Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thaeris on January 17, 2013, 02:28:29 pm

Title: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Thaeris on January 17, 2013, 02:28:29 pm

We, as a small group of individuals who like making things, really ought to consider participating with the following:

http://www.x-plane.com/x-world/lawsuit/

...If you (a.) are eligible to participate, and (b.) despise legal injustices.

If you've never heard of X-Plane, it's a flight simulator that provides a simulation environment which can deliver highly realistic results for known aircraft and flight vehicles for which information is available, and quite accurate results for realistically built and defined aircraft that otherwise would only exist on paper. And it's made by a team that might just amount to three principal members (making HLP seem very substantial in the dev department). They've made a product that is used by both enthusiasts at home and professionals in industry, outlasted MS Flight Sim, and take a level of pride in their work that puts most other software companies to shame.

...And they're getting sued by patent trolls. Principally, the creator, Austin Meyer, is getting sued by a company that buys patents and then charges royalties to people who may make use of such technology. These companies don't make anything except money from those they victimize. They're ****ing scam artists.

If this infuriates you, and you wouldn't mind signing a petition, try clicking on the link above. I'm not sure that many signatures can be garnered by Feb. 15th, but one can at least try. If you inhabit Reddit or what have you, consider spreading this there if you please. This isn't intended to be spam, of course, but I think it relates a pertinent issue to us and anyone who may consider themselves indie developers.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Cyborg17 on January 17, 2013, 11:12:04 pm

I signed.  Sorry this is happening, dude. :/

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: headdie on January 18, 2013, 01:17:37 am

the bastards.  wish I could sign it mate

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Klaustrophobia on January 18, 2013, 02:06:43 am

not that it will do anything, but i signed it.  lawsuits make me sick.  every day i grow to hate lawyers more.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: SypheDMar on January 18, 2013, 02:15:21 am

This is ridiculous.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on January 18, 2013, 03:37:09 am

Signed. The level of patent trolling has grown to ridiculous and shameful levels. Our patent system is so ridiculously broken that it would need to be smashed into dust with a sledgehammer and rebuilt from the ground up before it could even be remotely useful in this day and age.

thisiswhywecanthavenicethings.jpg

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Kopachris on January 18, 2013, 04:21:54 am

Signed.  Already donated to help his defense when I found out about it last month.  Been using X-Plane for years--I'd hate for it to be destroyed by something as stupid as this.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: MP-Ryan on January 18, 2013, 09:34:29 am

Love to sign, but not American.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Crybertrance on January 18, 2013, 10:30:01 am

I would've signed...but I'm not eligible.. :(

I just want to say though, that the lawsuit is ****ing ridiculous...Hope those lawyers burn in hell! :hopping: :mad:

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Luis Dias on January 18, 2013, 11:24:24 am

JFC, where are the gun fanatics when you most need them? What a bunch of creeps. My whole sympathy.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: IronBeer on January 18, 2013, 11:59:20 am

Signed; I hope this does indeed amount to something.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: perihelion on January 18, 2013, 12:32:41 pm

Signed as well.  I don't have very high hopes, but we'll see.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on January 18, 2013, 01:10:15 pm

Signed. I probably know a handful of people I can pass this along to... (by a handful, I mean four.)

What's really sad is that someone needs to spread out and get a hundred thousand signatures, not just twenty five. Well, this sucks.

Spoiler:

I'm hoping not to go on an extreme tangent with this, but I better hope that the massed number of signatures against Westboro (which had about 430K sigs about labeling it as a hate group across three different petitions last I checked) and against Senator Feinstein (D-CA) (which had about 60K sigs for her to be banned from office across two) had nothing to do with the requirement increase...

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: headdie on January 18, 2013, 01:33:28 pm

Stuck a journal entry on my DeviantArt profile (http://headdie.deviantart.com/journal/Patent-Trolling-349171623)

Dont have many watchers but you never know

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: watsisname on January 18, 2013, 01:41:16 pm

This is the first WH petition I've actually signed.  I wish them the best of luck.  $1.5mil in defense fees for something like this, what the ****ing hell.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Aardwolf on January 18, 2013, 04:16:30 pm

Ditto

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: EvidenceOfFault on January 18, 2013, 05:42:04 pm

Well, the irony here is what part of the software they're being sued for:
The DRM.
I'm not sorry for them.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Nuke on January 18, 2013, 06:19:14 pm

not signing, staying off secret service watch list.

Quote from: EvidenceOfFault on January 18, 2013, 05:42:04 pm

Well, the irony here is what part of the software they're being sued for:
The DRM.
I'm not sorry for them.

this

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: perihelion on January 18, 2013, 06:34:41 pm

Oh Nuke.  Do you seriously believe you aren't already on half a dozen watch lists?   :p

I'm pretty sure I am, and I've a lot fewer reasons to be on them than you.  I also keep a much lower profile.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Dark RevenantX on January 18, 2013, 07:24:08 pm

Quote from: EvidenceOfFault on January 18, 2013, 05:42:04 pm

Well, the irony here is what part of the software they're being sued for:
The DRM.
I'm not sorry for them.

The DRM that comes built-in to almost every Android app there is.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: EvidenceOfFault on January 19, 2013, 05:42:24 am

Quote from: Dark RevenantX on January 18, 2013, 07:24:08 pm

Quote from: EvidenceOfFault on January 18, 2013, 05:42:04 pm

Well, the irony here is what part of the software they're being sued for:
The DRM.
I'm not sorry for them.

The DRM that comes built-in to almost every Android app there is.

Well, from their own statement it seems they were not forced to use the DRM, it was only suggested to them. It's less "we couldn't help it" and more "everyone was doing it", which is a much less compelling defense (to me, as well as a court, I suspect).

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: The E on January 19, 2013, 06:05:27 am

They weren't forced to use this. They used a solution recommended by Google, trusting that Google would have vetted the solution against patent trolling. As such, they had a reasonable expectation that they won't be sued.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: karajorma on January 19, 2013, 08:32:46 am

What gets me is why Google themselves haven't stepped in. Saying "If our development advice ****s you over, tough titty!" Sounds like the quickest way to create a bunch of new iPhone developers.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Aardwolf on January 19, 2013, 02:51:51 pm

The specifics of this case are largely irrelevant to the petition.

Now my question is, how would they legally define "patent troll"?

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: headdie on January 19, 2013, 03:52:33 pm

Quote from: Aardwolf on January 19, 2013, 02:51:51 pm

The specifics of this case are largely irrelevant to the petition.

Now my question is, how would they legally define "patent troll"?

tricky, but a good start would be to investigate if the patent holder has attempted to do something with the patent such as further research, prototyping, recruitment of persons with relevant skills or attempted to raise money through recognised means such as loans, investors, government grants etc.  Another would be to look at the history of the claim, is it for example on something which has been in use since before the patent was filed?

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Klaustrophobia on January 19, 2013, 05:26:02 pm

Well the first step would be to remove the ability to get rich off of lawsuits.  Patents are supposed to be for protection, not profit.  Patents should only be issued attached to actual production or development, and be non-transferable.  If the inventor can't or doesn't want to pursue production on his own, he can let someone else do it for him for royalties or something like that, but he can't sell the rights to do so to anyone else, and no one but him can ever sue for infringement.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Al-Rik on January 20, 2013, 09:31:41 am

Quote from: headdie on January 19, 2013, 03:52:33 pm

Another would be to look at the history of the claim, is it for example on something which has been in use since before the patent was filed?

You can't patent something what is already in use.
And that's the first way to fight a patent in court. But to fight it, you must have money.

If you file in an application for a patent, the national patent agency will publicate that application, giving anybody the chance to make calls of their on.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Thaeris on January 20, 2013, 03:10:18 pm

Thanks to everyone so far for, if not their support, their discussion on this matter.

As for DRM, as much as I hate it in general, my experience with Laminar Research's "DRM" is very, very ye olde-schoole. It means I put the DVD in the drive for the sim component of the program to run, which is just about the oldest form of DRM anyone can think of, and there are very simple ways around it if you have the space or the need. For a very small company, the only restrictions they have ever built into their programs in my experience have been the bare minimum to encourage individuals to buy their generally very good products rather than just take them. And software keys and what have you are still around as well - we hardly call those restrictive anymore...

As per the Android thing, I've never used an Android product. I have no idea how hard or easy it is to distribute that kind of software, nor at which level the DRM works. As I said or at least implied, I do understand how some individuals putting their livlihoods into their work may support some level of DRM, and that's OK. We're probably not talking about Ubisoft or EA levels of crap with DRM at that level, either.

What can be said has already been pointed out in the first post, where there is a company that doesn't really do anything except use litigation to make money off of individuals making a product. The code used by Laminar was apparently provided or endorsed by Google, who provides the Android OS. The world may be better off without DRM, but it's also way better off without companies that survive by scamming others to make their paychecks.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Cyborg17 on January 20, 2013, 06:53:11 pm

For what's going on, DRM is by far the lesser evil.  DRM is a producer trying to protect his rights to profit.  Patent Trolling is someone trying to make a profit off of someone else's work.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: karajorma on January 21, 2013, 02:39:43 am

I'm going to patent patent trolling. Anyone patent trolling will have to pay me money. Which I'll then give to the original victim and keep the rest for my trouble. :p

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: headdie on January 21, 2013, 02:48:19 am

Quote from: karajorma on January 21, 2013, 02:39:43 am

I'm going to patent patent trolling. Anyone patent trolling will have to pay me money. Which I'll then give to the original victim and keep the rest for my trouble. :p

:yes: time to fight fire with fire  :drevil:

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Klaustrophobia on January 21, 2013, 02:49:08 am

it's so crazy it just might work.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Kopachris on January 21, 2013, 04:15:52 am

Quote from: karajorma on January 21, 2013, 02:39:43 am

I'm going to patent patent trolling. Anyone patent trolling will have to pay me money. Which I'll then give to the original victim and keep the rest for my trouble. :p

I think that might actually work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_method_patent

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Luis Dias on January 21, 2013, 10:31:40 am

Quote from: karajorma on January 19, 2013, 08:32:46 am

What gets me is why Google themselves haven't stepped in. Saying "If our development advice ****s you over, tough titty!" Sounds like the quickest way to create a bunch of new iPhone developers.

Nailed it.

Title: Re: Hate Patent Trolls? Then Consider Signing This!
Post by: Scourge of Ages on January 21, 2013, 11:36:50 am

Quote from: karajorma on January 21, 2013, 02:39:43 am

I'm going to patent patent trolling. Anyone patent trolling will have to pay me money. Which I'll then give to the original victim and keep the rest for my trouble. :p

I'm sure the patent trolls already have that patented...