Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TheAlteran on March 25, 2013, 06:22:51 am
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Hey there,
I just wanted to quickly find out what Veteran Freespace players thought about a campaign that spreads over more than just one game. For example - Using a gaming engine such as Source to simulate interiors and combat not done within the confines of space.
Perhaps using a form of Password system to unlock additional weapons and craft at some points in the campaign.
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That would be interesting, one major problem being that your public may not have all the games required to play all the parts of your campaign.
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Source is now free and cross-platform if you're using the version of the engine TF2 does.
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Source was only a suggestion. For instance a game could be made using Unity3D and distributed alongside the mod. And to answer the obvious question as to why I am asking asking - I am the type of person that demands ALL THE THINGS and so interiors and groundside combat is something my brain demands.
I intend to develop this system regardless. However I was just wondering if people wished for the 'end result' to be uploaded, that and to get advice and input from others.
Additionally I have Dyslexia so please don't murder me for grammar... I really can't help it.
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Trying to do this strikes me as "Battlecruiser 3000AD syndrome"--you cram so many different mechanics and elements into a mod that the quality of the various elements suffers horribly and you end up with a borderline-unplayable final product consisting of multiple games mashed together.
Also fighter pilots don't participate in infantry combat. They just don't. Ever. That's not their job.
What you could do is have MMU pack (jetpacks in SPAAAAACE, and they're real!) combat, where you have a spacesuit with a jetpack and a bunch of guns on it, and fly around an interior space Descent style. Have extremely low turn times and damp values and allow the player to slide in any direction. This would require massive amounts of new assets (jetpack doodz, level geometry, etc.) and the AI would have...problems, but at least it's theoretically possible to accomplish in FSO.
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Why does it have to be the same character in the infantry as in the pilot seat? Expand your mind dude. Just think... A campaign that follows... DUN DUN DUN... Multiple characters!
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^ I was about to post a long winded speech... then I saw this comment
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What you could do is have MMU pack (jetpacks in SPAAAAACE, and they're real!) combat, where you have a spacesuit with a jetpack and a bunch of guns on it, and fly around an interior space Descent style. Have extremely low turn times and damp values and allow the player to slide in any direction. This would require massive amounts of new assets (jetpack doodz, level geometry, etc.) and the AI would have...problems, but at least it's theoretically possible to accomplish in FSO.
I imagine it would be quite difficult, but couldn't a coder modify the ai to handle levels like that?
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What you could do is have MMU pack (jetpacks in SPAAAAACE, and they're real!) combat, where you have a spacesuit with a jetpack and a bunch of guns on it, and fly around an interior space Descent style. Have extremely low turn times and damp values and allow the player to slide in any direction. This would require massive amounts of new assets (jetpack doodz, level geometry, etc.) and the AI would have...problems, but at least it's theoretically possible to accomplish in FSO.
I imagine it would be quite difficult, but couldn't a coder modify the ai to handle levels like that?
They could, in the broad sense that a coder can modify the engine to do practically anything. But it would be essentially a ground up rewrite of the AI code.
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Just think about how dedicated the current AI is to mashing itself against anything in the general region.
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I saw an AI wander into the not-so-enclosed space between the struts of a GTD Raynor. It never made it back out.
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So in otherwords modifying Freespace for interiors would be a very difficult task and something easier should be found?
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If you want something that supports both interior combat and space dogfights, you might as well wait for Star Citizen.
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So in otherwords modifying Freespace for interiors would be a very difficult task and something easier should be found?
Wasn't this attempted before? I forgot how long ago, but I seem to recall the results being hilarious
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Are you referring to the use of two separate gaming engines or the modification of freespace?
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So in otherwords modifying Freespace for interiors would be a very difficult task and something easier should be found?
Wasn't this attempted before? I forgot how long ago, but I seem to recall the results being hilarious
You mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MadtAYcyCIA
??
works fine, as long as the AI are only sentry guns. hehe
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That reminds me of Descent.
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I'd say, using two engines for one campaigns would be impractical. On the other hand, if you had two mods for two games, from the same universe, you could make two campaigns which would each tell the story of the same events from a different perspective. Kind of how it worked with Tom Clancy's GRAW and HAWX.
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Also fighter pilots don't participate in infantry combat. They just don't. Ever. That's not their job.
I'd think if the enemy is boarding your ship and gets to the pilots quarters/barracks/whatever, the pilots wouldn't just stand there and say "Well, I'm a pilot, so you can't shoot me." However, I see your point: you can't make a campaign out of that, at least with pilots.
But the whole "running around the ship" concept still could work with pilots. You just don't give them a gun. You can walk around the ship and talk to your squad mates who don't change every mission. Make it more important when Alpha 2 dies, because now there's a new guy sitting in the mess hall. Maybe if you talk to them enough, they get better stats because they trust you or something.
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Also fighter pilots don't participate in infantry combat. They just don't. Ever. That's not their job.
I'd think if the enemy is boarding your ship and gets to the pilots quarters/barracks/whatever, the pilots wouldn't just stand there and say "Well, I'm a pilot, so you can't shoot me." However, I see your point: you can't make a campaign out of that, at least with pilots.
How about the other way around though - an infantryman gets pushed into a pilot position?
Maybe stretches reality a bit.... but it was also my favorite part of the first Crysis game. :)
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However, I see your point: you can't make a campaign out of that, at least with pilots.
Pilots are still soldiers of another nature. Just take a look at BSG
Most of the pilots on that show have set foot on solid ground and shot toasters to hell.
Although you could. Imagine if the pilot was captured after having been shot down, or were to land in the hangar bay of the enemy (pilot of a troop transport or something)
Still, I'd love to see ground combat in FreeSpace lore. It existed, but only as that one cutscene
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Also fighter pilots don't participate in infantry combat. They just don't. Ever. That's not their job.
Ever? Nope. A pilot shot down over enemy territory, if not captured immediately, can and, in most cases, will fight to get rescued by his own side. A pilot on a ship being boarded would also have to grab a gun and be prepared to repel the boarders. It's not their job, sure. But they're trained for it and expected to do it if the need arises. Especially Marine pilots.
I don't think that'd be a good idea to include that in a campaign though. A gimmick mission, sure. Take on Helicopters had a sequence just like that, you crashed and had to fight your way to the rescue helo. This was fun, but short and entirely optional. Basing the campaign around this would require a lot of generally rare events (or an alternate approach, a pirate or a merc could conceivably do both flying and boarding/ground combat), not to mention would essentially combine two radically different genres into one, which might not sit well with some people. Also, FSO is ill suited for that sort of thing. If somebody made an FS mod for ArmA II (or even III), which has an engine designed for combined arms simulation, then it could potentially work.
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A pilot having to fight his way out of a crash is one thing.
Sending a group of pilots on a foot patrol is quite another.
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Why does it have to be the same character in the infantry as in the pilot seat? Expand your mind dude. Just think... A campaign that follows... DUN DUN DUN... Multiple characters!
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Yup. The only way to do this thing right would be to have multiple protagonists playing part in a greater narrative.
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A mission where a pilot must reach the hangar bay of a wrecked ship (challenges include, but are not limited to, dodging beams that happen to penetrate the outer walls, puzzles in navigating the ship, Black Mesa style) wouldn't really require anything but the space suit, corridors and events set to trigger when the pilot flies into certain areas.
All that and maybe a timer until the ship blows up so the player can't really take their time and try out each and every dead end looking for the proper path.
I also noticed some time ago that landing and taxiing is supported (while looking through info on one of the .tbl files- ships.tbl to be specific), so there probably is the ability to build some tanks and walking people to make a ground war.
Animating walking infantry would take some creativity though.
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Tanks would be easy--you'd just have to position them slightly above the ground and give them such slow banking as to make it effectively nonexistent. Climbing hills would be another matter.
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I'm not in favour of this kind of thing, sure it could have potential to be a great thing, but I think it would just be overly complex having to switch between programs, and would cut people out who didn't like other genre/s used. If someone wanted to do it though, good luck to them.
The other program would have to be free, or it would drastically slash the player base.
And finally, I think two or more protagonists would have to be used. I suppose you could set it up so that the player is the greatest man on the planet and can do anything, but ideally, you'd want more than one person. Ace lands his ship on the enemy ship, and then Sgt. Rock jumps out to kick some ass.
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I seem to remember something about an "FPS mode" being added to the codebase, but I have absolutely no idea what that was for or what it entailed.
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I think that if an "FPS mode" is ever added to FreeSpace, an MMU pack mode with 6DoF controls and zero gravity spacesuit combat would be much, much more interesting and keeping in the spirit of FreeSpace than a conventional FPS. The FPS market is completely saturated but AFAIK MMU pack spacesuit combat in zero-G is a pretty novel premise.
Not to mention you could reuse physics and other code from the main engine and make it interoperable with existing assets--like a segment where you could, say, take down a Shivan or NTF fighter using just your MMU pack, suit-mounted weapons, and your wits.
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I think that if an "FPS mode" is ever added to FreeSpace, an MMU pack mode with 6DoF controls and zero gravity spacesuit combat would be much, much more interesting and keeping in the spirit of FreeSpace than a conventional FPS. The FPS market is completely saturated but AFAIK MMU pack spacesuit combat in zero-G is a pretty novel premise.
Not to mention you could reuse physics and other code from the main engine and make it interoperable with existing assets--like a segment where you could, say, take down a Shivan or NTF fighter using just your MMU pack, suit-mounted weapons, and your wits.
Vassago's Dirge bro
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We need some HD space suits though, the current one is... bad. I don't know how else to say it. With the GIGANTIC missile launchers pasted to it, it looks pretty bad. The no MLauncher variant looks good though.
*Adds Space Suit to the list.*
Would it be wise to have a different models for suits? Say GTVA Standard, Military, Command, Technitian, etc?
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Proper AI behavior for negotiating interiors / interaction with large objects is by far my greatest desire for FSO. It's such a great engine, but watching fighters just crash into stuff over and over again is embarrassing and really breaks immersion. I know it's been brought up many times, but Descent mode (or something like that) would be such a huge step forward.
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Both myself and others have toyed with coming up with some type of Descent mod, but the AI would definitely destroy any chance at singleplayer. Which isn't necessarily bad, since the Descent modding community was generally more multiplayer-focused anyway.
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Yeah, I've been toying with the concept recently. Giving the AI 100% strafe attack value works OK until it bumps into a wall. :s
*Adds "toy with the AI code" to the gigantic TODO list of doom*
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Proper AI behavior for negotiating interiors / interaction with large objects is by far my greatest desire for FSO. It's such a great engine, but watching fighters just crash into stuff over and over again is embarrassing and really breaks immersion. I know it's been brought up many times, but Descent mode (or something like that) would be such a huge step forward.
Better collision avoidance and interior navigation would be a great addition to the engine. Right now, it can get stuck in things like Raynor's midsection and never make it out. It's not even that enclosed. I don't think it should be a separate mode, but rather an optional addition to AIProfiles.
A pilot having to fight his way out of a crash is one thing.
Sending a group of pilots on a foot patrol is quite another.
Was anybody suggesting that anywhere in the thread? Besides, I could think of a scenario where it would happen, though obviously not in a regular military. For instance, a guerilla-style force, similar to Rebel Alliance from SW (in fact, I can see it working well with FoTG, should something like this be implemented). Or a pirate or mercenary group that doesn't have enough men to have dedicated pilots. There are plenty of scenarios in which a character could double as both pilot and infantryman, you just have to get creative.
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Is there any way to change collision behavior so that instead of "crashing" into a large object, you just sort of "slide" along it like in Descent? Could this be added to the code, or scripted in somehow? That would be a big step toward Descent-stlye playing, with the other half being just the AI, which you could get around by using only stationary things or positioning ships so that they have space to move around in and stay in the space.
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All this talk about ships crashing into things makes me think of G-Police. That had you flying in a cityscape, and the AI flew smoothly between the skyscrapers. Though could still crash into them, but usually didn't. It was easier to fight a battle in an open space than weaving between the skyscrapers. I don't know if this will be of any value, but I'm just putting it out there, I was always impressed with it, because the ships clearly aren't flying on rails or anything like that when going through the skyscrapers. I was just wondering, whether anyone would benefit from looking at it, or for all I know breaking the game open and getting at it's AI. Just putting it out there.