Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Wings of Dawn => WoD Archive => Topic started by: Lorric on December 10, 2012, 02:00:58 am
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I found this:
http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysuerace.htm
Spoon, have the Cyrvans take the Mary Sue Race Test. I'm not sure if they'll pass you know, but I don't know the answers to some of the questions.
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Hi, these are bad, and you should feel bad for pushing bad tools for writing.
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That test is unbelievably bad. Both the Shivans and Vishnans from BP get tagged as "probably a Mary Sue race", which I believe noone has ever argued for in any of the discussions.
Seriously, Lorric, this is a case where the only sane response is "STOP HELPING!", because you're very definitely not.
Just like the previous trollscritics WoD has attracted, you give something that is almost, but not quite valuable advice; advice that is unsolicited and, judging by the success Spoon has had, unnecessary.
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It was only supposed to be a bit of lighthearted fun. At least Legate Damar's getting into it, so some good came out of it :)
Ah, the term "Mary Sue" is a vague thing anyway.
Who are these "critics"? I normally only ever see good things said about WoD.
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"lighthearted fun" in the same way that "add gargants" was constructive criticism.
The point is, this "test" signifies nothing.
Let us take a look at this. The test supposedly checks whether or not a fictional race is a Mary Sue race. Now, the question is, what are you supposed to do with the result? One of the best SF backgrounds in existence (Iain Banks' Culture universe) features a race that is so blatantly Mary-Sue-ish that you could pretty much tick all the boxes in that little test, and it still manages to be compelling and a good playground for the author.
Then let us consider the Shivans. Even they score 10 points on that Test, making them dangerously Mary-Sue (They could score higher, if we knew the canonical answers to all the sex/procreation stuff the test asks about), yet noone ever said "Welp, those Shivans are faaaar to boring to be taken seriously".
Also, the term "Mary Sue" is not vague at all. I think it's actually rather well defined for something that is on Tvtropes.
Trying to pass off a test that is supposed to check for the presence of a given trope (one whose presence is implied to be negative) for lighthearted fun is at best misguided, at worst trolling IMHO.
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"lighthearted fun" in the same way that "add gargants" was constructive criticism.
The point is, this "test" signifies nothing.
Let us take a look at this. The test supposedly checks whether or not a fictional race is a Mary Sue race. Now, the question is, what are you supposed to do with the result? One of the best SF backgrounds in existence (Iain Banks' Culture universe) features a race that is so blatantly Mary-Sue-ish that you could pretty much tick all the boxes in that little test, and it still manages to be compelling and a good playground for the author.
Then let us consider the Shivans. Even they score 10 points on that Test, making them dangerously Mary-Sue (They could score higher, if we knew the canonical answers to all the sex/procreation stuff the test asks about), yet noone ever said "Welp, those Shivans are faaaar to boring to be taken seriously".
Also, the term "Mary Sue" is not vague at all. I think it's actually rather well defined for something that is on Tvtropes.
Trying to pass off a test that is supposed to check for the presence of a given trope (one whose presence is implied to be negative) for lighthearted fun is at best misguided, at worst trolling IMHO.
I don't know what a gargant is. I know Final Fantasy IX had a place called "Gargant Roo" but I'm sure that's nothing to do with anything.
I wouldn't care if a race scored 27 on there if I liked them. It was inspired by Andrew of Doom's little comment about torturing the "Mary Sues" with the nerf bat. It appears he has lived up to his name on me.
I'm going to have to call you out on TVtropes though. They can't define it, and instead break it up into a great many different subtypes of "Sue". I don't want to argue though. This was only supposed to be innocent fun.
Misguided then. This is the first time I've ever used the term "Mary Sue" in my life. I've been aware of it for a few years though. My own personal definition would pretty much be defined by the word "flawless" and the Cyrvans clearly do have flaws.
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Also, the term "Mary Sue" is not vague at all. I think it's actually rather well defined for something that is on Tvtropes.
Credit where it's due; concept dates back to the '70s and Trek fanzines.
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This "test" could definitely be taken as a perceived insult. I took it that way (in the post you removed)...
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Couldn't get 10 for the Shivans, not sure how you came up with that. Nonetheless, this page uses "xir" and can therefore be safely ignored as almost certainly rubbish. :nod:
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Couldn't get 10 for the Shivans, not sure how you came up with that. Nonetheless, this page uses "xir" and can therefore be safely ignored as almost certainly rubbish. :nod:
I do not see the logic here.
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Whoop to autobots!! Autobots scored 27 in my head ;7
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From what I know about Cyrvans, they've scored an 8 on the test. So not so bad. They get points mostly for technological superiority and it's results. They could possibly score a 11 or 12 depending on Spoons beliefs (the test emphasizes creator's beliefs as a factor) and certain things not detailed anywhere (and for a good reason, those aren't things you typically ask about...). They have their share of idiots and even fought a civil war over a pretty dumb reason, so the species doesn't qualify. They're definitely Mary Sues from military/gameplay standpoint (IIRC, that's what AoD was referring to), having very few disadvantages (especially with regards to high-tier ships), but they're not undefeatable if you know where to hit them. Not to mention you can't really take table values as a "final word" in terms of ship's capabilities.
I don't know what a gargant is. I know Final Fantasy IX had a place called "Gargant Roo" but I'm sure that's nothing to do with anything.
You haven't been on this forum for long, did you? :) Gargant is sort of a running joke, an unreleased, 40km ship created for Inferno. It was awesome back when it was made, but it's very old by now. Also, Inferno is no longer the last word in campaign design, and the concept of the Gargant as "ultimate Shivan ship", as well as the size escalation it represents now seem laughable.