Hard Light Productions Forums
Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: headdie on February 22, 2013, 02:51:16 pm
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re: this IRC chat
20:13 polpolion man
20:13 polpolion I still have no idea where anything is in this new layout
20:14 polpolion anyone remember the stink everyone made when they changed "the pub" to "general discussion"?
20:14 MatthTheGeek should have named it "the trash"
20:15 headdie personally my only issue is that FS modding should be higher up the list buts thats is, and as for the pub that was before my time ;P
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20:33 Fury` board layout is confusing as hell
20:34 Fury` I stick with "show unread posts since last visit"
20:35 headdie thats what I always do anyway but when I need to find something old the main board is usually my first stop
20:38 Fury` in those occasions I just use ctrl + f
20:38 Fury` I'll be damned if I could find the right board otherwise
I had a thought, would a quick navigation drop list of the items on the main board hyperlinked be possible to help users navigate to the section of the boards they want be feasible/a good idea?
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I think those guys are wusses...it took me all of a week to get used to the new setup. :p
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I think those guys are wusses...it took me all of a week to get used to the new setup. :p
Truth
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I'm not sure that a navigation drop would be feasible, considering how slowly Sandwich is improving the theme. :)
Now that the forums have been organized this way for some period of time, I think it's quite appropriate to assess how successful, or not, the new organization is. I have found it sub-optimal, but I can't really put my finger on why. It's useful to hear feedback from other people. I'd be interested in hearing whether anyone can suggest specific things that they dislike about the new layout or that they would change.
Also, topic renamed.
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I think those guys are wusses...it took me all of a week to get used to the new setup. :p
Truth
What they said. I just read all the boards that interest me, and it really doesn't matter (to me) in which order they're placed.
Now that the forums have been organized this way for some period of time, I think it's quite appropriate to assess how successful, or not, the new organization is. I have found it sub-optimal, but I can't really put my finger on why. It's useful to hear feedback from other people. I'd be interested in hearing whether anyone can suggest specific things that they dislike about the new layout or that they would change.
Two things come to mind:
- a rather inhomogeneous distribution of the, uh 'sections' on the front page - the FS mods list is huge now, while there's several other sections with just a couple boards. The old layout was more equally distributed (IIRC).
- The mod boards, with usually little activity, at the top of the forum - while the (usually) more active SCP/modding boards require scrolling down.
Like I said, I'm not complaining about them, but I could see either of these leading to a perception of suboptimality.
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More than index layout, I'd love to see more efficient use of horizontal space in the era of widescreen displays. I hate how much vertical space is used up before even first board is shown.
In addition, if you get rid of number of posts and topics and last post by information on the index, you can use that horizontal space to display more relevant information, like moderators, board description and child boards. This in turn frees up vertical space and shortens the index listing considerably. I'm sure there would be more clever ways to change index to make better use of horizontal space.
Also, someone please get rid of that eyesore of blue news. It totally destroys look of the forums and takes up way too much space. There's plenty of horizontal space available to right of "Hello <Name>" box. Move news or highlights there to free up vertical space. In addition, it very much looks like the HLP logo at top left is taking up more space than the "Hello <Name" box, again wasting vertical space.
Bottom line? Compact! Compact! Compact! Less scrolling down and up, thank you very much. After that, you can start mucking with index layout again, preferably in way that uses less space. The longer the index is, more tiresome it is to browse through it, no matter how boards in the index are ordered.
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The "Modding, Mission Design and Coding" section should be immediately below Freespace. It applies to all the standalone games, but presently, finding the general modding board means scrolling past the Diaspora modding board, but hell, even past the Mech Commander board. First and foremost, we're a FS modding board. Therefore, FS modding ought to be among the easiest things to find, IMO. At the moment, it's really, really not.
Unlike Fury, I'm not to worried about vertical space and scrolling, although I wouldn;t mind seeing the archived forums being compressed somewhat. Possibly reduced to a list of links rather than full forum information.
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The "Modding, Mission Design and Coding" section should be immediately below Freespace. It applies to all the standalone games, but presently, finding the general modding board means scrolling past the Diaspora modding board, but hell, even past the Mech Commander board. First and foremost, we're a FS modding board. Therefore, FS modding ought to be among the easiest things to find, IMO. At the moment, it's really, really not.
Same here
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Current layout in a nutshell:
- Announcements
- Freespace discussion
- Freespace Mods, missions and campaigns
- Games that aren't quite freespace
- Diaspora, which is too big to be in the above category
- Mods that have nothing to do with freespace
- Freespace modding, missioning, and campaigning again
- random things that don't quite fit anywhere else
- lol more freespace mods
- mods that don't quite fit anywhere else, despite already having a section for "mods for other games"
- off topic
This layout makes zero sense to me. What's wrong with having all the subforums for mods next to each other?
And more out of curiosity than complaint why were FS SCP and FSU moved to separate sections?
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Also, for reference, the old layout in a nutshell. You can view it for comparison on archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20120215040056/http://www.hard-light.net/forums).
- Announcements
- FreeSpace discussion and modding (Gen FS, FS Mod, FRED, etc.)
- Community Projects (SCP, FSUP, FSWiki, etc.)
- Hosted Projects - Released
- Hosted Projects - Unreleased
- Hosted Projects - Non-FS
- Off-Topic
- Site Management
- Archived
I liked this layout because you could quickly zero in on first the general category and then the specific board you were looking for. And if you weren't interested in a particular area -- for instance, unreleased projects -- you could collapse that category and completely ignore its boards.
Also, I would prefer a forum layout organized for the needs of regular modders, project members, and posters, because those are the people who use HLP most often. New members don't visit nearly as often and don't need to access important boards on a regular basis.
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The idea behind the move was basically to make the boards lay out everything we've produced for new people. I'd be willing to change formats again if we go ahead with the oft-mentioned Newbie forum which would basically do much the same thing but which no one has been willing to create or maintain in the past.
I hate the idea of going back to the whole Community Projects section though, I think the whole Modding and Coding section makes a hell of a lot more sense.
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Well, I view the FreeSpace Support forum as almost like a newbie forum, and we have no problem getting people to moderate that. Though that actually has a purpose, and a forum with nothing but "Hello, I'm new here" and "Welcome" threads might get boring. Still, if you feel strongly about it, I wouldn't mind giving it a trial run. We could ask the Grognards to nominate candidates for two moderators.
I happen to think Community Projects was one of the highlights of the old layout, as it made a lot of sense. We had these wide-ranging projects -- SCP, FSUP, the wiki, etc. -- all of which had similar goals (generate content for the benefit of the whole community), and all of which had similar atmospheres. These were contrasted with Hosted Projects, which are generally more secretive and whose goals aligned more with a particular leader's personal story or vision rather than a crowd-sourced consensus. It made sense to group the two communities into appropriate groups.
The Modding and Coding category is actually a pretty reasonable section. What I have a problem with is more the scattering of the old Community Projects boards far and wide. The current Community Projects category works, but it's merely a subset of its former self. The aspect that frustrates me the most is having the Missions and Campaigns and two Projects boards lumped in with all of the completed Hosted Projects.
I'd like to try out this arrangement:
1) Move Missions and Campaigns and FSCRP into the FreeSpace category. Then move FSUP back to the Community Projects category. That will restore the old Hosted Projects - Released to its former state.
2) Reorder the categories as follows:
--Announcements
--FreeSpace
--Modding, Mission Design, and Coding
--Community Projects
--Hosted Projects - Released
--Diaspora
--Full Games
--Mods for Other Games
--Hosted Projects - WIP
--Other Mods - WIP
--etc.
This will leave the SCP as the only community project that isn't in "Community Projects", which irks me, but I won't rule out further tweaks to the layout.
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I like your idea. I never liked the current layout. Your idea is much more logical.
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The problem is that the layout you have is based on us still being a Freespace community. We're not. We haven't been for quite some time.
We have lots of users who barely play FS2 because they're here for Diaspora or TBP (or even just to chat). This is just going to increase as time goes on and we start getting people here for Fringespace, FotG or WoD's upcoming standalone. And if you're not here for Freespace, then the mediaVPs are a community project which is largely pointless for you.
I'd suggest we move all the FSUP, FSCRP, Missions and Campaigns AND all the released FS2 mods into the Freespace section. That way if you don't care about FS you can skip the lot. I don't see the point in having a Freespace section and then a more Freespace section. Especially as in the layout suggested we have a large number of boards separating them. Instead the new order would be
--Announcements
--Newbie Forum (whatever we call it)
--Modding, Mission Design, and Coding (Let's move this back up to near the top as HLP's main focus)
--Community Projects
--FreeSpace
--Diaspora
--Other Full Games
--Mods for Other Games
--Hosted Projects - WIP
--Other Mods - WIP
--etc.
That's a much more compact layout and it ensures that the sections we have are much more relevant. You can see at a glance what games things are for and you don't get stupid things like people trying to install the mediaVPs on TBP cause it's much more obvious that they're Freespace related.
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I'm a bit unclear on the purpose of the Newbie forum. Having a logical place for fundamental tutorials (such as how to install FSO) might be nice, though, and I guess there could be a stickied thread with jumping off points to other places on the site (e.g., "want to learn how to make your missions? go here").
Otherwise I'm inclined to agree that
a forum with nothing but "Hello, I'm new here" and "Welcome" threads might get boring.
I guess you could say that currently, Support and Gen FS jointly share newbie handling, given that the install instructions and new people thread are in Gen FS.
The problem is that the layout you have is based on us still being a Freespace community. We're not. We haven't been for quite some time.
We have lots of users who barely play FS2 because they're here for Diaspora or TBP (or even just to chat). This is just going to increase as time goes on and we start getting people here for Fringespace, FotG or WoD's upcoming standalone. And if you're not here for Freespace, then the mediaVPs are a community project which is largely pointless for you.
I'd suggest we move all the FSUP, FSCRP, Missions and Campaigns AND all the released FS2 mods into the Freespace section. That way if you don't care about FS you can skip the lot. I don't see the point in having a Freespace section and then a more Freespace section. Especially as in the layout suggested we have a large number of boards separating them. Instead the new order would be
--Announcements
--Newbie Forum (whatever we call it)
--Modding, Mission Design, and Coding (Let's move this back up to near the top as HLP's main focus)
--Community Projects
--FreeSpace
--Diaspora
--Other Full Games
--Mods for Other Games
--Hosted Projects - WIP
--Other Mods - WIP
--etc.
That's a much more compact layout and it ensures that the sections we have are much more relevant. You can see at a glance what games things are for and you don't get stupid things like people trying to install the mediaVPs on TBP cause it's much more obvious that they're Freespace related.
This makes sense to me. Although the support forum should be easy to find, which it might not be if it's in the middle of the FreeSpace section.
BTW, why is "Fan Fiction and Art" part of Community Projects and not Off-Topic Discussion? Seems to me like it should come right after Programming.
Also, after the boards are rearranged, could restructuring the Tools board (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=79887.0) be looked into?
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Newbie forums are inherently related to the topic/game the user came to HLP looking for, such as diaspora fans will likely benefit from getting a newbie forum about just diaspora, while FS fans will be interested in different things.
For that specific task you have two options that I can think of:
1) Start a newbie forum, with all the general stuff (HLP jargon, forum rules, etc) and different subsections for every possible profile a newbie user might have (diaspora, FS, BP, Babylon, etc) included on this very board.
2) Or you add newbie boards covering specific needs of each user on their respective subforums (diaspora, fs, bla bla bla) and then add the newbie forum upwards just as the first option but with links to these boards.
I'd recommend naming these forums as I said before, "getting started". It's only natural to look there first for everyone.
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For me the forum would basically be a quick place to get a new user up to speed on HLP, FS2_Open and how things work around here. We'd want to have threads covering the basics but even if that consists completely of links to the relevant articles on the wiki it would still be better than what we have now.
The problem is that right now we have lots of newbies wonder in and get completely lost about how to install FS2_Open or what campaigns to download, etc. That's not really a good entry point to the community.
The old layout made that worse. We have the missions and campaigns forum and then bizarrely we have the hosted projects (which are pretty much all mods for Freespace jumbled in with TCs which aren't) and then have FSUP in yet another group with FSO which is what you need to make them all work.
Put yourself in the mindset of someone new to HLP and try to figure out how long it would take you to find all the stuff you need.
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Wrong argument here. I was new once and it took me 10 min tops to have everything set up correctly, and that was 2 and a half years ago.
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For you. Are you seriously trying to tell me that new users aren't getting lost?
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This sight is pretty poor for getting new people sorted out. I had a problem just finding a link to an installer (which was broken) when I joined.
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Of course you had a problem finding the installer, because it is broken and hence we're not pointing people to it anymore. You shouldn't have been looking for it in the first place.
For you. Are you seriously trying to tell me that new users aren't getting lost?
What I'm saying is that you're making a lot of assumptions on what is and isn't confusing newbies that aren't necessarily accurate. Unfortunately, none of us here are newbies anymore so we have little to base ourselves on.
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Of course you had a problem finding the installer, because it is broken and hence we're not pointing people to it anymore. You shouldn't have been looking for it in the first place.
... And yet being a newbie I was. Go figure. And what's the alternative to a broken installer that's clearly being offered to new members?
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This, stickied on top of the first board. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=78710.0)
In my opinion, what we should do is, go ahead with the "newbie forum" or whatever we want to call it, and one of the first thread there being "what do you think about the current forum layout and what has confused you the most when you joined". It is obvious no newbies are coming to look at this thread and we need their reactions, not those of veteran members who have all figured out.
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This, stickied on top of the first board. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=78710.0)
Except it's not the first post (there are 5 other posts above it), nor on the first board. Nor does it help someone who came here cause he'd heard of a BSG or B5 game hosted here.
On top of that there is a thread above it called "Official new people thread!". Call me strange but that might be where I'd go first. Especially if I don't know what the name of the upgrade to Freespace is called. Especially if like wistler, I've heard that there is an automatic installer.
In my opinion, what we should do is, go ahead with the "newbie forum" or whatever we want to call it, and one of the first thread there being "what do you think about the current forum layout and what has confused you the most when you joined". It is obvious no newbies are coming to look at this thread and we need their reactions, not those of veteran members who have all figured out.
I can see that possibly being helpful. That said you can get a lot of that kind of information just from seeing where people start asking for help. And I've seen tons of people simply asking how to install FS2_Open.
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Perhaps instead of a newbie forum, we link to that topic (or something similar - possibly an open one where people can ask for help on specific steps if they need it) from the HLP main page and from a prominent spot on the forums (maybe directly above the highlights)?
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I don't think it's just that topic they need though.
Probably the most asked question I see from newbies is "Which mod should I play first?"
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How about actually asking people who are not directly associated with these forums how they see the current board layout and what would make more sense in their eyes? I'm sure some of you people know folks who you can ask. Otherwise this isn't getting anywhere.
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I don't think it's just that topic they need though.
Probably the most asked question I see from newbies is "Which mod should I play first?"
This (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=80688.0) is an excellent guide to answering that question by Battuta. Sadly, it's as yet unfinished, but already contains tons of good information. Maybe we could use this as a starting point of some sort?
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There's loads of helpful information you could have for new people. A link to the best place to find/instal BSG, B5, BP. I link to Battuta's campaign thread. How to properly set up a new mod in the FS file. A link to FRED Academy and where get help with all the different problems you could have, a little explanation on what and how launchers, media VP and so forth work work.
That sort of thing can go along way to making the forums less daunting.
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The problem is that the layout you have is based on us still being a Freespace community. We're not. We haven't been for quite some time.
We have lots of users who barely play FS2 because they're here for Diaspora or TBP (or even just to chat). This is just going to increase as time goes on and we start getting people here for Fringespace, FotG or WoD's upcoming standalone. And if you're not here for Freespace, then the mediaVPs are a community project which is largely pointless for you.
I'd like to see your criteria for how you determine we are "not a Freespace community". Because we are. We still talk about FreeSpace, we still mod for FreeSpace, we still have hosted projects for FreeSpace. And the majority of our hosted projects are FreeSpace related. Therefore FreeSpace should be the focus.
I'd suggest we move all the FSUP, FSCRP, Missions and Campaigns AND all the released FS2 mods into the Freespace section. That way if you don't care about FS you can skip the lot. I don't see the point in having a Freespace section and then a more Freespace section.
This doesn't make sense. First of all, if someone wanted to skip over sections containing FreeSpace he can skip over (or collapse) two or more categories just as easily as one. Second of all, having too many unrelated boards in the same section makes it harder for a person who is interested in FreeSpace to find what he's looking for.
Put yourself in the mindset of someone new to HLP and try to figure out how long it would take you to find all the stuff you need.
When I was new to HLP, I lurked for three months before making my first post. During that time, I found what I needed by searching for it. Many other newbies have followed the same process.
Now that said, I'm not against the idea of a newbie forum (see my thread in Site Feedback). It's a different question than the forum layout though.
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Wrong argument here. I was new once and it took me 10 min tops to have everything set up correctly, and that was 2 and a half years ago.
Matth, what is your username? Just saying. :P :rolleyes:
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I'd like to see your criteria for how you determine we are "not a Freespace community". Because we are. We still talk about FreeSpace
We have quite a few users who have never played Freespace. That alone should tell you we aren't a Freespace community any more. What we are is an FS2_Open community. And the boards should reflect that.
we still mod for FreeSpace
That fact that a lot of people are modding for TBP or WCS is one of the main reasons I moved the modding and FREDding boards to the same section as coding. A lot of people aren't touching Freespace and shouldn't be excluded from the process. Hell, just look at the Celebration of Freespace thread and you'll see that a lot of people are celebrating other universes.
And the majority of our hosted projects are FreeSpace related. Therefore FreeSpace should be the focus.
I'm not saying Freespace isn't important. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be the only focus. And right now it is. I think there's something wrong when we keep having to point out that the Freespace Wiki isn't just about Freespace. Or that you can only join a certain community project if you're willing to pay $10.
This doesn't make sense. First of all, if someone wanted to skip over sections containing FreeSpace he can skip over (or collapse) two or more categories just as easily as one. Second of all, having too many unrelated boards in the same section makes it harder for a person who is interested in FreeSpace to find what he's looking for.
How are those boards unrelated though? Almost all of them are mods for Freespace (including FSUP). I think it says something about how disorganised the layout you want is, when the Blue Planet and Blue Planet Multiplayer boards would still be in completely different sections. And while I think the SCP board should stay in the coding section, I still think it's silly to have all the Freespace mods in one section, and then have the media VPs that are quite often a requirement in a completely different one. FSUP is basically a Freespace mod. Why is it separate from the other mods?
I'm not completely against having a Freespace and then a Freespace mods section. It's just that I can't wrap my head round the logic of having FSUP, an integral part of the Freespace Experience (TM :p) in a third section just because it happens to be a community project. Hell, have a Freespace and then Freespace mods section and stick FSUP in the Freespace section directly below Gen FS if need be.
When I was new to HLP, I lurked for three months before making my first post. During that time, I found what I needed by searching for it. Many other newbies have followed the same process.
I know, I did much the same thing. But many newbies don't. Just cause that worked for you doesn't mean it works for everyone else.
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I think it says something about how disorganised the layout you want is, when the Blue Planet and Blue Planet Multiplayer boards would still be in completely different sections.
Wrong example. BP Multi is dead, it probably should be in the Archived Boards by now.
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We have quite a few users who have never played Freespace. That alone should tell you we aren't a Freespace community any more. What we are is an FS2_Open community. And the boards should reflect that.
There's a difference between "aren't at all" and "aren't exclusively". FreeSpace is a large part (in fact, the majority) of our community, even though we add other stuff too. By your selection of points you seem to be arguing that we "aren't exclusively" FreeSpace, but the language you're using has more of the "aren't at all" flavor.
we still mod for FreeSpace
That fact that a lot of people are modding for TBP or WCS is one of the main reasons I moved the modding and FREDding boards to the same section as coding. A lot of people aren't touching Freespace and shouldn't be excluded from the process. Hell, just look at the Celebration of Freespace thread and you'll see that a lot of people are celebrating other universes.
Fine, and you should notice that I said that category is "actually a pretty reasonable section".
And the majority of our hosted projects are FreeSpace related. Therefore FreeSpace should be the focus.
I'm not saying Freespace isn't important. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be the only focus. And right now it is. I think there's something wrong when we keep having to point out that the Freespace Wiki isn't just about Freespace. Or that you can only join a certain community project if you're willing to pay $10.
Of course it's not the only "focus", if by focus you mean an area of interest. I used the word "focus" as in a "primary focus" sense. If we have several areas of interest, the principal, i.e. first, i.e. most important area is FreeSpace. That's why it's on top. After that comes the other universes, and then finally are the off-topic and support areas.
How are those boards unrelated though? Almost all of them are mods for Freespace (including FSUP). I think it says something about how disorganised the layout you want is, when the Blue Planet and Blue Planet Multiplayer boards would still be in completely different sections. And while I think the SCP board should stay in the coding section, I still think it's silly to have all the Freespace mods in one section, and then have the media VPs that are quite often a requirement in a completely different one. FSUP is basically a Freespace mod. Why is it separate from the other mods?
You're not making a distinction between "related in any way" and "related in terms of organization". Obviously all of the FreeSpace boards are related in that they deal with FreeSpace. But there are differences between story, modding, enhancement, and expansion. That's why it's useful to add additional category breakdowns. This is mainly needed because of the number of boards we have; if we go back to early HLP where all we had were "General Discussion", "General FreeSpace", "FreeSpace Modding", and hosted projects, then we could get away with fewer categories.
Anyway, I'm going to tweak the forum layout based on this discussion. We'll see how this one works for a short while, and then we can throw sticks at it if we need to.
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It's like musical board layout around here... Old layout, Kara's layout.. now Goober's layout.. likely with another layout change on the way. *le sigh* Couldn't we have talked it out and agreed on something before moving everything around multiple times?
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It's like musical board layout around here... Old layout, Kara's layout.. now Goober's layout.. likely with another layout change on the way. *le sigh* Couldn't we have talked it out and agreed on something before moving everything around multiple times?
Is it my turn now?
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Honestly I'm not even too concerned over what's placed where. I just scroll down the index and open whatever comes up red in new tabs. :p
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It's like musical board layout around here... Old layout, Kara's layout.. now Goober's layout.. likely with another layout change on the way. *le sigh* Couldn't we have talked it out and agreed on something before moving everything around multiple times?
I did check before I moved stuff around. I didn't see any posts against it. That said, I could have checked more extensively.
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Honestly I'm not even too concerned over what's placed where. I just scroll down the index and open whatever comes up red in new tabs. :p
Have you heard this little gem called "Show Unread posts since your last visit" and "Show new replies to your posts"?
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Yes, but I'd rather have more control over what I'm reading. If I don't really feel like perusing a certain folder one day, I can just skip past it.
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Same here. I don't want ****ty GenDisc posts to come up in what I want to read, thankyouverymuch.
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Just put GenDisc on your "ignore boards" list :)