Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Wing Commander Saga => Topic started by: Lorric on November 22, 2012, 10:38:18 am
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Did you people ever decide how many fighters each capital ship capable of housing fighters can hold? Or decide roughly if not exactly, for both factions? I'd be interested to know please for each type of vessel if it's not too much trouble.
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This might make the question easier to answer and may be helpful/interesting to others. I have slammed torpedoes into everything you can slam a torpedo into and recorded how much damage it does. So for answering the question all you need to do now is copy that and delete that which you don't need and put a number next to the ship classes that can launch fighters. If it's not too much trouble.
Sha’Kar (Transport) - 100%
Dukara (Troop Transport) - 100%
Kamrani (Corvette) - 100%
Zakhari (Frigate) - 100%
Ralarrad (Light Destroyer) - 100%
Ralaxath (Heavy Destroyer) - 70%
Fralath (Light Cruiser) - 100%
Fralthi II (Heavy Cruiser) - 52%
Dubav (Light Carrier) - 49%
Bhantkara (Heavy Carrier) - 33.33%
Hvar’Kann (Dreadnought) - 10%
Orbital Station - 22%
Asteroid Base - 22%
Command Station - 17.5%
Dry Dock - 17.5%
Prowler - 100%
Clarkson (Transport) - 100%
Pelileu (Troop Transport) - 54%
Venture (Corvette) - 100%
Caernevon (Frigate) - 100%
Southampton (Destroyer) - 86%
Savannah (Light Cruiser) - 48.5%
Tallahassee (Heavy Cruiser) - 43%
Harrier (Automated Carrier?) - 55%
Yorktown (Light Carrier) - 43%
Jutland (Carrier) - 26%
Lexington (Heavy Carrier) - 23.25%
Confederation (Dreadnought) - 26%
Behemoth - 26%
Supply Depot - 44%
Naval Base - 7.25%
Sector HQ - 7.25%
The Kilrathi have much to learn about building vessels with sturdy hull integrity I think :)
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Cats prefer firepower over durability. Their armament is either stronger that that of Confed ship of the same purpose, or a given ship class is cheaper than the confed equivalent. Their vessels are also a bit faster.
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Cats prefer firepower over durability. Their armament is either stronger that that of Confed ship of the same purpose, or a given ship class is cheaper than the confed equivalent. Their vessels are also a bit faster.
Hmmm, is that so? I wonder if that means it's easier to get a torpedo off against a confed ship than a Kilrathi one then. I would think going by these figures though the weapons would have to be much stronger in order to overcome the durability issue in a capital ship duel of the same class.
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Why don't you fly around and try. IIRC, it's easier to find a dead angle on a Confed ship. Also, keep in mind Kilrathi ships were almost always more numerous than Confed ones (mostly applies to fighters and light warships). In some cases, you might want to count two Kilrathi ships for a Confed equivalent.
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Why don't you fly around and try. IIRC, it's easier to find a dead angle on a Confed ship. Also, keep in mind Kilrathi ships were almost always more numerous than Confed ones (mostly applies to fighters and light warships). In some cases, you might want to count two Kilrathi ships for a Confed equivalent.
I've been carrying on with my mission balancing thing which I've been hooked on.
I have done some fighter experiments though, and Darkets seem to just slaughter Arrows and Hellcats which really surprised me. If you take out the IR missiles, it's just a turkey shoot for the Darkets. Even with inferior AI (at least I presume inferior, Major AI for Darkets, Wingman AI for Confeds.) The Arrows are stupid, they don't go to their IR bank, they stick to their first bank which has heatseekers, and they can't get behind the Darkets and neither can Hellcats once the initial coming together is done. I didn't test it, but I imagine things will change with the heavier Confed fighters with the rear turrets. I've also been starting to wonder if the Longbow is actually the best of all, though haven't tested it, simply for it's heavy shield, rear turret and deep missile banks. Frequently in missions with bombers and escorts, after I've lifted the invulnerability, the escorts get wiped out very quickly, but the bombers stick around for much longer notching up the kills. It seems to me it is the bombers that should be protecting the fragile Hellcats and Arrows! :)
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EDIT: IGNORE THIS. I've fixed the bug. The fixed version can be found further down.
Speaking of mission rebalancing, hey Dragon, give this one a try...
Mission 28 on steroids... :)
There is however a bug which occurs frequently which leaves some Kilrathi loitering around the spawn point, so you have to go and flush them out to advance the stage. I've encountered the same issue with mission 41.
EDIT: I may have found the source. I had looked in the events and wings sections for initial orders for the Kilrathi and found none so was puzzled, since it wasn't contravening anything, and if anything, there are more targets to go for now. So I decided to give all the wings a simple engage enemy order, but it looks like the saga team have given each specific ship orders to attack certain ships. And of course if those ships are destroyed...
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I don't have much time for playing those days. Darkets slaughtering Arrows is most likely because the former have stronger weapons, and Arrows are hampered by this AI problem. As for Hellcats, is this a surprise? That's the worst fighter in both WC3 and 4. The Longbow, on the other hand, is an amazing machine. Not as good as the Broadsword, but next to the Thunderbolt and Excalibur, it's the best ship in WC3.
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I don't have much time for playing those days. Darkets slaughtering Arrows is most likely because the former have stronger weapons, and Arrows are hampered by this AI problem. As for Hellcats, is this a surprise? That's the worst fighter in both WC3 and 4. The Longbow, on the other hand, is an amazing machine. Not as good as the Broadsword, but next to the Thunderbolt and Excalibur, it's the best ship in WC3.
I don't actually own WC3. I have rented it, but the game just doesn't fit my preferences for this genre. I don't like you against the World games in general, and WC3 is essentially that with a wingman in tow. WC4, which I do own, is better in this regard.
It seems wrong for bombers to be better than fighters though. Why even have fighters if the bombers can just do everything better?
Funnily enough, I like the Hellcat. I do tend to lean towards medium fighters in general though.
I am now setting about giving every ship (and there are just soooo many...) a lower priority attack any ship order to see where that gets me.
Fair enough if you don't want to play. It's good anyway if it's given me the kick I need to get rid of this bug, as I love the way that stage has turned out and it's glorious when the bug doesn't occur.
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It works now. The cats will all engage.
Mission 28 - Removed ally invulnerability. Prevented the scripted deaths of Rock, Nox, Ickle, Chance, Codeine and the capital ships Astoria, Bentley and Fletcher. Added 12 Arrows, 12 Hellcats and 6 Thunderbolts. Made the cats pick new targets after their initial target is destroyed.
This is one huge furball!
[attachment deleted by a basterd]
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Back to the OP... ;)
So how many fighters can each carrier/dreadnought class carry?
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Back to the OP... ;)
So how many fighters can each carrier/dreadnought class carry?
I'm not holding out much hope here. The Saga people seem to have just vanished...
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Back to the OP... ;)
So how many fighters can each carrier/dreadnought class carry?
I'm not holding out much hope here. The Saga people seem to have just vanished...
What?
At least some of us are still here.
And to answer the question: The fighter compliments are whatever fits for the mission.
If you want canonical Wing Commander values you can look into the WCPedia http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Main_Page
You can also search the Wing Commander forums at wcnews.com for answers, or ask there, or ask in the wcsaga.com forums, there are some discussions about such things already.
EDIT:
Also please note that the canonical values don't necessarily make much sense. Some are pretty weird. So depending on whether you are interested in being accepted by some people who really like canonical values you may use them and live with it, or just ignore them and take whatever fits better.
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WC is pretty similar to FS in that regard :p (in that sometimes canon doesn't make as much sense as you'd hope).
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Most sci-fi are like that. And nobody cares. Except geeks :D :D
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Back to the OP... ;)
So how many fighters can each carrier/dreadnought class carry?
I'm not holding out much hope here. The Saga people seem to have just vanished...
What?
At least some of us are still here.
And to answer the question: The fighter compliments are whatever fits for the mission.
If you want canonical Wing Commander values you can look into the WCPedia http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Main_Page
You can also search the Wing Commander forums at wcnews.com for answers, or ask there, or ask in the wcsaga.com forums, there are some discussions about such things already.
EDIT:
Also please note that the canonical values don't necessarily make much sense. Some are pretty weird. So depending on whether you are interested in being accepted by some people who really like canonical values you may use them and live with it, or just ignore them and take whatever fits better.
I already tried, the wikipedia I mean. It didn't help me. I think there was one of the lighter ships which had a rough approximation, but most of them don't say at all.
Still, if even the people who made the mod didn't have any kind of limit set on this, I guess it doesn't matter too much. If there's no concrete information, then there's no concrete information.
The earlier games it would have been irrelevant because they wouldn't have had the power to field a ship's fighter compliment anyway. But Saga can, so I wondered for if I'm tinkering with missions. I'll have a look in the wcsaga.com forum just in case there's anything there.
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EDIT: I'm going to start editing this with certain information. Either I didn't read the confederation ships, or was looking somewhere else, but I'm starting to uncover information.
My earlier question, now gone, it says 5 fighters is a "small half squadron", so 12 squadrons = 120 for the Confederation class. Unless "small" means less than half.
Southampton class - 5 fighters.
Yorktown - 40 fighters.
Confederation class - 120 fighters. (12 squadrons)
Jutland - 90-100
Tallahassee it says unknown, but also says light compliment and also that it can house it's own squadron. So perhaps 10?
Caernaven it says light. Nothing more. No information on any other confed ships. The Jutland, your own carrier, doesn't even have a page. However, I just found out about the Wing Commander Saga manual, and that specifies 90-100 combat craft and 20-30 support craft. In addition, the Hermes has 10 fighter squadrons, supporting the 10 fighters to a squadron estimate.
Yes, I only checked the Kilrathi. It says the Rallarad has a "small compliment" and the Bhantkara has a "large compliment" but that's it. I do know the Ralaxath has no compliment though.
Oh, wait! It does specify exactly that the Hvar'kann carries 252 fighters. That puts a monkey wrench in the final mission, I know there's way more than that.
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Jutland 90
Yorktown/Concordia 40/96
Confederation 120
Tallahassee 12 (Arrows - or 8 with Hellcats)
Southhampton 5 (Arrows)
Savannah 8 (Arrows)
Fralthi 2 around 30 light fighters (Darkets and Dralthis)
Bhantkara 100
Fralath 16 (see Fralthi)
Dubav 40
Ralarad about 4 (Darkets)
Ralarax about 8 (Darkets and Dralthi)
Both frigates has no hangarbay for a fighterwing. Also the corvettes.
And remember: The Hvar`kann has 252 but you destroy a lot of they fighters in the missions before ;) In the end about 100 left
The Harrier has around 60-72 fighters (5-6 Squadrons)
Gettysburg has 36 (3 Squadrons - not yet in the game ^^)
Northhampton has 8 (4 Arrows, 4 Hellcats - not yet in the game)
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Jutland 90
Yorktown/Concordia 40/96
Confederation 120
Tallahassee 12 (Arrows - or 8 with Hellcats)
Southhampton 5 (Arrows)
Savannah 8 (Arrows)
Fralthi 2 around 30 light fighters (Darkets and Dralthis)
Bhantkara 100
Fralath 16 (see Fralthi)
Dubav 40
Ralarad about 4 (Darkets)
Ralarax about 8 (Darkets and Dralthi)
Both frigates has no hangarbay for a fighterwing. Also the corvettes.
And remember: The Hvar`kann has 252 but you destroy a lot of they fighters in the missions before ;) In the end about 100 left
The Harrier has around 60-72 fighters (5-6 Squadrons)
Gettysburg has 36 (3 Squadrons - not yet in the game ^^)
Northhampton has 8 (4 Arrows, 4 Hellcats - not yet in the game)
Where are you getting this from? If Ralarax is Ralaxath it specifically says the Ralaxath can't launch fighters. It could certainly have an escort though.
"Fralath 16 (see Fralthi)"
Is that meaning Darkets and Dralthi like the Fralthi II?
As for the Hvar'kann I was being generous. Maybe they got resupplied :D
I thought it seemed strange the frigate got fighters in the wiki when there is clearly no bay in the game. I guess we can disregard that piece of information.
As for those other ships you mentioned, is something in the works?
Thanks a lot. Do you have any information on the fighter compliment of installations?
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The numbers are from the Saga Team or based on http://www.kitsune.addr.com/SF-Conversions/Rifts-WC-Vehicles/
The Gettysburg and Northampton are in my Campaign Last Line of Defence. The Northampton is that one:
http://imageshack.us/a/img197/1107/screen0052y.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img577/7048/screen0049.jpg
From the Gettysburg I show you the old model. The new one is in work :D
http://imageshack.us/a/img20/4350/screen0039.jpg
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I hope I'm not remembring things wrong, but wasn't there a Lexington class of carriers? If so, how many fighters could it carry?
IIRC, the three classes of carriers in WC Saga were: Yorktown (light), Jutland (medium) and Lexington (heavy).
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I hope I'm not remembring things wrong, but wasn't there a Lexington class of carriers? If so, how many fighters could it carry?
IIRC, the three classes of carriers in WC Saga were: Yorktown (light), Jutland (medium) and Lexington (heavy).
CT27, Here's some musings I've been doing just an hour or so ago. You can find your answer near the top, the rest, though a bit scruffy, I don't know if I'm going to do anything with it for a while, so I'll just put it up.
Oh and thanks Deathsnake. I'm not sure if I thanked you or not. I'll try your mod if you get it out. It looks nice.
Here's the stuff I'd been typing up:
Fighter compliments:
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/SF-Conversions/Rifts-WC-Vehicles/
Bhantkara (Heavy Carrier) - 112: 40 Darkets, 32 Dralthi, 24 Vaktoths, 16 Paktahns. Also 16 shuttles.
Dubav (light Carrier) - 40: 16 Darkets, 12 Dralthi, 8 Vaktoths, 4 Paktahns. Also 8 Assault Shuttles (would just be normal shuttles in WCS)
Jutland (Carrier) - 84: 36 Arrows, 24 Hellcats, 16 Thunderbolts, 8 Longbows. Also 20 shuttles.
Hermes (Jutland Carrier) - 90: 20 Arrows, 30 Hellcats, 20 Thunderbolts, 20 Longbows, +10 Excaliburs? Also 20 shuttles and 4 Artemis.
Lexington (Heavy Carrier) - 100: 36 Arrows, 24 Hellcats, 20 Thunderbolts, 20 Longbows. Also 20 shuttles.
Confederation (Dreadnought) - 120: 48 Arrows, 36 Hellcats, 24 Thunderbolts, 12 Longbows. Also 20 shuttles.
Saga Team
Jutland 90
Yorktown/Concordia 40/96
Confederation 120
Tallahassee 12 Arrows or 8 Hellcats
Southhampton 5 (Arrows)
Savannah 8 (Arrows)
Harrier 60-72 fighters (5-6 Squadrons)
Fralthi 2 around 30 light fighters (Darkets and Dralthis)
Bhantkara 100
Fralath 16 (see Fralthi)
Dubav 40
Ralarad about 4 (Darkets)
Ralarax about 8 (Darkets and Dralthi)
Tactical Formations
I decided to run this knowledge through the “tactical formations” section found in the Wing Commander Saga manual.
Raiding Party - This kind of goes against the logic here, as it says that a single Ralarad will serve as a tiny flagship, bringing along a compliment of both light and medium fighters and several assault shuttles. While here all it says it can manage is 4 Darkets. Maybe they can be externally mounted like it says further down for the scout frigate?
Wolfpack - It says 4-6 Corvettes. However, since the target is known and chosen for the Wolfpack to hunt, I don’t see why fighters wouldn’t be along, unlike the Raiding Party, which is for striking behind enemy lines at soft targets. Also says it can be destroyers or cruisers as well, which would boost the fighter compliment significantly. 4-6 Rallarads would bring along 16-24 Darkets and 4-6 Cruisers could be anything from 64 to 180 fighters depending on number and class.
Scout Unit - A scout frigate with several externally mounted jump capable fighters and sometimes other ships such as light destroyers or corvettes. A bit vague to try and figure this one out.
Reconnaissance in force group - Now we’re talking. Taking down one of these, either in one big mission or a handful of missions could be fun. One Dubav, 2-3 Ralarads, a scout frigate, and a “fistful” of Corvettes. Going by the wolfpack entry, I’d guess this to be 4-6 corvettes. So at full size, this would be a Dubav, 3 Ralarads, a scout frigate, 6 corvettes, 28 Darkets, 12 Dralthi, 8 Vaktoths, 4 Paktahns. And maybe even those 8 shuttles.
Carrier Battle Group - Again, great potential for a several mission campaign or one great big mission to fight off a Kilrathi battle group. Though we’d be talking BOE proportions for such a mission this time, so likely unwise. A Bhantkara or Hvar’kann, 2-3 cruisers, 4-6 destroyers and 2 scout frigates. Sure some ships could be substituted, but going by this, at full strength for fighter capacity, though I won’t include a rare Hvar’kann, That would be a Bhantkara, 3X Fralthi II, 6X Ralarad, 2X Scout Frigate plus, now here’s an idea I had, the source says 112 fighters on a Bhantkara, the Saga team says 100. How about instead of 112 specified fighters, 100 fighters of any type I want from Darkets to Sorthaks. Though it would be unfair I think to have 100 Sorthaks. Keep some realism to it. Plus 90 Darkets/Dralthi on the cruisers, plus 24 Darkets on the Ralarads. 214 fighters.
Number conversions - I imagine going by the numbers, certain fighters could be substituted. I’m guessing the heavier fighters take up the same space on the deck as the lighter ones as a group, thus there are less heavies. With a Bhantkara having 40 Darkets, 32 Dralthi, 24 Vaktoths, 16 Paktahns and a Dubav having 16 Darkets, 12 Dralthi, 8 Vaktoths, 4 Paktahns, this suggests to me you could trade 2 Darkets for a Vaktoth and 2 Dralthi for a Paktahn if you wanted beefier ships, especially bombers, in an attack force. I don’t see any real need to be switching up Darkets and Dralthi. Likewise if an already lighter fighter heavy force needed to be even more lighter fighter heavy, you could trade in those heavier ships for more lighter ones. Perhaps an arrangement like with Hermes, you could have maybe 30 Darkets, 30 Dralthi, 20 Vaktoths and 20 Paktahns. Or perhaps the Lexington would be more suitable a model, so 36 Darkets, 24 Dralthi, 20 Vaktoths, 20 Paktahns.
I wonder how much deck space those asteroids and Sorthaks take up… However, the Asteriods would be expected to be found loose in asteroid fields, while the Sorthak is specialised for long range missions, so could probably just be thrown in on top of any of those above battle groups.
Of course there’s no need to be so precise. These are just as good for just hitting somewhere near the mark rather than being precise.