Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Thaeris on March 11, 2013, 03:46:16 pm
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After ordering 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition (http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/) and buying various instruments of domestic suppression (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1eIQilxVOo), one has to wonder what the Department of Homeland Security is up to. With the economy worsening, spending in places where no normal individual can concieve of in all honest logic, and increasing numbers of mandates coming down from the Federal level, what exactly is the United States government doing?
...And why are't officials either being fired or jailed, or both?
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Preparations for the new revolution that will happen during the economic crash, obviously.
This is just sad. "Oh we are loosing money? We could prevent a crash by not wasting money? BUY MORE USELESS ****!"
Let's not take the responsibility of fixing out ****, because **** that! Who puts effort in a government.
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The ammunition is irritatingly excessive but I can see how a few of the vehicles, especially if they where due to be recycled, could be used for border patrol. The cartels have access to some pretty nasty hardware so a pseudo APC would be useful. Of course a couple thousand of them again shows a pathetic amount of profligacy.
Though the comments in the video where the crazies seriously discuss how they could effectively deal with them are equal parts hilarious and disturbing in their own right.
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Maybe they're gearing up to invade and occupy North and South America?
In one glorious blue-shirted swoop we get oil reserves, NHS adminstrators and a jungle war against South American Cartels.
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After ordering 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition and buying various instruments of domestic suppression, one has to wonder what the Department of Homeland Security is up to. With the economy worsening, spending in places where no normal individual can concieve of in all honest logic, and increasing numbers of mandates coming down from the Federal level, what exactly is the United States government doing?
I'll admit I'm pretty economically cloistered, but literally all of the economic news I've seen in the past few months aside from the sequester was that the US economy is doing a lot better than it has been at any point in the past couple years, and is on the way to recovery. If anything I agree with StarSlayer, this is just a precaution against any cartel violence spilling over the border, though a bit much. On the bright side I guess they won't need to be buying ammunition any time soon. But I honestly think it's absurd that they would take action against US citizens. If you're worried about oppression, worry about media neutrality and censorship before you worry about the black helicopters trucks.
...And why are't officials either being fired or jailed, or both?
For what, doing their job?
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The Gestapo only wish they drove around in vehicles that cool.
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Speaking as a UK resident so relatively ignorant of some of these things but.
how many if any armed federal agencies source consumables/parts/equipment through homeland rather than independently?
secondly the vehicle shown in the vid looks fairly typical (from what I have seen on TV) of those used by SWAT/Rapid Entry teams to conduct hazardous operations such as warrents/raids on property where the occupants are likely to respond with weapons.
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I just want to throw this out there - consider this thought experiment:
I'm not sure what model of MRAP they've got, but it's fairly large. Let's assume its model that can carry at least 6 troops. Add the operators at the front, and you have a total capacity at least 8.
There are over 2700 vehicles that were ordered. 8*2700 = 21600 men. If we consider the typical definition of a battalion, that will be 1200 men.
21600/1200 = 18. The DHS can supply mechanization to 18 battalions of troops.
I'm not sure how bad the drug war is, if that is the justification for MRAPs, but I do not understand why the National Gaurd, who is equipped already for mechanized warfare, must step aside for the DHS, which did not exist before 2001. There's very little rational reason for the expansion of the DHS.
*EDIT:
One last simple figure. If one considers a fully mobilized battallion, 1200/8 = 150 vehicles per battallion. Now, according to current US Army listings, my number (thank you, Wikipedia) for troops in a battallion is too high. Set the number to 600, and the numbers of battalions double while the numbers of vehicles per battalion are halved.
Thus you have resources for 36 battalions, each with 600 troops and access to 75 vehicles at full deployment.
Figures for estimate: http://www.army.mil/info/organization/unitsandcommands/oud/
Finally, I wasn't able to find a modern FM as of yet that lists the number of vehicles (and types of vehicles) in a modern US mech. infantry battalion (for the purposes of this comparison). Certainly, there will (or would) be other types as well if such a structure was implemented with the DHS, but the fact remains that the DHS has secured enough vehicles to fully mechanize a division OR MORE of fully armed troops in North America.
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Well for one thing, the home guard are an army unit. Fighting with the cartels on American soil is and should always remain the job of law enforcement.
In general, when the army start doing police work, bad things happen. Those two are not meant to have the same job.
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The border may be considered an area subject to the national defence. Prior to 2001, we had all the resources we needed deal with that sort of problem. How do you logically justify this type of domestic, non-military expansion with this quantity of military equipment?
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a few quotes from wikipedia
The nearly 2,000-mile (3,169 km or 1,969 miles) international border
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There are currently 45 U.S.–Mexico border crossings with 330 ports of entry
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Over five million cars and trucks travel through the border annually.
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The border is guarded by more than twenty thousand border patrol agents
However they only have "effective control" of less than 700 miles (1,100 km) of the 1,954 miles (3,145 km) of total border,[17] with an ability to actually prevent or stop illegal entries along 129 miles (208 km) of that border.
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There are an estimated half a million illegal entries into the United States each year.
so yes while big numbers are involved in the DHS purchace, in the grand scheme of things its not all that excessive,
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I'm not sure how bad the drug war is, if that is the justification for MRAPs
Mexico is more dangerous than, say, Iraq before US troops left. Large portions of the country pass into and out of government control on a regular basis. Government troops engage in firefights with cartel members employing everything from small arms to technicals and RPGs.
, but I do not understand why the National Gaurd, who is equipped already for mechanized warfare, must step aside for the DHS, which did not exist before 2001.
Posse Comitatus. It is not permitted under United States law for the military to engage in law enforcement or even disaster relief without the express request of state governments. You're clearly not a resident of a wildfire state or you'd know this from the knock-down drag-outs that occur whenever somebody's slow to request military resources during a major wildfire. (And while I arguably got married as a result of the mishandling of the Witch Creek Fire, keeping the several thousand trained firefighters of Navy Region Southwest out wasn't very amusing to people whose stuff got burned, including my future wife.)
Soldiers are not police. They are not meant to be used as police. They are a far blunter instrument; witness the last period the National Guard was used for border duties.
While a fascinating study in your paranoia, this doommongering has all the critical thinking and analysis of the FEMA concentration camps. Which is to say, none.
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The opening post and topic title really lend themselves well to making this look like conspiracy time is rolling around again.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbfjxjpKoR8
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The ammunition purchase is not that big of a deal. It's a contract that will last many years, and the supplier will simply be called upon to provide whatever amount the DHS requests at a given time up to the total. It's nothing but a bulk, long-term, at-will supply agreement. It might take two or three decades to fulfill the total purchase. This is just the way the government buys things.
The MRAPs on the other hand, that's a bit odd. I'd like to just chalk it up to using old military equipment for the sake of cost-cutting, but it seems a bit overboard. There's a large stock of them without a clear use now that we've left Iraq, and are leaving Afghanistan. I'm afraid it's just another step toward having a scary paramilitary federal police.
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The opening post and topic title really lend themselves well to making this look like conspiracy time is rolling around again.
I figured it was another est1895 thread by the title...
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The MRAPs on the other hand, that's a bit odd. I'd like to just chalk it up to using old military equipment for the sake of cost-cutting, but it seems a bit overboard. There's a large stock of them without a clear use now that we've left Iraq, and are leaving Afghanistan.
Oooh, I wonder if they're street-legal...
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Oooh, I wonder if they're stree-legal...
Technically yes. Marine LAVs are as well.
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Mexico is more dangerous than, say, Iraq before US troops left. Large portions of the country pass into and out of government control on a regular basis. Government troops engage in firefights with cartel members employing everything from small arms to technicals and RPGs.
Wow wow wow wait what?
What did I miss? I keep hearing about bombings in Iraq, I only hear a few things about mass murders in Mexico. What's happening over there?
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Mexico is more dangerous than, say, Iraq before US troops left. Large portions of the country pass into and out of government control on a regular basis. Government troops engage in firefights with cartel members employing everything from small arms to technicals and RPGs.
Wow wow wow wait what?
What did I miss? I keep hearing about bombings in Iraq, I only hear a few things about mass murders in Mexico. What's happening over there?
kidnappings and gun violence are the main ones
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Well, there aren't any American soldiers deployed to Mexico, so there's no way to make any news about Americans dying because of reckless, interventionist America acting as the world's police force.
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Well, there aren't any American soldiers deployed to Mexico, so there's no way to make any news about Americans dying
You should have stopped there.
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What did I miss? I keep hearing about bombings in Iraq, I only hear a few things about mass murders in Mexico. What's happening over there?
The breakdown of any ability to enforce the law due to systemic corruption, mainly. The cops got bought off, so they used the army for a decade, but the army's been bought off, so now they're down to using their navy for the critical tasks and a lot of praying that the army unit they sent in for xyz is reasonably honest.
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EDIT: Entirely differnet post since that other one should not have been posted
What did I miss? I keep hearing about bombings in Iraq, I only hear a few things about mass murders in Mexico. What's happening over there?
The breakdown of any ability to enforce the law due to systemic corruption, mainly. The cops got bought off, so they used the army for a decade, but the army's been bought off, so now they're down to using their navy for the critical tasks and a lot of praying that the army unit they sent in for xyz is reasonably honest.
Oh ffs. I knew it was bad, but I did not know it had degraded to that point. It's very strange though, you'd dthink you hear more about a country that is becoming an anarchy.
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Only if the people who tell you stuff want you to know about it. Reporting on Mexico must not serve the news media's interests right now, or at least not be a priority.
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... It's very strange though, you'd think you hear more about a country that is becoming an anarchy.
It doesn't sell, because the consumers do not care. Just like Africa, Asia, South America...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbfjxjpKoR8
WeAreChange are idiots, you shouldn't listen to them.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbfjxjpKoR8
WeAreChange are idiots, you shouldn't listen to them.
Maybe everyone is an idoit, and no one should listen to anyone else.
Snarky comments aside, I think the video illustrates part of the problem with the ordeal in question quite well.