Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Apollo on March 11, 2013, 04:10:55 pm
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I'm really sick of all this bullying coverage. The people who try to stop it are just a bunch of adults with good intentions who fail to understand the intricacies of the situation. Nearly every teenager is a bully, and those who aren't occupy the very bottom of the social ladder, where they get picked on by all the nerds who lack the self-confidence to pick on anybody else. It can never be stopped, because it's an inherent human trait, regardless of social ability or intelligence, and being essentially immature adults teenagers are particularly fond of this activity.
I know a kid who has on occasion been the victim of bullying. There are also many times when he's ganged up on others with the very same people that pick on him. He's extremely hypocritical and insecure, excusing his behavior as "joking" but being very easily offended himself. The rest of my "friends" lack his insecurity but are still quite mean to others.
Seriously, why do people assume that most kids are nice? Most kids are mean and perfectly willing to prey on the weak, who in turn bully kids with even less self-confidence than them. I can't claim to be an exception; I've done the very same thing.
Of course, none of this makes bullying acceptable, but its existence is a hard reality that nobody can change.
I'm in high school, so I feel qualified to comment on this.
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I have never bullied anyone while in (high) school. So I must be either a mutation or some eldritch aberration. My father always said I should just go and "punch the bully so he won't mess with you (me)." I never did. I never could dare to treat someone in the exact opposite way I wished to be treated. And you know what? I endured that **** for nearly 4 years of my childhood. I never gave in and I never will. I am better than that. And the teachers who never did anything after I told them? I don't even care anymore. I am past all that.
My point is: yes, children can be dicks, you can either play alpha wolf or omega wolf. And I endured the omega, willingly. Something which I outlasted through sheer willpower. It makes me better than the typical bullies you hear about.
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I have never bullied anyone while in (high) school. So I must be either a mutation or some eldritch aberration. My father always said I should just go and "punch the bully so he won't mess with you (me)." I never did. I never could dare to treat someone in the exact opposite way I wished to be treated. And you know what? I endured that **** for nearly 4 years of my childhood. I never gave in and I never will. I am better than that. And the teachers who never did anything after I told them? I don't even care anymore. I am past all that.
My point is: yes, children can be dicks, you can either play alpha wolf or omega wolf. And I endured the omega, willingly. Something which I outlasted through sheer willpower. It makes me better than the typical bullies you hear about.
Not an aberration, just an exception. Unfortunately, ninety percent of the kids I know don't have that mindset.
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Pretty much all bull****. I'm sorry Apollo, if you were a bully then that's what it was.
Bullying isn't something that is "inevitable" nor "genetic". It is something that is either socially acceptable or not. In your case, I'd guess it was an accepted reality by everyone involved. I've heard that this problem is endemic in America, for example. However, the existence of thousands of counter-examples of other cultures having a deeply ingrained behavior of not bullying shows that this is a solvable problem. It may be very hard to change a culture like that, but to call out the discussion as being stupid a priori is.... ****ing stupid.
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Pretty much all bull****. I'm sorry Apollo, if you were a bully then that's what it was.
Bullying isn't something that is "inevitable" nor "genetic". It is something that is either socially acceptable or not. In your case, I'd guess it was an accepted reality by everyone involved. I've heard that this problem is endemic in America, for example. However, the existence of thousands of counter-examples of other cultures having a deeply ingrained behavior of not bullying shows that this is a solvable problem. It may be very hard to change a culture like that, but to call out the discussion as being stupid a priori is.... ****ing stupid.
The desire to dominate others is a natural human trait, as we can see from nearly every civilization that has ever existed. Bullying is simply one manifestation of it; imperialism and authoritarianism are others, and they are all related.
My perspective may be skewed because I live in America, where in my experience bullies are everywhere. What are these counter-examples you mention?
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I have never bullied anyone while in (high) school. So I must be either a mutation or some eldritch aberration. My father always said I should just go and "punch the bully so he won't mess with you (me)." I never did. I never could dare to treat someone in the exact opposite way I wished to be treated. And you know what? I endured that **** for nearly 4 years of my childhood. I never gave in and I never will. I am better than that. And the teachers who never did anything after I told them? I don't even care anymore. I am past all that.
My point is: yes, children can be dicks, you can either play alpha wolf or omega wolf. And I endured the omega, willingly. Something which I outlasted through sheer willpower. It makes me better than the typical bullies you hear about.
Pretty much this. I was bullied for tons of reasons as well, but I never bullied anyone else. That sort of behaviour is despicable. I distanced myself from the people who did it and endured it when there was no getting out of it. I stood up for myself at times (verbally), and when that didn't work, the school system didn't help me either. Just because something's "natural" doesn't make it okay. We're not primitives.
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Pretty much all bull****. I'm sorry Apollo, if you were a bully then that's what it was.
Bullying isn't something that is "inevitable" nor "genetic". It is something that is either socially acceptable or not. In your case, I'd guess it was an accepted reality by everyone involved. I've heard that this problem is endemic in America, for example. However, the existence of thousands of counter-examples of other cultures having a deeply ingrained behavior of not bullying shows that this is a solvable problem. It may be very hard to change a culture like that, but to call out the discussion as being stupid a priori is.... ****ing stupid.
The desire to dominate others is a natural human trait, as we can see from nearly every civilization that has ever existed. Bullying is simply one manifestation of it; imperialism and authoritarianism are others, and they are all related.
Yeah, except we don't live in a dictatorship anymore, now do we? It may well be the case that these "traits" are genetic, but they aren't deterministic. At all. As I said, counter examples abound.
My perspective may be skewed because I live in America, where in my experience bullies are everywhere. What are these counter-examples you mention?
I have a bird's eye view of this because I have experienced "both worlds". I did experience 4 years of a culture completely lacking any kind of bullying at all in my infancy. And then I experienced 4 years of astonishing levels of bullying. The kids weren't that different. However, the culture was a completely different one, what was innacceptable in one was deemed innocent in the other. Where one school was capable of exerting its authority, the other had practically given up.
I haven't all the answers, but the question of the inevitability of bullying seems a trivial one: no, it's not inevitable. If you are to say that the solutions are not trivial due to the factors involved being very deep (cultural, parenting, social alienation due to urbanization, etc.,etc.,etc.) I'm with you. No they aren't easy. To say that the conversation itself is inane and dumb is however a step backwards. What a waste! What a way to give up before even starting.
Yes, bullying is a big problem, yes, we should have this conversation, and yes we should try to solve it.
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I think I've raised this point before but it can be said again. The modern day bully has a distinct advantage that didn't exist in the past in the social network. Victims aren't just bullied in schools or other public places but in their homes as well. The social network also makes it easier for group-think bullying situations to occur. A number of high profile bullying related suicides has drawn a lot of attention to bullying and cyber-bullying in particular in last few years hence the attention it is getting.
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Pretty much all bull****. I'm sorry Apollo, if you were a bully then that's what it was.
Bullying isn't something that is "inevitable" nor "genetic". It is something that is either socially acceptable or not. In your case, I'd guess it was an accepted reality by everyone involved. I've heard that this problem is endemic in America, for example. However, the existence of thousands of counter-examples of other cultures having a deeply ingrained behavior of not bullying shows that this is a solvable problem. It may be very hard to change a culture like that, but to call out the discussion as being stupid a priori is.... ****ing stupid.
The desire to dominate others is a natural human trait, as we can see from nearly every civilization that has ever existed. Bullying is simply one manifestation of it; imperialism and authoritarianism are others, and they are all related.
Yeah, except we don't live in a dictatorship anymore, now do we? It may well be the case that these "traits" are genetic, but they aren't deterministic. At all. As I said, counter examples abound.
My perspective may be skewed because I live in America, where in my experience bullies are everywhere. What are these counter-examples you mention?
I have a bird's eye view of this because I have experienced "both worlds". I did experience 4 years of a culture completely lacking any kind of bullying at all in my infancy. And then I experienced 4 years of astonishing levels of bullying. The kids weren't that different. However, the culture was a completely different one, what was innacceptable in one was deemed innocent in the other. Where one school was capable of exerting its authority, the other had practically given up.
I haven't all the answers, but the question of the inevitability of bullying seems a trivial one: no, it's not inevitable. If you are to say that the solutions are not trivial due to the factors involved being very deep (cultural, parenting, social alienation due to urbanization, etc.,etc.,etc.) I'm with you. No they aren't easy. To say that the conversation itself is inane and dumb is however a step backwards. What a waste! What a way to give up before even starting.
Yes, bullying is a big problem, yes, we should have this conversation, and yes we should try to solve it.
Wow, really? You lived in a culture with no bullying? That actually makes me feel relieved.
I spend first through eight grade in a small school that was completely dominated by one clique. Everybody was a member of it, and if you weren't strong enough your "friends" would trash you mercilessly. This wasn't exactly a normal environment, but my experiences around kids from other schools and stories I heard on the news led me to the conclusion that bullying was an inescapable fact of life.
If what you say is true than it completely changes beliefs I have held since eighth grade.
I think I've raised this point before but it can be said again. The modern day bully has a distinct advantage that didn't exist in the past in the social network. Victims aren't just bullied in schools or other public places but in their homes as well. The social network also makes it easier for group-think bullying situations to occur. A number of high profile bullying related suicides has drawn a lot of attention to bullying and cyber-bullying in particular in last few years hence the attention it is getting.
That's exactly why I don't have a Facebook account. I've managed to avoid bullying in high school by not joining any group or making myself stand out in any way, and social media would attract a lot of unwanted attention.
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Society change all the time, in every way, Apollo. It's conceivable that it could change with bullying, too.
Here's some anecdotal evidence. I've noticed that the kids who were bullies at school had parents who were also pretty much bullies. Obviously their parents were more refined in their bullying, being adults and all. But in the end, the kids were very much like their parents.
So if the parents' values and opinions can change (parents being the general public), then their offspring might be better people too.
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People don't pick on crazy people
Make yourself out to be the guy who will pull off a school shooting, and people simply put, don't **** with you
The highschool I went to actually involved the students in the campaign to stop bullymongs (to a great deal of success). On the Anti-Bullying day our school had setup, we'd all wear pink in support of that
You'd be surprised what can happen when you get the Seniors involved in this sort of thing. Lower grades look at them and follow suit
That's most apparent when a senior stands up for someone being utilized as a proverbial punching bag. Adults talking about it and trying to make awareness about it doesn't do anything. Action from the very students who go through it does
When that was implemented at our school, I saw a whole lot less of the crap that went on when I first went there. Generally the Grade Eights came in gung ho, but realized they're complete tools shortly after.
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Now I whole heartedly agree middle school was a pain in the ass, you either had all your **** together or you were screwed. At that point nobody really had any cliques to roll with so either you were cool or the teamless masses of unorganized fodder. My interests tended towards the uncool and I had some ADD issues that made me impulsive and sometimes a little awkward. Even then it was never particularly vicious or driven to the point of really screwing anyone over.
Granted my experience was before the social networking took off but by high school bullying was no longer really a mainstream thing. Aside from a few socially inept folks pretty much everybody had a clique and those groups rarely came into any sort of conflict. By that time I had pretty much quashed all the ADD issues and I played football and wrestled in so I hung out mainly with my friends from sports. We generally got along with everybody and none of us intentionally picked on anybody, I doubt it would have been tolerated by the group anyway. There wasn't really an active campaign but similar to what deathfun pointed out as a freshmen upperclassmen didn't pick on you so when you became seniors you in turn didn't bother the younger students. As a freshmen I knew enough upperclassmen through sports that would have stepped in if I were being picked on. In sports some folks would catch flak occasionally for things but it was nearly always a reaction for doing something dumb and more to the point repeatedly doing dumb things.
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Bullying is a scourge that must be eradicated.
When you find out someone has either ended their life or been murdered or crippled by bullies, so often it's a bright, intelligent, friendly person who wouldn't hurt anyone, who would have gone on to become a valuable member of society. You see their picture, and you can just feel that they were a good person. And in turn this discourages others from trying to be intelligent, it puts a stigma on intelligence and achievement or being different from the very start of life, when these people are exactly what society needs. And schools also pander to the people who don't give a crap, when they should be nurturing those who actually want to learn and make something of their life. Others won't kill themselves but will have their confidence and self-esteem shattered and not perform anywhere near as well as they would have in life if they'd been left alone, or better yet, encouraged and nurtured.
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I'm in high school, so I feel qualified to comment on this.
I hate to say it, but I think this actually makes you unqualified in a certain sense, since you only have your own limited experiences and perspective to draw on. The thing about our brains when we're teens is that we can often find it difficult to look beyond what we're going through at the moment...that's one of the things that makes bullying such a risk factor for teens, since they find it hard to see how their situation could possibly improve in the future, and it's also the reason for the implementation of the "It gets better" campaign.
Bullying's certainly a serious and widespread problem, but I don't think it's nearly as universal as you claim, at least not based on my own experience going to school in the US. There were one or two instances I can think of where I had bullying issues in grades 1-8, and a couple others where I was ignorantly caught up in bullying someone else, but by and large I didn't experience anything widespread, and our school generally ran a tight ship. I had pretty much zero experience with bullying in high school, and I never observed any sort of widespread clique issues...hell, I was friendly with people in all sorts of groups. Bullying is a hard problem to eradicate, but certainly far from impossible, and creating an environment where it can't thrive is completely doable.
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i was bullied, once. its amazing what kind of damage you can do with a plastic spork.
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Is that you, Nuke? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y)
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Bullies at my elementary/middle school were so stupid that they even failed at bullying. They were amusing until they got annoying, and by then I had about a month left in there, so I left them live. Though they did gave me a sort of "high lord of Poland" complex I had to get rid of in high school. Basically, I meet too many bugs early in my life and only a few humans (all of them girls), where my high school was pretty much all humans. That took some time to get used to.
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I was bullied from age 12 to 18 on two different schools, sadly this isnt something limited to american culture.
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Bullying is not the odd comment, or fight, or altercation. Bullying is a chronic, persistent behaviour designed to demean another person and gain in social status of the self. It is targeted and intentional. Apollo seems to misunderstand the difference between bullying and normal human disagreement/aggression.
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If ten people repeatedly ganging up on one person and laughing at their pain isn't bullying then I don't know what is.
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Bullying is not the odd comment, or fight, or altercation. Bullying is a chronic, persistent behaviour designed to demean another person and gain in social status of the self. It is targeted and intentional. Apollo seems to misunderstand the difference between bullying and normal human disagreement/aggression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfVFe5CMSXQ
Great video about this
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Interesting video.
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Here's how I see it:
I went to a good school, because I was one of the "cool" kids. There was always a crew of people who were unpopular. If someone made a demeaning joke about someone else, sometimes I'd laugh. I wouldn't hang out with them even if they specifically asked me, despite being friends in class. I still don't reply to 90% of the hellos one guy says on steam chat because he's gay. I don't consider myself a bully because I never go out and try to put someone down. But it isn't the one guy who makes a joke at your expense, the one girl who calls you by a degrading nickname, or the one time you get beaten up because that dickhead is actually a blackbelt, no it's the bystanders who make your life a misery. Everyone looks down on you and views you as an acceptable target, and those people who don't think about you are worse than those who actively degrade you.
It is so, so easy to ignore someone, laugh at a joke or avoid someone, yet multiply it by many people and suddenly someone feels, quite rightly, that the world is against them.
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That Killer Whale's post is so full of wrong that I won't even bother.
Really, you don't reply to people because they're gay? WTF man grow the **** up.
And you actually believe bystanders are worse than the beating bully? JFC.
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Maybe I'm reading it too optimistically, but it sounds like Killer Whale is criticizing himself for contributing to the culture of bullying.
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Maybe I'm reading it too optimistically, but it sounds like Killer Whale is criticizing himself for contributing to the culture of bullying.
That's how I saw it too
And you actually believe bystanders are worse than the beating bully?
Actually it makes sense. If the bystanders did something about the bully, there wouldn't be much of a bully now would there. Afterall, by not doing anything, you're effectively encouraging the behaviour instead of stopping it.
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Maybe I'm reading it too optimistically, but it sounds like Killer Whale is criticizing himself for contributing to the culture of bullying.
Yeah, I got that feeling too. There's just something rather... self-deprecatory about it.
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Maybe I'm reading it too optimistically, but it sounds like Killer Whale is criticizing himself for contributing to the culture of bullying.
Absolutely. These interactions are such a small part of my life that it's very easy to get them wrong. By not thinking about someone else's point of view I can, as you say, contribute to putting down a person. What I'm trying to say is if it was only the bullies putting you down and everyone else smiled, would be happy to hang out with you and pointed out the pettiness in a bully's actions there and then, your life would be a hell of a lot easier. But those people who don't realise that being unpopular isn't innate add up slowly to make life terrible, more than the active bully themselves.
Yes, a degree of homophobia is one of my greatest faults (well, I can't think of a bigger one), though it's far better than a couple of years ago when I was proudly homophobic. By saying I don't talk to him because of it is simplifying the issue. He was unpopular long before he was gay, and we used to have interesting discussions over steam chat (after he was "out"). But after he left the one class I had with him, whenever he messaged "hi" I'd feel that I really couldn't be bothered having this discussion and pretend I hadn't seen it. It was more because I was/am lazy, and no one really cared he was gay anyway, but I believe that if he was a popular, straight guy I would've been more inclined to keep it up, and hence I was in some way bullying my own friend.
No one says that I have a mean bone in my body, but I know I haven't got the hang of looking at other's points of view and those little things I don't think about can be really degrading to people.
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Yep. Bullies gain most of their power from the backing of the majority.
I don't have any moral objection to homosexuality, but I would still be uncomfortable around a gay man. This isn't just homophobia, though—I have a great fear that my lack of bigotry will lead to me being called gay.
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Meanwhile, when someone calls me gay, I offer to suck their dick for money
That generally ensues in hilarity and them not knowing how to respond
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I don't have any moral objection to homosexuality, but I would still be uncomfortable around a gay man. This isn't just homophobia, though—I have a great fear that my lack of bigotry will lead to me being called gay.
That's...pretty much the definition of homophobia. :p Why would it be a big deal if someone called you gay? And more importantly, who gives a **** about the opinion of anyone who'd call you "gay" in that context in the first place?
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Well, it's a different kind of homophobia. There are people who hate/are afraid of gays because gayness itself somehow offends them. What we have here is a fear of stigma associated with being gay. People generally prefer to associate with the majority. Since homophobia is considered "normal" in many places, people who have nothing against gays still (usually subconsciously) pretend to in order to fit in. I experienced that myself, despite the fact I'm not gay, I've found that one can fall victim to this simply by being different in any noticeable way.
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I was bullied in high school, at it took me beating the **** out of the worst of them to get the others to finally leave me alone. That experience, more than any other, is what taught me that the adage "violence doesn't solve anything" is complete and utter bull****.
Sucks being a science-fiction fan in a school small enough that you're pretty much the only one in your age group.
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I don't have any moral objection to homosexuality, but I would still be uncomfortable around a gay man. This isn't just homophobia, though—I have a great fear that my lack of bigotry will lead to me being called gay.
That's...pretty much the definition of homophobia. :p Why would it be a big deal if someone called you gay? And more importantly, who gives a **** about the opinion of anyone who'd call you "gay" in that context in the first place?
If people seriously thought I was gay I'd lose almost all of my friends (only two of them don't hate gays) and my social status would be ruined for the rest of high school. I've also never had a girlfriend, which would in their minds be evidence of that.
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I don't have any moral objection to homosexuality, but I would still be uncomfortable around a gay man. This isn't just homophobia, though—I have a great fear that my lack of bigotry will lead to me being called gay.
That's...pretty much the definition of homophobia. :p Why would it be a big deal if someone called you gay? And more importantly, who gives a **** about the opinion of anyone who'd call you "gay" in that context in the first place?
If people seriously thought I was gay I'd lose almost all of my friends (only two of them don't hate gays) and my social status would be ruined for the rest of high school. I've also never had a girlfriend, which would in their minds be evidence of that.
I have to agree with this. I'm not, but I've been taken for gay at school before, and even attacked because of it. I think the reason for it must be because it took me a long while to learn what the word actually means, I think I was in year 7 when I finally found out what it means so when people asked if I was gay, I said I was, because I thought they were asking if I was happy. I think it must have spread and followed me right through school. It really didn't do me any favours.
So here's a tip from one who knows all about it if you people ever have kids - teach them what the word "gay" means early! I told A LOT of people I was gay. I imagine word must have spread and they came to ask me themselves, and I told them, because loads of people asked me if I was gay, and I told them all I was.
Ignorance is not bliss.
What you don't know CAN hurt you.
It is funny to think back though on the occasions I returned the question.
PERSON: "Are you gay?"
ME: "Yes. Are you?"
THEM: "No."
ME: "Why?"
THEM: *looks at me funny*
ME: *confused*
THEM: *walks away*
ME: *confused* "huh, whatever... now where was I..." *carries on with whatever I was doing and forgets all about it*
:lol:
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Well, it's a different kind of homophobia. There are people who hate/are afraid of gays because gayness itself somehow offends them. What we have here is a fear of stigma associated with being gay. People generally prefer to associate with the majority. Since homophobia is considered "normal" in many places, people who have nothing against gays still (usually subconsciously) pretend to in order to fit in. I experienced that myself, despite the fact I'm not gay, I've found that one can fall victim to this simply by being different in any noticeable way.
Homophobiaphobia?
If people seriously thought I was gay I'd lose almost all of my friends (only two of them don't hate gays) and my social status would be ruined for the rest of high school. I've also never had a girlfriend, which would in their minds be evidence of that.
I find it hard to understand your position, because I live in an enviroment where gayness is accepted. Gay men are just like men, except that they like men, in which they are like girls. Nothing wrong with that.
It depends really on what kind of friends you have. I personally feel that if you have a good set of friends, and it would turn out that you are actually really gay, some of them might actually change their opinion about gayness, since you are probably an alright kind of guy. Perhaps your current social status can act as a catalyst, if it would indeed turn out to be the case.
Off course, it is pretty obvious now that you are not gay - in which case, your interactions with potential gay people should not matter to anyone, as you are not hitting on them or anything.
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If people seriously thought I was gay I'd lose almost all of my friends (only two of them don't hate gays) and my social status would be ruined for the rest of high school. I've also never had a girlfriend, which would in their minds be evidence of that.
Maybe it's time to ask yourself if those are really friends? A true friend is someone who's going to stand by you whether you're straight or gay - or whether people think you are or aren't. What you have there are pack mates - they'll tolerate you as long as you don't step out of line; but as you said yourself, you're worried about their reactions if you did. That's not friendship at all. And frankly, as you grow older you'll hopefully learn to stop giving a **** what people like that think of you. I know it can seem intimidating, going against the flow, and not caring what others will think of you. But do it long enough and you might actually earn some respect from people who deserve it back. What you have now isn't friendship or respect - it's merely acceptance from members of the pack too chicken**** to stand for correct beliefs because they might lose social points. People who end up being worth the air the breathe tend to learn to look past that as they grow up.
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People who end up being worth the air the breathe tend to learn to look past that as they grow up.
And there are more of those people then you think.
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I don't like it, but the school he goes to sounds terrible. It sounds more like he has to do these things to survive, rather than he values these people as friends, though I'm not sure. The schools I went to were not bad compared to what I've heard about from city schools, yet there was still a decent amount of homophobia and bulllying going on. Most people were not bullies/homophobes, but the teachers at all the schools I went to were mostly absolutely useless at controlling bullies or even their own classrooms. I'm just thankful we didn't have any gang problems, but bullies pretty much had a free hand to do whatever they wanted. Teachers usually took the easy way out and punished victims for causing trouble if they complained rather than tackling the bullies.
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What newman said. Everytime someone (not necesarily a "friend") shouts a funny calling me a gay, I'll always offer them a blowjob or smth, and the escalation between the attempt to "shame" and my gay act sometimes reach really hilarious levels. Eventually however, they'll leave me alone, defeated, confused as to why the "shaming" never clicked. The obvious rarely reaches their minds: there would be nothing to be ashamed of.
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I don't like it, but the school he goes to sounds terrible. It sounds more like he has to do these things to survive, rather than he values these people as friends, though I'm not sure.
I find myself surprised to agree with you, but yeah. Some school districts are almost completely socially conservative that stuff like this can easily happen. A friend of mine went to high school in an impoverished rural western Michigan community and the school had to cancel an anti-bullying campaign after the students started protesting because it was meant to stop the bullying of gays. Obviously I'd wager this isn't the norm, but it happens and I'm willing to bet this is the sort of situation that Apollo is in. He's tacitly promoting bullying by not doing anything I guess, but I don't know if there'd be anything he could do.
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I don't like it, but the school he goes to sounds terrible. It sounds more like he has to do these things to survive, rather than he values these people as friends, though I'm not sure.
I find myself surprised to agree with you, but yeah. Some school districts are almost completely socially conservative that stuff like this can easily happen. A friend of mine went to high school in an impoverished rural western Michigan community and the school had to cancel an anti-bullying campaign after the students started protesting because it was meant to stop the bullying of gays. Obviously I'd wager this isn't the norm, but it happens and I'm willing to bet this is the sort of situation that Apollo is in. He's tacitly promoting bullying by not doing anything I guess, but I don't know if there'd be anything he could do.
Bullying and even sexual harassment occurred openly in many classrooms at school for me. Bullies didn't need to go to any effort at all to be bullies except with a few teachers who wouldn't have it. The other teachers just didn't want to know. Most of them were just picking up a paycheque. But my school seems like a paradise compared to what Apollo describes.
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Bullying is just the normal human dominance struggle in grade school. After that either it becomes the more passive aggressive "power struggling" if you're in a white collar job or "Yo, Romi and Evan are going to fight each other after their shift" if you're in a more blue collar setting. Just people being people - adults should just find ways to empower the lower dominance individuals so that things don't get so out of hand.
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I think it's problematic to normalize it. I don't think it's a necessary and inevitable emergent product of basic human processes.
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I think it's problematic to normalize it. I don't think it's a necessary and inevitable emergent product of basic human processes.
Aren't similar things apparent in every other social animal though? Chimpanzees, wolves and the like. (ants are a bit different)
EDIT: This is a layman talking, I'm genuinely curious - not trying to be argumentative.
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I think it's problematic to normalize it. I don't think it's a necessary and inevitable emergent product of basic human processes.
Certainly not mine. Bullying disgusts me and always has from my very youngest years to now.
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I think it's problematic to normalize it. I don't think it's a necessary and inevitable emergent product of basic human processes.
Aren't similar things apparent in every other social animal though? Chimpanzees, wolves and the like. (ants are a bit different)
EDIT: This is a layman talking, I'm genuinely curious - not trying to be argumentative.
Dominance structures, maybe, but I am criticizing the notion that bullying is a necessary and inevitable expression of dominance hierarchies.
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I don't like it, but the school he goes to sounds terrible. It sounds more like he has to do these things to survive, rather than he values these people as friends, though I'm not sure. The schools I went to were not bad compared to what I've heard about from city schools, yet there was still a decent amount of homophobia and bulllying going on. Most people were not bullies/homophobes, but the teachers at all the schools I went to were mostly absolutely useless at controlling bullies or even their own classrooms. I'm just thankful we didn't have any gang problems, but bullies pretty much had a free hand to do whatever they wanted. Teachers usually took the easy way out and punished victims for causing trouble if they complained rather than tackling the bullies.
I don't actually have to contend with any bullying at the moment. However, I hear a lot of kids talking crap behind each other's backs, there's been a whole bunch of fighting this year, and as they have demonstrated on several occasions my friends are no nicer than they were in middle school.
Speaking of that, my middle school was horrible. It had less than two hundred students, which meant that one clique dominated everything and tore its weaker members apart on a daily basis. In sixth grade I was perfectly happy to participate in it, and in seventh grade I was self-righteous prick who went off on his friends for dumb reasons. In the first semester of eighth grade I was targeted by the clique leader and a few of his friends subordinates, and this made me regret my past behavior. At this point I have completely lost all respect for them and I'm mad at myself for doing the same thing.
Here are some of the nice things they've done:
- Bullied every girl in our grade (in sixth grade).
- Bullied one girl until she ran out of class.
- Bullied one really short kid.
- One of their nerds bullied all the other nerds in the school because he was too weak to pick on anybody else.
Almost all of these things were pretty regular occurrences.
Oh, and they also have a tendency to gang up on each other (think I mentioned that already).
High school seems to be a little better, but there's still a lot of that stuff going on.
If people seriously thought I was gay I'd lose almost all of my friends (only two of them don't hate gays) and my social status would be ruined for the rest of high school. I've also never had a girlfriend, which would in their minds be evidence of that.
Maybe it's time to ask yourself if those are really friends? A true friend is someone who's going to stand by you whether you're straight or gay - or whether people think you are or aren't. What you have there are pack mates - they'll tolerate you as long as you don't step out of line; but as you said yourself, you're worried about their reactions if you did. That's not friendship at all. And frankly, as you grow older you'll hopefully learn to stop giving a **** what people like that think of you. I know it can seem intimidating, going against the flow, and not caring what others will think of you. But do it long enough and you might actually earn some respect from people who deserve it back. What you have now isn't friendship or respect - it's merely acceptance from members of the pack too chicken**** to stand for correct beliefs because they might lose social points. People who end up being worth the air the breathe tend to learn to look past that as they grow up.
Yes, I shouldn't care so much, and no, they're not real friends.
It depends really on what kind of friends you have. I personally feel that if you have a good set of friends, and it would turn out that you are actually really gay, some of them might actually change their opinion about gayness, since you are probably an alright kind of guy. Perhaps your current social status can act as a catalyst, if it would indeed turn out to be the case.
Off course, it is pretty obvious now that you are not gay - in which case, your interactions with potential gay people should not matter to anyone, as you are not hitting on them or anything.
Unfortunately, they would probably think I was gay just for not hating them.
I have anxiety issues, which means that the mere mention of homosexuality will make me uncomfortable because I'm concerned that people will think I'm gay for being uncomfortable about it.
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That's the difference between my schools and yours, mine, while a perfect environment for bullies to thrive in, only a portion of people were bullies, and I can't recall any of the proper hard people being bullies either. Also, there were some nasties, but none of the stone cold psychos you see in the news, or anyone going as far as some of what you describe. The point I'm trying to make is even though many of the teachers were weak and turned a blind eye, the opportunity was there but a lot of people didn't take it and even the bullies didn't go as far as they could have. Severe beatings, the kind which would put you off school didn't really happen, And there were no gangs/cliques. Some of the bullies were friends and would bully together, but the bullies were more opportunistic than putting any real thought or effort into it. They weren't planning schemes in advance or trying to take any kind of power in the school, and certainly didn't bully the teachers. They kind of did whatever they thought of at the time when a victim was there to bully.
I am thankful I have no experience of gangs/cliques. While I know it happens, I haven't come across any bullying really since I left school. Your school sounds particularly bad. Could you switch? Maybe it could be worth looking into. I don't know if you just live in a terrible area and it wouldn't make any difference or would even want to, but going by what others have said (and like with you this was a revelation to me too, since all my schools followed the same pattern) I would have thought the odds would be good a new school would be better. Do the teachers try to do anything? Are they just as useless as my teachers and let people be bullied and girls sexually harassed right there in the classroom?
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in highschool i was a nerd. but i didnt look like a nerd, i looked like a metalhead. my friends knew i was a nerd and didnt care. we all bought trench coats after columbine and used to break large chunks of ice with our heads. bullies were afraid of getting stabbed in the eye with a plastic spork.
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Life's a funny thing. Bullying is common in schools because historically adults have viewed it as normal. It isn't, and it shouldn't be considered that way.
That said, every kid in my class who was a tactless bully is now a low-life with a dead end job and minimal future prospects. Every one of the sly bullies may have become a little more successful, but they've pretty much carried on with their narcissistic/sociopathic behaviour in business.
I had a really strong group of friends - who I am still friends with today. While we were all the "nerds," the "smart kids," the "band geeks," etc, and were bullied mercilessly in some cases, we're all quite successful now and courtesy of those bonds we were able to largely ignore the bull****, an option many other kids didn't have.
It's amusing, though. The 'popular' kids, for the most part, lead dead-end existences. The few that are successful are still just as narcissistic/sociopathic as ever - and an awful lot of bullies have a serious disregard for rules. In high school those are school rules. In life, those are laws. As for me? I work in law enforcement...
Karma's a ***** =)
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Life's a funny thing. Bullying is common in schools because historically adults have viewed it as normal. It isn't, and it shouldn't be considered that way.
I am getting flashbacks to another thread about another form of mental abuse a few months earlier.
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Life's a funny thing. Bullying is common in schools because historically adults have viewed it as normal. It isn't, and it shouldn't be considered that way.
That said, every kid in my class who was a tactless bully is now a low-life with a dead end job and minimal future prospects. Every one of the sly bullies may have become a little more successful, but they've pretty much carried on with their narcissistic/sociopathic behaviour in business.
I had a really strong group of friends - who I am still friends with today. While we were all the "nerds," the "smart kids," the "band geeks," etc, and were bullied mercilessly in some cases, we're all quite successful now and courtesy of those bonds we were able to largely ignore the bull****, an option many other kids didn't have.
It's amusing, though. The 'popular' kids, for the most part, lead dead-end existences. The few that are successful are still just as narcissistic/sociopathic as ever. And now I work in a place where I spend the majority of my time investigating and criminally charging those same kinds of narcissistic/sociopathic clowns just when they think they're pretty much invulnerable.
Karma's a ***** =)
You're very lucky. Drifting away from my school friends is my greatest regret. It's complicated why it happened though, and not a story I want to tell, but a big part of why was beyond my control.
That was me in a lot of ways, I befriended the intelligent, including the most intelligent guy in the school, who was also the smallest guy. What a terrible combination! Attracted scum like moths to a flame. I was in the top class for everything, but my friends were even more intelligent and very helpful for me academically. And I got bullied all the way through school from start to finish almost every day except one year when I switched schools for the last year and it was actually a great school, and maybe my first year or so and after compulsory education ended and every single bully in the school left. I didn't want to mention the fact I got bullied, but when your story sounds so similar to mine I just had to.
Yes, of all the people who bullied me, most were absolutely braindead people. But not all.
You go get those people, I hate those people! :DLife's a funny thing. Bullying is common in schools because historically adults have viewed it as normal. It isn't, and it shouldn't be considered that way.
I am getting flashbacks to another thread about another form of mental abuse a few months earlier.
Is it the one about women, I'm not sure how to describe it, I think the word "gaslighting" got used.
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You're very lucky.
Totally just read that in the voice of the supply train driver in Starfox 64...
I can agree with braindead. Those that I knew of that weren't entirely braindead eventually realized how useless that behaviour was
in highschool i was a nerd. but i didnt look like a nerd, i looked like a metalhead. my friends knew i was a nerd and didnt care. we all bought trench coats after columbine and used to break large chunks of ice with our heads. bullies were afraid of getting stabbed in the eye with a plastic spork.
Classic Nuke
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You're very lucky.
Totally just read that in the voice of the supply train driver in Starfox 64...
And now transferred to my mind.
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What newman said. Everytime someone (not necesarily a "friend") shouts a funny calling me a gay, I'll always offer them a blowjob or smth, and the escalation between the attempt to "shame" and my gay act sometimes reach really hilarious levels. Eventually however, they'll leave me alone, defeated, confused as to why the "shaming" never clicked. The obvious rarely reaches their minds: there would be nothing to be ashamed of.
I can see how that would work. Homophobia is rooted in fear as well as bigotry, so that could make them very uncomfortable.
Come to think of it, one of the bullies I know is probably a closeted bisexual. I'd like to see someone use that strategy on him.
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What newman said. Everytime someone (not necesarily a "friend") shouts a funny calling me a gay, I'll always offer them a blowjob or smth, and the escalation between the attempt to "shame" and my gay act sometimes reach really hilarious levels. Eventually however, they'll leave me alone, defeated, confused as to why the "shaming" never clicked. The obvious rarely reaches their minds: there would be nothing to be ashamed of.
I can see how that would work. Homophobia is rooted in fear as well as bigotry, so that could make them very uncomfortable.
Come to think of it, one of the bullies I know is probably a closeted bisexual. I'd like to see someone use that strategy on him.
I wouldn't count on it. I don't think shaming people will make them come out of the closet. If anything, they'll become politicians with an anti-gay agenda, just to disguise their sexual orientation.
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That wouldn't be shaming him, just responding to his attacks.
He'd probably get very uncomfortable as soon as he saw his gay slurs weren't working. Of course, his large size would make him fairly dangerous if he wanted to be.
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Thought I might share something here
Somebody's parent telling them to punch the bullies in the belly has hidden wisdom in it - the bullying should not be tolerated at any circumstances, and it definitely is not normal. What should be taken care of though, is that the person whose parents' support this sort of stuff doesn't turn out to be a bully himself. Additionally, the current society somehow seems to support continuous bullying since the person being bullied cannot respond no matter how justified it were, and when something physical happens, teachers will think it's the victim's fault. Worse, some people can sort of snap, if they happen to have the built-in violence gene - this is not always visible, and the person perceived being nice and easy to bully might actually be the most dangerous person you know when out-of-control or having justified rage, and can really permanently disable or kill the bully at ease with no regrets afterwards.
To me it seems that most people start to really understand world around their 25s - some of the bullies will change to normal people, worst of the bullies tend to become rejects, and those who were bullied typically fare better, if they survive through their 18s. It is sad when they don't, and you get the sort of feeling that this shouldn't have happened. What doesn't change, is the damage what happens to the bullied person - he will not forget what the bullies were like when they were kids, and does not want to be reminded of that. Although, it is sort of weird to see what has happened to them, and how they have changed.
What it comes to Apollo being afraid to talk with a gay friend, I can sort of understand it for that age. But make sure though that you don't lose a good friend because of social stigma - you'll see things differently in years to come, and good friends are not easy to find. If you were wondering, yes, my life was hell between 5 and 15 years old - mental hell to be exact, not physical - everybody was scared to touch me mainly because of the my father's occupation. Things started to improve when I got to High School, in another village where I requested to be placed in the class which didn't have students from my home village. You could start normal social relations when they didn't have any sort of prejudices! When I got to the University, I could start completely from the scratch, and found a lot of nice people. Things have been steadily improving ever since, so there's hope for you all!
But I sort of miss the school system where it was OK to sit pupils in the stocks - talk about Medieval (this was in the 1980s)! Half an hour with wooden shacks around your ankles teaches some long term memory when you forgot to do your homework! :D (Seriously though, most of us thought of it being just fun) Or teachers lifting pupils to the coat rail when they pissed them off, or ordering us to RUN around the school RIGHT NOW (circumference about 300 metres) at -15 degrees (without shoes, remember it was RIGHT NOW) since you couldn't get the arithmetic tables right in your mind. Back then teachers did have authority at least, and bullying the teachers was the last sort of thing crossing in your mind :D My current teacher friends sort of comment that not all of that was without reason, actually, and they wish they could pull even half of it without getting an official warning.
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So uh... bit late here and only read bits of pieces, but...
In the OP, is Apollo using "bullying" in a general sense of "picking on"? Cuz I was almost never been "bullied" in school (i.e. by a single "bully"), but I've been on the receiving end of classlroom "culture" e.g. getting a nickname I absolutely despised, and having everyone (including the teacher) use it. And I've been on the giving end too :blah:
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in highschool i was a nerd. but i didnt look like a nerd, i looked like a metalhead. my friends knew i was a nerd and didnt care. we all bought trench coats after columbine and used to break large chunks of ice with our heads. bullies were afraid of getting stabbed in the eye with a plastic spork.
now that i think of it im the only one of my highschool friends that isnt dead or in jail.
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in highschool i was a nerd. but i didnt look like a nerd, i looked like a metalhead. my friends knew i was a nerd and didnt care. we all bought trench coats after columbine and used to break large chunks of ice with our heads. bullies were afraid of getting stabbed in the eye with a plastic spork.
now that i think of it im the only one of my highschool friends that isnt dead or in jail.
gee i wonder why
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in highschool i was a nerd. but i didnt look like a nerd, i looked like a metalhead. my friends knew i was a nerd and didnt care. we all bought trench coats after columbine and used to break large chunks of ice with our heads. bullies were afraid of getting stabbed in the eye with a plastic spork.
now that i think of it im the only one of my highschool friends that isnt dead or in jail.
gee i wonder why
I actually really wonder why Nuke is not in jail. You'd think someone would pick up on his notions of ANNIHILATING ALL HUMANS.
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in highschool i was a nerd. but i didnt look like a nerd, i looked like a metalhead. my friends knew i was a nerd and didnt care. we all bought trench coats after columbine and used to break large chunks of ice with our heads. bullies were afraid of getting stabbed in the eye with a plastic spork.
now that i think of it im the only one of my highschool friends that isnt dead or in jail.
gee i wonder why
I actually really wonder why Nuke is not in jail. You'd think someone would pick up on his notions of ANNIHILATING ALL HUMANS.
Maybe he's just the lucky one. They got all his buddies.
However, the annihilating all humans, I expect a lot of people just wouldn't take him seriously. And he might not say these things in real life anyway.
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im amazed by this myself. especially with the number of illegal things i do. if not jail at least a mental institution. i guess i have a knack for being invisible.
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im amazed by this myself. especially with the number of illegal things i do. if not jail at least a mental institution. i guess i have a knack for being invisible.
:nono:
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I actually really wonder why Nuke is not in jail. You'd think someone would pick up on his notions of ANNIHILATING ALL HUMANS.
Maybe if he rapped to the Fresh Prince (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83951.0) a bit more. :p
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I actually really wonder why Nuke is not in jail. You'd think someone would pick up on his notions of ANNIHILATING ALL HUMANS.
Maybe if he rapped to the Fresh Prince (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83951.0) a bit more. :p
no thank you. id rather listen to my grandma's records than anything to do with rap.