe prevailing stereotype amongst GTVA citizens is that the Ubuntu Party and the United Earth Federation as a whole are a gang of pampered pacifists raised in a socialist nursery state. This belief is inaccurate, and it fosters a sense of complacency towards the Federation which may undermine our war effort. This misapprehension directly contravenes GTVI's imperative to provide accurate, comprehensive strategic data.
Definition of PACIFISMThe UEF doesn't entirely fit this description, but the GTVA keeps saying that they are unable to accept war as the only solution for the Shivans (which it obviously is); this isn't exactly the description of pacifism, but it's pretty close.
1
: opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
the issue is not that ubuntu will somehow magically rip the GTVA apart, the issue is that if the general public start taking even some aspects of Ubuntu onboard then the resulting pressure on government to shift from a military and defence focus to a civilian and social focus will reduce the GTVA's readiness for the next Shivan conflict, and remember to date these have been 30 years apart which is a long time in the mindset of a population which from what we have witnessed in the real world, 5 years is a long time to the general public.
the whole point of the war is to stop any influence of ubuntu from reaching the GTVA population. if the GTVA enters into an alliance with the UEF then ubuntu will remain whole and the inevitable tourism/immigration between the two will allow ubuntu to spread beyond Sol, worst case scenario for the GTVA.
If the GTVA and UEF form an alliance but block tourism/migration/interaction between ship crews then the GTVA public will want to know why they can't go back to Earth after so many promises.
it dosnt need to take over, just expose the population to a different way of thinking
I just realized the Shivan incursions seems to work like "The War on Terror."
Constant threat of the homeland from an Opposing Force (one in this case you can be sure will never be beaten) so defense is prioritized over the happiness of citizens who get more and more angry at the government which every day does more questionable things in the name of "security" such as starting a war with a non-hostile power and feeding propaganda about how it is necessary for protection from the real enemy.
it dosnt need to take over, just expose the population to a different way of thinking
So? The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that. Different isn't always bad.
EDIT: You know, this is starting to feel like a real life political discussion.Whenever I'm tempted to view the GTVA's behavior as an unlikely contrivance to drive the plot, I imagine Dick Cheney running the Security Council. Then everything seems realistic again. :p
EDIT: You know, this is starting to feel like a real life political discussion.try this one from the start, you get politics, psychology, psy ops, theology, economics, military tactics and a bunch of other stuff in there
I just realized the Shivan incursions seems to work like "The War on Terror."The fundamental difference is that a terrorist attack might kill a few thousand people, but the main damage is psychological. The Shivans are the opposite. The psychological damage is there, but it's a mere add-on to the incredible destruction they cause. Moreover, a terrorist attack happens, and it's over. The Shivans will not stop unless you completely prevent them from reaching you. Terrorism does not cause an apocalypse. The Shivans do.
Constant threat of the homeland from an Opposing Force (one in this case you can be sure will never be beaten) so defense is prioritized over the happiness of citizens who get more and more angry at the government which every day does more questionable things in the name of "security" such as starting a war with a non-hostile power and feeding propaganda about how it is necessary for protection from the real enemy.
So? The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that. Different isn't always bad.
EDIT: You know, this is starting to feel like a real life political discussion.try this one from the start, you get politics, psychology, psy ops, theology, economics, military tactics and a bunch of other stuff in there
I just realized the Shivan incursions seems to work like "The War on Terror."The fundamental difference is that a terrorist attack might kill a few thousand people, but the main damage is psychological. The Shivans are the opposite. The psychological damage is there, but it's a mere add-on to the incredible destruction they cause. Moreover, a terrorist attack happens, and it's over. The Shivans will not stop unless you completely prevent them from reaching you. Terrorism does not cause an apocalypse. The Shivans do.
Constant threat of the homeland from an Opposing Force (one in this case you can be sure will never be beaten) so defense is prioritized over the happiness of citizens who get more and more angry at the government which every day does more questionable things in the name of "security" such as starting a war with a non-hostile power and feeding propaganda about how it is necessary for protection from the real enemy.
Apollo's comparison to the modern US is somewhat flawed. The GTVA is best compared to Israel without Judaism to unify it, and without an enemy amenable to compromise or diplomacy. They trade liberty for security, but they're right to. A misstep could mean annihilation.
So? The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that. Different isn't always bad.
The GTVA's way does work. Not well, but it's more or less the only option. Ubuntu can't coexist with Shivans, and Terrans don't think like Vasudans, meaning their way can't be readily adopted. Most of the GTVA's problems can be traced back to economic difficulties, and the UEF economic model has nothing to do with Ubuntu, so can be adapted with no risk. If it wasn't for the post-Capella depression, I'd expect the GTVA would look a lot like the Jovian republic.
I expect that in the core GTVA systems (where the effects of the economic depression are less pronouced), Capella might have thrown the population even further behind the military, for precisely the reason headdie mentioned. On the frontier, people might think the GTVA is useless, but in the core, they probably look at it as their only hope.
Ubuntu is a program of secular, non-denominational, scientifically driven social, industrial, and political advancement. It is allied with both technological transhumanism and elements of post-Isolation philosophy and spirituality.
It is not a state-sponsored religion, a cult, or even an ideological/economic complex in the way that Communism was. Economically, it practices sophisticated neocapitalism rather than socialism, though it guarantees certain services to all citizens, including education.
The Ubuntu Council of Elders presents itself as mankind's first long-term steering committee, capable of setting imperatives for decades, centuries, or millennia to come.
I don't think you have the grounds to say the Solaris is tactically superior to the Raynor.
Would UEF forces be able to effectively supplement the GTVA outside of Sol?
Apollo: The UEF's economic model is based on educated leaders acting on information provided by complex simulations performed by ridiculously powerful supercomputers. Essentially, it's limited psychohistory. In many ways, it's a working control economy, and while it wouldn't work quite as well for the GTVA (on account of it being much bigger area wise, meaning more uncertainties), it would work without Ubuntu. On Mars, Ubuntu is present, but not as prevalent as on Earth. In the Jovian republic, however, it's not even close to dominant, and as a result, the Jovians probably resemble the GTVA more than they do Earth. Yet their economy works just as well.
Like Battuta said, you can't flat-out say the Solaris is better than the GTVA destroyers. What are you basing that statement on? That the Solaris can kill a Raynor in a 1v1 fight? Fine, but the Titan can kill a Solaris well outside of the Solaris' range, and can even do so at near point blank. The Raynor is more capable of dealing damage without its beams than the Solaris is without its torpedoes (and both can and have been jammed). GTVA ships all have more endurance than their UEF counterparts, without exception. GTVA ships are much, much better suited to the tasks the GTVA designed them to perform.
In addition, ruining the UEF navy isn't that big of a deal. There isn't really place for UEF ships in GTVA fleet doctrine, on account of their lower endurance, which stems from the fact that they were designed for operations in a system where resupply is never more than a 5 minute jump away. I suggest you have a look through this thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=81738.0) for a more indepth discussion of this.
Ubuntu is partly a philosophy, but it's also a political and economic system, as the Security Council's dossier says. Therefore, adopting its economic policies would be adopting part of Ubuntu.If you want to call every part of the UEF's government Ubuntu, fine, the economic model is part of Ubuntu, but it's a part that one that in no way relies on the cultural aspects and doesn't threaten GTVA stability at all. Evidence: Ubuntu isn't an idea that's really taken hold in the Jovian Republic, but they happily use the economic model.
The Solaris's Gattler Turrets collectively deal several thousand more points of DPS than the Raynor's Terpulse.A Gattler Turret deals 112.5 DPS (15dmg, 1 shot every .1s, 30 shots per burst, 1s between bursts). The Solaris has 12 of them. A TerPulse deals 455 DPS. The Raynor has 7 turrets and it can still use its TerSlashBlues.
I can say the Solaris is better than the Hecate. You're correct in that I can't say the Solaris is better than the Raynor, but that's because I don't have access the Blueplanet's fluff rules. In the tables, the Solaris is clearly superior.
The Titan can beat the Solaris in a long-range engagement; it may or may not be able to in a point-blank engagement, depending on its positon (at some angles, the Titan will only be able to use two of its forward beams instead of all three). On the other hand, the Solaris can beat the Titan with minimal damage if it attacks it from the sides, while a Raynor would deal serious damage in a broadside engagement.
At long-range, GTVA destroyers are better, but at close-range, the Solaris can do a lot more damage.
I hadn't considered that. Still, its possible that their endurance could be increased, and even if it can't I don't think the GTVA has the moral justification to kill that many people who are just trying to defend themselves (It's war, I know, but I don't think the GTVA should ever have declared war on Sol).
the GTVA keeps saying that they are unable to accept war as the only solution for the Shivans (which it obviously is);1) Plz2quote for the GTVA ever saying the UEF is unable to accept war as a solution to the Shivans. The fact they built a huge fleet of frigates, as well as three destroyers and a reserve of fleet bombers that has always felt utterly unnecessary for them, proves otherwise.
While Ubuntu would probably spread beyond Sol, it wouldn't be able to take over the entire GTVA.Could you PLEASE read the FAQ instead of arguing about stuff you don't know about ?
The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that.Proof that it isn't working ? Last time I checked, the GTVA's way successfully repelled two Shivan invasions and ensured the survival of humanity until now. If that is 'not working', I don't know what is.
When you think about it, this is pretty stupid, since were the Shivans to deploy their entire fleet (40+ Sathanas juggernauts) there's nothing the GTVA could possibly do, short of collapsing jump nodes.That's exactly the main GTVA contingency. Collapsing nodes. Scorched earth policy. And if that fails, mass exodus.
They trade liberty for security, but they're right to.I'd rather say they have their reasons to, that make sense from their point of view with the data they have available. 'Right' is a little too absolute for my tastes, let's keep this thread objective please :)
I don't think the GTVA has the moral justification to kill that many people who are just trying to defend themselves (It's war, I know, but I don't think the GTVA should ever have declared war on Sol).Please now, when the GTVA has to choose between the moral high ground and the survival of humanity (in their point of view, with the data they have available), it is obvious which one they're going to choose.
I'd actually somewhat agree with him here. Ubuntu hasn't even taken over all of Sol. I keep on repeating this, but the Jovians have repeatedly been stated as being somewhat resistant to Ubuntu's cultural side. The danger is from the ideological split that would almost certainly occur were it to spread into the politically fragile GTVA. They'd be looking at yet another large-scale rebellion, which they just can't handle ATM. Collapse would follow, leaving the pacifists in power.While Ubuntu would probably spread beyond Sol, it wouldn't be able to take over the entire GTVA.Could you PLEASE read the FAQ instead of arguing about stuff you don't know about ?
I'd rather say they have their reasons to, that make sense from their point of view with the data they have available. 'Right' is a little too absolute for my tastes, let's keep this thread objective please :)Point taken.
Ubuntu is partly a philosophy, but it's also a political and economic system, as the Security Council's dossier says. Therefore, adopting its economic policies would be adopting part of Ubuntu.If you want to call every part of the UEF's government Ubuntu, fine, the economic model is part of Ubuntu, but it's a part that one that in no way relies on the cultural aspects and doesn't threaten GTVA stability at all. Evidence: Ubuntu isn't an idea that's really taken hold in the Jovian Republic, but they happily use the economic model.
QuoteThe Solaris's Gattler Turrets collectively deal several thousand more points of DPS than the Raynor's Terpulse.A Gattler Turret deals 112.5 DPS (15dmg, 1 shot every .1s, 30 shots per burst, 1s between bursts). The Solaris has 12 of them. A TerPulse deals 455 DPS. The Raynor has 7 turrets and it can still use its TerSlashBlues.
I invite you to try a Raynor vs. Solaris battle in a beam/torpedo jammed environment, broadside to broadside. Tilt the Solaris if you want, since it has more Gattlers on top. Having done many runs of this myself, I can tell you that the Raynor wins by a huge margin.
Note: The TerPulse doesn't have the Huge flag because it needs to be able to target fighters. This should not be taken to mean it isn't capable of killing capships. For the purposes of this test, you should add it.
Everyone please forgive this argument about tables.
[/quote]QuoteI hadn't considered that. Still, its possible that their endurance could be increased, and even if it can't I don't think the GTVA has the moral justification to kill that many people who are just trying to defend themselves (It's war, I know, but I don't think the GTVA should ever have declared war on Sol).
WiH puts a huge amount of emphasis on moral ambiguity. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong. It's why you have a large amount of GTVA supporters among the fanbase. The GTVA had their reasons to declare war. They're good ones. Perhaps it wasn't morally right, but when the continued existence of humanity is at risk, morality becomes trivial. Survival is more important.
the GTVA keeps saying that they are unable to accept war as the only solution for the Shivans (which it obviously is);1) Plz2quote for the GTVA ever saying the UEF is unable to accept war as a solution to the Shivans. The fact they built a huge fleet of frigates, as well as three destroyers and a reserve of fleet bombers that has always felt utterly unnecessary for them, proves otherwise.
2) Where has it ever been said in the BP lore that war was obviously the only solution to the Shivans ? *cough*sekretProject*cough*, *cough*contingencyMorpheus*cough*
While Ubuntu would probably spread beyond Sol, it wouldn't be able to take over the entire GTVA.Could you PLEASE read the FAQ instead of arguing about stuff you don't know about ?
The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that.Proof that it isn't working ? Last time I checked, the GTVA's way successfully repelled two Shivan invasions and ensured the survival of humanity until now. If that is 'not working', I don't know what is.
When you think about it, this is pretty stupid, since were the Shivans to deploy their entire fleet (40+ Sathanas juggernauts) there's nothing the GTVA could possibly do, short of collapsing jump nodes.That's exactly the main GTVA contingency. Collapsing nodes. Scorched earth policy. And if that fails, mass exodus.
You would be silly to think the GTVA expects to win a war against the Shivans with brute force alone. They have multiple contingencies to enact in order to nullify the threat before it gets out of control, and they need a powerful enough fleet to enact these contingencies, not to take down the Shivan head-on.
It's a gamble, but it's the only solution the GTVA knows of. Do you have a better solution to propose, that wouldn't involve vague feelings from a random Nagari'd pilot ? When we're talking about the survival of humanity, the GTVA wants hard facts, which is pretty understandable.
They trade liberty for security, but they're right to.I'd rather say they have their reasons to, that make sense from their point of view with the data they have available. 'Right' is a little too absolute for my tastes, let's keep this thread objective please :)I don't think the GTVA has the moral justification to kill that many people who are just trying to defend themselves (It's war, I know, but I don't think the GTVA should ever have declared war on Sol).Please now, when the GTVA has to choose between the moral high ground and the survival of humanity (in their point of view, with the data they have available), it is obvious which one they're going to choose.
I'm still not convinced that Ubuntu poses any serious threat to the stability of the GTVA. If anything, the GTVA's war on Sol is probably damaging its stability.
I think I was wrong about the Gattler's DPS (I was thinking in terms of burst damage). Still, 30X15 is 450, and 450/3 is 150, not 112.5. 150 X 12 is 1,800, and 455 X 7 is 3,185, so I guess the Raynor's TerPulse are more damaging. Still, the Gattler Turrets have a longer range (4,000 as opposed to 2,400), are more accurate (better for destroying subsystems), and they have the Huge flag, which means they won't be distracted by fighters.My calculation: 15X30=450. 450/3, 150. However, there's 1 second downtime between bursts, so the time between start of each burst is 4s, so it's actually 450/4, which is 112.5.
In a beam/torpedo jammed environment, the Raynor will win only because its TerSlashBlue will destroy the Solaris's weapon subsystem. If the Solaris intentionally destroys that turret (which is what any smart admiral would do) it will win.No, it won't. Add Huge flag to TerPulse, remove TerSlahBlue, and Raynor still wins. TerPulse just plain beats Gattler as an anti-ship weapon.
And none of this changes the fact that, at short-to-medium range without any ECM, the Solaris will destroy the Raynor, usually fairly easily. Since the Shivans don't use any ECM, the Solaris's torpedoes would not be jammed in a fight with them.Yes, it does. And the Titan destroys the Solaris if it's front-to-broadside. But like we said before, this isn't what happens in war. And we haven't seen the Raynor operating at peak yet.
The GTVA believes they have good reasons for the war, but really their leaders are so terrified of the Shivans that they're making stupid decisions. They will likely win their war with the UEF, but probably at signficant cost. The Feds are going to upgrade their Sancti and possibly their Karunas, which, if not a game-changer, will certainly increase the GTVA's warship casualties. There's also the unavoidable reality of those 3 Solaris destroyers, which at medium-range can match or beat anything the GTVA has with the exception of the Atreus and possibly the Carthage. They already almost lost the Hood to the Toutatis, and next time they might not be so lucky.I'm getting really sick of saying this:
In any case, their fear of Ubuntu is ridiculous. If its cultural aspects can't even take over one solar system, they could not possibly take over the entire GTVA.
The danger is from the ideological split that would almost certainly occur were it to spread into the politically fragile GTVA. They'd be looking at yet another large-scale rebellion, which they just can't handle ATM. Collapse would follow, leaving the pacifists in power.
I can't quote those exact words, but that's basically the GTVA's entire concern: that Ubuntu can't handle the reality of the Shivans, with whom communication seems impossible. In theory, that may be true, but in practice the UEF's destroyers, huge fleet of frigates, and reserve of bombers shows how dumb that concern is.Compare the size of the 2 militaries. The entire UEF military is involved. 3-4 GTVA battlegroups are involved. The UEF is losing, and the GTVA has been pulling their punches to avoid damage to local infrastructure. There is no way in hell they could even come close to handling a Shivan attack.
It's not working because their economy is a train wreck, their people are repressed, and they're so terrified of the Shivans that they're invading a friendly power simply to prevent their ideas from reaching the GTVA's citizens. Oh, and they still don't have a solution for the Sathanas.Their economy is a train wreck because they got one of their major systems wiped off the map and have been devoting a huge amount of resources to the Sol Gate.
Well, first of all, they need a way to deal with Sathanas juggernauts. I would suggest building a few superdestroyers, but that's probably too expensive. An alternative would be to make a destroyer-sized vessel without a fighterbay, so that it could carry much heavier beam weaponry than a regular destroyer. That ship would be significantly less flexible, but it would offer some of the firepower of a superdestroyer without the huge cost. A fleet of these would be able to effectively counter juggernauts.Superdestroyers are Sathanas bait. See what happened to the Colossus. 3 Raynors > 1 Colossus in nearly every possible way.
They should also make peace with the UEF, although it may be too late at this point (the Security Council thinks that losing the war would cause a much larger one within the GTVA). An alliance could possibly give them access the Sol's shipyards, and while the UEF ships currently have poor endurance, that problem could probably be fixed and if they did it would give their military a significant boost.
The problem is that destroying the UEF isn't neccesary for the survival of humanity.It is for the GTVA since, like I said, the GTVA can't survive an ideological rift ATM.
QuoteI think I was wrong about the Gattler's DPS (I was thinking in terms of burst damage). Still, 30X15 is 450, and 450/3 is 150, not 112.5. 150 X 12 is 1,800, and 455 X 7 is 3,185, so I guess the Raynor's TerPulse are more damaging. Still, the Gattler Turrets have a longer range (4,000 as opposed to 2,400), are more accurate (better for destroying subsystems), and they have the Huge flag, which means they won't be distracted by fighters.My calculation: 15X30=450. 450/3, 150. However, there's 1 second downtime between bursts, so the time between start of each burst is 4s, so it's actually 450/4, which is 112.5.
QuoteIn a beam/torpedo jammed environment, the Raynor will win only because its TerSlashBlue will destroy the Solaris's weapon subsystem. If the Solaris intentionally destroys that turret (which is what any smart admiral would do) it will win.
No, it won't. Add Huge flag to TerPulse, remove TerSlahBlue, and Raynor still wins. TerPulse just plain beats Gattler as an anti-ship weapon.
QuoteAnd none of this changes the fact that, at short-to-medium range without any ECM, the Solaris will destroy the Raynor, usually fairly easily. Since the Shivans don't use any ECM, the Solaris's torpedoes would not be jammed in a fight with them.Yes, it does. And the Titan destroys the Solaris if it's front-to-broadside. But like we said before, this isn't what happens in war. And we haven't seen the Raynor operating at peak yet.
Against the Shivans, a Solaris would operate effectively at first. Then it would run out of torpedoes. Resupply might not be readily available, especially considering how the Shivans wage war. Then you're left with an expensive supercarrier with no effective weapons. Ravana bait.
If they're willing to start a war over something like that, they're not pacifists. Anyway, if the GTVA's citizens are even slightly scared of the Shivans (and I'm almost certain they are) no huge change would appear in their thinking, because like I said, the form of Ubuntu the GTVA is scared of has only managed to take over Earth and it goes too far against human nature to control any other places under normal circumstances. Any ideological rift would be fairly small and containable.QuoteThe GTVA believes they have good reasons for the war, but really their leaders are so terrified of the Shivans that they're making stupid decisions. They will likely win their war with the UEF, but probably at signficant cost. The Feds are going to upgrade their Sancti and possibly their Karunas, which, if not a game-changer, will certainly increase the GTVA's warship casualties. There's also the unavoidable reality of those 3 Solaris destroyers, which at medium-range can match or beat anything the GTVA has with the exception of the Atreus and possibly the Carthage. They already almost lost the Hood to the Toutatis, and next time they might not be so lucky.I'm getting really sick of saying this:
In any case, their fear of Ubuntu is ridiculous. If its cultural aspects can't even take over one solar system, they could not possibly take over the entire GTVA.The danger is from the ideological split that would almost certainly occur were it to spread into the politically fragile GTVA. They'd be looking at yet another large-scale rebellion, which they just can't handle ATM. Collapse would follow, leaving the pacifists in power.
QuoteI can't quote those exact words, but that's basically the GTVA's entire concern: that Ubuntu can't handle the reality of the Shivans, with whom communication seems impossible. In theory, that may be true, but in practice the UEF's destroyers, huge fleet of frigates, and reserve of bombers shows how dumb that concern is.Compare the size of the 2 militaries. The entire UEF military is involved. 3-4 GTVA battlegroups are involved. The UEF is losing, and the GTVA has been pulling their punches to avoid damage to local infrastructure. There is no way in hell they could even come close to handling a Shivan attack.
Quote2: That sounds like it confirms the GTVA's fears, but, like I said, that kind of pacifism is limited to Earth and would never take hold in the full GTVA.Their economy is a train wreck because they got one of their major systems wiped off the map and have been devoting a huge amount of resources to the Sol Gate.
It's not working because their economy is a train wreck, their people are repressed, and they're so terrified of the Shivans that they're invading a friendly power simply to prevent their ideas from reaching the GTVA's citizens. Oh, and they still don't have a solution for the Sathanas.
Also, they do have a solution to the Sathanas: Chimera/Bellerophon/Titan hunter-killer groups. Mass SSM deployment. Bombers knocking out BFReds. Look at how the 14th took down the Sathanas in AoA with no casualties.
QuoteWell, first of all, they need a way to deal with Sathanas juggernauts. I would suggest building a few superdestroyers, but that's probably too expensive. An alternative would be to make a destroyer-sized vessel without a fighterbay, so that it could carry much heavier beam weaponry than a regular destroyer. That ship would be significantly less flexible, but it would offer some of the firepower of a superdestroyer without the huge cost. A fleet of these would be able to effectively counter juggernauts.Superdestroyers are Sathanas bait. See what happened to the Colossus. 3 Raynors > 1 Colossus in nearly every possible way.
They should also make peace with the UEF, although it may be too late at this point (the Security Council thinks that losing the war would cause a much larger one within the GTVA). An alliance could possibly give them access the Sol's shipyards, and while the UEF ships currently have poor endurance, that problem could probably be fixed and if they did it would give their military a significant boost.
And what makes you think the UEF enduance problem could be easily fixed? It isn't simple to completely refit a ship that way. Building more Chimeras, Bellerophons, and Diomedes would be a much, much better use of shipyards than retrofitting ships that aren't as effective to start with and would only lose effectiveness in an endurance-boosting refit.
QuoteThe problem is that destroying the UEF isn't neccesary for the survival of humanity.It is for the GTVA since, like I said, the GTVA can't survive an ideological rift ATM.
so has salty made apollo his apprentice or something?:lol:
I just tested it, and the Solaris still wins. In any case, the TerPulse lacks the huge flag, and adding it would go against canon. You can't prove a point by changing the tables.The TerPulse doesn't have the Huge flag because it needs to be able to target fighters, which Huge weapons can't do. It's an engine limitation. This is a prime example of when tables don't reflect actual performance.
Don't the GTVA's warships use plasma for their beams and pulse cannons? Anyway, FS ships always carry more ordnance than is physically possible for them to hold, so we really have no idea how long it would take for the Solaris to run out of torpedoes. And, even if it did, it wouldn't be that much worse off than the Hecate. It's Gattler Turrets collectively deal less sustained damage than the Hecate's beams, but they're much more accurate than those TerSlash, and the Solaris has far more armor, a larger hangar, and better turret placement than the Hecate. It would hardly be useless.1) The Hecate isn't reliant on ammunition for its beams or the pulse cannons that have likely been fitted to many of them. 2) No, we don't know exactly how long it would take for a Solaris to run out of ammo. What we do know is that compared to GTVA ships, it wouldn't take long at all. This is a well established fact. This is why I've suggested that the Solaris could be useful as a fighter base and a rapid-response shock jumper, but not much else. As a line carrier to replace the Hecate, not likely. To replace the TEI destroyers, no chance whatsoever.
If they're willing to start a war over something like that, they're not pacifists. Anyway, if the GTVA's citizens are even slightly scared of the Shivans (and I'm almost certain they are) no huge change would appear in their thinking, because like I said, the form of Ubuntu the GTVA is scared of has only managed to take over Earth and it goes too far against human nature to control any other places under normal circumstances. Any ideological rift would be fairly small and containable.The GTVA Security Council disagrees. Given that they have more info than just the Ubuntu FAQ, and therefore more info than you or me, I'm inclined to agree with their assessment. Statements by the team back this up.
The UEF is losing, partly because their Sancti aren't in wartime configuration, but mostly because Byrne and the Elders won't fight more aggressively. They actually have enough raw firepower to control the system, and if First Fleet (who are from Earth, the only place that Ubuntu has fully taken hold) would act more like Calder and Netreba's fleets, they might actually win.Very, very debatable. The GTVA has more firepower in system than the UEF does, and leadership that's very good at anticipating UEF reactions. The UEF could certainly put up a better fight, but would they win? Unknown. Probably not.
The Colossus's greatest fault was that it was built on the assumption that it would never face another warship of comparable or superior strength. I guarantee you, if the GTVA were to build another juggernaut or superdestroyer they would not make that mistake. A supercapital's destruction would deal a massive blow to the GTVA's military, but a supercapital would also give them a ship that was nigh-invulnerable to most other warships.
But I didn't say they should build a supercap. I said they should build a destroyer-sized warship that trades its fighterbay for massive weaponry and armor. This seems like a good investment to me.
Because if the GTVA could retrofit their old TV-War era warships like the Orion with beam weaponry and flak cannons, why couldn't they increase the UEF ships' endurance? Compared to the huge retrofits that took place between FS1 and FS2, that would be relatively minor.
I still don't think they'd have any large ideological rift. Maybe a small one, but not anything sufficent to tear the GTVA apart.See answer above.
I still don't think they'd have any large ideological rift. Maybe a small one, but not anything sufficent to tear the GTVA apart.
I didn't read all of that, because it's a quote chain and I hate those, but I did notice that you assumed that whether or not a weapon carries a flag is canon or not.
I highly doubt that the $Huge flag exists in canon, if only because otherwise it makes no sense why engineers wouldn't just build it into whatever gun they felt like.
I'm being sarcastic, but the point is that tables don't really mean much aside from a vague set of guidelines that the team will use as they see fit.
I just tested it, and the Solaris still wins. In any case, the TerPulse lacks the huge flag, and adding it would go against canon. You can't prove a point by changing the tables.The TerPulse doesn't have the Huge flag because it needs to be able to target fighters, which Huge weapons can't do. It's an engine limitation. This is a prime example of when tables don't reflect actual performance.
QuoteDon't the GTVA's warships use plasma for their beams and pulse cannons? Anyway, FS ships always carry more ordnance than is physically possible for them to hold, so we really have no idea how long it would take for the Solaris to run out of torpedoes. And, even if it did, it wouldn't be that much worse off than the Hecate. It's Gattler Turrets collectively deal less sustained damage than the Hecate's beams, but they're much more accurate than those TerSlash, and the Solaris has far more armor, a larger hangar, and better turret placement than the Hecate. It would hardly be useless.1) The Hecate isn't reliant on ammunition for its beams or the pulse cannons that have likely been fitted to many of the newer ships. 2) No, we don't know exactly how long it would take for a Solaris to run out of ammo. What we do know is that compared to GTVA ships, it wouldn't take long at all. This is a well established fact. This is why I've suggested that the Solaris could be useful as a fighter base and a rapid-response shock jumper. As a line carrier to replace the Hecate, it has no chance.
QuoteIf they're willing to start a war over something like that, they're not pacifists. Anyway, if the GTVA's citizens are even slightly scared of the Shivans (and I'm almost certain they are) no huge change would appear in their thinking, because like I said, the form of Ubuntu the GTVA is scared of has only managed to take over Earth and it goes too far against human nature to control any other places under normal circumstances. Any ideological rift would be fairly small and containable.The GTVA Security Council disagrees. Given that they have more info than just the Ubuntu FAQ, and therefore more info than you or me, I'm inclined to agree with their assessment. Statements by the team back this up.
QuoteThe UEF is losing, partly because their Sancti aren't in wartime configuration, but mostly because Byrne and the Elders won't fight more aggressively. They actually have enough raw firepower to control the system, and if First Fleet (who are from Earth, the only place that Ubuntu has fully taken hold) would act more like Calder and Netreba's fleets, they might actually win.Very, very debatable. The GTVA has more firepower in system than the UEF does, and leadership that's very good at anticipating UEF reactions. They could certainly put up a better fight, but would they win? Unknown.
QuoteThe Colossus's greatest fault was that it was built on the assumption that it would never face another warship of comparable or superior strength. I guarantee you, if the GTVA were to build another juggernaut or superdestroyer they would not make that mistake. A supercapital's destruction would deal a massive blow to the GTVA's military, but a supercapital would also give them a ship that was nigh-invulnerable to most other warships.
But I didn't say they should build a supercap. I said they should build a destroyer-sized warship that trades its fighterbay for massive weaponry and armor. This seems like a good investment to me.
The Colossus was built to fight a Lucifer class enemy. It was designed well enough that it successfully handled something much stronger (Sathanas 1). Its problem was that it was one ship, which has a number of downsides compared to many smaller ones. 1) you're putting a huge amount of resources into a ship freakishly vulnerable to Shivan shock jumps. 2) a superdestroyer can only be in one place at once, a group of destroyers can split up if the situation calls for it. 3) bigger ships have less maneuverability, both in realspace and in subspace, and so can't redeploy as quickly. 4) 1 ship is easier to kill than a group of smaller ones.
The Raynor was built because of the lessons learned from the Colossus. Command decided that having a larger amount of highly advanced destroyers was better than one or two juggernauts.
A significant part of the Raynor's offensive capability, especially when facing a Sathanas, is its bomber wings, which go in and destroy the enemy's beam cannons. Removing that in favor of more armor to fight a ship which destroyed the Colossus in 20 seconds is like saying you should remove a tank's rangefinder to add a layer of tinfoil to its armor. Not even a Vishnan Sacred Keeper can survive a Sathanas shock jump.
QuoteBecause if the GTVA could retrofit their old TV-War era warships like the Orion with beam weaponry and flak cannons, why couldn't they increase the UEF ships' endurance? Compared to the huge retrofits that took place between FS1 and FS2, that would be relatively minor.
The Orions and Fenrises were retrofitted ships with beam weapons specifically designed for compatibility with those platforms. This is why the BGreen is worse than the BVas, and why blue beams don't work on even FS2 era ships. They're most certainly not huge retrofits. What you want to do is change, say, the Karuna from a design made specifically for operations in a system where resupply is very close, to a light patrol carrier for a navy that operates in areas where resupply might not come for weeks at a time, especially during an encounter with Shivans. To be very clear: A UEF battlegroup would not have survived AoA.
To do what you want to do with a Karuna, you'd need to change weapons so it would fit it the GTVA's existing infrastructure. Well, unless you're advocating outfitting every supply depot in GTVA space with ammunitions and spare parts for the Karuna's current guns. You'd basically be turning it into a completely different ship. This refit would take a very long stay in a shipyard, which could instead be used to build ships that are both more effective and already fit neatly into the GTVA's fleet doctrine (like the Diomedes). It quite simply isn't worth the time.
QuoteI still don't think they'd have any large ideological rift. Maybe a small one, but not anything sufficent to tear the GTVA apart.See answer above.
I still don't think they'd have any large ideological rift. Maybe a small one, but not anything sufficent to tear the GTVA apart.
All the mega quote stacks are totally unreadable so I'll just reply to this:
We saw the GTVA torn apart by a man who offered the promise of a Neo-Terra. Why don't you think the promise of real Terra would be enough?
Yes, exactly, it would deliver that promise - destroying the GTVA. Even if it's conducted peacefully, mass demographic flight from the periphery of human space into Sol would catastrophically destabilize both the GTVA and the UEF.
Or so their projections fear.
The Ouster is a Gef weapon.
Well, this is what one faction within the universe believes. It doesn't matter whether they're 'objectively correct' or not - what matters is that their beliefs, the information available to them, drive their policy decisions.
The Ouster will see use in R2. I get the sense a lot of R2 material got patched in to the R1 tables in some update.
But are they correct?
Yeah, there are a whole bunch of unused weapons, like the (IIRC) Eos#Steele, Hydra, and Gauss Cannon#AA.
so uh is anyone going to tell apollo about contingency MORPHEUS or will i have to do it
The Solaris could replace the Hecate because it has comparable effectiveness after it runs out of Apocalypses. Before then, it will be far more capable against enemy warships.No, a Hecate is, generally speaking, more effective than a torpedoless Solaris . 1 BGreen and 4 TerSlash are more effective than 12 Gattlers (which require ammo too, you know). This doesn't even consider that many Hecates have probably had their big turret guns replaced by pulse weapons. No examples, but TerPulse doesn't have the power grid problems blue beams have, and can be retrofitted on some older ships (Battuta, I'd really appreciate it if you could confirm or deny this bit).
Also, the Colossus was only able to destroy Sathanas 1 because the former overdrove its beam cannons and the latter's were destroyed. A Colossus has absolutely no chance of defeating a Sathanas under normal circumstances.Define "normal circumstances". "Sit in front of each other and shoot" isn't "normal circumstances" either.
Most of the GTVA's destroyers in Sol are Hecates, which are terrible against warships at any angle except the front. The Imperieuse is powerful, but very vulnerable to flanking maneuvers. The only really scary things they have are the Atreus, the Carthage, and Serkr Team. Their Diomedes corvettes are also very dangerous, but the GTVA tends to deploy them in a manner that gets them killed at a far greater rate than any of their other corvettes.I'm going to even bother arguing this point, because it isn't the way the war happened. By the end of WiH, the GTVA both outnumbers and outguns the remaining UEF forces (including 1st Fleet), they don't have crumbling morale, and aren't close to complete logistical collapse. If the secret project can't change the playing field somehow, GTVA victory is absolutely certain.
The UEF also has numerically superior forces, so they have the firepower to retake Sol. After they forced the GTVA out, they could simply blockade the Delta Serpentis jump node with a Solaris and a few frigates, preferably positioned in a manner that would allow them to flank incoming warships.
It is certainly worth pointing out that the GTVA may have reasons to go to war beyond those revealed so far. You might even find a few hints if you look!"Did we do the right thing? We couldn't let them go forward with it, not once we knew. We will not be tools. But...was it right?"
Can I just point out wrt beam and pulse weapons needing ammo as well that all they need is some homogeneous matter to heat into plasma; whilst details are obviously vague, a simple tank of compressed gas would probably suffice. Obviously it's a lot easier to store and replenish that than industrially-manufactured torpedoes and bullets which have to be stored in some sort of space-inefficient feed system.Apollo logic: You don't have a direct quote from the team, so this isn't true. :p
If that logic isn't enough for you, then I don't see the purpose of arguing with you further.
Quote
The Solaris could replace the Hecate because it has comparable effectiveness after it runs out of Apocalypses. Before then, it will be far more capable against enemy warships.
No, a Hecate is, generally speaking, more effective than a torpedoless Solaris . 1 BGreen and 4 TerSlash are more effective than 12 Gattlers (which require ammo too, you know). This doesn't even consider that many Hecates have probably had their big turret guns replaced by pulse weapons. No examples, but TerPulse doesn't have the power grid problems blue beams have, and can be retrofitted on some older ships (Battuta, I'd really appreciate it if you could confirm or deny this bit).
I just ran a test where I replaced all of a Fenris's laser turrets with (unmodded) TerPulse and removed its torpedo launcher, and it was a able to destroy a Deimos. So, the Big Ship flag does allow a weapon to destroy capships.
One of the scary things the GTVA has is the Deimos. That is a very mean ship for the same reason Starcraft marines are mean units.
-when
-key-pressed
-S
-send-message
-GTCv Deimos
-high
-ah yeah
-sabotage-subsystem
-GTCv Deimos
-hull
-10
-set-ai-class
-GTCv Deimos
-BALLS OF STEELE
In all seriousness though, the most likely answer is that a Deimos is very effective against both air (fighters) and ground (cap ships). 4 TerSlash, Piranha launchers, flak, and AA beams make the Deimos a really useful vessel, plus it also has blobs.
One of the scary things the GTVA has is the Deimos. That is a very mean ship for the same reason Starcraft marines are mean units.
Code: [Select]-when
-key-pressed
-S
-send-message
-GTCv Deimos
-high
-ah yeah
-sabotage-subsystem
-GTCv Deimos
-hull
-10
-set-ai-class
-GTCv Deimos
-BALLS OF STEELE
As you said, the Solaris was not designed for extended operations; it was designed for operations in Sol, where resupply is only one jump away. That said, the Solaris's endurance could likely be improved with a retrofit, which would be much cheaper than building a whole new destroyer. A possible solution would be to replace some of its torpedo launchers with beam cannons (remember, this is if the UEF and GTVA were allies). If the Solaris's reactor could support them (and I think it could, seeing as the much older Orion was equipped with 6 of them), this would give it the anti-subsystem power of torpedoes without the same inefficiency.But why bother? Refitting the Orions was worth doing because the GTVA didn't have other ships that could do their job. The GTVA of today doesn't need Solarises. Even if they could be refitted to fill in for Hecates (I still maintain they can't), they have Titans, which are a much more feasible replacement for the Hecate than Solarises, and fit in with current fleet doctrine better. Moreover, blue beams require meson reactors and power grids designed for them, which Solarises don't have. So they'd be using the same beams as the Hecate. Yay. Really worth the refit time. And the refit isn't just adding beam emitters to the hull. You'd have to make space, either by removing armor, ammo bins, weapons, or fighter bay space. Then you'd have to make sure the ships can get resupplied when they need to, meaning your supply depots need even more types of munitions in stock. This whole thing is a logistical nightmare.
Deimos can stim? D:Beam overload! I'd call replacing TerSlash with BGreen one hell of a stim.
I'm still not convinced that Ubuntu poses any serious threat to the stability of the GTVA. If anything, the GTVA's war on Sol is probably damaging its stability.The GTVA is convinced of the threat and has very serious studies from some of humanity's best minds to back it up. That's what matters to them.
Since the Shivans don't use any ECM, the Solaris's torpedoes would not be jammed in a fight with them.Uuuuuuh, quote plz ? How do you know the Shivans don't ECM ?
Oh, and they still don't have a solution for the Sathanas.*cough*Serkr Team*cough*
I guess that makes sense. Still, there are a few things I think they should do differently.Probably because you don't have all the data, and expert analysis, they have.
Well, first of all, they need a way to deal with Sathanas juggernauts. I would suggest building a few superdestroyers, but that's probably too expensive. An alternative would be to make a destroyer-sized vessel without a fighterbay, so that it could carry much heavier beam weaponry than a regular destroyer. That ship would be significantly less flexible, but it would offer some of the firepower of a superdestroyer without the huge cost. A fleet of these would be able to effectively counter juggernauts.Are you trying to say the GTVA should try to build a fleet to match the Shivans in firepower ? That's obviously impossible (Dante, anyone ?).
They should also make peace with the UEF, although it may be too late at this point (the Security Council thinks that losing the war would cause a much larger one within the GTVA). An alliance could possibly give them access the Sol's shipyards, and while the UEF ships currently have poor endurance, that problem could probably be fixed and if they did it would give their military a significant boost.
The problem is that destroying the UEF isn't neccesary for the survival of humanity.Again, keep the absolutes at door please. The GTVA has data you don't have (notice all the [REDACTED] everywhere ?), they have analysists with an expertise none of us have, and they have tons of simulations and hard data to back them up. You can't judge their actions and their choices with only a partial view of what's actually going on. The GTVA is not stupid, all their choices in BP have made sense with the data they have.
I guarantee you, if the GTVA were to build another juggernaut or superdestroyer they would not make that mistake.Oh, I didn't know you were the one in charge of GTVA strategical decisions. The more you know !
a supercapital would also give them a ship that was nigh-invulnerable to most other warships.Wut. There is very little the GTVA can do against the raw firepower of Shivan anti-capital ships weaponry. The best they could do would probably be a ship that could resist a couple of BFRed salvoes before breaking up. It's a much better strategy to have multiple corvette-sized ships that can much more easily be deployed on Shivans' weak points and not be a huge loss if destroyed.
I thought it was a reference to how many Deimos corvettes the GTVA has, although you've raised aThe Deimos is very numerous and, as seen in Delenda Est, can overcharge their beams. So both the numbers and the stimpack part are accounted for ;)goodbetter point about its versatility.
You know, that would be really funny if one of Steele's schemes ruined his war effort. That might actually be the only thing that could save the UEF.
Deimos can stim? D:Beam overload! I'd call replacing TerSlash with BGreen one hell of a stim.
Superdestroyers (which I still say the GTVA shouldn't build) are prohibitively expensive, but they offer overwhelming firepower-not so much against other supercapitals, but against destroyers, corvettes, and cruisers--remember that supercaps are rarely deployed (the Shivans also rarely deploy supercaps, even though they have like 40 of them), which contributes to their effectiveness--no single ship, short of another supercap, can stop them. The 14th Battlegroup only destroyed that Sathanas because they all attacked it at once, which will not always be possible.
By "normal circumstances", I mean the Sathanas and the Colossus attacking each other at full strength without any friendly warship support. In that scenario, the Colossus has absolutely no chance of survival, unless it jumps out.
You know, that would be really funny if one of Steele's schemes ruined his war effort. That might actually be the only thing that could save the UEF.
Or...Vishnans/Shivans show up.
But the UEF will really win the war when Byrne busts out his special project, the Pirate Colossus Fleet led by FRED and supported by the FREDayeen, with Alpha 1 spearheading the counterattack. It will be GLORIOUS.
About the Colossus/Sath engagement:) Not quite. Keep in mind that a vast majority of a Sath's firepower is directed forward. A single LRed is its only other armament, and its field of fire is somewhat limited. So, if the Colossus engages the Sathanas from behind, it's a whole different story--and I think it's fair to say that the Colossus' fighter/bomber complement seems to be larger than the Sath's. With overdriven beams, the Colossus outputs something like 150-170K damage every 35 seconds or so (based on the scenario of four beams being able to maintain fire at once, with the rest unable to get a firing angle).
This means that ships like the Imperieuse are at a serious disadvantage when attacked from behind, which gives less powerful or less attack-oriented ships a fighting chance to take out larger/more powerful ships when deployed ideally. This also factors into the above dynamic--if it's easier to have a ship lying in reserve to precision-jump a recently-deployed target from behind than it is to have ships in the field maneuver into an ideal firing angle at newcomers, then it's better to have two good ships than one great ship under a number of circumstances, which is partly why destroyers benefit greatly from having a large carrier capacity (relatively speaking); it gives them much-needed flexibility and adaptability.
About the 14th BG vs Sath:) Not at all; the Temeraire (sp?) and her escorts showing up just made the victory decisive and much quicker. After the Orestes' strike craft took out the Sath's forward beams, the Orestes was free to pound away at the juggernaut with a good deal of firepower. Granted, the Sath might have had the time to jump away eventually, but it would do so having taken heavy damage and losing all four of its main beams, leaving it very vulnerable to a follow-up attack by the Orestes.
As for the Ubuntu philosophy being dangerous:
Remember that the Terran GTVA citizens are not happy. Ever since Capella was lost, they have been in a very bad economic situation, which probably means a lot of unemployment and very little beyond the bare necessities in live and all the while they see their Vasudan neighbors prosper. The only thing that kept the Terrans together and prevented mass riots all over the place was the goal of reuniting with Earth and that everything will be better once that happens.
Now enter the Ubuntu: The people affiliated with it (wether true believers or just allies like the Jovians) are very prosperous, healthy and well fed. Unemployment, if it exists at all, is very small. Their economy rivals the entire Terran part of the GTVA in a single system. For the downtrodden, poor fellows outside of Sol this must seem like paradise in comparison to their own place.
That is pretty much the picture of how it is, though with their information controll, the majority of GTVA citizens are propably unaware of it.
The average citizen will not think "Hey let's adopt the economical parts of Ubuntu and forget the rest", they will just think "Let's be part of it all the way". Now conside those not turned to the UEF. They will think that the 'new converts' are soft, short sighted idiots who traded their best chance for survival for a bit of luxury. In such a situation conflic is almost inevitable.
And with the Terran GTVAs economy already being on the brink of collapse, such internal conflict might very well be the final nail in the coffin sparking off widespread rioting and maybe even outright civil war.
Of course it's theoretically possible that this can be avoided, but the damage in case it does happen is just too catastrophic to wait and see, and thus the GTVA high command had to counteract the possibility somehow. They chose to counteract it by taking Ubuntu out of the picture and due to the unfortunate events at the end of AoA forced them into a prolonged war.
Remember that the GTVA didn't want that war. They wanted a quick and clean solution (well... clean from a strategic view... morally still ambiguous, but a lot less than the actual war), but between what happened to the 14th BG and it's vice admiral (Ad. Bei's 2nd in command... who's name I forgot) messing up, that was no longer an option.
I know from AoA that the Shivans haven't developed ECM abilitiesNo, you don't. You know from AoA that the Shivans weren't using ECM. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
No, you don't. You know from AoA that the Shivans weren't using ECM. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I love how this discussion of uber-ships actually features the phrase "a supercapital on one side can actually allow them to instantly win a single battle" and completely and totally ignores the part of AoA where this is proven completely and totally false.
The Orestes and battlegroup absolutely obliterate a Sathanas while taking no losses above fighter level. Supercapitals are liabilities that must be shepherded unceasingly lest they find themselves in a position to be out-maneuvered and destroyed with impunity. The GTVA learned this lesson with the Colossus.
errrr no, it gives rise to possibility but it would be an assumption and there is a phrase very suitable here, "Assumption is the mother of all ****ups" and with the shivans that goes doubleNo, you don't. You know from AoA that the Shivans weren't using ECM. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Actually, you are somewhat wrong in there. Absence of evidence is an evidence of absence. Many times, not sufficient evidence, but still. Just ask any Bayesian. And that was all I could ever disagree with you for all the words you shared.
errrr no, it gives rise to possibility but it would be an assumption and there is a phrase very suitable here, "Assumption is the mother of all ****ups" and with the shivans that goes doubleNo, you don't. You know from AoA that the Shivans weren't using ECM. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Actually, you are somewhat wrong in there. Absence of evidence is an evidence of absence. Many times, not sufficient evidence, but still. Just ask any Bayesian. And that was all I could ever disagree with you for all the words you shared.
Solaris/Hecate: take a look at the size of the Raynor/Titan TerPulse turrets. They're huge. The Hecate has turrets big enough, the Solaris most certainly doesn't. There isn't enough physical space on the ship to fit TerPulse, and making some would add even more time and effort to the refit. Mounting BGreens would also be tricky because it requires you to add a large amount of heavy-duty power conduits for those beams, so you couldn't have many. Weapons, even those that look small from outside, have a huge amount of internal components. They're like icebergs; what you see is only a small part. You just don't seem to get how extensive this refit would need to be. You're turning it into a whole new ship. Build more corvettes instead. They're a better use of those shipyards.
The Raynor has one or two fairly small TerPulse turrets
and the Solaris has many big Gattler Turrets and Point-Defense Turrets. Replacing a few Apocalypse launchers with BGreens (or, possibly, MjolnirBeam#Home) would allow it to mount beam cannons
Yeah, the Shivans might have ECM. Although, considering that the alternate-universe Shivans had the same technology (somehow) of their retail counterparts, I find this unlikely. Of course, the GTVA also used very little (if any) ECM in retail (unless AWACS counts as ECM), so that doesn't neccesarily prove that the Shivans don't have ECM. ECM would, however, be an entirely new strategy for the species that has rarely ever used anything other than purely offensive tactics. But it doesn't really matter, since the GTVA's beams can also be jammed with ECM, and we've seen that happen much more frequently than the UEF's torpedoes have been jammed, which suggests that the UEF is better at ECM (and guarding against it) than the GTVA.
In BP, all warships - in FS1, FS2, and the BP campaigns - use ECM constantly, to varying degrees of effect. ECM is part of the calculation of AI and armor class.
If you read the weapon tech descriptions as far back as FS1, you will find extremely complex electronics at work in the targeting of even fairly basic weapons. The BP fluff accounts for this level of behind-the-scenes sophistication.
I won't argue with you about your own mod, so I just have one question: could the Solaris be refitted in the way I describe?
While beam jamming is ECM, not all ECM is beam jamming. You saw the Shivans using electronic warfare during their first appearances in FS1.
I won't argue with you about your own mod, so I just have one question: could the Solaris be refitted in the way I describe?
I'm not sure anyone has tried yet.
Similarly, shock jumping a destroyer is much easier than shock jumping a supercapital. Every single flaw that applies to a supercapital, with the exception of extreme cost, also applys to destroyers, and usually to a greater extent.What? In what way is shock jumping a destroyer and its battlegroup easier than shock jumping a single big superdestroyer? This makes no sense.
But it doesn't really matter, since the GTVA's beams can also be jammed with ECM, and we've seen that happen much more frequently than the UEF's torpedoes have been jammed, which suggests that the UEF is better at ECM (and guarding against it) than the GTVA.No, it suggests that the GTVA doesn't deploy torpedo jamming very much because they tend to use their AWACS in more offensive roles (jamming comms and vectoring SSMs). There's one place in the campaign where an AWACS shows up and torpedo jamming would be useful. That's the GTA J.E. Hoover in Aristeia. And big surprise, it's jamming.
The Hecate can at some angles fire with both of its bottom TerSlash, but it can only hit with one of them to the sides. The Solaris can hit with several Apocalypse torpedoes and Gattler Turrets at almost any angle.And it can run out of ammo a lot quicker too.
I know from AoA that the Shivans haven't developed ECM abilities.Proof ?
No, you don't. You know from AoA that the Shivans weren't using ECM.Not even that. It's not because it is not explicitly said that they didn't. Hell as far as we know it's perfectly possible Shivans were using ECM in the Great War and Capella in BP canon. Don't assume Command has to explicitly tell you everything that's going on.
If you read the weapon tech descriptions as far back as FS1, you will find extremely complex electronics at work in the targeting of even fairly basic weapons. The BP fluff accounts for this level of behind-the-scenes sophistication.What he said.
Now, it's possible that they might have by the time they attack the GTVA again, but I doubt they will. It completely goes against their previous tacticsThe Shivans have proven to have very changing, actually entirely unpredictable tactics. If you remember correctly, it's even the reason GTVA experts believe someone like Steele would fail horribly against the Shivans.
I'm not suggesting that the GTVA could match the Shivans' overwhelming firepower. That said, a warship like this would be useful because it would be a relatively cheap method of obtaining massive firepower, which is what the GTVA needs to deal with Sathanas juggernauts. They already have the ability to do so, but this would enhance that ability significantly, as this kind of warship would be cheap enough to mass-produce.If the GTVA was able to 'mass-produce' destroyers they wouldn't need the Sol industry in the first place. They've already have trouble replacing most of their Capella-era ships with new-gen ships. And if you want relatively cheap with massive firepower, you're going to aim for corvettes like the Chimera and the Bellerophon, which also are much more subspace-agile than destroyers, won't be a crippling loss if destroyed, and are perfectly able to engage, damage and eventually destroy juggernaught-class targets.
Seriously, I understand you like the Solaris, but it isn't anywhere near the pinnacle destroyer design. It has significant flaws that make it incompatible with GTVA line fleet doctrine. This is a fact. Accept it.Yes. The critical part here is "incompatible with GTVA fleet doctrine". The GTVA has better use of its resources for building tons of new ships with Sol's industry than trying to retrofit the Solarises. Much like the UEF scrapped the old Orions, the Tevs are likely to scrap the Solarises. Remember also that from a political point of view, it would be better for them to remove from civilian sight all previous symbols of the UEF after their victory.
Would three Bellerophons have been able to do that? They might have destroyed the Keeper, but not as quickly and they could easily have been destroyed too.Wait what.
Similarly, shock jumping a destroyer is much easier than shock jumping a supercapital.Wrong. The smaller the ship, the better the subspace manoeuvrability. A destroyer would have much more chance to crash-jump the **** out if shock jumped than a supercap would.
You mean when they had stealth?
The "average citizen" would not be fully or even mostly transformed by Ubuntu. This is because in order for a society to fully embrace Ubuntu, it would have to exist in a very special set of circumstances, and its citizens might even need to be conditioned from an early age to accept it (not sure about that part, though). In any case, the situation you described (some citizens adopting all aspects of Ubuntu and others getting really angry at them and possibly attacking them for that) would not happen, because even if lots of people tried to fully adopt Ubuntu, most of them would be unable to, as that would require a huge change in their personality. Look at real-life religions to see what I mean--many religious people follow their religion in name but not so much in practice (I'm not bashing religion, there are some that do. :nervous:). I know Ubuntu isn't a religion, but it requires a similarly huge change in personality to fully adopt it.
The Mjolnir is still a very modern beam cannon, better than many (all?) blue beams. That it isn't mounted on any GTVA ships, even the modern ones, should tell you a lot about how hard that is to do. If new TEI ships can't do it, the Solaris can't handle it.
The critical part here is "incompatible with GTVA fleet doctrine". The GTVA has better use of its resources for building tons of new ships with Sol's industry than trying to retrofit the Solarises. Much like the UEF scrapped the old Orions, the Tevs are likely to scrap the Solarises. Remember also that from a political point of view, it would be better for them to remove from civilian sight all previous symbols of the UEF after their victory.
What? In what way is shock jumping a destroyer and its battlegroup easier than shock jumping a single big superdestroyer? This makes no sense.
If the GTVA was able to 'mass-produce' destroyers they wouldn't need the Sol industry in the first place. They've already have trouble replacing most of their Capella-era ships with new-gen ships. And if you want relatively cheap with massive firepower, you're going to aim for corvettes like the Chimera and the Bellerophon, which also are much more subspace-agile than destroyers, won't be a crippling loss if destroyed, and are perfectly able to engage, damage and eventually destroy juggernaught-class targets.
That it isn't mounted on any GTVA ships, even the modern ones, should tell you a lot about how hard that is to do. If new TEI ships can't do it, the Solaris can't handle it.
Incompatable with GTVA fleet doctrine? It is right now, but what about after a refit?What we keep on telling you, and what you keep ignoring, is that a refit that would make it compatible is too extensive to be worth the time and opportunity cost. (opportunity cost, if you're not aware, is the opportunities you miss by pursuing a given course of action. In this case, what could be built with the shipyards and materials instead.)
Who said anything about the destroyer's battlegroup? In what way is shock jumping a single superdestroyer easier than shock jumping a single destroyer? True, a superdestroyer takes longer to charge its jump drives, but it also has a much greater chance of fighting its ambushers off. A Sathanas would be able to single-handedly take down a superdestroyer, but the Sathanas could also single-handedly take down several destroyers at once, considering that its primary cannons have almost no recharge time and they can one-shot any destroyer in BP, unless you count the Keeper, which is somewhere between a destroyer and a juggernaut in terms of weaponry and armor.Maybe because a superdestroyer would probably cost as much and require as much time for construction as a standard destroyer and its battlegroup? The Colossus took 20 years to build and the Vasudans were doing around half of the work.
Also, why wouldn't a superdestroyer have its own battlegroup? Sure, a superdestroyer would slow its escort down some, but it would also give them far, far more firepower. The ideal role for a superdestroyer is to be used as a carrier in the same way a destroyer is, and then to occasionally be used for devastating shock jumps on multiple warships at once.
Ubuntu:Think of Germany before and during WW2. Only a small minority actually were extremists bent on annihilating the jews. What the actual masses really wanted was the "tausendjährige Reich". A place where they threw off the shakles of the verseille (spelling?) treaty, where they could live in prosperity and where once again in controll of their own fate, not at the mercy of the countries who won the first worldwar.
Bosch started a civil war through anti-Vasudanism as much as by promising a new Earth. Now, the Terrans and Vasudans in the GTVA are currently getting along badly, but there are two crucial differences: One, the GTVA and the UEF can actually give Earth back to the people, and two: the Terran branch of the GTVA (and certainly the UEF) don't have any offical dislike of Vasudans. Nothing about the Sol Gate project is designed to intentionally kill Vasudans, unlike the NTF rebellion.
I'm still not convinced that Ubuntu will somehow destroy the GTVA. You could argue that adopting Ubuntu's economic model would cause this kind of rift, but that's what the GTVA is planning to do anyway, and if it works like they think it will and goes a long way towards fixing the economy most everyone would be happy with it. There will not be many people who are angry that the GTVA isn't in a depression anymore. Also consider that fixing the economy will make the situation less volatile by making people less angry.We are not talking about a cataclysm that would annihilate the GTVA here... not directly anyway.
So, people will not be split between those who completely reject Ubuntu and those who completely accept it. It will be split between people who do accept its spiritual aspects and those who don't. And, even those who do will not be fully transformed by it.
Well that's why you'd put it on duty guarding developed, but isolated and unstable systems: Polaris and Epsilon Pegasi were able to support the NTF rebellion, so they must have significant manufacturing and infrastructure. Indeed it seems like the best thing to do with the surviving UEF fleet would be policing, since the integration of Sol with the rest of the GTVA would be unlikely to go entirely peacefully.Wouldn't that be rather inefficient?
Sure, supplying UEF ships means maybe churning out less fighters, but it also means that the GTVA ships that would have been patrolling the system are now freed.And using UEF ships for that means spending resources and crew that would be better used for building and crewing new GTVA ships to replace them. Which is much more advantageous in the long term.
Well I wouldn't confuse crewmen with building construction workers. Just a FYI.If you reread my sentence, I said you'd need the resources for building and the crewmen to crew, not the other way around !
Except you're still going to have to police your own systems either way, so why not use the existing ships that are designed for that purpose rather than tying up warships?Err, since when are UEF ships designed to police GTVA systems ? Note it is also likely most UEF warships aren't even equipped with inter-system jump drives, drastically reducing their deployment reach.
Well I wouldn't confuse crewmen with building construction workers. Just a FYI.If you reread my sentence, I said you'd need the resources for building and the crewmen to crew, not the other way around !
It sounds like you are all trying very, very hard to find reasons for the GTVA keep UEF warships operational even though they have absolutely no need and no interest in them, especially in the long term. Just scrapping them and build new ships with the Sol infrastructure is so much simpler and so much more sensible for all parties involved, stop trying so hard !
It sounds like you are all trying very, very hard to find reasons for the GTVA keep UEF warships operational even though they have absolutely no need and no interest in them, especially in the long term. Just scrapping them and build new ships with the Sol infrastructure is so much simpler and so much more sensible for all parties involved, stop trying so hard !
I'm really not; I thought the best course of action would be to scrap them until the thought of using them for policing came up.
OK the logistical demands of UEF ships are being blown waaaay out of proportion. They don't have furnaces that burn Apocalypses, they just need to be rearmed and repaired more between fights than GTVA ships. Tev systems aren't the space equivalent of a muddy field with a few shacks in them, they can afford to produce a few more torpedoes and spare parts.
OK the logistical demands of UEF ships are being blown waaaay out of proportion. They don't have furnaces that burn Apocalypses, they just need to be rearmed and repaired more between fights than GTVA ships. Tev systems aren't the space equivalent of a muddy field with a few shacks in them, they can afford to produce a few more torpedoes and spare parts.
Yeah, but those repairs require yards with different fittings, fed by factories making different parts, designed to different specifications, using different standard materials, running on different protocols requiring different training...
I don't understand why all this talk of "oooh hell and all those logistics that are impossible to build", yeah except in that same solar system that has built them for years and has the know how on how to do so. Unless of course the writers destroyed every single facility that has this ability. As far as WiH1 is concerned this was not the case.Okay, for the sake of argument then, lets say it's not that it's impossible to repair or resupply the UEF ships (nevermind that UEF infrastructure, including one of the places that makes parts for Karuna armor, is stated to be in shambles and that the UEF is on the verge of logistical collapse in terms of its military.) It's that UEF ships, for the purposes of the GTVA, are useless.
That is all very interesting Mars but it contains a deep flawed thought, which is the idea that having a single strategy-able fleet is the best possible solution to the Shivan threat. If you believe you know the Shivans, then that might be somewhat conceivable, but as far as both retail campaigns have shown the Shivans are an elluding mystery that always seem to surprise us. So, in this particular case, the Tevs may have built a whole fleet considering shock-tactics, sudden subspace attacks and swarm assaults by the Shivans, but the hedging on a quite completely different strategy may not be utterly stupid.The ability to cover their systems is not an abstract thought.
So all the paragraph above is extremely abstract, and it may completely ignore the actual inability by the Fed's fleet to oppose any considerable threat by the Shivans.
The GTVA still needs to patrol their own systems, and currently they're using front-line warships for that.
I think the GTVA have some idea of where the Shivans might attack from. They've always attacked from the edges of known space, never from inside a charted and populated system.Well yeah. If a system is charted then there probably aren't any undiscovered jump nodes for the Shivans to sneak through.
It's that simple. The GTVA simply don't need the UEF warships for anything else than scrap, not on the short term, not on the long term.
Well, testing on an actual ship gives you information about the degree and nature of structural damage taken that you don't get from a lump of steel.
I agree that keeping all capital vessels of the UEF in service would be a logistical super-challenge for the GTVA.
However, I don't think it would be a huge challenge to start producing some of the UEF's better secondary armaments.
Besides replacing the Stiletto with the Paveway, what other secondary weapons of the UEF would the GTVA be wise to keep?
Slammers has been said. Darts aren't bad.
For primaries, the Cavalier is a beast of a weapon (and energy based). Maybe UX Accelerators (ammo is a big concern). Warship weapons, the Khatvanga (Point Defense Turret).
Maybe because a superdestroyer would probably cost as much and require as much time for construction as a standard destroyer and its battlegroup? The Colossus took 20 years to build and the Vasudans were doing around half of the work.
I don't think the GTVA has any particular need for the Solaris class, given the investment in R+D, planning, yard space, and actual work required. It doesn't fill a niche that's empty, and the effort involved might as well be used to build a new ship.
Slammers has been said. Darts aren't bad.
For primaries, the Cavalier is a beast of a weapon (and energy based). Maybe UX Accelerators (ammo is a big concern). Warship weapons, the Khatvanga (Point Defense Turret).
The Rapier and Cavalier are 2nd-generation Prometheus derivatives, I guess the Alliance may understand how they might benefit from those weapons (comparing what techniques the Feds used to make them, compared to the GTW-5 Prometheus S).
We haven't seen UX Accelerators in action (but I'm guessing they're not going to consider it because the Maxim already suits anti-hull needs, unless they consider how most of the UEF ballistics have a hell of an anti-shield punch, don't take my word for it)... and god forbid I keep insisting (despite not in any official missions), the Sidhe. Come on. It murders bombers frighteningly efficiently.
Currently blobs and AAA are the only decent bomb interceptors on GTVA ships, so getting rid of them would be a bad idea until pulse turrets can be made more accurate, no?
For the AAA, yeah. But the blobs? I'm skeptical. Pulse turrets are actually pretty decent against warheads; though somewhat inaccurate, they have good range, good rate of fire, much better velocity, and each shot does substantial damage. So even if TT2's are a bit better at warhead intercept, STerPulse's can do (roughly) almost as well on top of good point defense against fighters/bombers and a light secondary anti-ship armament.No, they can't. Most bomber-launched missiles are too small for TerPulse/STerPulse to hit reliably. The TT2 doesn't have this problem. It's essential until PDTerPulse can replace it.
Salty: The Tornado is better than the Dirk. The Dart, on the other hand, is an excellent dogfight weapon because it's perfect for snap shots. Harpoon is a better all-round missile than the Javelin, and I'd choose it all situations.Yeah, that's what I said. I was comparing the Dirk to the Hornet, but it is pretty pointless at this point (by now Tornado is cheap/common enough to pretty much replace the Hornet entirely, I imagine).
No, they can't. Most bomber-launched missiles are too small for TerPulse/STerPulse to hit reliably. The TT2 doesn't have this problem. It's essential until PDTerPulse can replace it.Hm? I've seen a lot of torps get shot down by pulse turrets in various situations--it's not exactly good, but it's decent.
I don't think the Hornet is used at all in WiH.
Hm? I've seen a lot of torps get shot down by pulse turrets in various situations--it's not exactly good, but it's decent.You sure? TT2s and STerPulse look very similar. Moreover, multiple STerPulse tends to be mounted covering the same fire arc, where the sheer number of shots fired means one is bound to hit. That doesn't make it a good intercept weapon.
I don't think the Hornet is used at all in WiH.
Yeah, on second thought (and a 'duh' moment), it'd probably be limited to policing and rear-line stuff at best, at this point.
Maxims on capship turrets is madness.
TT2s and STerPulse look very similar. Moreover, multiple STerPulse tends to be mounted covering the same fire arc, where the sheer number of shots fired means one is bound to hit. That doesn't make it a good intercept weapon.
Hmm... let me think of a hand-wave. Power draw, plus if it's a mass accelerator in technicality, where are they going to get the blocks of... dammit, what's the term... fireable stuff?
Nope, don't think so. They don't behave much like the Procyon Insurgency guns iirc.
Also those screenshots don't account for two things:
1) pulse guns have distinctive ring trails like the Akheton
2) the pulse graphics have been changed internally to be more distinctive
Yes they did, they had a FOF of 0.75 just like Terpulse guns, they just had a much higher velocity so it wasn't as apparent.
(In all honesty, I think the Tauret should be the mainstay fighter of the Vasudan's half of the Alliance, I mean, what can't it do?)Tight turns and flying fast would be my first thoughts on what a Tauret can't do (though I havn't flown one in ages, so my memory might be a bit muddy in that regard).
(In all honesty, I think the Tauret should be the mainstay fighter of the Vasudan's half of the Alliance, I mean, what can't it do?)
(In all honesty, I think the Tauret should be the mainstay fighter of the Vasudan's half of the Alliance, I mean, what can't it do?)
(In all honesty, I think the Tauret should be the mainstay fighter of the Vasudan's half of the Alliance, I mean, what can't it do?)Tight turns and flying fast would be my first thoughts on what a Tauret can't do (though I havn't flown one in ages, so my memory might be a bit muddy in that regard).
With Fury AI that would most likely make the Tauret Mara and Dragon food, unless they can spam the Shivans to death with missiles from a distance.
thus completely running counter to the tei's emphasis on ships that can function with minimal logistics
Post-Capella, the TEI has a few very distinct roles for fighters and bombers, in both waves 1 and 2, as well as uses for pre-Capella craft. A quick rundown:
TEI Wave 2:
GTF Atalanta - Space superiority fighter par excellence. Highly maneuverable, excellent gun placement. Mid-level armor and shields.
GTF Nyx - Assault/multirole fighter. Good weapon compatability, high weapon count, decent maneuverability. High shields and weapon energy.
GTF Draco - Interceptor par excellence. Blisteringly fast, ridiculously maneuverable. Tissue paper armor.
TEI Wave 1:
GTF Kulas - Dirt cheap fill-the-ranks fighter.
GTF Aurora - AWACS.
GTB Reia - Good strike bomber.
Pre-Capella craft:
GTF Ares - Archetypical assault fighter. Heavy armor, high shields, impressive secondary capacity, very slow.
GTF Perseus - Space superiority fighter. Almost perfect blend of shields, weapons, and maneuverability.
GTF Myrmidon - Multi-role fighter. Not easily defined, and isn't the best ship for any given role, but can perform quite a lot of roles over the course of a single sortie.
GTF Hercules Mk. II - Assault fighter. Not as powerful or as durable as the Ares, but more maneuverable (and presumably much cheaper).
GTB Ursa - Heavy bomber. Huge payload, sluggish maneuverability.
GTB Artemis - Mid-weight bomber. Decent payload, decent maneuverability (for a bomber).
The GTVA doesn't use many other Terran designs than that, and even then a lot of them don't get used much. The Perseus and Artemis are hands down the most numerous of the pre-Capella craft seen in BP, while designs like the Myrmidon and Herc II don't get used much aside from a few odd mission roles that would suck up more valuable assets. The TEI Wave 1 craft are all designed very specifically to fight Shivans at their own game. Rhea and Kulas are relatively cheap, maneuverable, and numerous for use combating various Shivan hordes, while Auroras provide AWACS support to stack the odds in the GTVA's favor on the field. The TEI Wave 2 designs, however, take the tradition roles of fighters and distill them to their purest essences.
GTVA fighter doctrine tends to fluctuate wildly back and for between maximum performance and minimum cost/difficulty. The current swing is toward maximum performance, after lessons learned fighting the UEF. The GTVA warship doctrine, however, is slightly more static, most likely because of a longer design cycle and slower turnover. Simply put: you lose more fighters than you lose destroyers, so you adapt your fighter designs more quickly than you adapt your destroyer designs to new threats.
Draco -- [...] It would help if the two fighters had a high parts commonality--production, maintenance, and logistics are much more streamlined, and it can be more flexibly distributed.That is actually a fairly good point. Aesaar's new Draco shares a lot of traits with the Atalanta, and the way I see it, the Draco was designed sort of as an afterthought, after the Atalanta was re-accented toward space superiority. The Draco is the pure-bred interceptor the Perseus and Atalanta never were, that the tevs have been lacking since the Valk, but it would make sense, since the Atalanta was meant as an inty, that the Draco's design was derived from original Atalanta plans.
Also, note: it can't carry Trebuchets. Considering that the Perseus can, it really brings up doubts about the Draco's practicality.Uh wut. You don't need nor want inties to carry trebs. That's what you want missile boats like the Herc2 or Ares for. Inties are meant to use their speed to go toe-to-toe with the enemy, not to use long-range weaponry.
Kulas -- [...] Still, it might be a dirt-cheap fighter that has a slight edge in the space superiority role, making it useful in the Sol theatre.Yeah, the Kulas is the cheap fighter you use to fill the space around ships you want to escort in defence, and swarm the enemy point defences with sheer number of targets in offence. Pretty much the Tev's Anubis in role, and Ulysses/Thoth in ability. Quad PromS and full bank of Tempests are more than enough to ruin anyone's day with an excellent kill/price ratio. I fully expect the Kulas to take over the Myrm as the fresh-off-academy rookie's first assignment.
Rhea -- [...]And cost. Artemises have been pretty much mass-produced as cheap Cyclops delivery systems to fight masses of poorly-defended Shivan capital ships. Note that for both the Rhea and the Artemis, standard Tev doctrine is to discourage dogfighting even though it makes survival chances drop to absurdly low levels. Bombers are expendable, what matters is to make Maxim rain and get Cyclops delivered.
Artemis -- Another hard one to call, because it's not clear whether the Artemis usage in WiH is typical or just an oddity of the Sol theater. They almost always pack Maxims in their single quad bank, and almost always head straight for the target, Maxims blazing and Cyclops firing away without any manoeuvring. Thus, the only thing making it more worthwhile over the Boanerges in that role is, possibly, speed.
Pegasus -- [...] It has minimal combat viability (at least when not facing small numbers of hostile craft), but it's relatively inexpensive for the other roles it fulfils with excellence.Inexpensive ? The Pegasus ? wut.
Erinyes -- [...] I am curious, however, if the Erinyes could be somewhat redesigned to be more manoeuvrable (and, if possible, faster) at the expense of secondary capacity. This would make it an effective advanced space superiority fighter (or possibly space superiority/heavy fighter) that, hopefully, would be a much cheaper alternative to the Nyx (if only as a stop-gap measure).I don't remember the Erinyes was ever said to be cheaper than the Nyx.
The Draco is pretty good at space superiority. It's more maneuverable than the Atalanta, and a lot faster. It's a bit big compared to the other TEI fighters, but still smaller than a Kent. My new model is a bit smaller than the Uhlan.Well, doesn't the Atalanta have side-thrust and reverse thrust, though? I imagine that'd muddy the comparison, somewhat. As for your new model: very glad to hear that. It really fits with its intended role, actual capability, and not to mention the aesthetic. And, of course, it's badass.
The AI is also really good at using it. There's a reason enemy Dracos were removed from every missions of the WiH campaign. Also, considering that, it's a good idea to take its inability to carry the Trebuchet with a grain of salt. In Aristeia, the only mission where the Draco appears, the Trebuchet can't be used on any fighter. It's probably an oversight.Ah. Yeah, that possibility had occurred to me, but since the Nyx can use the Trebuchet, I had wondered. That said, how there aren't any Trebs available in Aristeia from a story-standpoint is a tad baffling (an Anemoi logistics vessel acting as a dedicated carrier and resupply station for wings of fighters capable of using the Trebuchet...not having any Trebs? Eeeeh?), but I understand the gameplay necessities.
The Pegasus is, what? A 20 year old design by this point? Minimal shields, armor, and weaponry, too.And "cheap for a stealth fighter" would be ? I mean, it's not like we have a lot of stealth fighter models to compare with. Also, I don't remember the Pegasus being mass-deployed in WiH. Not only the stealth tech itself is probably ultra expensive, but I expect it is also voluntarily not produced and deployed whenever it can be avoided, in order to limit access to debris and anything else that could enable the enemy to find a weakness in the stealth tech. So it doesn't suffer the fate of the Loki.
I don't mean it's a cheap asset--I mean that it's probably cheap for a stealth fighter, by this point.
As for the cost of the Erinyes: if it was as or more expensive than the Nyx, why would the Nyx's planned deployment be delayed due to extraordinary cost? And why have the Erinyes frequently flying in the Sol theater, when you could just direct all available Nyx production to units serving in the Sol theater and put the Erinyes in places where it's effective--not a deathtrap when deployed in its normal role?Because those are Erinyes units that were produced in the past 18 years, most of em long before the Nyx even hit the drawing boards. And they're still deployed because they're piloted by elite veterans who have mastered this craft and wouldn't be as deadly in a Persie or even an Atalanta.
Well, doesn't the Atalanta have side-thrust and reverse thrust, though? I imagine that'd muddy the comparison, somewhat. As for your new model: very glad to hear that. It really fits with its intended role, actual capability, and not to mention the aesthetic. And, of course, it's badass.