Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Scourge of Ages on December 18, 2012, 11:21:29 am
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As it is now, is 8 worth getting, even just for the performance and security bonuses? Will it still be compatible with everything that Vista is today? What about hard drive space, is it lighter than Vista, and do you think an upgrade install would cut out all the space that Vista is using, or just add to it? (I know I should probably format and clean install, but I don't like the hassle)
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Windows 8 is a good OS. It is faster than 7 (and definitely faster than Vista!), while making a few good decisions in terms of rethinking the Windows UI. It also makes a few utterly incomprehensibly stupid missteps (such as making the UI a somewhat disjointed affair with some elements using the new style and some elements staying as they were in Vista/7), and the stupid STUPID decision to make Apps not all that useful in a desktop environment by requiring them to be fullscreen affairs.
Despite what the internet would have you believe, the start screen is not bad at all, it is as usable as the 7/Vista start menu was.
As a Windows 8 user, my recommendation is to upgrade to 7. 7 is almost as fast as 8, while being perfectly usable. Upgrading to 8 is only a good idea if you do not mind dealing with some of 8's idiosyncracies.
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I personally feel that those idiosyncracies are not idiosyncratic enough to warrant upgrading to Windows 7 instead, if the Win8 upgrade is indeed cheaper. I don't feel that Win8 has any disadvantages over Windows 7, except mabye that it takes a bit longer getting used to due to idiosyncracies (what a word!).
I do not know about file sizes, although I did think that Win8 is smaller then Win7, I am not sure if I remember that correctly from when I installed it.
An upgrade install leaves your Vista installation intact, renaming the folder to windows.old, just in case you want to uninstall windows 8. If you feel happy with Win8, remove the WinVista folder.
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I did exactly what was just said by you and I haven't looked back. For $40 (I think Newegg has it for $30 right now actually) I don't think you could really go wrong with that since the upgrade to 7 is $200.
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i got 7 more than a year ago for $100. i've seen sales for it at $70 somewhat recently.
my advice is that if vista is doing everything you need it to, don't upgrade at all.
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i saw if you was do it
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If I was still running Vista, and actually needed to use Windows for more than a small portion of my time, I'd probably just upgrade to 8.
Upgrading to 8 probably wouldn't cut disk usage by much at all.
You can use that classic shell thing if metro makes you want to vomit as much as it makes me want to.
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It seems that the obvious choice would be to just get 7 instead. But money's tight, and since 8 is so cheap right now, it seems more attractive. If anybody has any advice on how to get a full, legit version of Windows 7 for less that $100, let me know. Otherwise, I'll set aside some time later and just reformat and go for 8.
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You'll pay full price if you format. Use the upgrade copy and save yourself the trouble.
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You guys don't understand Windows licensing.
It's OK, neither did I, until I spent an internship at a qualified MS partner selling the OS.
Even though it has been simplified, Windows licensing is still a complex affair, so it's no wonder people don't know about all the options:
1. Corrected. Windows 8 can be bought as OEM or Upgrade. There is no Full Boxed Product (FBP) for End Users.
1. For end users, Windows 8 can only be bought as OEM. This means, either you buy the OEM kit or it's pre-installed on your machine by your supplier. End users can only buy Windows 8 and Windows 8 Pro (there's no Ultimate or Basic version this time around).
//No, as an End user, you can't buy a Windows 8 upgrade. This is because MS is trying to cut down on all the head-ache the various licenses were causing and because Personal Use Licenses were introduced. Corporate partners with Software Assurance can upgrade their OS as part of the program, but that's a whole different beast.
2. Using the OEM kit, you can install the OS with either an OEM or a PUL license.
3. OEM:
a) An OS installed using the OEM license is "bonded" to the machine it was installed to and can't be legally moved to a different computer or sold separately from the machine. The person who did the installing is considered the tech-support supplier and will have to provide tech-support for the machine themselves. MS only provides tech-support related to the OS itself. MS considers the machine the same as long as you're using the same motherboard, with the exception of warranty replacement if the part goes bad.
b) The OEM license can also be used to "downgrade" that is, install a previous version of Windows using the license at hand. With Windows 8 Pro OEM, you're entitled to install and use Windows 7 Pro or Windows Vista Business. - so no, you could just buy a Windows 8 Pro OEM kit, and downgrade, no need to buy the expensive Windows 7 upgrade.
4. PUL:
a) When using the PUL license, the end user uses an OEM kit, but doesn't use the serial provided in the kit. Instead they must register their copy with Microsoft on the following webpage:
http://www.windows.com/personaluselicense
b) Unlike the OEM license, a version of Windows 8 using the PUL license *can* be moved to a new machine and *can* be sold separately.
c) Microsoft only provides limited support for PUL.
d) You're NOT permitted to downgrade when using a PUL license.
5. Upgrade:
This one is the cause of all the headache. An Upgrade doesn't given you any sort of base license!
a) To upgrade, you need an upgrade base. For Windows 8 this has to be at least Windows XP and costs $40. If you have Windows 7 you might be eligible for a lower price of $14.99. (This depends on what deal your PCs manufacturer made with MS).
b) The license restrictions of the upgrade base will still apply to the machine:
Upgrade + OEM upgrade base --> machine still uses OEM license, upgrade base can't be moved
Upgrade + FBP upgrade base --> machine has FBP license, the upgrade base can be moved
c) So if you apply the upgrade to an OEM machine, the Upgrade will also be stuck?
No, you're still permitted to remove the Upgrade and restore the machine to its Upgrade Base OS (the OS that it was running before you applied the Upgrade). The Upgrade then can be applied to a different machine, provided it has a sufficient upgrade base.
d) Do you have the right to "Downgrade" from Windows 8 when using an Upgrade license?
NO. If you applied the Windows 8 Pro Upgrade to a machine running Windows XP, you're not permitted to Downgrade to Windows 7 Pro or Vista Business.
4. Previous Windows versions could be bought in three forms:
a) OEM - Read about it above
b) FBP (full boxed product) - This version of the OS could be freely moved from machine to machine, sold separately, and received full support. It also cost 2x much as an OEM kit.
c) Upgrade - Read about it above
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Wow. I didn't know you can't buy an upgrade copy as an end user.
OH WAIT. (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/home)
What's that on their front page? Upgrade copy for $39.99? Yes I do believe so. If end users WERE NOT meant to buy this, why in hell would it be so prominently featured?
Something about what you're writing doesn't make sense. For the record, I went from two OEM copies of Vista Ultimate to two copies of Windows 8 Pro with the upgrade system. Did it complain? Hell no.
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Seems like you're right about there *being* a Windows 8 Pro upgrade, when I read the last MS licensing manual (in early august), the program did not yet start.
However, you didn't understand what I wrote about the nature of Upgrades: you *can* upgrade either an OEM or a FBP OS, the upgrade doesn't care as long as you install it on an appropriate version of Windows, or using the appropriate serials when doing a clean install.
What it does mean, is your license depends on what version of Windows you used as an upgrade base.
Upgrade + OEM --> OEM license, the upgrade base is still tied to the machine
Upgrade + FBP --> FBP license, the upgrade base can be freely moved
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Strange, since this was announced in July.
Citation: http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/07/02/upgrade-to-windows-8-pro-for-39-99.aspx
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It seems that the obvious choice would be to just get 7 instead. But money's tight, and since 8 is so cheap right now, it seems more attractive. If anybody has any advice on how to get a full, legit version of Windows 7 for less that $100, let me know. Otherwise, I'll set aside some time later and just reformat and go for 8.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116986
if you keep an eye on it, it will probably go on sale every now and again.
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Just to put my two cents in: I'm running 8 on every standard system in my apartment, except the girlfriend's desktop and laptop, and my server running Server 2012 (courtesy of school giving me copies for free).
Yes, it is better than Vista. Is 7 worth the extra cost over 8? No. The core 8 OS is cleaner and faster. The interface is a minor annoyance that I've fairly quickly acclimated to, and software to circumvent the new interface is plentiful if you just can't get past it.
There's a couple of minor compatibility issues I've seen mentioned, but none I've personally run into. Admittedly I haven't checked my Windows 8 initial install size or compared it to Windows 7, but the laptop (32 bit Win 8) that I'm currently writing this on has a Windows folder that is 12.9 GB.
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You'll pay full price if you format. Use the upgrade copy and save yourself the trouble.
I think an upgrade version of Windows (as opposed to a boxed/full version or an upgrade install) just means you have a valid previous version, and during the process it gives you the option to do a clean install - formatting the partition - or upgrade install which will just push the old Windows out of the way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but paying full price just because I want a clean install doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116986
if you keep an eye on it, it will probably go on sale every now and again.
That's the OEM version though. Since I built this computer when Vista itself was still young, I'll probably need to build a new one sometime before 9 is released, and I'd like to be able to transfer whichever Windows I choose over. And I have been looking around and I haven't ever seen an OS go on sale, but it couldn't hurt to keep watching, I guess.
There's a couple of minor compatibility issues I've seen mentioned, but none I've personally run into. Admittedly I haven't checked my Windows 8 initial install size or compared it to Windows 7, but the laptop (32 bit Win 8) that I'm currently writing this on has a Windows folder that is 12.9 GB.
That's pretty slim, especially if that includes a decent sized page file. My Vista Windows folder is... 29.5 GB and that's after I keep trying to pare it down using WinDirStat.
And thank you, Flaser, for that long summary of licensing stuff. Can you clarify something for me though? If I use the Windows 8 Upgrade Assistant, which is what you get following the big button that Zero Serenity pointed to, would that upgrade my OEM Vista to a full 8 Pro, which I should be able to transfer to another computer should the need arise later?
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Vista must take up more space than 7 as well. I fairly regularly install 7 on 40 and 80 GB hard drives in old P4 towers and I hardly ever remember 7 taking more than 20 GB at most.
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You'll pay full price if you format. Use the upgrade copy and save yourself the trouble.
I think an upgrade version of Windows (as opposed to a boxed/full version or an upgrade install) just means you have a valid previous version, and during the process it gives you the option to do a clean install - formatting the partition - or upgrade install which will just push the old Windows out of the way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but paying full price just because I want a clean install doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
You're correct. This whole affair is more an issue of licensing. In fact it's often recommended to do a clean install when doing an "upgrade", as in-place upgrades have a notorious reputation for not turning out quite well. What should be said is one needs a valid *license* of a previous version of Windows to qualify for an upgrade *license*.
Still, upgrades can be tricky and one better read up on procedures - especially if their machine was pre-installed and they don't have an install medium on hand - before going ahead.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116986
if you keep an eye on it, it will probably go on sale every now and again.
That's the OEM version though. Since I built this computer when Vista itself was still young, I'll probably need to build a new one sometime before 9 is released, and I'd like to be able to transfer whichever Windows I choose over. And I have been looking around and I haven't ever seen an OS go on sale, but it couldn't hurt to keep watching, I guess.
If you installed the OS using a PUL license, then you'd be able to transfer it to a new system. The whole PUL scheme is pretty much an dejure acknowledgment on MS's part, giving home users the ability to treat their OS as they *thought* they could. (There was and is a widespread misunderstanding that you can move an OEM OS to a new machine provided you removed it from the old. Although it might pass Windows Activation, this can't be done legally).
In essence, to use PUL, you buy an OEM kit, but instead using the supplied serial you register your copy with MS and get a new serial and a new license that does allow the transfer of the OS.
There's a couple of minor compatibility issues I've seen mentioned, but none I've personally run into. Admittedly I haven't checked my Windows 8 initial install size or compared it to Windows 7, but the laptop (32 bit Win 8) that I'm currently writing this on has a Windows folder that is 12.9 GB.
That's pretty slim, especially if that includes a decent sized page file. My Vista Windows folder is... 29.5 GB and that's after I keep trying to pare it down using WinDirStat.
And thank you, Flaser, for that long summary of licensing stuff. Can you clarify something for me though? If I use the Windows 8 Upgrade Assistant, which is what you get following the big button that Zero Serenity pointed to, would that upgrade my OEM Vista to a full 8 Pro, which I should be able to transfer to another computer should the need arise later?
Unfortunately, I can't tell you anything for sure as I've never seen the Upgrade Assistant in action, though given it's description you should be able to choose what edition you buy. Normally when upgrading you can always move "up" (from home to pro, and from pro to enterprise if switching to volume licensing), but not the other way around. The current Wikipedia article on Windows 8 editions also supports this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8_editions
It is possible to upgrade Windows XP or Windows Vista to Windows 8 Pro.
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Nice, thanks. I think that pretty much seals it, unless I can find a really cheap full edition of 7 somewhere within the next week or two.
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Just to put my two cents in: I'm running 8 on every standard system in my apartment, except the girlfriend's desktop and laptop, and my server running Server 2012 (courtesy of school giving me copies for free).
Yes, it is better than Vista. Is 7 worth the extra cost over 8? No. The core 8 OS is cleaner and faster. The interface is a minor annoyance that I've fairly quickly acclimated to, and software to circumvent the new interface is plentiful if you just can't get past it.
There's a couple of minor compatibility issues I've seen mentioned, but none I've personally run into. Admittedly I haven't checked my Windows 8 initial install size or compared it to Windows 7, but the laptop (32 bit Win 8) that I'm currently writing this on has a Windows folder that is 12.9 GB.
Yeah, the furor over 8 being "terrible" is almost as overblown as the Mayan apocalypse, which is to say, both are crap but they get a lot of attention or something. The Metro start screen is just as functional as the start menu, and all you have to do if you don't want to use the full-screen "app" style is change the default programs that open pictures/video/whatever. I know that for me, whenever I install a new OS (and I reformat and reinstall pretty often), it always takes a while to customize it to get it working the way I want it to, whether it's Windows 7, Linux Mint/Ubuntu, whatever. 8 is no different in that respect, and I appreciate its improved performance, which is peanuts on my powerful gaming rig but extremely noticeable on some of my older machines that don't have the luxuries of a SSHD, gratuitous amounts of RAM, and an overclocked i5. :p
I also appreciate that, for whatever reason, MS finally realized that charging less insane rates for an OS is probably a good idea!
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That's the OEM version though. Since I built this computer when Vista itself was still young, I'll probably need to build a new one sometime before 9 is released, and I'd like to be able to transfer whichever Windows I choose over. And I have been looking around and I haven't ever seen an OS go on sale, but it couldn't hurt to keep watching, I guess.
if you're buying and installing a copy for yourself, OEM is functionally equivalent to the full, non-upgrade version. it just comes in a box that is white instead of shiny, and a bit of verbage you can disregard about how to supply it to your customer, you being the system builder. oh, and it will ship with a dead hard drive or something when you order it. a few reviews even said they got lucky and received a working one with it.
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I thought OEM meant that once you install it, it's locked to your motherboard (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/22055-63-what-difference-version-retail#t98185), and couldn't be installed on a different computer?
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i haven't tried installing it on a different computer. but i DID have to RMA my motherboard a few months ago, and it gave me no problems, so i'm thinking no. and i've always heard you can just do the phone activation and they'll clear it for you if the automated one gives you ****.
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I thought OEM meant that once you install it, it's locked to your motherboard (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/22055-63-what-difference-version-retail#t98185), and couldn't be installed on a different computer?
The locked part is "supposed" to prevent you from Activating that copy with another motherboard. Emphasis on "supposed".
i haven't tried installing it on a different computer. but i DID have to RMA my motherboard a few months ago, and it gave me no problems, so i'm thinking no. and i've always heard you can just do the phone activation and they'll clear it for you if the automated one gives you ****.
If you say that you're replacing a faulty motherboard, they're supposed to do that.
Thing is, the whole debacle with OEM restrictions is more a legal one - more important if you're working with them in a company environment - than a technical one. Strictly speaking the reason one's not supposed to replace their motherboard is just because their license says so.
I just thought it prudent to point out what OEM actually is, as far as the license is concerned, instead what most users assumed it was. (See what I wrote about PUL).
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my line of thinking was if the OS actually detected that you changed out your hardware, it would have thrown something at me because it wouldn't know mine was a replacement part. it would have just seen the hardware change. i therefore concluded that it's just in the license agreement and we're on the honor system.
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“Host process for windows services stopped working and was closed” for the last time! **** you Vista, forever.
See you guys on the other side...
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Windows 8 is a good OS. It is faster than 7 (and definitely faster than Vista!), while making a few good decisions in terms of rethinking the Windows UI. It also makes a few utterly incomprehensibly stupid missteps (such as making the UI a somewhat disjointed affair with some elements using the new style and some elements staying as they were in Vista/7), and the stupid STUPID decision to make Apps not all that useful in a desktop environment by requiring them to be fullscreen affairs.
Despite what the internet would have you believe, the start screen is not bad at all, it is as usable as the 7/Vista start menu was.
As a Windows 8 user, my recommendation is to upgrade to 7. 7 is almost as fast as 8, while being perfectly usable. Upgrading to 8 is only a good idea if you do not mind dealing with some of 8's idiosyncracies.
Just modify 8 to work like 7. There are programs that put the start menu back, as well as ones that allow toggling apps between windowed and full-screen. Google is your friend.
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Yes, there are. Personally, I would not use third-party programs that **** around with the window management, but that's just me.
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Yes, there are. Personally, I would not use third-party programs that **** around with the window management, but that's just me.
Yeah... there are a ton of window/desktop style programs for Windows 7 too... few, if any, of them are 100% stable. Mostly stable yeah... but as far as I am concerned every single crash is one too many.
Object Desktop I m looking at you.
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You could always pay for one of the ones that offers a year of tech support, as well as business licenses, but the problem is that's not free... Not really expensive though. retroui.com looked promising and it was $10. 3.5 stars out if 5 on softonic, and they are ofc releasing updates regularly. I might give that a try if the free versions are too unstable after a while.
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You could always pay for one of the ones that offers a year of tech support, as well as business licenses, but the problem is that's not free... Not really expensive though. retroui.com looked promising and it was $10. 3.5 stars out if 5 on softonic, and they are ofc releasing updates regularly. I might give that a try if the free versions are too unstable after a while.
Well Object Desktop was 50 bucks and definitely not 100% stable either :P
Those programs usually do have at least some issues... like crashing explorer every once in a blue moon.
At least that s my experience.
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WooooaaaaoooooaooOOhhh I am speaking to you from the other siiiiiiide...
The upgrade was a success! And pretty simple too. The biggest problem so far has been installing drivers for my network cards. 8 wasn't able to automatically install either the integrated ethernet card or the dodgy wifi card, so I had to do it manually. Getting the drivers onto the computer wasn't too hard with a laptop and thumb drive, but neither Gigabyte nor Trendnet have released Windows 8 drivers. So I had to find a way to install non-approved, unsigned drivers to even get onto the internet. Somehow it worked, I'm not really sure how. But it's done.
And I'm definitely installing an old-style start menu, so that I can easily access My Computer and the Control Panel at the very least.
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My Vista drivers went in during my installation without a hitch.
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WooooaaaaoooooaooOOhhh I am speaking to you from the other siiiiiiide...
The upgrade was a success! And pretty simple too. The biggest problem so far has been installing drivers for my network cards. 8 wasn't able to automatically install either the integrated ethernet card or the dodgy wifi card, so I had to do it manually. Getting the drivers onto the computer wasn't too hard with a laptop and thumb drive, but neither Gigabyte nor Trendnet have released Windows 8 drivers. So I had to find a way to install non-approved, unsigned drivers to even get onto the internet. Somehow it worked, I'm not really sure how. But it's done.
And I'm definitely installing an old-style start menu, so that I can easily access My Computer and the Control Panel at the very least.
Go to the bottom left corner and right click. A menu will show up with both File Explorer and Control Panel, among other things.
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WooooaaaaoooooaooOOhhh I am speaking to you from the other siiiiiiide...
The upgrade was a success! And pretty simple too. The biggest problem so far has been installing drivers for my network cards. 8 wasn't able to automatically install either the integrated ethernet card or the dodgy wifi card, so I had to do it manually. Getting the drivers onto the computer wasn't too hard with a laptop and thumb drive, but neither Gigabyte nor Trendnet have released Windows 8 drivers. So I had to find a way to install non-approved, unsigned drivers to even get onto the internet. Somehow it worked, I'm not really sure how. But it's done.
And I'm definitely installing an old-style start menu, so that I can easily access My Computer and the Control Panel at the very least.
Go to the bottom left corner and right click. A menu will show up with both File Explorer and Control Panel, among other things.
/hug.
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Question for anyone who has made the jump, it seems like a silly one to me but I figure I should probably make sure.
If I upgraded with an old license key from another computer, leaving that one with the old (XP) OS, keeping the Win8 copy on my main box, would either have problems with activation/validation/updates?
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It would violate your agreement.
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My father bought my mother a laptop that came with Windows 8 for xmas, they needed to google "how to shut down windows 8 computer". Whatever internet browser they were using didn't support tabs, and it took about as long for them to muddle through the first-run setup stuff as it would for an entire W7 installation. My mother isn't a tech person anymore by any means, but lulz. Just lulz.
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The more I read, the more it appears to be a badly thought of mess (for desktop users): http://www.infoworld.com/d/microsoft-windows/10-must-have-features-windows-9-208079
Didn't much like it myself as I tried it out. I prefer a no nonsense approach to computing and Windows 8 keeps putting nonsense (i.e. uneccessary/uneconomical actions) into my way when I tried to just get some work done on my desktop PC.
This has nothing to do with relearning or just getting used to it either... on a desktop with a mouse, stuff just takes longer with Windows 8 on a click by click basis. From my (admittedly limited) experience with it anyways.
A shame kinda... as I do like the new (clean) style. If Metro (or whatever it is called now) was purely optional (for tablet users) and the desktop was fully functional without any of the metro switching nonsense or the crippled control panel, then I would propably love it.
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So yeah, after using it a few days, I've decided that Metro can basically die in a fire. Who decided it would be a good idea to have EVERYTHING be a fullscreen app?
No I don't want my e-mail to be a full 1650x1080; I like to be able to open multiple e-mail tabs (and regular tabs) at the same time without being stuck in any single one. No I don't want Skype to be the only thing I see when I'm making a call; I frequently need to look at other things while I'm talking, and I want to be able to mute or end a call from the taskbar without switching back over.
It seems like Metro is taking over for the kind of pathetic sidebar thing from Vista, except that instead of just hanging out on the side of the screen doing it's thing, it takes over the whole screen and won't let you do anything else. Technically, you can alt-tab back and forth, but Metro takes a good second or two longer than it should to pop up (it should take 0 seconds).
And it was indeed too hard to figure out just how to shut down the first time.
Otherwise, no real complaints.
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WooooaaaaoooooaooOOhhh I am speaking to you from the other siiiiiiide...
The upgrade was a success! And pretty simple too. The biggest problem so far has been installing drivers for my network cards. 8 wasn't able to automatically install either the integrated ethernet card or the dodgy wifi card, so I had to do it manually. Getting the drivers onto the computer wasn't too hard with a laptop and thumb drive, but neither Gigabyte nor Trendnet have released Windows 8 drivers. So I had to find a way to install non-approved, unsigned drivers to even get onto the internet. Somehow it worked, I'm not really sure how. But it's done.
And I'm definitely installing an old-style start menu, so that I can easily access My Computer and the Control Panel at the very least.
There's a right-click menu on either the bottom left or right that has all of those functions easily accessible for you... hover your mouse.. I think it's the left side, it will say "Start", then right-click and you get the menu.
Eh, my brother has 8 and he says it's the bottom left.
EDIT: ninja'd, and I don't see a delete post button, even though no one has replied yet... :banghead:
EDIT2: I too had to Google how to shut down Windows 8 when I used my brother's laptop. :ick: