Hard Light Productions Forums

Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: rubixcube on March 10, 2013, 12:13:17 am

Title: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: rubixcube on March 10, 2013, 12:13:17 am
Even with the Fedayeen now operating without restriction, it seems fairly unlikely that the UEF can win the sol war. Ken told Laporte she would need an "armada" to defeat the alliance. Anyone have any ideas as to what he is referring to? Other alien species from other universes? Rouge elements within the GTVA? The Vasudans? A billion Alpha 1's :D

Discuss your thoughts  :pimp:
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 10, 2013, 12:15:50 am
Obviously Laporte must gather an armada of magical Shivan Nagari girls to defeat the evil GTVA lords of darkness!

 EDIT: Joking aside... She will probably make use of every single ship and ally that opens to her. Calder(?), The Fedayeen, The GEFs (if you didn't nuke Kost), the defectors from AoA, the Sanctuary, supporters among the Vasudan Imperium, etc.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: qwadtep on March 10, 2013, 12:47:31 am
Obviously Laporte must gather an armada of magical Shivan Nagari girls to defeat the evil GTVA lords of darkness!
And what did we learn about Nagari in Tenebra? What was Al-dawa all about? That's right, they combine!

Tengen Toppa Laporte-Simms! Who the hell do you think we are?!
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Crybertrance on March 10, 2013, 01:00:27 am
EDIT: Joking aside... She will probably make use of every single ship and ally that opens to her. Calder(?), The Fedayeen, The GEFs (if you didn't nuke Kost), the defectors from AoA, the Sanctuary, supporters among the Vasudan Imperium, etc.

Also, the Sekret Project  ;7
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 10, 2013, 01:14:54 am
 It's obviously a Deliverance Engine. ;7
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Klaustrophobia on March 10, 2013, 01:16:15 am
i'm pretty sure the secret project is what she's going to be fighting to stop.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Veers on March 10, 2013, 09:24:06 am
It's very simple... The UEF won't win

Spoiler:
They are going to f**k the GTVA up so hard that there won't be another side for them to make peace with!

Besides my ramblings. Secret Project is the ace card we are waiting on.., unless it is a complete diversion and doesnt really exist. Which still leaves, what are the UEF waiting on?
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Luis Dias on March 10, 2013, 09:38:10 am
They won't win. They won't need to.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Crybertrance on March 10, 2013, 10:56:20 am
It's obviously a Deliverance Engine. ;7

icwhatudidthar  ;7

i'm pretty sure the secret project is what she's going to be fighting to stop.

Yeah, I'me getting that feeling too... However, I'd be kinda bummed if that happened, I kinda want to see it in action

Spoiler:
They are going to f**k the GTVA up so hard that there won't be another side for them to make peace with!

Yeah baby!! :pimp:
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: TheDemon on March 10, 2013, 12:05:55 pm
Ken implies with the 'armada' suggestion that the solution to the UEF woes, at least the Shivan&Ken version, is necessarily military.

Where to target that military is another question. Act 3 seems to imply that the battle for Earth is coming, and although the military position looks bad, I think it's a winnable for the UEF. If it wasn't, Steele would already have attacked. Byrne has had more than a year to fortify earth orbit, although to what degree that's possible in this particular sci-fi setting I'm not certain. But if you look at the fortifications at Artemis Station and in Her Finest Hour, the GTVA have figured out methods to defend small-scale static positions. What's to say the UEF haven't also?

That Steele is on Laporte's list implies that the campaign will set up some kind of showdown with him, where Laporte's actions contribute to his capture or death.

I do think that Laporte's armada is going to be much more directed than just a big fighting force; we'll see it aimed at the secret project, among other things. Basically, the Shivan&Ken route to victory is using precise military force to expose and deal with things happening behind the scenes. Hanging over this in the plot currently is the upcoming battle for Earth, and the question in my mind is if some of these behind the scenes items will be dealt with before that battle, or after.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: GrahamO on March 10, 2013, 03:37:01 pm
Lots of ways to win against a superior force .....

A few idea here http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Art-War-Sun-Tzu/dp/0981162614/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362947772&sr=8-1

Its not about brute force, but the application of leverage - the right leverage can move mountains ;)
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: niffiwan on March 10, 2013, 04:44:39 pm
I think the Vasudans could be a big factor here.  HoL agents have been purged from the Terran fleet, but what about the Vasudan fleet in Sol?  If there's even just one HoL-following Vasudan destroyer captain (who could potentially shield other agents on his ship from the purge), then you have enormous potential for disruption/destruction of the GTVA fleet.  Would Steele plan for a new hostile destroyer flanking Sker team (for instance) at some very inconvenient time?
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Aesaar on March 10, 2013, 05:16:06 pm
Byrne has had more than a year to fortify earth orbit, although to what degree that's possible in this particular sci-fi setting I'm not certain. But if you look at the fortifications at Artemis Station and in Her Finest Hour, the GTVA have figured out methods to defend small-scale static positions. What's to say the UEF haven't also?
Didn't seem to help during the Blitz, and the Blitz was big enough that the GTVA nearly won the war right there (seriously, if Rheza Station gets destroyed, the UEF surrenders).
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: CT27 on March 10, 2013, 05:43:21 pm
Byrne has had more than a year to fortify earth orbit, although to what degree that's possible in this particular sci-fi setting I'm not certain. But if you look at the fortifications at Artemis Station and in Her Finest Hour, the GTVA have figured out methods to defend small-scale static positions. What's to say the UEF haven't also?
Didn't seem to help during the Blitz, and the Blitz was big enough that the GTVA nearly won the war right there (seriously, if Rheza Station gets destroyed, the UEF surrenders).

Was Rheza really THAT important?  I know it would have been a blow to UEF logistics/First Fleet readiness, but I didn't get the impression that its loss meant game over.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 10, 2013, 05:56:24 pm
 I think it's less in the realm of being that important and more of a 'the last one we have' thing.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Aesaar on March 10, 2013, 06:06:03 pm
Debriefing implied it was pretty important.  I think it's less because of its logistical significance and more about the UEF defensive perimeter though.  Without it (coupled with the other losses), they can't see or cover enough of Earth's orbital space to prevent GTVA bombers from entering the atmosphere and bombing cities.  Being open to such massive casualties prompts the Elders to call it.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: rubixcube on March 10, 2013, 06:33:07 pm
agreed, Bryne seemed to be pretty keen on defending that station, he threw a lot of forces at the station to defend it
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 10, 2013, 06:46:44 pm
:Conspiracy Keanu: What if Rheza holds the Shambhala project?
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 10, 2013, 07:13:08 pm
I doubt it.  You really don't want any sort of war-winning secret weapon being developed anywhere near a major population center in case something goes horribly wrong with it.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Mars on March 10, 2013, 11:38:29 pm
I doubt it.  You really don't want any sort of war-winning secret weapon being developed anywhere near a major population center in case something goes horribly wrong with it.

I really don't see where the UEF has made a huge effort to separate their military and civilian assets before.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: desertstorm on March 11, 2013, 02:02:09 am
the UEF cant win.  the GTVA could pull all their forces into SOL and crush
what interest do the shivans (we are lead to believe its them) have in helping the UEF.  could they just be trying to make it easier for (if) they end up coming in and destroying everything by having GTVA and UEF just throw everything at each other never uniting as the the GTA and vasudans did with the Lucifer.
I don't see either side winning because they are all being manipulated by either vishnans or shivans. both with their own goals
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Ryuseiken on March 11, 2013, 09:04:42 am
I think the final mission of act 3 showed that the Shivans are not at all scared of 'losing' to the GTVA. If they just wanted to wipe them out they wouldn't need to go through the trouble of using the UEF to weaken the GTVA, nothing the GTVA can muster would stop an 80+ jug armada.

Also, the GTA and PVN in the original Freespace were getting their asses handed to them even after they teamed up, they just got lucky and found the Ancient's records in time to use them to defeat the Lucifer.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: qwadtep on March 11, 2013, 11:21:31 am
I think the final mission of act 3 showed that the Shivans are not at all scared of 'losing' to the GTVA. If they just wanted to wipe them out they wouldn't need to go through the trouble of using the UEF to weaken the GTVA, nothing the GTVA can muster would stop an 80+ jug armada.
There's even a hidden/removed cutscene in Universal Truth of the GTVA trying to save Earth. The Shivans could steamroll the Tevs and Zods in a week.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Nyalatothep on March 11, 2013, 11:37:14 am
I think the final mission of act 3 showed that the Shivans are not at all scared of 'losing' to the GTVA. If they just wanted to wipe them out they wouldn't need to go through the trouble of using the UEF to weaken the GTVA, nothing the GTVA can muster would stop an 80+ jug armada.

Not to forget that from what we have learned about the Shivans, even if we could wipe out their fleet, they'd be able to adapt and send another one that's even more threatening. For all we know their ressources are next to infinite when compared to whatever we could muster.

If there is a way to 'defeat' them, it is either in changing their goals to include not killing us, or somehow taking away their connection to us, or maybe change something concerning subspace and the universe on a fundamental level so they may lose on their "home turf" or at least effectively lose their way of creating fleets in our universe. Conventional warfare is IMO only good for stalling for time when dealing with Shivans.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: TheDemon on March 11, 2013, 12:14:53 pm
Here's a win scenario: Figure out how to tell Steele about the Shivan threat in a way that he'll believe. I doubt he'd continue if he knew for certain the Shivans would glass Earth because his side won. If he does continue, it means the GTVA actually deludes themselves into believing they can defeat the Shivans, despite all the evidence to the contrary from Capella.

Of course, actually convincing Steele would be pretty much impossible, but maybe there is a way.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 11, 2013, 12:19:43 pm
Here's a win scenario: Figure out how to tell Steele about the Shivan threat in a way that he'll believe. I doubt he'd continue if he knew for certain the Shivans would glass Earth because his side won.
But do we know that for certain ? Assuming Ken and the Shivans are a reliable source about the Shivans themselves sounds about as smart as believing the Vishnans a reliable source about the Vishnans themselves. Look where that led Sam...
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 11, 2013, 12:30:21 pm
 And yet that is all we have to go on. Unless a Brahman suddenly shows up or we get some totipotent plot twist such as the Ancients coming back from the dead with an armada, all we have is the dimutive's "word."
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Luis Dias on March 11, 2013, 12:46:54 pm
I'm much more interested in the Al Dawa figure right now, and what its nature tells us.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: qwadtep on March 11, 2013, 08:33:26 pm
Here's a win scenario: Figure out how to tell Steele about the Shivan threat in a way that he'll believe. I doubt he'd continue if he knew for certain the Shivans would glass Earth because his side won.
But do we know that for certain ? Assuming Ken and the Shivans are a reliable source about the Shivans themselves sounds about as smart as believing the Vishnans a reliable source about the Vishnans themselves. Look where that led Sam...
Difference is that Sam's head is so high in the clouds that he can't see the Vishnans eating his legs. Laporte actually realizes how insane the whole chosen one schtick is and just wants this freaky alien brain radio thing out of her head, which makes her the more reliable narrator.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Rodo on March 11, 2013, 11:30:30 pm
With an army of genetically enhanced flower girls from Earth.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Apollo on March 11, 2013, 11:58:40 pm
And the Shivans don't pretend to be benevolent.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: rubixcube on March 12, 2013, 12:46:51 am
What we heard in Universal truth (take 2) was probably more truthful than what we heard in AoA, though I doubt it was the whole truth. In act 4 or 5 we may get another incarnation of Universal truth that will reveal more
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: redsniper on March 12, 2013, 10:28:50 am
With an army of genetically enhanced flower girls from Earth.

I'm onboard with this. :yes:
Grab some transhuman/clone/augmented gef girls too for good measure. Actually this is starting to sound like the anime adaptation of BP... :nervous:
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 12, 2013, 12:25:58 pm
Please. We all know BP is already Evangelion in space. Just look at all the Shivan ship "names"! :p

 If there's ever another UT like level then screw it! I'll just stop playing and watch QD do it on Youtube. Three sleepless nights in a row were bad enough.

 Ahem. But from what we've heard, the UEF might have a trick up their sleeve: the Sun antimatter farm. Perhaps that's where Shambala is? It's practically impossible to get there (without dying) without the right jump vectors...
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: qwadtep on March 12, 2013, 04:09:47 pm
Actually this is starting to sound like the anime adaptation of BP... :nervous:
No, that's about the girls on the Solaris drinking tea and eating cake until the war's over.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Apollo on March 12, 2013, 04:47:07 pm
Actually this is starting to sound like the anime adaptation of BP... :nervous:
No, that's about the girls on the Solaris drinking tea and eating cake until the war's over.

Nope. That's the one where the Toutatis transforms into a giant robot and has like sixty-four beam cannons.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 12, 2013, 05:08:02 pm
All of first fleet combines into a single super ship.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Klaustrophobia on March 12, 2013, 05:21:48 pm
power rangers: BP?
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 12, 2013, 07:06:45 pm
Na, Toutatis-Tron. :D
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: rubixcube on March 12, 2013, 07:31:05 pm
well with axem on the BP team that's not completely impossible  ;7
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Piemanlives on March 13, 2013, 12:26:36 am
Our powers combined we are admiral steele?
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Veers on March 13, 2013, 01:12:47 am
Captain Laporte, She's our hero. (so on and so forth).

But as in the end of WiH 1. Should we be overjoyed or very very afraid of her?.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: desertstorm on March 13, 2013, 03:07:19 am
Captain Laporte, She's our hero. (so on and so forth).

But as in the end of WiH 1. Should we be overjoyed or very very afraid of her?.
both
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Flak on March 14, 2013, 10:44:59 pm
Just type 'Power Overwhelming' and i guess the game plays itself.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 14, 2013, 11:03:26 pm
 Funnily enough... Laporte is becoming a sort of singularity. It's like she just absorbs the characteristics of the people around her, making her seem almost infinitely mutable and adaptable... :nervous: :warp:
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Mars on March 15, 2013, 07:15:57 am
Not all the characters - just the ones she criticizes / wants to kill.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: MP-Ryan on March 15, 2013, 01:18:19 pm
The UEF can't win a conventional conflict, and doesn't need to.  I said it in the chivalry thread, but the way a lesser invaded power defeats a superpower is not through conventional force of arms, but by making even minute losses politically and socially unacceptable to their enemy.  It works in any scenario where the sides are lopsided.  It's why the US abandoned Vietnam, it's why the Russians abandoned Afghanistan, it's why the US will withdraw from Iraq, and its why NATO is withdrawing from Afghanistan.  Populations are not willing to accept individual losses in limited warfare.  They can accept larger losses in limited war, or individual losses in total war, but the converse is not true.  By way of example, what is putting NATO out of Afghanistan is a civilian/political belief in their home nations that the losses are unacceptable based on the nature of the conflict.  Despite the relatively few NATO casualties, our populations are unwilling to accept those individual stories of loss in this scenario.

In the context of BP, Laporte and her allies are trying to avert catastrophe on a much larger scale than the GTVA-UEF war.  To end that relatively minor conflict, all she needs to do is make the military option no longer acceptable to the GTVA.  She doesn't need to - and it would be counterproductive if she did - destroy large numbers of their forces or win an outright military victory.  In fact, all she really needs to do in this conflict is severely discredit the idea of war between the GTVA and the UEF, which is physically embodied in Admiral Steele.  Kill, capture, or discredit Steele and the war itself is over, particularly because of Khonsu's beliefs.  Steele IS the war for the GTVA.  His loss (death, capture, or discrediting) would be unacceptable to the social and political actors that are supporting the war back home and end the conflict immediately.  The GTVA is not willing to commit to a total war scenario, despite how this may look.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: -Sara- on March 16, 2013, 02:33:53 pm
I guess if all goes bad, whatever secret weapon the UEF has would be unleashed. My guts tell me something to destroy subspace, or something similarly horrible and irresponsible.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 16, 2013, 02:57:32 pm
Given that Shambala speaks of a hidden kingdom (in mythology) and a king or god coming to destroy all 'filth' in the world, I am inclined towards it being either a subspace portal, which might make use of the GTC Duke to call in the Vishnans, or a super duper subspace portal that can move the whole solar system. I acknowledge that the latter goes into Star Wars EU levels of stupid considering the tone of Blue Planet's story.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: a_b_c on March 16, 2013, 04:32:33 pm
Or it could be a forced mass upload into safe strata. 
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Drogoth on March 16, 2013, 08:09:59 pm
Given that Shambala speaks of a hidden kingdom (in mythology) and a king or god coming to destroy all 'filth' in the world, I am inclined towards it being either a subspace portal, which might make use of the GTC Duke to call in the Vishnans, or a super duper subspace portal that can move the whole solar system. I acknowledge that the latter goes into Star Wars EU levels of stupid considering the tone of Blue Planet's story.

Earth becomes Tarn Vedra mark 2? I just hope it doesn't turn out like Seefra.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 16, 2013, 09:21:03 pm
Or it could be a forced mass upload into safe strata.
How the heck do they do that? Shambala melts all the guns or something?
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: a_b_c on March 16, 2013, 10:00:01 pm
Or it could be a forced mass upload into safe strata.
How the heck do they do that? Shambala melts all the guns or something?

Shambhala forces a uplink to most or all of humanity, allowing transmission of everybody's consciousness to Nagari space, thereby escaping the Shivan threat once and for all. Possible upload destination would be the noosphere/panontos. In other words, bypassing Humanity's Nagari firewall. This would also explain any Vishnan opposition to Shambhala.

/rampant speculation
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: redsniper on March 16, 2013, 10:29:25 pm
and then the whole human race gets gobbled up by the Great Darkness. Way to go.... :shaking:
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: An4ximandros on March 16, 2013, 11:05:25 pm
 That awkward moment when the GD can swallow a Dante or a Preserver...

The Vishnan opposition to Shambala may simply be because as far as they are concerned, the UEF is a failure.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: Klaustrophobia on March 17, 2013, 01:08:03 am
Given that Shambala speaks of a hidden kingdom (in mythology) and a king or god coming to destroy all 'filth' in the world, I am inclined towards it being either a subspace portal, which might make use of the GTC Duke to call in the Vishnans, or a super duper subspace portal that can move the whole solar system. I acknowledge that the latter goes into Star Wars EU levels of stupid considering the tone of Blue Planet's story.

it's the ori supergate.  duh.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: HydroAmbience on March 17, 2013, 11:06:04 am
Well we will sure find out in the coming acts.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: SaltyWaffles on March 18, 2013, 12:26:53 am
That awkward moment when the GD can swallow a Dante or a Preserver...

The Vishnan opposition to Shambala may simply be because as far as they are concerned, the UEF is a failure.

Since when did the Vishnans oppose Shambala? They might deem the UEF a failure, but it's not like they specifically oppose Shambala. I mean, either Shambala's potential success isn't really a problem for the Vishnans (and they just believed that success to be extremely unlikely for the same reasons they believe the UEF to be a failure now), or if it is, the Vishnans should be directly intervening themselves (and killing ALL THE THINGS) before said success becomes a possibility. Or just using Nagari subversion to torpedo Shambala's chances of success. Since the middle possibility isn't happening and the third possibility doesn't seem to be either, I'm going with the first one.

I still have little idea what the GD actually *is*, let alone how the Shivans and Vishnans are supposed to fight it. The best I can gather is that it's indirect opposition, using their ships and tech to essentially quarantine the GD from spreading further via new (and vulnerable) species that reach a given threshold but do not meet specific criteria that prevents them from registering as an unacceptable threat to the quarantine.
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: ##UnknownPlayer## on March 18, 2013, 01:56:13 am
I seriously doubt Shambala is a super-weapon. Ubuntu philosophy by and large forgoes ultimate weapons, so it seems likely they're building something they think will side-step the problem. Throw me in with "it's a mass Nagari upload device" - it'd explain why one of the Elders broke ranks over it, if she didn't actually think it was a good idea or would work. I mean, mass consciousness merging is also effectively death for individuals.

It'd be consistent with Ubuntu being structured after Vishnan principles and they're whole apparent solution to the Great Darkness problem (building fortresses in subspace to try and resist it I guess).
Title: Re: How is the UEF going to win?
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 18, 2013, 03:14:33 am
Ubuntu philosophy by and large forgoes ultimate weapons
/me looks at the Vajradhara
 :nervous: