Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => The FreeSpace Port Upgrade => Topic started by: Black_Yoshi1230 on February 08, 2013, 10:30:01 pm
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At least the Amun is getting the respect it deserves, with the new, shiny HTL model recently released.
Amun = decent, large coolness. Osiris? Pah.
EDIT: Now that this topic is split and I got the unceremonious position of first post, I had to fit it with context.
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The lead designer of the Osiris was turned by the GTA and worked as a secret agent for the Terran military.
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Try intercepting with a Valk a wing of Orisises with Avenger turrets and improved AI, and then tell me it sucks. That thing is scary, I'm telling ya. Really scary.
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Try intercepting with a Valk a wing of Orisises with Avenger turrets and improved AI, and then tell me it sucks. That thing is scary, I'm telling ya. Really scary.
Fury AI makes it dangerous to attack two fighters at once. Attacking four bombers with turrets is going to be almost suicidal, regardless of how crappy the individual ships are.
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Try intercepting with a Valk a wing of Orisises with Avenger turrets and improved AI, and then tell me it sucks. That thing is scary, I'm telling ya. Really scary.
With shields or without? Because without shields they shouldn't even have Avengers.
Also the Amun also has two turrets.
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Shields ? You think a continuous salvo of hellishly accurate Avengers gives a **** about puny Valk shields ? :p
The Amun isn't better with its Banshees, but you meet the Osiris more often.
Fury AI makes it dangerous to attack two fighters at once. Attacking four bombers with turrets is going to be almost suicidal, regardless of how crappy the individual ships are.
Try attacking a wing of Artemis instead of a wing of Osiris. Or a wing of Boanerges. Hell, even a wing of Sekhmets. Those are pieces of cake because you can evade being in front of their guns. You can't evade being in the field of fire of Osiris or Amun turrets.
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Shields ? You think a continuous salvo of hellishly accurate Avengers gives a **** about puny Valk shields ? :p
The Amun isn't better with its Banshees, but you meet the Osiris more often.
Try attacking a wing of Artemis instead of a wing of Osiris. Or a wing of Boanerges. Hell, even a wing of Sekhmets. Those are pieces of cake because you can evade being in front of their guns. You can't evade being in the field of fire of Osiris or Amun turrets.
The Osiris doesn't have Avenger turrets, it has Prometheus or Prometheus R. I have a feeling you're better at FreeSpace than me, because a wing of Artemis with Fury AI would be quite dangerous to me (so long as they actually bothered to defend themselves).
The Amun could do exactly the same thing, and it carries far more bombs and armor.
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Shields ? You think a continuous salvo of hellishly accurate Avengers gives a **** about puny Valk shields ? :p
The Amun isn't better with its Banshees, but you meet the Osiris more often.
Try attacking a wing of Artemis instead of a wing of Osiris. Or a wing of Boanerges. Hell, even a wing of Sekhmets. Those are pieces of cake because you can evade being in front of their guns. You can't evade being in the field of fire of Osiris or Amun turrets.
The Osiris doesn't have Avenger turrets, it has Prometheus or Prometheus R. I have a feeling you're better at FreeSpace than me, because a wing of Artemis with Fury AI would be quite dangerous to me (so long as they actually bothered to defend themselves).
The Amun could do exactly the same thing, and it carries far more bombs and armor.
If an Amun actually turns to attack you directly it can do a hell of a lot more damage to you than an Osiris can.
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How would an Amun attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you.
What are you flying, a cruiser ?
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How would an Amun attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you.
What are you flying, a cruiser ?
:lol:
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How would an Amun attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you.
What are you flying, a cruiser ?
I do understand that you're not a native English speaker, however, there's a reason he put 'If' on the front of his sentence.
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How would an Amun attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you.
What are you flying, a cruiser ?
How would an Osiris attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you and overcome its terrible gun placement. The Amun is still pretty bad in that regard, but at least it has a better chance with four guns instead of two.
The Amun would point at you while you're attacking one of its wingmen and bury you under Prometheus fire and Furies.
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How would an Osiris attack you with its primaries, it'd need to outturn you and overcome its terrible gun placement.
My point is that it doesn't need to, because it has two turrets with excellent coverage.
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My point is that it doesn't need to, because it has two turrets with excellent coverage.
So what? It's still unlikely to survive an attack by even one interceptor. The Amun has worse coverage and handling, but also far more firepower, armor and shielding. It also has a smaller target profile, which gives it some measure of evasion to offset its terrible maneuverability.
Yes, a wing of Osirises with Fury turret AI is dangerous. As is a wing of Medusas, Ursas, Amuns, Seraphims, or Nephilims. This does not prevent the Osiris from being a piece of crap bomber with a deficient payload.
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I also forgot the Osiris can carry the UD-8 Kayser, but not the Maxim. Huh.
Back to the Amun, would it be able to stand up to snuff against Second War era craft like Deimoses and stuff?
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Better than the Osiris could.
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Split from HTL Amun discussion, here. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=81274.msg1672410#msg1672410)
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Gosh darn if people would be are jealous of the new amun, I'll just go and make a new shiny osiris! :p
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I'm not convinced an Amun is more dangerous than an Osiris against fighters. As far as I can tell, cover fire is important (which is why the Boanerges is so bad in the first place). And if an Osiris has better/more cover fire than an Amun, I can't imagine the latter to be better at even attacking other bombers.
And with the Trebuchet in production by FS2, I don't think Amuns stand a good chance of surviving the period.
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I preffer Osiris, because the gunpoints on Amun are so far from each other they miss a herc from 200m range :P I'd take sekkie/baka over one of these any time.
And seriously, did the turrets really kill anyone ever? IMHO if it ain't kayser turret or better, it does squat.
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You need to play with improved AI. Turrets don't do squat otherwise, but they become really OP when they can fire on their own and without artificial cooldown penalty.
EDIT: you want a better idea of what I'm talking about ? Think Isis, but faster, with shields and bombs. Now think a wing of them. There you go, Osiris with improved AI. Have fun assaulting that with anything less than a full friendly wing or long-range missiles. They basically run their own escort. Same for the Amun.
Medusa and Ursa are less problematic because they only have one turret that covers only half the ship. No exploitable dead angle on Osiris and Amun. All FS2 bombers are turretless, and are nothing more than interceptor fodder as long as you're flying anything more agile than a cruiser.
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You need to play with improved AI. Turrets don't do squat otherwise, but they become really OP when they can fire on their own and without artificial cooldown penalty.
EDIT: you want a better idea of what I'm talking about ? Think Isis, but faster, with shields and bombs. Now think a wing of them. There you go, Osiris with improved AI. Have fun assaulting that with anything less than a full friendly wing or long-range missiles. They basically run their own escort. Same for the Amun.
Medusa and Ursa are less problematic because they only have one turret that covers only half the ship. No exploitable dead angle on Osiris and Amun. All FS2 bombers are turretless, and are nothing more than interceptor fodder as long are you're flying anything more agile than a cruiser.
I'd have to agree with that. They both have good coverage (although the Osiris is somewhat better), and with enhanced AI a wing of them would be very dangerous.
I thought you were arguing that the Osiris is better than the Amun, but you never actually said that.
Wait, what was the point of this argument?
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The point was that the Osiris doesn't suck. You can argue that the Amun is better, but you can't argue that it isn't an effective design as long as you have an AI that can actually use the turrets. The Sekhmet is probably a better ship for the player, who is actually able to defend itself, but the Osiris is gonna give you more trouble in tight wings.
We had to nerf the bomber turrets in BtA, reducing rate of fire and giving them fov, just so they wouldn't be completely, utterly overpowered. And even after that, they will still run their own escort, and don't expect take them out alone and without damage even with a fully armed Herc.
Survivability-wise, Artemises and Boanerges are just ridiculous jokes compared to Osirises. They're just flying targets. Osiris is a flying gunboat.
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Wow, you had to nerf their turrets?
I think what we have here is a heavy bomber that poses little threat to capships but is very dangerous to fighters.
Perhaps the GTVA should take all the Osirises, replace their Cyclops with three banks of anti-fighter missiles, and use them as convoy and warship escorts?
EDIT: Now I know why retail AI nerfs bomber turrets so much.
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Well actually it poses more threat to capital ships than an Artemis does, because it has more chances to survive long enough to deliver the bombs. Which is the whole point of a bomber to begin with.
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Then I guess neither of them excel in that role. :p Never liked the Artemis anyway; its poor maneuverability and bad gun placement makes it a terrible dogfighter.
Seriously though, would the Osiris be useful as an escort ship? A wing of them armed with Kaysers or Prometheus S turrets would be very dangerous to fighters.
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Why not, whatever rocks your boat. Shouldn't be hard to whip up a quick test mission to see for yourself.
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Better yet, try that one mission from the Blackwater Ops demo (if you're using FS2-era assets). There are waves of Osiris bombers.
(If we had Prometheus S turrets or something akin to the Avenger, then I would quit complaining.)
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Not seeing how a 40, 40, 20 capacity and crap primary mount is any good, but ok I won't try to "start that again" (as if I had any idea I was and/or was trying to "start something").
Sekhmet or Bakha instead plz.
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Not seeing how a 40, 40, 20 capacity and crap primary mount is any good
You're right - those bits are not very good. However 2x turrets with upgraded AI == very good :)
As a human pilot, you probably do not want to fly an Osiris (for the reasons you mentioned, plus the poor manoeuvrability). But as a human pilot, you're also going to dread flying against a wing of Osiris.
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Not seeing how a 40, 40, 20 capacity and crap primary mount is any good, but ok I won't try to "start that again" (as if I had any idea I was and/or was trying to "start something").
Sekhmet or Bakha instead plz.
I don't see any problem with "starting that again" if "that" is a free space discussion on a freesoace discussion board. :P
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It was more about not start it again in the release thread. We have this thread here for that.
Bloodfleet, have you read the thread before posting ? It's not that long.
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Yeah I get it, you in a fighter going against a wing of them with improved ai and avenger/prom/kayser/whatever turrets is going to hurt. I guess I should say that I agree on that point. Perhaps then you should get your allies to help, usually you have allies yes? That or trebuchet, double tornado, tempest...
I take it I should have specified I am talking about having to fly one yourself?
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Well yeah, but flying bombers in general is quite unentertaining. And since the turrets are the biggest trouble, and that you don't control them, it's even less attractive as a player ship. I do prefer flying a Sekhmet myself.
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And I just wanted to add the Stheno...
But well, the Sekhmet should be the zod bomber of choice.