Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: karajorma on November 17, 2012, 11:27:54 pm
-
Just to prove that America isn't the only country that's ****ed up about abortion.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/17/ireland-abortion-case-father
The father of the young woman who died after being refused an emergency abortion in Ireland has appealed directly to the Irish prime minister, Enda Kenny, to change the country's legislation on abortion.
Interviewed by the Observer, Andanappa Yalagi issued a personal plea to Kenny: "Sir, please change your law and take consideration of humanity. Please change the law on abortion, which will help to save the lives of so many women in the future."
Mr Yalagi also says he will take legal action against the hospital to try to prevent future acts of "inhumanity". He and his wife, Akkamahadevi, expressed fury at the way in which Savita Halappanavar, 31, had been treated and revealed that no one from the hospital nor the Irish government had been in touch to express any remorse for the death of their only daughter. "I want to take legal action against them over the inhumane way they treated my daughter," said Mr Yalagi, speaking at his home in the southern Indian town of Belgaum.
Mrs Halappanavar died in agony at University Hospital Galway after doctors refused her pleas to abort her miscarried baby and told her that Ireland was a Catholic country and that she had to abide by its laws on abortion.
Her family say their only solace is that her husband was able to tell her, moments before she was rushed into intensive care, that she had been carrying a baby girl – which had been her greatest desire.
The case has prompted a furious reaction in Ireland and around the world and brought calls for the law to be clarified to allow an abortion to be carried out if the mother's life is in danger. Even the Catholic church in India has expressed surprise at the hospital's refusal to permit the abortion.
In their first full interview with a British newspaper, her parents described their heartbreak and devastation at the loss of a beautiful and vivacious young woman who had brought only joy to their lives until her death on 28 October.
Of her treatment at the Galway hospital, Mr Yalagi said: "They are doctors but they were not humane. If they had been humane, they would have treated her. I do not want this to happen to other people. I am very angry." He said that his daughter and her husband, Praveen, had pleaded with the hospital to carry out an abortion after she began to miscarry, but doctors refused because they could still detect a foetal heartbeat. Only when that stopped did they finally carry out an emergency operation to remove the foetus, but by then it was too late to save the mother.
The couple said they wanted the Indian government to take up the issue with its Irish counterpart at the highest level. "We want the government of India to put pressure on Ireland to change the law so that this cannot happen in the future," said Mr Yalagi. India summoned Ireland's ambassador on Friday to express its concern over the death and to ask for the inquiry into it to be independent.
Mrs Halappanavar had worked as a dentist in Galway for four years after moving there with her husband, an engineer with the Boston Scientific company. The couple married in 2008.
Her parents had been enjoying a holiday with them in Ireland and the four had travelled around the country seeing the sights. They discovered she was pregnant shortly after arriving. "She was very excited and she said that she really wanted a daughter," said Mr Yalagi. "She had a great love for the female child." But on 21 October, Mrs Halappanavar went to hospital complaining of severe back pain. Not realising the seriousness of the situation, her parents returned to India two days later when their 90-day visas expired.
The last they saw of her was in her hospital bed, where they said she appeared happy and relaxed and showing no signs of serious problems.
Her mother said that they were still unable to come to terms with their daughter's death. "She was so open-hearted and made us laugh. She always kept us happy, she was making jokes. She always took a great interest in everything she did and she was a real leader," she said.
"We are in deep grief and sorrow. We could not bear her departure," her father added. "It was so unexpected. The last time we saw her in the hospital in Galway she was smiling and saying that they were providing good food. She was in a normal room and we thought that it was nothing serious."
Mrs Halappanavar was 17 weeks' pregnant when she was admitted to hospital. Her father said that her condition had deteriorated after their departure and she appeared to be miscarrying. "But the hospital refused an abortion. They said there was still a foetal heartbeat. They told her that it was a Catholic country and that abortion was banned until the foetus's heartbeat stopped.
"She requested several times and my son-in-law requested, telling them, 'We are not Catholics, we are Hindus, please do the abortion immediately because her life is in danger', but they continued to refuse. She was terribly worried and was in great pain. "You would think that for humanity's sake they would have carried out an abortion."
Mrs Halappanavar died of septicaemia and her husband had to break the news to her father. "When I found out that she had taken her last breath it was a terrible shock," said Mr Yalagi. "I could not believe the words that he was saying. She was my only daughter."
But he said he was glad that her husband had had the opportunity to tell her she had been carrying a girl before she was taken into the intensive care unit. "He leaned over and told her that it was a female child. I don't know if she was still conscious but I am glad he could tell her," he said. The couple spoke fondly of a young woman who had seemed to have everything going for her in life. "She was very intelligent and very talented and she always had a good relation with the public," said Mr Yalagi. "She was taking very good care of us. She was a kind and thoughtful girl."
She was a talented dancer who had taught herself and had been passing on her skills by teaching children in Galway to dance. "Even in school she was doing dances," her mother said. "By birth she was a dancer."
Mrs Halappanavar's body was returned to India on 3 November and she was buried the same day. The Irish prime minister has promised to look into the case.
The insistence that an abortion could not be carried out has prompted anger and bemusement in India, even among Catholics. The spokesman for the Delhi archdiocese told the Hindustan Times that while the church was against abortion, the priority should have been to save the mother. "You are not aborting the child. You are only taking steps to save the mother of the child," Fr Dominic Emmanuel told the paper.
What I want to know is if anyone, no matter their stance on other issues to do with abortion thinks the doctors acted correctly in this case.
Quite frankly I think they should be struck off and prosecuted for manslaughter.
-
Ireland permits abortion in cases where the mother's life is at risk. The question is why the hospital refused it
-
it seems in this case they were following the law to the letter. on the contrary aborting the foetus could have been seen as manslaughter, and the doctors were just cya. so i wouldn't blame the doctors in this case, it would be the law that is at fault.
-
Second calls for the manslaughter charge. I dearly hope this will lead to the law getting changed, because for a country that has such great beer, their legal conservatism on issues like this is illogical and appalling.
Jesus, I can't even imagine how those doctors would be able to sleep at night, or think that this was within the bounds of the Hippocratic Oath.
-
Ireland permits abortion in cases where the mother's life is at risk. The question is why the hospital refused it
This. As far as I know, even countries with total ban on abortion make an exception when the mother is threatened. In fact, at 17 weeks she would have been refused an abortion unless there is a threat to her life in plenty of other countries, including my own. Seems like a gross medical malpractice to me, Id be very surprised if abortion was really illegal in this case.
-
At least in America, most conservative Christian organizations and churches supported (or felt ambivalent towards, but did not universally oppose) abortion rights up until the 70s and 80s. Then weird **** went down, I guess.
-
American politics are crazy, but given the huge majority Obama had in women (and specially single) I think the Republicans might just have had enough of the christian zealots. Either they cave on that issue or they just risk losing the next elections.
Ireland ... oh well.
-
Then weird **** went down, I guess.
I heard that opposing abortion was a tactic by the Nixon campaign to swing usually-Democrat-voting Catholics to vote Republican, and ever since it's been part of the GOP platform. Another fun fact is that they poured tons of money into Planned Parenthood in its early days, before they performed abortions.
-
I've been following this too. Ireland is already in hot water after a couple European Court rulings on human rights cases regarding abortion, this just adds fuel to the fire.
For those saying Irish law would have allowed abortion in this case, you may be incorrect. Septicemia, which is what killed the mother, is not always a result of miscarriages. It's common enough that she SHOULD have had the pregnancy terminated after it failed to self-terminate quickly, but it's not a given end result. She died of septicemia after having had the miscarriage and developing the blood infection.
This is why ambiguity in law is always bad. Abortion rights should be universal. Some of the countries with the lowest abortion rates are those in which there virtually are no abortion laws.
-
i may be incorrect, all i have to go on in this case is an unsited forum post, but i dont care enough too look it up. then again doctors arent lawyers. they may have also been following hospital policy. they probibly were also catholic, in which case performing the abortion would have been against their religion. so yea, im not going to lynch them over that. the inevitable malpractice suit is probibly punishment enough. negligence is not murder.
-
I read something about this, to the effect of:
The law says abortion is illegal, always.
A high court said "except if the mother's life is in danger".
Law is still on the books --> doctors still won't do it.
-
It's common enough that she SHOULD have had the pregnancy terminated after it failed to self-terminate quickly, but it's not a given end result. She died of septicemia after having had the miscarriage and developing the blood infection.
Indeed, I don't doubt that there might have been some legal reasons to go after these doctors. My issue is not whether or not they followed the law, it's more how on Earth they can reconcile following the law to a degree that it results in the death of a woman with being a doctor, a person whose purpose is to save lives.
To me this is like refusing to cross the road to administer CPR because you might risk a jaywalking ticket.
-
Seems to me it's a case of admitting that the abortion laws in Ireland are Theocratic, rather than Democratic, they are based on religious belief more than protecting both mother and child as much as possible.
It is the situation of people trying to perform a scientific service, i.e. Medicine and Surgery, under a theocratic guideline that cares more about offending some invisible third party than the well-being of its own people.
-
It's common enough that she SHOULD have had the pregnancy terminated after it failed to self-terminate quickly, but it's not a given end result. She died of septicemia after having had the miscarriage and developing the blood infection.
Indeed, I don't doubt that there might have been some legal reasons to go after these doctors. My issue is not whether or not they followed the law, it's more how on Earth they can reconcile following the law to a degree that it results in the death of a woman with being a doctor, a person whose purpose is to save lives.
To me this is like refusing to cross the road to administer CPR because you might risk a jaywalking ticket.
The penalty appears to a life sentence. Hardly a slap on the wrist like a jaywalking ticket. It's easy to criticise their choice but would you have done it differently in their position? A life sentence is nothing to scoff at.
Blame the ambiguity of the law. It is also a bad idea to charge people for following the law no matter how stupid it may appear
-
The key bit here for me is
Mrs Halappanavar died in agony at University Hospital Galway after doctors refused her pleas to abort her miscarried baby and told her that Ireland was a Catholic country and that she had to abide by its laws on abortion.
to my mind that changes the procedure from an abortion as nature/God has already aborted the fetus to a procedure for removing the decaying body from her, as such the abortion laws should not apply.
-
I guess that legally she wouldn't be considered to have actually miscarried until after the heartbeat stopped. Regardless of how stupid that might be.
The penalty appears to a life sentence. Hardly a slap on the wrist like a jaywalking ticket. It's easy to criticise their choice but would you have done it differently in their position? A life sentence is nothing to scoff at.
Absolutely would have.
Couldn't live with myself if I didn't.
I'd be ****ing worried about anyone I knew who would say something different.
-
The penalty appears to a life sentence. Hardly a slap on the wrist like a jaywalking ticket. It's easy to criticise their choice but would you have done it differently in their position? A life sentence is nothing to scoff at.
Absolutely would have.
Couldn't live with myself if I didn't.
I'd be ****ing worried about anyone I knew who would say something different.
In that case I applaud you. No jest there and full sincerity.
However, do understand not everyone is as selfless as you. If faced with such an absurd situation where the course of action is obvious but I am hamstrunged by a ridiculous law, I honestly doubt my ability to do the right thing. I'd be having sleepless nights knowing my inaction killed a person but I'd also be sleepless with the threat of a life sentence dangling of me
-
Had the doctors followed their responsibilities to preserve life, they would have carried out the abortion on the miscarried fetus. Ireland has case law that permits abortions in cases where the mother's life is at risk. That's not ambiguous; Ireland follows a version of Common Law and case law trumps and interprets written legislation. The doctors could not have been legally convicted of a crime as long as it was established that the mother's life was at risk (which as I pointed out before, could have been established but is definitely a possible sticky point).
In this case, it appears the doctors/hospital decided to go with their interpretation of theocratic responsibilities, rather than their legal and medical obligations.
Regardless, I sincerely hope this changes things for the women of Ireland. It is frankly ridiculous how much sway the Catholic Church holds in that country, and makes me very glad my grandfather moved our family here.
-
Some of the countries with the lowest abortion rates are those in which there virtually are no abortion laws.
Need citation.
Because, you know, all the statistics I am aware of point out the exact opposite.
-
Some of the countries with the lowest abortion rates are those in which there virtually are no abortion laws.
Need citation.
Because, you know, all the statistics I am aware of point out the exact opposite.
Just so happens there's a pending Lancet publication on this very subject. Summary here, citation for study under the graph: https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/what-happens-when-there-is-no-abortion-law/
As the author points out, liberal abortion policy hand-in-hand with sex education reduces the abortion rate, not laws regulating it.
-
Very well. So the comparison is between "abortion is legal but cumbersome" countries and "abortion is not even a legal question" countries? Because that scatter plot seems to conflate a lot of third issues (developing vs developed nations, culture and so on), and does not seem very reliable. What is reliable is that for every instance that I know of that some country has liberalized abortion in some fashion, it skyrocketed.
-
Given that we have no data and only your recollection of this, it's not very reliable at all.
-
See USA, see Portugal, see every single european nation that has liberalized abortion recently. I am a portuguese and this discussion is not novel to me.
-
Very well. So the comparison is between "abortion is legal but cumbersome" countries and "abortion is not even a legal question" countries? Because that scatter plot seems to conflate a lot of third issues (developing vs developed nations, culture and so on), and does not seem very reliable. What is reliable is that for every instance that I know of that some country has liberalized abortion in some fashion, it skyrocketed.
Now, I don't know about Portugal, but from what I can gather, there's one issue here where the US stands alone. The reason why Canada has overall lower abortion rates is partially due to better education, but another big factor is overall availability of health care. In the US, having a child is a big decision in financial terms, bigger than in Canada or most european states, simply because of the costs associated with providing adequate health care to Children. If you have to pay through your nose for every infection, every broken bone, every checkup you have to do, then it's much easier to make a decision for an abortion. When health care is free, Women no longer have to factor that in, and so the decision rests solely on other factors.
TL;DR: Free Health care = More babies.
-
Now that is an argument that is much more compelling than the ill-conceived argument of "no laws means less abortions". As I said, there's a lot of third issues that aren't being plotted in that "research", and it strikes me as very suspicious the way nations are "grouped" there. (There's also something to say about how qualitative characteristics on "how liberal" a legal system is is turned into a quantitative measurement, and then a p<0.05 graph is squeezed out of it).
It's this kind of social studies that give the field such a bad name.
-
That's one graph from an entire piece published in the freaking Lancet. Considering I see absolutely no data from your side of the argument, I'm inclined to trust the study published in a highly-respected medical journal. Just sayin'.
So, Luis: citation required.
-
Again, read the numbers of abortions in every single country the year before liberalization and the year after. Or, if you prefer, ten years before and ten years after. The notion that "liberalization" mean less abortions is prima facie nonsensical, a logical aberration, something utterly demanding an impressive explanation, something that wasn't given at all.
Now, if you "add" other variables like healthcare, education, economic issues, etc., then it makes sense. Notice however how these very important variables are logically separated from abortion law. You can have a country with a proper single payer healthcare, good sex-ed, a good economic outlook and so on, and still not be liberal about abortion. Prima facie, it's quite obvious that in such a country the abortion numbers would be even lower than in Canada.
-
logically separated from abortion law.
They're not.
-
Or to elaborate, this idea that abortion legislation exists in a vacuum unrelated to the other factors involved in the existence of the abortion rate is, at best, naive. All the things you cite as separate aren't separate matters from deregulated abortion if you bother to look at for/against comparisons and under what conditions such a proposal could be made and passed as law.
-
-snip-
Citations imply data, Luis, not you blathering on. I was kind enough to provide a citation for my claim, so if you'd like to be taken seriously then kindly do the same for yours. I don't even expect a medical journal reference, any reputable source will do, but bonus points if you find one.
-
I'll go further. Since Luis specifically asked for a citation to back up your point, his next post better be him providing a citation for his point of view or him dropping the subject.
-
Here is the study in question:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/Sedgh-Lancet-2012-01.pdf
If you read the discussion, you will find out that they think that increased availability of contraception in liberal countries is responsible for their lower rate of abortion. No mention of abortion laws. Remember, correlation does not necessarily mean causation. I cannot imagine how a law against abortions would actually increase them.
-
Personally, I think trying to seperate out the various factors into individual effects is a pointless exercise, it could be argued that the availability and acceptance of birth-control is as much a side effect of the liberal attitude towards sex as the abortion laws themselves.
I think the cornerstones of this are Education and tolerance, a country that has good awareness of the risks of unprotected sex, access to protection without judgement, and a health system that respects the rights of individual women to choose will lead to less problems with regards to unwanted pregnancies and STI's.
Those systems have to be balanced with a system that helps people make the right decision regarding terminating the pregnancy, but the first step to dealing with a social problem has always been to accept that problem exists not because people are 'bad' or 'sinful' or 'wanton', but because they are people.
-
I remember reading something on HLP about abortion laws and abortion rates, which basically said "abortion laws don't stop abortion", and the way it was presented suggested (at least to me) that it was a case of "here are the abortion rates before it became illegal, and here are the abortion rates after"
or something like that?
-
I remember reading something on HLP about abortion laws and abortion rates, which basically said "abortion laws don't stop abortion"
Even tough I am pro-choice, I dont find this kind of argument to be good, if you want to argue that abortion should be legal. Abortion is similar to murder from the point of view of those who want it banned. And you dont legalise murder just because there are problems with high murder rates. The same logic should apply to other crimes, including illegal abortion.
-
Even tough I am pro-choice, I dont find this kind of argument to be good, if you want to argue that abortion should be legal. Abortion is similar to murder from the point of view of those who want it banned. And you dont legalise murder just because there are problems with high murder rates. The same logic should apply to other crimes, including illegal abortion.
I think there are some circumstances where I would legalize something because it's going to happen anyway (drug use, for example), but in general I agree with you. These people view abortion as murder, and statistics won't change that.
On a slightly different note, these doctors are ****ing terrible people for what they did. I'm no expert on Irish law, but if it's true that an abortion would be allowed in these circumstances, they're all ****ing murderers. I'd like to throw those bastards in prision for manslaughter.
Man, I'm sick of all this fundamentalist bull****. If these people are opposed to abortions that's their decision, but they shouldn't force their religious beliefs on other people.
EDIT: And this is coming from someone who isn't strongly pro-choice (though I'm definitely not pro-life). I'm actually rather uncertain about the issue in general, but there are some circumstances where I think the mother absolutely has a right to an abortion (death, rape, incest, teenage pregnancy, etc.)
Wait, I'm allowed to curse, right? :nervous:
-
im all for legalized murder.
-
Apollo, either a fetus is not a person, as basically any measure of a person would conclude, or it is a person and entitled to be viewed as such and entitled to the same rights as everyone else. You can't really go halves with that. Or 3/5ths.
Also, first trimester fetuses are not people.
-
I know that. I've just always been uncomfortable with abortion and that probably makes me take a fairly weak stance.
If I think about it rationally, I can conclude that abortion is acceptable as long as the fetus is not viable and hasn't developed enough to feel pain. After that, it has to be limited to cases where the mother's life is at risk.
A lot of my discomfort comes from the fact that I haven't done much research on the subject, so I have little idea when the cut-off point would be (though I imagine a first trimester fetus wouldn't have developed that far).
-
Or 3/5ths.
I see what you did there.
-
So uh... wasn't the baby already dead?
-
I believe it was about to die and they refused to perform an abortion anyway. That's part of what makes this so horrible.
-
Apollo, either a fetus is not a person, as basically any measure of a person would conclude, or it is a person and entitled to be viewed as such and entitled to the same rights as everyone else. You can't really go halves with that. Or 3/5ths.
Also, first trimester fetuses are not people.
As far as personhood is concerned, note that even granting full legal personhood to foetii would not really restrict abortion when the mothers life or health is in danger. In that case, it is basically killing people in self-defense (or defense of others), and that is allowed no matter what.
I know that. I've just always been uncomfortable with abortion and that probably makes me take a fairly weak stance.
If I think about it rationally, I can conclude that abortion is acceptable as long as the fetus is not viable and hasn't developed enough to feel pain. After that, it has to be limited to cases where the mother's life is at risk.
A lot of my discomfort comes from the fact that I haven't done much research on the subject, so I have little idea when the cut-off point would be (though I imagine a first trimester fetus wouldn't have developed that far).
Here is an overview of possibilities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood#Biological_markers
Id go with the reverse of "higher brain death" when brainwaves appear, at 5-6th month.