Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Meatball on March 02, 2013, 04:33:26 pm
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*CONTAINS SPOILERS*
*DON'T READ IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED ANY OF THE BLUE PLANET CAMPAIGNS*
*CONTAINS SPOILERS*
I wanted to share my opinions and thoughts on story, gameplay, the missions and so forth...
Starting with the UNBELIEVABLE well-written Story.
AMAZING STORY! I can't really find words for how great the story line is on Blue Planet. Who wrote the story? The amazing thing is it continues of from where Freespace 2 left off. It feels like I'm playing Freespace 3.
I find it hard to believe that it would only be.. Like "How it could have continued".. There has to be a whole bunch of you writing the story. You have obviously analyzed the Freespace Universe well, and probably through other means then just the released games. I would love some feedback on this if you could tell me more about it! Have you spoken to the creators and developers of Freespace? I really wanna know!
I'm not really going to go into detail with this. It's so well done and well executed in the game. The story and how well made the campaign is overall is strong enough to just grab my emotions with it.
It's a Masterpiece. I think it's really amazing. Very good job and I can't thank you enough for the experience.
GAMEPLAY:
(I played on Insane difficulty throughout War in Heaven 2: Act 3)
Pros:
New ships
Well improved missions. Some might think they are to complicated, I think they are great! Very complex missions and because the story was so great and I saw that the mission was going to be big, I read through the whole briefing.
New Weapons, the Shotgun model is great.
Stealth Fighters. With GLIDE, omg I love that.
Good execution throughout the mission.
Creative Missions. Like the Tower Defense one. It was a nice creative mission, but 1 mission is all it should ever be. It didn't feel like the Freespace Universe at all in that mission.
Dreamscape Missions. I guess this is an alternative to talk among people aboard the ship? Very creative.
Other Dream Missions. Totally FREAK me out man. Especially the last one when I enter Laportes brain. I cannot help but wonder what would happen if I failed or answered differently. (Someone please tell me what happens? :) )
Cons:
Optimization would be nice... The mission where I capture/destroy the Carthage, when I called for reinforcement, about all of the objectives were done. I got some superior lag. And after most was destroyed, every 2sec, it stops 1 frame. Like a lag, but obviously a graphical issue.
On Insane Difficulty, the missions get unrealistic. Most of the mission are quite realistic and Laporte and the other wingmen are supposed to be some elite veteran pilots with mad skills.
I replayed the harder missions probably more than 10, 15 or 20 times. Before I completed it. I had to use my wingmen for almost everything, while I just watched the combat. Because as soon as I shoot, it's a death trap. And some missions they wont attack the fighters on order. Maybe it was only the Carthage destruction/capture mission. Because when I ordered the wingmen to shoot down enemy fighters, the responded like it was unnecessary...
Or maybe I'm supposed to be more of a commander? But don't forget the Freespace Universe is based on you being a pilot among others.
And again the missions difficulty...
I mean I did succeed to play though the whole campaign on Insane. But the hard missions, which was most of them, or maybe all of them. Probably 20+ replays to finally SURVIVE.
No extra wingmen on some missions. It's to much "heroic". Even if the whole story points out that Laporte is a killing machine sure..
Well. This difficulty is MANAGEABLE. Just don't make it harder now... Or it can grew impossible, or just 100 tries. Which should not be necessary.
Someone else in a thread gave the mission complexity a con. But I like it. Maybe he should have read the mission briefing thoroughly before he played it.
I can't give it any more cons. It's really well done. Most other stuff people say is personal opinions that should be taken into consideration of course. But I think the way you are doing it now is really great.
Just don't stray of to far outside the Freespace universe. Meaning, don't get to creative. I was not a fan of the Tower Defense Mission. Creative, but does not fit.
I wanted to share my opinion on the voice acting. No disrespect. I just want the best for the story and campaigns, and if my opinion can help, I want to express it.
I KNOW it's a free game and everyone here does it on their free time and it's amazing what you have pulled off.
The voice acting on Age of Aquarius at times was pretty good, and nothing bothered me. British people for some reason usually have a knack for voice acting. But most of the time, I was bothered by the awful voice acting. No feeling. It just makes it uncomfortable to listen to.
And I'm just gonna put it out there. Samuel Bei and Mina Taylors voice acting... No feeling. All I'm gonna say. Samuel Bei is back in WiH Act 3, and some practice on that voice acting would fit in nicely :)
I'm kinda a picky for quality. So I get bothered. But I don't want to sound ungrateful. I mean, any voice acting is better then nothing. Or is it?
NO disrespect! I just share my opinion, and I would be really thankful if you pick the next voice actors and actresses carefully and make sure it's good. I would suggest taking notes from professionals. A bad voice acting could really ruin this game when it's released with voice acting.
But BIG BIG Thanks and very very good job on the whole thing. You have my deepest respect, everyone in the development team.
So please share your opinions here, I want to hear your opinions about it all as well!
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But don't forget the Freespace Universe is based on you being a pilot among others.
Definitely not. In all canon Freespace campaigns, you are the über Alpha 1 who can single-handly eliminate waves after waves after waves of enemy fighters and destroy capital ships on your own like no tomorrow. The whole war basically rests on the players' shoulders in canon (I suggest you pick a look at the failure debriefings for "Surrender Belisarius" if you want to see how far :v: brought that concept). This is widely known in the community as the "Alpha 1 syndrome".
Not that it's necessarily a bad thing - players usually like to be the hero who does heroic stuff - but it definitely isn't "one pilot among others".
On another topic, are you, really complaining about the campaign being to hard in Insane ? How about reducing the difficulty, that's what difficulty options are here for !
The campaign was thoroughly tested and optimized to be winnable in Insane difficulty. It obviously requires knowing at least a little in advance what to do in the mission and what the best approaches are. I personally believe Tenebra shines by its replayability factor : it is because it is very hard to do it right the first time, and that there are so many different ways (and that there isn't necessarily "one best way") to complete some of the missions that Tenebra can be so enjoyable.
The core of our Insane balancing is that it has to be winnable, and consistently winnable (as in, not just by pure luck) in Insane, when you already know the mission quite well, by players like me or Quantum Delta (we are the two main Insane testers). Trial-and-error is required, even for us. It is not intended to be consistently winnable on the first try (again, in Insane), nor the first couple of tries, even for veteran players.
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Glad you enjoyed it!
The voice acting is pretty much the best we can get.
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I replayed the harder missions probably more than 10, 15 or 20 times. Before I completed it. I had to use my wingmen for almost everything, while I just watched the combat. Because as soon as I shoot, it's a death trap. And some missions they wont attack the fighters on order. Maybe it was only the Carthage destruction/capture mission. Because when I ordered the wingmen to shoot down enemy fighters, the responded like it was unnecessary...
Or maybe I'm supposed to be more of a commander? But don't forget the Freespace Universe is based on you being a pilot among others.
Yea I definately got this feeling myself. I felt more useful making tactical decisions and ordering wingmen around than making use of my piloting skills. In fact, it was often times too risky to do such a thing! How many ranks do you have to go up in the military before you're the guy with the binoculars standing near the artillery and deploying platoons on the radio? I felt like I was that guy.
This is more realistic though if you think about it. Think about the types of objectives you are completing. Attacking a destroyer, stopping a commet, destroying a convoy; these things aren't really something one fighter does. Well, unless you are Alpha 1, the greatest pilot in the universe. A good moral from the military (not that I would know) is that you need people to do things. You need soldiers beside you, you need fire support, you need coordination from command. Anyone who fights a war alone is mad. WIH3 tries to deliver this and I like it. I like it because it's true.
I dunno, I sort of saw WIH3 as a unique new way to branch out of that press h and kill style gameplay, and any mod that goes there is generally doing something right.
Just don't stray of to far outside the Freespace universe. Meaning, don't get to creative. I was not a fan of the Tower Defense Mission. Creative, but does not fit.
I dunno about this. There have been many dogged attempts to play out the freespace formula, and really it only goes so far. I would have to believe, given the opportunity now, the volition devs themselves would go outside the box in making a sequel as well. I thought the tower defense mission was one of the best ones in the mod btw.
And there was voice acting in WIH3? What voice acting?
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He means AoA voice acting.
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But don't forget the Freespace Universe is based on you being a pilot among others.
Definitely not. In all canon Freespace campaigns, you are the über Alpha 1 who can single-handly eliminate waves after waves after waves of enemy fighters and destroy capital ships on your own like no tomorrow. The whole war basically rests on the players' shoulders in canon (I suggest you pick a look at the failure debriefings for "Surrender Belisarius" if you want to see how far :v: brought that concept). This is widely known in the community as the "Alpha 1 syndrome".
Not that it's necessarily a bad thing - players usually like to be the hero who does heroic stuff - but it definitely isn't "one pilot among others".
On another topic, are you, really complaining about the campaign being to hard in Insane ? How about reducing the difficulty, that's what difficulty options are here for !
The campaign was thoroughly tested and optimized to be winnable in Insane difficulty. It obviously requires knowing at least a little in advance what to do in the mission and what the best approaches are. I personally believe Tenebra shines by its replayability factor : it is because it is very hard to do it right the first time, and that there are so many different ways (and that there isn't necessarily "one best way") to complete some of the missions that Tenebra can be so enjoyable.
The core of our Insane balancing is that it has to be winnable, and consistently winnable (as in, not just by pure luck) in Insane, when you already know the mission quite well, by players like me or Quantum Delta (we are the two main Insane testers). Trial-and-error is required, even for us. It is not intended to be consistently winnable on the first try (again, in Insane), nor the first couple of tries, even for veteran players.
Well. True about the "uber alpha 1". Kind off. It has become that. But if you would play Medium or Hard, most of your pilots are alive and helping a lot.
I mean most mission you have at least 2 squads including your own and I believe the thought of the game would be you're 1 pilot among others. I think that is pretty clear.
Blue Planet has developed more into that "Uber Alpha 1" character. Especially in War in Heaven.
Don't forget that we who play Freespace, are probably pretty good at it and can kill everyone... But it would be pretty silly if the game developers developed the game after an Insane Player, yea? :P
Regarding your answer on my difficulty opinions.
I guess I compared it to much to the Insane difficulties for other campaigns like the original Freespace Campaigns and Age of Aquarius and War in Heaven Act 1 and Act 2.
I play those campaigns on Insane maybe on the hardest mission replay only up to 3 times. It still feels quite challanging and I'm on the edge of dying which is good.
But Act 3, with those complex missions, the difficulty is on a whole other level.
Quoting "The core of our Insane balancing is that it has to be winnable, and consistently winnable (as in, not just by pure luck) in Insane, when you already know the mission quite well, by players like me or Quantum Delta (we are the two main Insane testers). Trial-and-error is required, even for us. It is not intended to be consistently winnable on the first try (again, in Insane), nor the first couple of tries, even for veteran players."
Now when you say that, it makes more sense actually.
I can agree on it. No luck could get me through my mission. I had to know the mission well. I had to know my weapons and my ship well. I had to know the battlefield well, to know the best approach to victory. And I always make it harder for myself, by trying to do the mission as perfect as I can.
But even if I knew the mission well through briefing, it did take a replays to really 100% know what the best approach on the battlefield. Surely, no luck.
Another thing while playing on Insane.. My wingmen on WiH Act 3 cannot die. And it looks pretty silly when they are blasted by 10 fighters, several sentries, Flak Guns and Anti-fighter beams. And they survive :P
I relied a lot on my wingmen because they couldn't die. That's why I think it was a bit to hard.
The Carthage Destruction/Capture Mission, I think it would have been better if there was 1 or 2 wings of fighters trying to draw the other fighters. That would have been better IMO.
I replayed the harder missions probably more than 10, 15 or 20 times. Before I completed it. I had to use my wingmen for almost everything, while I just watched the combat. Because as soon as I shoot, it's a death trap. And some missions they wont attack the fighters on order. Maybe it was only the Carthage destruction/capture mission. Because when I ordered the wingmen to shoot down enemy fighters, the responded like it was unnecessary...
Or maybe I'm supposed to be more of a commander? But don't forget the Freespace Universe is based on you being a pilot among others.
Yea I definately got this feeling myself. I felt more useful making tactical decisions and ordering wingmen around than making use of my piloting skills. In fact, it was often times too risky to do such a thing! How many ranks do you have to go up in the military before you're the guy with the binoculars standing near the artillery and deploying platoons on the radio? I felt like I was that guy.
This is more realistic though if you think about it. Think about the types of objectives you are completing. Attacking a destroyer, stopping a commet, destroying a convoy; these things aren't really something one fighter does. Well, unless you are Alpha 1, the greatest pilot in the universe. A good moral from the military (not that I would know) is that you need people to do things. You need soldiers beside you, you need fire support, you need coordination from command. Anyone who fights a war alone is mad. WIH3 tries to deliver this and I like it. I like it because it's true.
I dunno, I sort of saw WIH3 as a unique new way to branch out of that press h and kill style gameplay, and any mod that goes there is generally doing something right.
Just don't stray of to far outside the Freespace universe. Meaning, don't get to creative. I was not a fan of the Tower Defense Mission. Creative, but does not fit.
I dunno about this. There have been many dogged attempts to play out the freespace formula, and really it only goes so far. I would have to believe, given the opportunity now, the volition devs themselves would go outside the box in making a sequel as well. I thought the tower defense mission was one of the best ones in the mod btw.
And there was voice acting in WIH3? What voice acting?
I think it is becoming the opposite. It's not getting more realistic. 1 Squad of Stealth fighters doing the whole job? I guess maybe I should make a play through on hard, because on insane that is only possible because your wingmen are "supposed" to be very skilled and therefore, never dies. As of they don't drop below like 15% Hull.
The tower defense mission was a very creative idea. It was pretty well made. But what the Freespace Universe succeeds is it makes me feel I'm part of a war. Part of a crew, I'm flying with my wingmen and trying to make a difference.
With the Tower Defense Mission it felt more like a silly game, to be honest. I love Freespace so much because I for one, love "War" games. And the more they succeed to make it feel like I'm actually in the war, the better.
There was no "war" in the tower defense mission. Because one, it was not original. I mean, the idea is taken directly from Tower Defense, which just reminds me of those silly games that usually turn out to look very silly in their end-games...
And two, platforms and building strategies? It becomes a strategy game. Which, never feels like I'm part of the war. I'm just the commander giving orders. And then the enemies comes in stupidly in a line wanting to get killed?
No it has KILLED the whole war feeling. Others might have liked the idea and the mission because you maybe have played a lot of Tower Defense. Me, I don't like that game. It's to plain and stupid IMO. So I think it's no good for Blue Planet or any other Freespace campaign.
Freespace originally makes you 1 pilot, among others. If you really think about it. If you don't play on Insane which causes your wingmen to die really fast, (And bare in thought that this game is old).
You start of by just following orders and you cannot order anyone around. You become later a veteran elite pilot. But mostly the only other thing you are ordering around are your wingmen. I don't recall being able to order around the capital ships in the original Freespace 1 and 2 campaigns.
While it's not a bad thing that in Blue Planet, we can now order around capital ships. But in reality, pilots doesn't get to do that to much. Because they are flying Fighters. A Fighter Pilots lifespan is never to long. There is only a few that probably manages to stay veterans, which then I can agree, they get to boss around a bit, but they probably get killed as well. Just because they are fighter pilots. Compared to big Capital Ships with crews over hundreds and thousands.
And yea, about the Voice Acting. I simply gave my opinion that in Age of Aquarius, some voice acting was better and some were worse. While to others this might be a bother but to me it is because I'm a quality junkie whenever it's possible.
And because I love Blue Planet so much, I would hate to see some bad voice acting ruin it.
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I can't but agree on the point about the silliness of having your wingmates have "all the fun" while you have to sit down in the dark managing everything around you, despite the fact that you are supposed to fly the same fighter, and you are supposed to be a better pilot than even your amazing wingmates. It's a contradiction that could have perhaps been resolved better.
The contradiction did create a lot of "problems" in my attempts to solve the missions. I was trying too hard to do the "obvious" thing, and only when I started to think "hackily", that is, outside of what the plot and the scenery is telling me to do, only then an "aha" moment started to cross my mind "what if I don't shoot anyone at all?". Then the Carthage mission turned out to be incredibly easy.
Again, just a thought.
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Well. True about the "uber alpha 1". Kind off. It has become that. But if you would play Medium or Hard, most of your pilots are alive and helping a lot.
I mean most mission you have at least 2 squads including your own and I believe the thought of the game would be you're 1 pilot among others. I think that is pretty clear.
Blue Planet has developed more into that "Uber Alpha 1" character. Especially in War in Heaven.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Blue Planet has gone in exactly the opposite direction. It is consistently less about "Uber Alpha 1" than retail FS1/FS2, especially in War in Heaven.
I guess I compared it to much to the Insane difficulties for other campaigns like the original Freespace Campaigns and Age of Aquarius and War in Heaven Act 1 and Act 2.
I play those campaigns on Insane maybe on the hardest mission replay only up to 3 times. It still feels quite challanging and I'm on the edge of dying which is good.
But Act 3, with those complex missions, the difficulty is on a whole other level.
It IS on a whole other level - it's easier! Once you've figured out a good plan for the mission, the Act 3 missions are pretty brisk even on Insane, because they rely more on careful and decisive execution than mechanical skill.
Another thing while playing on Insane.. My wingmen on WiH Act 3 cannot die. And it looks pretty silly when they are blasted by 10 fighters, several sentries, Flak Guns and Anti-fighter beams. And they survive :P
This same thing happens in several missions in retail FS2. We handle it better than that because the wingmen can be knocked out of action. When they're getting blasted like that, they'll rapidly lose weapons and have to withdraw to repair.
The Carthage Destruction/Capture Mission, I think it would have been better if there was 1 or 2 wings of fighters trying to draw the other fighters. That would have been better IMO.
There were not just 1 or 2 wings of fighters available to help you out, but a whole destroyer air wing, remember?
I think it is becoming the opposite. It's not getting more realistic. 1 Squad of Stealth fighters doing the whole job?
Special operations forces rely on skill, excellent intelligence, and violence of action to achieve their objectives, not numbers. The design of Tenebra would've failed if it had the same 'part of a unit' feel as the later missions in Acts 1 and 2.
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I think it is becoming the opposite. It's not getting more realistic. 1 Squad of Stealth fighters doing the whole job? I guess maybe I should make a play through on hard, because on insane that is only possible because your wingmen are "supposed" to be very skilled and therefore, never dies. As of they don't drop below like 15% Hull.
The tower defense mission was a very creative idea. It was pretty well made. But what the Freespace Universe succeeds is it makes me feel I'm part of a war. Part of a crew, I'm flying with my wingmen and trying to make a difference.
With the Tower Defense Mission it felt more like a silly game, to be honest. I love Freespace so much because I for one, love "War" games. And the more they succeed to make it feel like I'm actually in the war, the better.
It very rarely, if ever, is your squad doing everything.
M1 Objective: destroy a convoy. Assets: Your wing, two gef fighter wings, one custos gunship.
M2 Objective: assassinate a VIP aboard a transport. Assets: You work alone, aided by a deployable jamming beacon
M3 Objective: Stop a comet headed towards earth. Assets: One custos gunship, with a crew of ... well more than 4. One troop transport.
M4 Objective: Destroy a... Destroyer. Assets: Your wing, two artillery frigates, many wings of fighters and bombers.
M4 Objective: Cover a refinery from a substantial force. Assets: Your wing, and more than a dozen tanks likely with a crew of more than one a piece.
M5 Objective: Search your mind for clues to end the war Assets: You work alone
I agree that you're not really one soldier amungst many, but more of a standoffish colonel or something similar. I guess my point is that you have assets under your control, and those assets are what wins you the day, not your amazing ability as an individual pilot to turn the tide of an entire battle. In the original freespace, your wingmen and local capital ships tend to be props in the scene while the real legwork is carried out by you the player. This is not horrible from a gameplay standpoint, but it shows a real contrast in direction between FS2 and WIH3.
Point taken with the tank defense mission. I can see how it radiates that feeling and appears much like the starcraft turret defense games. The map does somewhat play itself too. I interpreted the scenario as an ambush, the gas in the atmosphere masking the tanks on the platforms making the enemy force unable to retaliate until it was too late. Ambushes in war happen a lot, and they generally don't feel like straight battles, especially when modern technology is involved.
The cheese factor was highest for me with the mission where you fly a custos against a commet. High stakes, and commmand only sends you (in a custos, but still...) without any sort of backup plan whatsoever. There was some reason for it but I forgot. Don't get me wrong, the mission was fun, but it rubbed off on me as sort of cheesy. If any mission broke the "you are one of many" mentality it was that mission. Are you the best custos commander in the fedayeen? Why does command send you?
Let me just go off on a tangent and say the whole "Laporte has a destiny" thing has struck me both ways. I like the whole story with ken and bosch and with laporte discovering her more animalistic survival instincts, but why Laporte? Why not Falconer, or Simms, or any number of the other UEF piots? Individuals aren't just magically special. Anyone see battlestar gallactica with Starbuck and what season 3/4 turned her into? That character with a "purpose" who was special just because? I'm getting that vibe with laporte.
Things happen for a reason. Maybe laporte is some child-of-bosch shivan killerwoman construct sent to destroy vishnans or some dang thing. I'd go for that more than laporte being this vague special character that fills a plot point you know what I mean? I go back and fourth on this because you want a player character who is important to the story, but not magically special for no reason.
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Let me just go off on a tangent and say the whole "Laporte has a destiny" thing has struck me both ways. I like the whole story with ken and bosch and with laporte discovering her more animalistic survival instincts, but why Laporte? Why not Falconer, or Simms, or any number of the other UEF piots? Individuals aren't just magically special. Anyone see battlestar gallactica with Starbuck and what season 3/4 turned her into? That character with a "purpose" who was special just because? I'm getting that vibe with laporte.
Things happen for a reason. Maybe laporte is some child-of-bosch shivan killerwoman construct sent to destroy vishnans or some dang thing. I'd go for that more than laporte being this vague special character that fills a plot point you know what I mean? I go back and fourth on this because you want a player character who is important to the story, but not magically special for no reason.
Universal Truth talks about this quite explicitly, though. Laporte thinks the idea that she's a special chosen one is so ridiculous that she rejects it outright and decides she's insane. Ken mentions that there are actually a bunch of other candidates but none of them have worked out quite as well. And in the Dreamscape at a few points Laporte really pushes back against the idea that she's a 'chosen one'.
A lot of Tenebra is about what happens when you have this fuzzy wuzzy 'chosen one destiny' story and then a ruthless military organization sits down and analyzes the **** out of it.
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On another topic, are you, really complaining about the campaign being to hard in Insane ? How about reducing the difficulty, that's what difficulty options are here for !
The campaign was thoroughly tested and optimized to be winnable in Insane difficulty. It obviously requires knowing at least a little in advance what to do in the mission and what the best approaches are. I personally believe Tenebra shines by its replayability factor : it is because it is very hard to do it right the first time, and that there are so many different ways (and that there isn't necessarily "one best way") to complete some of the missions that Tenebra can be so enjoyable.
The core of our Insane balancing is that it has to be winnable, and consistently winnable (as in, not just by pure luck) in Insane, when you already know the mission quite well, by players like me or Quantum Delta (we are the two main Insane testers). Trial-and-error is required, even for us. It is not intended to be consistently winnable on the first try (again, in Insane), nor the first couple of tries, even for veteran players.
Mantis 2788 (which disabled difficulty damage scaling) is still not fixed with the 2/11 BP build, only with recent trunk builds. I have informed The E about this multiple times over IRC but I guess he never received the messages. So he can't turn down the difficulty with much effectiveness until a new BP build is built.
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I'm sure he's aware, but he's been pretty busy.
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Mantis 2788 (which disabled difficulty damage scaling) is still not fixed with the 2/11 BP build, only with recent trunk builds.
Which is irrelevant if he's playing Insane.
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I am aware. I am also quite certain that the builds currently in the respective threats have the fix for that bug.
In any case, new builds will be forthcoming after the antipodes code has been merged to trunk.
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Going back to an earlier point, I think that the command-obsession of Tenebra would have been much less severe if there were an actual delay between firing and detection. The GTVA seems to have this magical radar ability to pinpoint a stealth fighter on the first shot and immediately bring all weapons to bear on it. We don't get instantaneous locks on enemy stealth fighters when they open fire, why should they? Shouldn't there be a delay of several seconds before hostile pilots can spot you, and capital ships struggle to hit your moving fighter without AWACS support?
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the ai is a cheating bastard
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We don't get instantaneous locks on enemy stealth fighters when they open fire, why should they?
Huh, where does that come from ? You never fight against Ainsarii. Pegasus do not use the same stealth tech and hence are expected to have a different stealth behaviour.
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Well. True about the "uber alpha 1". Kind off. It has become that. But if you would play Medium or Hard, most of your pilots are alive and helping a lot.
I mean most mission you have at least 2 squads including your own and I believe the thought of the game would be you're 1 pilot among others. I think that is pretty clear.
Blue Planet has developed more into that "Uber Alpha 1" character. Especially in War in Heaven.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Blue Planet has gone in exactly the opposite direction. It is consistently less about "Uber Alpha 1" than retail FS1/FS2, especially in War in Heaven.
I can't help but disagree again.
I guess if you look at the game at first, other assets play a big role and so forth. I can agree on that War in Heaven Act 1 and 2, succeeds in getting rid of the heroic matter quite well. But Act 3 it's just about Laporte and how she is this special killing machine.
Bigchunk1 gave a good example. Corrected on the assets. Also added the enemies assets, for good measures. (Trying to remember correctly)
M1 Objective: Destroy a convoy. Assets: Your wing, one 6 wing of gef fighters(Only usable to destroy AWACS), one custos gunship and AWACS.
Enemies Assets: 2 wings of Serapis Fighters. 2 Aten Cruisers. 4 tankers and every tanker had like 4-6 transports that could support gunfire.
M2 Objective: Assassinate a VIP aboard a transport. Assets: You work alone, aided by a deployable a beacon that brings in a suicide transport.
Enemies Assets: Well on this mission it doesn't matter that much. Patrolling fighters and what not. There could have been much more and wouldn't make such a big difference. This mission was easy.
M3 Objective: Stop a comet headed towards earth. Assets: One custos gunship, One troop transport.
Enemies Assets: 1 Destroyer Capital Ship, 1 wing of Gef fighters, when killed sends 1 wing of bombers. 2 gunships that makes hell for you if you're to slow. Pointless sentries that just buys time..
M4 Objective: Destroy a... Destroyer. Assets: Your wing, two artillery frigates, many wings of fighters and bombers. (Only when objectives are completed!)
Enemies Assets: The Carthage (Originally Orion Destroyer Class but with updated weapons and armor), 2 Mjolnir, 4 Deimos Class Cruisers. 4 Tankers (escorted by one of the Deimos), 1 Leviathan Cruiser, 2 AWACS with 1 wing of Aurora fighters. 3-4 Additional wings of fighters. 1 Wing of bombers. Lots of sentries, 1 Asteria Space Station. 2 additional mjolnirs next to that one. Am I forgetting something?
M5 Objective: Cover a refinery from a substantial force. Assets: Your wing, and more than a dozen tanks likely with a crew of more than one a piece.
Enemies Assets: Baloons? I don't know. This mission was so easy I won't bother here.
M6 Objective: Search your mind for clues to end the war Assets: You work alone[/i]
Mission 3 and 4 are the ones that are exceedingly "heroic".
M3. I can quite confidently say that Mission 3, is some what over the edge. She is a fighter pilot. How can she fly this ship with no experience of real command on a bridge?
Well, to be fair. I think this mission is more about how awesome it is to be able to fly a capital ship. And the "minor" realistic details don't matter.
So I take it this is just for gameplay standards. It could have been easily changed to flying a fighter squadron or 2. Bombers what ever with the aid of the capital ship. (And luck for spotting that weakness for the enemies massive warship.)
1 gunship with a fighter pilot commanding it. Against a big ass destroyer and some additional wings AND 2 gunships? I won by destroying that Destroyer. So I can't say if it's easier ignoring it.
M4. This mission is seriously over the top. Just look at all those enemies assets! This was the hardest one for me. Sure you got a lot of Aid AFTER, you did all the hard work.
I did everything on this one because a few times I had about 20 assets ready and I went for it, they all died pretty quickly and I wasn't able to disable the Carthage.
But with a lot trail and error, I did all the objectives so I could call in a massive force and both of the artillery warships were still in business.
The enemy has tons of fighters, awacs and what not. And the only thing I DID was to scan the base. I destroyed the tankers with my artillery first, then moved on to the mine-layers. While I just watched from a safe distance and order around my wingmen to destroy mjolnirs, awacs, rader dish and what not, because if I tried. It's instant death. (now and then AWACS got a hold of me even though I'm far away, Epic evasive maneuvers there.)
I mean sure I call in a big strike. But so much preparation for it. Those enemy fighters should be able to see me visually and my wingmen visually and kill us. And THIS Mission, my wingmen never depart. Just complain about repairs and then they get back to it. Easy buttons "Form on my wing" and then attack again.
M1. Ok, granted. It's fine. It's a "lightly" (notice I use lightly vaguely) defended convoy and Stealth fighters are a ***** and with some AWACS it makes this mission more realistic. (Except how did the vasudans not notice the AWACS and Gunship jumping in? GEF Don't have those.)
M2. Works alone and this would be the only true stealth fighter mission IMO. Since the stealth fighter has been made to be hard to see visually, this makes the mission more realistic and "non-heroic" then mission 4. Since you always keep distance and never fire.
Any stealth fighter engaging in a battle like in Mission 4, should not be able to do that much damage. Even without sensor lock. A firing fighter is easy to visually see. We all played a mission while we were chasing stealth fighters, (FS2 Campaign) and it was not hard to fire upon them.
M5. I don't think this mission fits at all. Weird. The enemies don't even attack in a logic manner. They are like mindless robots set to just fly in a circle and bash the base with the front end of the ship.
M6 This mission is really special and it's a battle within yourself. Information mission. Not a war mission. Doesn't need to be discussed.
General Battuta, you state that you handle it "better" with having the wingmen being able to "repair" and get back into the fight.
Not really realistic at all with mission 4. Maybe Mission 1. But they depart instead on that mission.
One order to destroy anything in mission 4, the wingmen is getting blasted to oblivion by so much gunfire. As soon as he shoots they can lock on him. It's so silly... It's actually more, when I think about, your wingmen being overpowered. The mission has gotten so hard that you resolve it in making the wingmen invulnerable. Even if you think they "pull off and repair", it's not realistic. Almost every situation they should have been dead.
But than again, how do we solve this with the current AI and if you want 1 squad of elite veteran fighter pilots handling this big of an enemy army?
Taking everything into consideration, different opinions and what might be a fact and what might not. It think they way to correctly judge if the missions are very "heroic like" like alpha 1 or the whole squad being overpowered, or if it's evenly balanced between weapon technologies, size of forces and bla bla bla, goes on and on. I think a big poll could be a better way to judge it correctly, then the few of us.
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No thanks, I think I'll judge it for myself. ;)
I guess if you look at the game at first, other assets play a big role and so forth. I can agree on that War in Heaven Act 1 and 2, succeeds in getting rid of the heroic matter quite well. But Act 3 it's just about Laporte and how she is this special killing machine.
It's just the opposite, actually. It's about how violent, precise action at the correct point can redirect even very complex situations. Alpha 1 Syndrome as we know it from FS1/FS2 has to do with the battlespace pivoting on Alpha 1's remarkable ability to kill things, survive damage, and restart the mission if s//he dies. That doesn't happen in Act 3, where Laporte's achievements are embedded in a much more complex - and quite explicit - tactical and strategic support layer.
The point made over and over again in Act 3 is that there's nothing enormously more special about Laporte than the other Fedayeen.
The mission has gotten so hard that you resolve it in making the wingmen invulnerable. Even if you think they "pull off and repair", it's not realistic. Almost every situation they should have been dead.
That isn't in particular why the wingmen are 'invulnerable' (though they're not invulnerable). The mission is actually quite easy on the mechanical level once you've figured out a good strategy. You're also playing on Insane!
Adding additional friendly pilots would've achieved nothing except making the mission a lot less fun.
M3. I can quite confidently say that Mission 3, is some what over the edge. She is a fighter pilot. How can she fly this ship with no experience of real command on a bridge?
This question is answered in the campaign if you pay attention!
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Just because something is explained doesn't make it believable. I have to agree on both points actually. Watching one of your wingmen tear straight through the sentry field and corvette screen in Her Finest Hour with the AWACs/Auroras active looks absolutely ridiculous. I was able to say "well, ok, it's just a game", but suspension of disbelief failed for a moment there.
The Custos is slightly more believable because it basically handled like a fighter, or, well, like a Uriel with turrets. But then you go up against a destroyer, two gunships, and several squadrons of fighters and wreck them without really being threatened, and on a time limit. I suppose others had more difficulty than I did on this mission though. If soloing that kind of threat while outgunned isn't Alpha One syndrome, I don't know what is.
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Just because something is explained doesn't make it believable. I have to agree on both points actually. Watching one of your wingmen tear straight through the sentry field and corvette screen in Her Finest Hour with the AWACs/Auroras active looks absolutely ridiculous. I was able to say "well, ok, it's just a game", but suspension of disbelief failed for a moment there.
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6780/35665145.jpg)
The Custos is slightly more believable because it basically handled like a fighter, or, well, like a Uriel with turrets. But then you go up against a destroyer, two gunships, and several squadrons of fighters and wreck them without really being threatened, and on a time limit. I suppose others had more difficulty than I did on this mission though. If soloing that kind of threat while outgunned isn't Alpha One syndrome, I don't know what is.
The gunships were transports with armor strapped on them, the destroyer was if anything supposed to be weaker than a FS1 era Orion. The squadrons of fighters were actually two wings, and they were civilian issue.
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Just because something is explained doesn't make it believable. I have to agree on both points actually. Watching one of your wingmen tear straight through the sentry field and corvette screen in Her Finest Hour with the AWACs/Auroras active looks absolutely ridiculous. I was able to say "well, ok, it's just a game", but suspension of disbelief failed for a moment there.
Here are a few fun alternatives, though:
1) Your wingmen aren't guardianed, you lose the mission every time they die
2) Your wingmen get protected when their weapons subsystems are disabled; enemies magically stop shooting them
3) Your wingmen jump out when they're badly damaged; every line of wingman dialogue in the mission from then on needs to be treed, and the player can be forced into mission states where they have few available tools left
The Custos is slightly more believable because it basically handled like a fighter, or, well, like a Uriel with turrets. But then you go up against a destroyer, two gunships, and several squadrons of fighters and wreck them without really being threatened, and on a time limit. I suppose others had more difficulty than I did on this mission though. If soloing that kind of threat while outgunned isn't Alpha One syndrome, I don't know what is.
If taking on a fringe society's several-decade-old converted transport and light, obsolete fighter support in a top-of-the-line littoral combatant purpose-built for the mission feels like Alpha One Syndrome rather than Doing Your Job then I don't know what Alpha One Syndrome means any more.
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Apparently, it's not plausible that a state-of-the-art black ops cruiser could kill a small group of antiquated civilian ships that have been refitted for combat by a faction that really isn't known for its combat capabilities.
Seriously, some of the most dangerous ships you face in that mission are Medusas, bombers which were getting on in years 50 years ago!
It's like complaining that an Independence-class LCS shouldn't be able to kick the crap out of old WW2 cargo ships and a few Fairey Swordfish.
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well, to his defense, that destroyer could win 1v1 against karuna (fred-wise)
those missiles are really nasty :)
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Here are a few fun alternatives, though:
1) Your wingmen aren't guardianed, you lose the mission every time they die
2) Your wingmen get protected when their weapons subsystems are disabled; enemies magically stop shooting them
3) Your wingmen jump out when they're badly damaged; every line of wingman dialogue in the mission from then on needs to be treed, and the player can be forced into mission states where they have few available tools left
Yes, that is the honest way to put it. Halting the suspension of disbelief in HFH couldn't be avoided due to reaching the limits of the level's complexity. The only reason that it bothers somewhat is that most of the whole rest is pitch perfect, incredibly immersive. And so what in other campaigns would be taken as a given (yeah invulnerable wingmates ftw) here it appears as the limit of an incredible effort, as if to say "Ahh yeah they are invulnerable. So what? We are not FRED gods you know?" :)
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Well, yeah. I'm ok with what was done for HFH. But when you play it, the end result is there is a large mechanical discrepancy between the your capabilities and the capabilities of your equally elite wingmen flying the exact same ships. For some people I'm sure that's jarring. Probably unavoidably so, but just because nothing could be done doesn't make it any less jarring.
I'll concede the point on the Custos, and add that soloing a mission in the style of Alpha One necessarily isn't a bad thing. We all enjoyed the FS and FS2 campaigns, didn't we?
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For the design objectives set out in BP2 I think that it is definitely a bad thing.
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the end result is there is a large mechanical discrepancy between the your capabilities and the capabilities of your equally elite wingmen flying the exact same ships
3 pilots who have been working together for years and know their birds inside out. Naomi wasn't paired with 3 pilots who were equal to her abilities - I felt that these pilots were superior to her, hand picked by the Fedayeen to ensure that she succeeded in her mission.
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One Future is no more an Alpha 1 mission than TBI is.
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Eh, I thought my wing and I divided the work well in HFH. Sure, I ordered them into situations where I would expect an AI to get killed under normal circumstances, but I also wasn't expecting them to have the brains to snipe from out of range.
3 pilots who have been working together for years and know their birds inside out. Naomi wasn't paired with 3 pilots who were equal to her abilities - I felt that these pilots were superior to her, hand picked by the Fedayeen to ensure that she succeeded in her mission.
I thought the Dreamscape was supposed to let them share exactly that kind of experience with her.
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I thought the Dreamscape was supposed to let them share exactly that kind of experience with her
But could the dreamscape successfully transfer that all experience to a novice? Maybe the ability to properly share knowledge is something that take time to properly learn - something that the Federation does not have. Remember that there were secrets about the wingmen that Naomi did not learn until they were specifically told to her.
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Sure about that sharing business? Didn't notice it. Seems a lot Matrixey.
For the design objectives set out in BP2 I think that it is definitely a bad thing.
Don't take it so hard. It's obviously one mission for the HLP history books. As they say in teh internetz, an "instant classic". It can receive a punch here and there.
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well, to his defense, that destroyer could win 1v1 against karuna (fred-wise)
those missiles are really nasty :)
Yep. Despite being an unpredictable wreck, the Morena actually has a very heavy armament (by the standards of the UEF). If it wasn't for that reactor vulnerability fighting it would have been extremely difficult.
One Future is no more an Alpha 1 mission than TBI is.
It depends on your perspective. Logically, everything that happens in One Future makes sense, but it still feels like an Alpha 1 mission. TBI never felt like that.
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I died so much in One Future it never felt like Alpha 1 syndrome. I earned that victory.
Your welcome Kostadin, I totally could have just vaporized your asses. :p
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It felt like an Alpha 1 mission to me because I was able to save the world (and by extension the UEF) by taking down a well-armed destroyer, two gunships, and a pile of fighters, all without any allies aside from that transport that in no way provides any useful fire support.
Of course, the Custos-X's crew does not solely consist of Noemi and the transport ultimately ends up saving the day (unless you blow up the habitat), so it really isn't an Alpha 1 mission. But it still feels like one.
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The Morena is by no means a well armed destroyer, the gunships will lose to a single Cretheus, and the fighters are so bad Sergei looks good flying a Ulysses (50 years old, remember).
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the macduff's mass drivers are nothing to cough at. and if the gunships manage to get in relatively close while you're focused on something else, they will lay a hurtin' on you too.
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Gray, Noemi isn't exactly a novice; she's new to the Fedayeen, but still one of the best pilots in the UEF. Maybe there are still secrets in the dreamscape because it would be useless to share them, or because someone doesn't want to share them.
Sure about that sharing business? Didn't notice it. Seems a lot Matrixey.
I think so:
I don't know how it works. I know what it's for. We share our skills, our fears, our suspicions - the things you can't speak. Gives our analysts data, gives the operators a chance to come home alive.
Welcome to the dreamscape, Laporte. Subconscious affiliation and resource pooling, courtesy of CASSANDRA.
The dreamscape is feeding skills, cognitive schema and personal understanding to every connected Fedayeen. We use it to share our most basic talents, things you can't teach.
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the macduff's mass drivers are nothing to cough at. and if the gunships manage to get in relatively close while you're focused on something else, they will lay a hurtin' on you too.
I assumed that the gunships hurt so much precisely because of their age: the Macduff's weapons are meant for fighting other, unshielded capital ships, but the cruisers are still using Great War-era blob turrets designed precisely to breach shields.
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Could it be that the plot arc has Laporte gaining in her abilities and power (apex of the protagonist in the story) and so it could be mistaken as Alpha 1 syndrome?
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Qent
Sorry I should have been clearer I ment a novice to the dreamscape in that her mind would take time to adapt to accessing information on the network just like it takes time to learn any new skill. Perhaps given time she could learn everything she needed from the other fedayeen however at this time they had to give her the best wingmen to fly with and hope for the best.
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Oh.... Yes, that's a possibility.
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Glad you enjoyed it!
The voice acting is pretty much the best we can get.
the voice acting is very very good, and nothing short of that
considering this is a fan project it is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
and this is coming from a person who does not even play anything that is not voice acted, i'm very sensitive on this topic ;)
can't wait for the day when you finally will have completed the acting for war in heaven, so i can finally play it :D hurry up lads ;)
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The Morena is by no means a well armed destroyer, the gunships will lose to a single Cretheus, and the fighters are so bad Sergei looks good flying a Ulysses (50 years old, remember).
The Morena and its escorts are pathetic compared to modern military warships, but they still pose a significant threat to the Vindicator.
Anyway, feelings are generally divorced from logic. One Future may not be an Alpha 1 mission, but It felt like one, and tbh that's one of my favorite things about it.
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I'm procrastinating horribly for something right now so I arced back around here and found WiH P3 was out!
God damn that was incredible. Also, some of those missions were incredibly tough!
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The Morena and its escorts are pathetic compared to modern military warships, but they still pose a significant threat to the Vindicator.
That it takes a cruiser to make the Morena look threatening is ample proof of how pathetic a destroyer it really is.
And when I say the Ancamnas will lose to a Cretheus, I mean that one Cretheus will happily take on three Ancamnas at once and come out on top.
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Well, to be fair the Vindicator is probably the best cruiser ever made other than the Lilith. Its Arquebus is the most powerful anti-warship weapon in the UEF's arsenal, and it has a whole bunch of special abilites.
But yeah, the Morena is pretty bad. I thought it had a fairly heavy armament because of its Ousters, but it looks like they were nerfed hard for Tenebra (they used to be as powerful as the Solaris's Apocalypse laucnhers).
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Well, to be fair the Vindicator is probably the best cruiser ever made other than the Lilith. Its Arquebus is the most powerful anti-warship weapon in the UEF's arsenal, and it has a whole bunch of special abilites.
But yeah, the Morena is pretty bad. I thought it had a fairly heavy armament because of its Ousters, but it looks like they were nerfed hard for Tenebra (they used to be as powerful as the Solaris's Apocalypse laucnhers).
Ousters never existed in any meaningful way before Tenebra.
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They were in the tables, just unused.
EDIT: Oh and it seems like the Solaris's Gattler Turrets are about twice as powerful now. A lot of things got rebalanced.
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They were in the tables, just unused.
Like I said, did not exist in any meaningful way. A development placeholder is pretty meaningless.
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Where the hell is Act 3. I can't seem to find it anywhere to download.
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Where the hell is Act 3. I can't seem to find it anywhere to download.
Pinned right at the top of this board? http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70745.0
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Yeah I know that. I download the complete package or the Standalone installer for War in Heaven, but it only installs act 1 and 2. Act 3 is nowhere to be found.
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Yeah I know that. I download the complete package or the Standalone installer for War in Heaven, but it only installs act 1 and 2. Act 3 is nowhere to be found.
Haha, another casualty of confusing nomenclature, I think. You should see two campaign files in the Campaign Room (in addition to FS2 Default and The Blade Itself) - War in Heaven Part 1 and War in Heaven Part 2.
Part 1 contains Acts 1 and 2, Part 2 contains Act 3.
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Part 2 didn't seem like it contained it. I just finished part 2 and it took me back to the main menu.
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Part 2 didn't seem like it contained it. I just finished part 2 and it took me back to the main menu.
What was the last mission you played?
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Sunglare. Now Icarus.
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Then you just finished Act1 and 2, and you are starting Act3.
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Yeah I just figured that out last night. .-.
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well, to his defense, that destroyer could win 1v1 against karuna (fred-wise)
those missiles are really nasty :)
Yep. Despite being an unpredictable wreck, the Morena actually has a very heavy armament (by the standards of the UEF). If it wasn't for that reactor vulnerability fighting it would have been extremely difficult.
One Future is no more an Alpha 1 mission than TBI is.
It depends on your perspective. Logically, everything that happens in One Future makes sense, but it still feels like an Alpha 1 mission. TBI never felt like that.
The Morena's problem is its reactor vulnerability. Aside from that, it's a very high-maintenance destroyer (if a quite outdated one) that lacks a real fighterbay. The Morena could engage three FS1 Orions at once and win handily, with the only real hope for the Orions being their numerous fighter/bomber wings. If the Morena got its own fighter support, things get very messy. The Ouster alone is orders of magnitude better than the TT1 as an anti-ship weapon. The numerous mass drivers just seal the deal.
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TBI doesn't feel like an Alpha 1 mission at all because you're struggling to just survive and save as many of your people as you can from an overwhelming surprise attack. The mission proper starts with your home 'base' being blown up as you frantically try to run away from the blast. One Future has you in a super-prototype against a destroyer, a few wings of fighters/bombers, and potentially two gunboats, all while under a strict time limit to stop Armageddon, kill all the terrorists once and for all, almost by yourself in a ship of a type and class you've never even seen before. It's not so much that it's *actually* Alpha-1 style as that it almost inevitably *feels* like that style, even if logically/narrative-wise it clearly isn't. HFH avoids the problem entirely by making your success all about being pinpoint-accurate vector for subtly turning a battle around over time, using the assets at your disposal to do much of the work and striking the crucial blow with a substantial force prepared by and maintained by an ally. You are carefully picking your shots, sniping or designating specific targets at specific times to turn the tide, not win the battle. One Future involves you pretty much doing everything yourself, short of boarding the command habitat yourself (a task that the Andex team said was surprisingly easy). The timer is by far the biggest obstacle in this mission, even thought the battle involves you versus the core of Kostadin Cell's power (you kill a destroyer by yourself in a few minutes, in a light cruiser! No matter how advanced, the mission is going to feel Alpha-1ish, which isn't necessarily a bad thing--just look at the Prometheus missions in WoD).
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The Morena can win against FS1 Orions because FS1 Orions have no decent weapons. That you have to compare it to 50+ year old destroyers for it to come out on top reveals just how crappy it is.
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Morena was a pain in the ass. Finally I said screw it and went inside the asteroid and blew up the damn thing and then doing a 1-on-1 conflict with the ship which took awhile.
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Or you could just do the shmup thing and shoot the core for massive damage.
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Giant enemy warship. Flip her over by using real time positioning thrusters and attack it's weak point for massive damage.
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*Look at the BP2 core tables*
Hmm, it's got a bunch of Karuna-grade massdrivers, which I assume are the forward facing ones, the rest are cruiser-grade.
The Ouster torpedoes actually deals a decent amount of damage, but have a terrible refire rate and can be shot down rather easily. Hell, a single launcher has actually a worst sustained dps than the SGreen (which itself is outstripped by most fighter-grade guns). Good thing it launches swarms of them.
Basically, it's kinda like replacing an Orion's TerSlash by SGreens, and its BGreens by TerSlashes. Hell that Orion-light could possibly win against the McDuff anyway.
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I don't think the MacDuff is meant to be a real danger anyway. It's just a floating hunk of Kostadin propaganda that was allowed to exist because the Elders want to keep the Gefs as a contingency.
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Despite the extended sensor network of the UEF the Gefs have profen quite adapt at staying below the radar, so I think the Elders simply didn't want to commit their forces to a massive search and destroy mission just to get rid of something that can't be used by the enemy anyway.
It's a lot like why the GTVA can't just jump in their destroyers whereever they like. The moment you commit the ship, it's vulnerable to coutnerattack. Or in other words the moment McDuff would have attacked something with his destroyer, it would have been swarmed by UEF strikecraft and taken down, thus the best roles the Morena could serve were as propaganda tool (like qwadtep already said) and as deterrent against attacks on the main hub (most probably against other Gef factions, since the UEF could quite easily bring in a force capable of crushing that ship, even in their pre-war configurations).