Hard Light Productions Forums

Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Nemesis6 on February 19, 2013, 10:56:58 am

Title: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Nemesis6 on February 19, 2013, 10:56:58 am
A lot of people are into immersion, and cockpits further that very much at least for me. The cockpits that are available are hackjobs at present, so I'm wondering if you guys here at the upgrade project have ever considered putting more effort into upgrading cockpit models? I saw a thread where hud indicators were showed to finally work within the cockpit; radar, target indicator and so on, so I figured I'd ask you guys' take on this.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Black Wolf on February 19, 2013, 11:04:04 am
Not being part of the FSU project, I can only give my opinion, but I'd remind you that a lot of people aren't all that into immersion, and that making custom cockpits for every single fighter would probably double the development time for new ships. Not exactly something I think many would consider the best use of skilled modder's time.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: mjn.mixael on February 19, 2013, 11:23:08 am
What BW said is a partial answer for FSU.

The one thing to know about FSU is that we don't mandate that artists work on any particular project. In fact, historically, the FSU team has been more like gatekeepers rather than content creators. Joe Schmoe community member has typically been the main content creator. This has changed somewhat more recently, but the contribution model is still the same.

FSU and non FSU artists alike work on whatever project they find interesting. All finish assets go through the same scrutinizing before being put into the main MediaVPs.. even models done by FSU artists. (But since we act as gatekeepers, we've just gotten very good at making sure our assets will be viable replacements from the get-go.)

What this means for this thread is that your question is somewhat misdirected. It's not up to FSU artists to upgrade everything about FS2, it's just up to us to organize and make it reliable. If you want cockpits for ships in FS2, you should ask the community as a whole (this includes FSU artists) to make cockpits, or make them yourself. Find someone who is interested in such a project to make it happen. This might be someone in FSU, it might not.

FSU isn't opposed to cockpit models, but to my knowledge, none of the current FSU artists are interested in spending time on such an effort.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Oddgrim on February 19, 2013, 11:37:59 am
Cockpits are a iffy prospect at best, little to gain for a lot more work (speaking off personal testing  and is partial the reason why the htl-Amun took so long.). As of now for example if you are going to use the experimental shadows plugin for FSO and the ship cockpit, you probably will not see anything or very litte, depending on angle to nearest light source and how enclosed the ship cockpit is. I theorised at the time in my mind if there was some way of lighting the area up the benefit would be fair to say insubstantial.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: General Battuta on February 19, 2013, 12:32:03 pm
I am all for a community project to build cockpits for those who are into them, but I have to get behind the consensus in this thread so far - they do not belong in the MVPs, even as an optional package.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 19, 2013, 12:37:12 pm
tl:dr : it's not up to FSU. Artists can do it if they wish, or they can not. As usual, all the work that ends up in the MVPs is strictly voluntary.

Or doesn't end up in the MVPs, although I doubt that's the heart of the problem here, the question seems more about creating the assets in the first place for people who enjoy cockpits, than their hypothetical integration in the MVPs.

I theorised at the time in my mind if there was some way of lighting the area up the benefit would be fair to say insubstantial.
Faint baked glowmap on the whole inside of the cockpit seems the simplest and best-looking solution. Not necessarily the least time-consuming mind you. (As a side note, if someone was gonna suggest it, my personal experience with glowpoint lighting as a light source source strikes me as inappropriate in this case, both performance-wise and (mostly) visually.)
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 19, 2013, 05:04:28 pm
Cockpits are a iffy prospect at best, little to gain for a lot more work (speaking off personal testing  and is partial the reason why the htl-Amun took so long.). As of now for example if you are going to use the experimental shadows plugin for FSO and the ship cockpit, you probably will not see anything or very litte, depending on angle to nearest light source and how enclosed the ship cockpit is. I theorised at the time in my mind if there was some way of lighting the area up the benefit would be fair to say insubstantial.

A good in-game cockpit is a separate model rendered around the eyepoint so shadows are not an issue. The show ship flag is the wrong way to do it.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: JCDNWarrior on February 19, 2013, 05:30:56 pm
I certainly want to support any artists and modellers from trying to make highly detailed and functional cockpits, metaldestroyer77's videos, Oculus Rift and Space Citizen are reasons why I'd really like to see more and more development there. Nonetheless as said by others in the thread it's going to have to be a very optional and independent addition so that those that don't want to use cockpits don't have to have them fully rendered on a ship.

The Cockpits: One Stop Shopping thread seems to be moving in that direction at any rate, so that's encouraging to see.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Dragon on February 19, 2013, 05:52:54 pm
I'd gladly use a custom external cockpit pack for FSO. Lack of cockpits was a major flaw of FS2 for me, pretty much all other space sims had some form of cockpit view (well, except WC4, but that didn't stick). I believe that such a pack would go a long way towards immersion in FS, especially now that we have RTT and nothing stops us from putting everything (except maybe the reticle, unless HUD is also modeled) on the actual displays.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on February 23, 2013, 07:08:35 am
how about this? only one cockpit for all ships so far, but could be a start i'd say
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3230/screen0022g.jpg)
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Dragon on February 23, 2013, 07:36:46 am
Directives could go above the radar, I think, and you could probably fit wingmen monitor on the far left panel and time on the far right one. It's a good start, sure.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on February 23, 2013, 08:00:54 am
all the empty spaces on the panels are filled with displays that are simply not visible at this point, like the enemy's shields on the left empty panel
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Reprobator on February 23, 2013, 11:27:33 am
Hey that's great!
Where can we download this more advenced version of the cockcpit hud?
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on February 23, 2013, 01:06:53 pm
give me a few more days, it will be included in my remake of the lightning marshal campaigns that are about to be released any day now
i will also release a idependent mod that includes the new cockpits then
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Reprobator on February 23, 2013, 01:14:36 pm
In this case, i'll give you your few more days !
^^
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: MetalDestroyer on February 26, 2013, 01:16:06 pm
Cockpits are a iffy prospect at best, little to gain for a lot more work (speaking off personal testing  and is partial the reason why the htl-Amun took so long.). As of now for example if you are going to use the experimental shadows plugin for FSO and the ship cockpit, you probably will not see anything or very litte, depending on angle to nearest light source and how enclosed the ship cockpit is. I theorised at the time in my mind if there was some way of lighting the area up the benefit would be fair to say insubstantial.

A good in-game cockpit is a separate model rendered around the eyepoint so shadows are not an issue. The show ship flag is the wrong way to do it.

Not totally agree. Sure with separate model we can have much more poly, much more details etc... but you lose your ship awareness. I mean, when you open fire, you won't see your laser coming out from your ship cannon.  Your laser will be desynchronize with the main ship models. I don't know how to explain that, but I wish you could picture it. :)

If you look to Steve-O fighters, despite the low texture resolution and the low poly, the integrated cockpit with the show ship flag give some pretty good result.
Here a video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp12YViGsV4&feature=player_detailpage&list=UUBYPfRlHRh38bHVykagnqrw#t=164s

 
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on February 26, 2013, 03:32:19 pm
the guns are a non issue, they would look almost exactly the same if a seperate cockpit would be used. what makes this video so great is track IR, you wouldn't notice any difference beyond some very very minor ones, if this was a cockpit model and not show ship

the only thing you need is a really well made and !ship specific! cockpit model
would you be to use one of those, you would also see for example the ships wings, becaue they would be part of the cockpit model if they can be seen from the cockpit of that ship and the cockpit is well made
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on March 04, 2013, 06:57:34 pm
have been playing around a bit more:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img811/259/screen0030.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img255/6690/screen0029.jpg)
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Venicius on March 05, 2013, 11:55:30 am
Those look really good!
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Al-Rik on March 05, 2013, 05:25:37 pm
Those look really good!

I agree. What .exe did you use, the one from Diaspora ? And have you increased the resolution of the cockpit texture ?
IMHO it looks much better than before.

While adjusting the HUD to the generic cockpit I have runned in some problems with FS-Port (because of the changed HUD Gauges and the different names of FS1 Ships), so two version of the mod are needed, one version for FS2 and an other for the FS-Port.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Silver83 on March 16, 2013, 02:26:15 pm
Is this still being worked on? Having bought a TrackIR myself it is very...strange...flying without a cockpit.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Reprobator on March 17, 2013, 08:58:22 am
have been playing around a bit more:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img811/259/screen0030.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img255/6690/screen0029.jpg)

Wunderbar! I'm pretty impatient :p
Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Mobius on March 18, 2013, 10:26:55 am
That's a notable development since the last time I heard of attempts to combine cockpits and HUDs. :D

It's also a good chance to add many other HUD bars, gauges, whatever which would normally be unpractical and chaotic if used with the classic HUD, but become handier when you have a realistic HUD like this. You may, for example, monitor the distance from your spacecraft to all ships in the escort list without filling the screen with numbers.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on March 20, 2013, 11:51:23 am
aaaaaaaaaaand done!
the cockpits are quite complete now
i will release them seperately sometime in the next weeks, but if someone wants to have them at once you can download this: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84092.0
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Silver83 on March 21, 2013, 04:02:29 pm
GREAT! I'm looking forward to this!
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 02, 2013, 12:58:28 am
Wait, I noticed that all screenshots are widescreen (they are also awesome, but that's quite obvious I think ;) ), and I read in another topic (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84092.msg1679684#msg1679684) that there are issues for the people who are stuck with 4:3 and 5:4 monitors like me.
Are those issues going to be addressed sooner or later?
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on April 02, 2013, 05:25:43 am
right now it works pretty well for 4:3 too, there is that problem with the orders gauge, but i can assure you, that i will fix that too
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 02, 2013, 08:24:41 am
I asked precisely because of the gauges, I get to be interrupted often when I play and sometimes the interruptions are long enough to make me forget the orders.  :banghead:
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on April 02, 2013, 09:18:22 am
just to be clear: its not the directives gauge, telling you your orders, that doesn't show up, but the one that shows what your wingmens orders are
as you can see on the screens above, the directives gauge is not even mapped to the cockpit :)
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 02, 2013, 05:46:01 pm
just to be clear: its not the directives gauge, telling you your orders, that doesn't show up, but the one that shows what your wingmens orders are
as you can see on the screens above, the directives gauge is not even mapped to the cockpit :)
Hmm, I'll have something to try out when I'll finally be able to clear some space on my hard drive then.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: AndrewofDoom on April 05, 2013, 05:26:29 pm
tbh that cockpit is pretty ****ty if you happen to not have TrackIR and only serves to block the view. You know, someone like me who doesn't have money or time to throw all over.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on April 05, 2013, 07:26:53 pm
for the record: those screens have been taken with padlock view, i don't have TrackIR myself

i've managed to have it block less view by moving the "players head" a bit backwards, the next version will be better, still not perfect though
anyway, the cockpit blocking the view is, if nothing else, realistic, and i think that is adding a large amount of atmosphere
just look at this f16 cockpit for reference, THAT is blocked view:
(http://photos.vaxlan.net/d/27394-2/F4AF-F16Cockpit.jpg)
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: MatthTheGeek on April 06, 2013, 03:53:57 pm
So what, just because it's worse somewhere else, makes it automatically ok for it to be bad here ?
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: General Battuta on April 06, 2013, 08:31:15 pm
I played and enjoyed a ****load of that game, but I would never want that in FSO. It's not necessary to and actively obstructs the FS2 gameplay model.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Parias on April 07, 2013, 02:44:33 pm
This is really cool - I've always loved 3D cockpits and thoroughly enjoy the immersion they add. Thanks for the work on this.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Lorric on April 07, 2013, 02:56:46 pm
Cockpits need to be optional. I don't like cockpits. I want the screen clear, a cockpit is just an obstacle to me. But I know some people do like cockpits. As long as there is a choice, all will be well.

Personally, I'd like to be able to fly third person best of all, but the hud doesn't work properly for it. I can't remember why exactly, it's a long time since I tried it, but I know it didn't work right flying third person.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on April 07, 2013, 03:10:18 pm
Cockpits need to be optional. I don't like cockpits. I want the screen clear, a cockpit is just an obstacle to me. But I know some people do like cockpits. As long as there is a choice, all will be well.

Personally, I'd like to be able to fly third person best of all, but the hud doesn't work properly for it. I can't remember why exactly, it's a long time since I tried it, but I know it didn't work right flying third person.
the center reticle isn't where it should be in 3rd person, it's slightly above (or below?) the position it should be in

you're welcome parias
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Lorric on April 07, 2013, 03:18:25 pm
Cockpits need to be optional. I don't like cockpits. I want the screen clear, a cockpit is just an obstacle to me. But I know some people do like cockpits. As long as there is a choice, all will be well.

Personally, I'd like to be able to fly third person best of all, but the hud doesn't work properly for it. I can't remember why exactly, it's a long time since I tried it, but I know it didn't work right flying third person.
the center reticle isn't where it should be in 3rd person, it's slightly above (or below?) the position it should be in

you're welcome parias

I'm not entirely sure, but now that you mention it, I think the problems were always when I had to put the nose down.
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: fightermedic on April 08, 2013, 01:11:00 pm
i think i remembered that wrong, it is the leadsight indicator that doesn't take the different camera angle into account, not the center reticle
gotte check this...
Title: Re: Cockpits and their importance
Post by: Silver83 on April 11, 2013, 05:25:00 pm
So, did you release your cockpit somewhere? I really wanna play the stock campaign with it.