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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mars on October 31, 2012, 02:56:13 pm

Title: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Mars on October 31, 2012, 02:56:13 pm
And Jesus Christ, I hate the Herc II and Myrmidon. I forgot how difficult the campaign can be with them. On insane you cannot even maneuver - you're better off trying to kill whoever's attacking you while pumping primary power to shields. Crikey
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: MatthTheGeek on October 31, 2012, 03:24:22 pm
What's this thread about ?
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Klaustrophobia on October 31, 2012, 03:44:52 pm
that he hates the hercII and myrmidon.  myrmidon, yeah.  hercII though, good missile boat.  don't try to dogfight, just harpoon and tornado the **** out of everything.  double shot is usually insta-kill.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Rodo on October 31, 2012, 03:56:35 pm
Herc II is ****ty.

Myrmi on the other hand I like it.

double subach + tempest for great justice.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Mars on October 31, 2012, 03:59:09 pm
I'm just in shock at how utterly non-survivable they both are, particularly in the first SOC loop.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Megawolf492 on October 31, 2012, 05:28:43 pm
Is anything survivable on Insane? The only thing I would think is a terran Mara with dual Kaysers and trebuchets. Or just set the invincibility flag...but nothing really in either campaign.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: General Battuta on October 31, 2012, 06:06:13 pm
Is anything survivable on Insane? The only thing I would think is a terran Mara with dual Kaysers and trebuchets. Or just set the invincibility flag...but nothing really in either campaign.

Perseus stays alive well on Insane. Agility and speed become more important than shields/armor.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Klaustrophobia on October 31, 2012, 06:11:38 pm
my joystick/keyboard/monitor are not survivable on insane.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Alex Heartnet on October 31, 2012, 08:01:01 pm
Perseus stays alive well on Insane. Agility and speed become more important than shields/armor.

In that case, would the Loki do well, being the extreme fragile speedster it is?
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: General Battuta on October 31, 2012, 08:08:43 pm
Perseus stays alive well on Insane. Agility and speed become more important than shields/armor.

In that case, would the Loki do well, being the extreme fragile speedster it is?

I don't remember having much luck with it, nope. You do need enough armor to survive beam hits.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Dragon on October 31, 2012, 08:38:21 pm
Pegasus is surprisingly fun to fly, provided it's stealth works and the enemy can't lock missiles onto you.
Loki is a bit too fragile, not to mention it lacks missile capacity, which is another important thing. And unlike the Pegasus, it doesn't have stealth.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Klaustrophobia on October 31, 2012, 08:49:42 pm
the loki blows. 
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: yuezhi on October 31, 2012, 09:43:50 pm
huh. i always found the loki to be a nuisance in silent threat reborn.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Rodo on October 31, 2012, 10:09:08 pm
you guys are so wrong.

Loki rules.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Mars on October 31, 2012, 10:34:04 pm
The Perseus is a dream - though Feint! Perry! Riposte! is impressively difficult. Nimble enough to not get creamed instantly, and can still take a AAA burst. Flak is awful on insane though - every flak turret must be about equal to 2 AAAfs on insane. I forgot about the Aeolus that jumps in on Love the Treason, and it basically pulled off an instakill on me.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Apollo on November 02, 2012, 08:34:27 pm
The Loki's actually not that bad. Its combination of a small target profile and more shielding than the Perseus makes it a pretty decent light fighter.

And Jesus Christ, I hate the Herc II and Myrmidon. I forgot how difficult the campaign can be with them. On insane you cannot even maneuver - you're better off trying to kill whoever's attacking you while pumping primary power to shields. Crikey

Yeah, the Myrmidon's tech description is a bunch of bull****--it doesn't maneuver well, it has no more missiles than the average GTVA fighter, and it has the target profile of a Medusa without anywhere near the armor or shielding.

I'm replaying the campaign too and right now I'm pissed that I have to fly that piece of crap.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: el_magnifico on November 02, 2012, 09:40:36 pm
The Loki's actually not that bad. Its combination of a small target profile and more shielding than the Perseus makes it a pretty decent light fighter.
Good gunpoint placement, speed, maneuverability and an IMPRESSIVE reactor output actually make it a good space superiority fighter that can more-or-less double in other roles due to its extensive weapons compatibility. If I remember correctly, the Loki can handle dual Prom-S or Kayser/Subach configurations easily for prolonged engagements.

I've already presented my case for Terran Silent-Threat era technology more than once in the past, and even proved it's worthiness in one of my unorthodox Forced Entry video playthroughs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfX1gZhsd3Q). I guess I just might as well open a fan-club for the unfairly underrated Loki and Zeus.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Apollo on November 02, 2012, 09:51:45 pm
Yeah the Loki's really underrated.

The Zeus has serious problems in terms of armor, speed, and payload, but it actually dogfights better than the Artemis, mostly because it turns at a decent rate and it can actually hit things with its primaries.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: el_magnifico on November 02, 2012, 10:20:17 pm
I also have something to say about the Loki's alleged fragility when compared to the Perseus...

Quote from: Loki's table entry
Shields: 400
Hitpoints: 250
Power Output: 3.0

Quote from: Perseus' table entry
Shields: 350
Hitpoints: 265
Power Output: 2.0

The Loki actually looks superior to me.

The Zeus has serious problems in terms of armor, speed, and payload, but it actually dogfights better than the Artemis, mostly because it turns at a decent rate and it can actually hit things with its primaries.
:yes: The Zeus is the most versatile design of the two. Superior gunpoint placement indeed make it a better dogfighter, while split primary banks give it a flexibility in the battlefield that the Artemis sorely lacks, and it notes.
That being said, the Zeus really starts showing its weaknesses as a bomber in higher difficulty levels. Also, it's worth noting that I have a strong bias against the Artemis, and I feel like I have to be very honest about that.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Apollo on November 02, 2012, 10:33:28 pm
:yes: The Zeus is the most versatile design of the two. Superior gunpoint placement indeed make it a better dogfighter, while split primary banks give it a flexibility in the battlefield that the Artemis sorely lacks, and it notes.
That being said, the Zeus really starts showing its weaknesses as a bomber in higher difficulty levels. Also, it's worth noting that I have a strong bias against the Artemis, and I feel like I have to be very honest about that.

I always wanted to like the Artemis. The problem is, it has poor gun placement and maneuverability, the two most important dogfighting statistics.

You know, it seems like almost every strike bomber has a crippling flaw: The Artemis has crap gunpoints and maneuverability, the Athena can't carry real bombs, the Zeus can but it has much worse payload and weaker armor.

The Bakha and the Sekhmet are the only exceptions I can think of, being fairly good in an anti-capital and anti-fighter role. In particular, the Sekhmet is both the strongest and most maneuverable strike bomber in the game. It could easily be used as a heavy space superiority fighter instead of a bomber.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: el_magnifico on November 02, 2012, 10:52:29 pm
I always wanted to like the Artemis. The problem is, it has poor gun placement and maneuverability, the two most important dogfighting statistics.

You know, it seems like almost every strike bomber has a crippling flaw: The Artemis has crap gunpoints and maneuverability, the Athena can't carry real bombs, the Zeus can but it has much worse payload and weaker armor.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I guess the game wouldn't be fun if you had a superbomber and/or fighter that could do it all.

Quote
The Bakha and the Sekhmet are the only exceptions I can think of, being fairly good in an anti-capital and anti-fighter role.

Yeah. Vasudans know how to make bombers, that's for sure.
Spoiler:
What? Who is this Osiris you mention? :confused: I'm sorry amigo, me no understands mucho el English ¿sabe? :P  :lol:

Quote
In particular, the Sekhmet is both the strongest and most maneuverable strike bomber in the game. It could easily be used as a heavy space superiority fighter instead of a bomber.

The profile is huge, though. And it still forces you to choose a single primary, which makes carrying a Maxim a risky gamble.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Apollo on November 02, 2012, 11:21:05 pm
The profile is huge, though. And it still forces you to choose a single primary, which makes carrying a Maxim a risky gamble.

The Sekhmet's large target profile is unfortunate, but it still has the unique ability to carry as many warheads as the Ursa and still dogfight competently. It forces you to choose a single primary, which does make carrying the Maxim a bad idea. However, it also gives it a huge ROF boost that allows it to tear apart most fighters in seconds. It's not a perfect ship, but none of its flaws are as huge as the Artemis's inability to dogfight well or the Zeus's poor armor and payload.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: CP5670 on November 03, 2012, 12:13:13 am
The Sekhmet is easily the best bomber in the game overall and has no major weaknesses. It works equally well as a heavy fighter and was actually one of the most commonly used ships in online TvT games (next to the Herc II). A Maxim may still be a good choice for it if the enemies in the mission consist mainly of other bombers, since you can pair it up with Tempests for shield damage against slow moving enemies.

One thing that becomes important on insane difficulty is the primary energy capacity (which also controls the recharge rate). Some ships with quad primary banks also have small capacities, and the primary banks are less useful than at lower difficulties. The Artemis, Tauret and Sekhmet all have a capacity of only 100, as opposed to 150 for many of the other ships.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: yuezhi on November 03, 2012, 12:16:51 am
you all say perseus, i say valkyrie. :D

IMO the most overrated fighter ever is the ares. as if the herc2 wasn't slow enough, the ares doesn't carry much more than its predecessor and is easy prey for all the maras, manticores and dragons when it's introduced. on another note, don't ask me about ETS since i've given up on understanding it because of how it changes with difficulty.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: el_magnifico on November 03, 2012, 12:18:03 am
It's not a perfect ship, but none of its flaws are as huge as the Artemis's inability to dogfight well or the Zeus's poor armor and payload.
The Artemis supposedly superior missile capacity to the Zeus deserves to be taken with a grain of salt. When you consider the Artemis' unfortunate design, you realize that in those admittedly larger missile bays you have to accommodate both anti-fighter missiles and anti-turret ones. This leaves you, in a best case scenario, with room for 4 Cyclops.
The Zeus has smaller secondary bays, but with split primary systems and better placed gunpoints it can either carry a Maxim or a second anti-fighter cannon, freeing up a secondary slot to accommodate another bank of Cyclops. You can easily end up with 6 Cyclops there, giving you an extra 50% of raw anti-capital firepower when compared to the "superior" Artemis. Also, the fact that they are split in two separate banks means that, at least in theory, you can fire 4 Cyclops in a single pass (yeah, good luck with that).
Of course, a Maxim may not really be the same as a fire-and-forget Trebuchet or the slightly inferior Stiletto II for anti-turret work, and another pair of primaries in a bomber is not necessarily better than a dedicated missile bay for fighter suppression*, but in terms of raw firepower against capital ships the two are still comparable. It says a lot about an allegedly dated design when it can be at least as good, if not actually better, than its supposedly superior replacement in its more defining aspect (number of bombs you can put on the target before needing to rearm).

These same liabilities of the Artemis don't apply to the Sekhmet because it's far more prepared to deal with enemy fighters by using its primaries, while also having TWICE the missile capacity of the Zeus.


*: But do keep in mind that unlike the Zeus the Artemis is unable to carry Harpoons, which are the prime anti-fighter missiles.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: Apollo on November 03, 2012, 12:40:59 am
You have a point there. The Zeus doesn't need anti-fighter missiles as much because it can actually hit thing with its lasers, freeing up more space for Cyclops.

IMO the most overrated fighter ever is the ares. as if the herc2 wasn't slow enough, the ares doesn't carry much more than its predecessor and is easy prey for all the maras, manticores and dragons when it's introduced. on another note, don't ask me about ETS since i've given up on understanding it because of how it changes with difficulty.

I usually think of the Ares as a bomber* that's meant to attack other fighters instead of capships--with six gunpoints and huge missile banks it annihilates anything in front of it, but it gets murdered in dogfights, making an escort wing neccesary to protect it.

-----------------------------------------------------
*Technically, Trebuchets can destroy capships. They really don't do enough damage to be useful for this, however.

But, they can take down most fighters in one or two hits.
Title: Re: Replaying the Campaign again. . .
Post by: el_magnifico on November 04, 2012, 04:57:58 pm
Here's my playthrough of the mission "Sixth Wonder" with a Loki, so that you can compare and see how well it fares as an interceptor (difficulty: Hard).
I'll add a playthrough of "Into the Maelstrom" as soon as I have a chance (which could be a few weeks).

http://youtu.be/EWtJsHey15c (http://youtu.be/EWtJsHey15c)