Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Catecholamine on April 08, 2013, 06:01:53 pm
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They have a huge supply of every type of missile. They don't have to be manned. They're cheap to manufacture.
A kamikaze support ship would be the ultimate anti-capital ship weapon.
Why hasn't the GTVA figured this out?
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Same reason they haven't replaced all Terran Turrets with Morningstars.
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You can take out all parts of the missiles other than the warhead (don't need engines or guidance). You can take the cockpit and any rearming equipment out of the support ship, leaving propulsion and other very basic systems.
... at which point what you have is a very big torpedo - possibly with a subspace drive and possibly with shields. But it's still just a torpedo.
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You can take out all parts of the missiles other than the warhead (don't need engines or guidance). You can take the cockpit and any rearming equipment out of the support ship, leaving propulsion and other very basic systems.
... at which point what you have is a very big torpedo - possibly with a subspace drive and possibly with shields. But it's still just a torpedo.
These would have been a godsend against the Sathanas beam cannons.
With the right escort (although it would take massive brass balls to volunteer to escort it, unless there were a way to disarm the warheads until it actually reaches its destination), it could fly into a hostile capship's fighterbay and explode inside the ship, breaking it apart from the inside.
However, another idea is keeping the cockpit and full missiles, and replacing the rearming equipment with a missile launcher. What you have then is a bomber with a seemingly infinite amount of missiles that can jump in and out quickly as needed.
This could be a useful platform for strike bombing. They would be incredibly high-priority targets, but they wouldn't stay in the theater of combat very long.
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:nervous: Uhh crap.
This was something in a mission I was going to do in the eventual serious campaign, where some pirates have a few Hygeias that have been turned into gunships.
But seriously, why is it that no-one seems to have done this earlier?
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The Hygeia is smaller than some of the bombers it rearms, which themselves are physically smaller than the volume of missiles they can carry. Support ships can carry an infinite amount of ordinance because that balances the rearming mechanic of the game but if you have it launching more missiles than a larger bomber you may reach the limits of suspension of disbelief.
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Well, that's true. The Hygeias in question only fire off a lot of tempests and swarm missiles, though. I never liked the Hygeia being able to rearm Cyclops/Helios, the Hygeia doesn't have the space to carry them. Or at least a lot of them.
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The only way I can mentally reconcile the support ship's capacity with "reality" is to think that there's a subspace node inside the support ship where they warp in missiles as needed.
Of course, that wouldn't have been feasible in the FS1 era, and it would still be iffy in FS2.
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It doesn't make any sense in either era. You have to accept some amount of gameplay-story segregation.
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Support ships can carry an infinite amount of ordinance
I'm actually not convinced this is true - I remember there being an ordnance cap at some point that was good for several rearms. Either way, they do carry a huge amount of bombs.
One reason they probably haven't been used as kamikaze ships is they're a lot easier to shoot down compared to most warheads on their own. They're huge, and not much faster than most warheads, with a normal top speed of 70 m/s and an oclk speed of 100 m/s (Helios is 65 m/s, cyclops is 95 m/s).
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It doesn't make any sense in either era. You have to accept some amount of gameplay-story segregation.
I just assume that they have a Bag of Holding in there.
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All the official documentation for FreeSpace (both games) says that the player can't rearm indefinitely because support ships carry limited ordnance. Of course, we know that gameplay proves otherwise. My guess is that this is a feature that they intended to implement but never got around to.
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It doesn't make any sense in either era. You have to accept some amount of gameplay-story segregation.
Possibly, however, remember that there was a subspace missile strike weapon made for FS2, although it didn't make it into the canon campaign. Warping a supply of inactive missiles into a ship isn't too dissimilar, although keeping the subspace node contained inside a ship would be... problematic, to say the least.
By War in Heaven (yeah yeah I know it's not canon) the Tevs might have been able to do it, seeing as, by then, precision subspace jumps and SSM strikes were commonplace.
Regardless, it's highly probable that this is how the Ancients did it. Remember, in their prime, they were about the same level of FS1 GTA/PVN in terms of armor and weaponry, but far more advanced than post-Capella GTVA in terms of subspace.
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what
where the hell are you getting that from
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We know that their knowledge of subspace exceeded that of the GTVA, and allowed them to create both the subspace tracking technology and the Knossos portals. Beyond that, no official canon data is available, though comments by Volition developers state that the Ancients were no more than a few decades ahead of the GTA and PVN at the time of FreeSpace 1, except in the area of subspace.
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ancients
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Of course, we know that gameplay proves otherwise. My guess is that this is a feature that they intended to implement but never got around to.
Idea ... I've got to try something even if it has no noticable impact for player ...
(Good thing I can just mess with all missions to do that)
EDIT:
Maybe not the most elegant solution (and not yet bugfree):
(http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/0rph3u5/FS%20Open/th_supportshipstuffWIP_zps6a6d19cd.jpg) (http://s1020.photobucket.com/user/0rph3u5/media/FS%20Open/supportshipstuffWIP_zps6a6d19cd.jpg.html)
you can of course fancy it up by going all the way limit the support not by number of rearms but by the acutal time spend rearming but that requires exact knowledge of the tables (not to mention a corrective measure to account for system repairs etc)
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By War in Heaven (yeah yeah I know it's not canon) the Tevs might have been able to do it, seeing as, by then, precision subspace jumps and SSM strikes were commonplace.
We still do not know anything about whether or not subspace jumps into or out of enclosed spaces are possible at all, especially spaces as tight as the interior of a supply ship.
Also, you're trying very hard to justify a specific piece of gameplay in fluff terms, this is a path that leads to madness.
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IF THE GTVA TURNED ALL THE SUPPORT SHIPS INTO KAMIKAZE SUPER-BOMBS THAT MADE BATTLES EFFORTLESS THEN THE STORY WOULD LACK DRAMATIC TENSION ****
It's like I'm actually reading a BP thread! Contrivances are made for the sake of engaging gameplay and entertaining plot. These can often be supported by the fluff, but sometimes you just have to accept them. Creating internal consistency and verisimilitude is more important than strictly adhering to realism.
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But Redsniper, what about mah realisms?!
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Yooooouuuuuu guyyyyyysssss...
I know it's a gameplay mechanic. What's wrong with a little idle speculation?
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Nothing wrong with it, it's actually pretty cool and might go interesting places.
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Was the Alastor Bravo tech room entry meant to be a joke?
The Bravo variant uses twin missile lanchers drawing from an ammunition storage derived from the Hygeia support ship.
It made me laugh for the reasons in this thread.
Warping a supply of inactive missiles into a ship
I can picture the Ancients doing this perhaps, but I think WiH-era GTVA might be too far-fetched. Sort of related: I've often wondered if SSMs could be made more efficient by jumping them through a Knossos-like device from inside the firing ship for the first leg of their journey. That I could see the WiH GTVA trying.
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Snuffleupagus
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The Vishnan 'ultrabomb' kinda does that (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-science.gif)
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i really don't see where people are getting the idea that the ancients 'probably' used any technology, we have pretty much no canon information on anything about them
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Okay, I flipped out a bit. I actually think a Hygeia repurposed as a gunship or improvised bomb would be cool once in a while, but not as an official change to GTVA strategy or whatever. It's just that people so often try to come up with these perfect solutions to FS warfare, which is dumb and kind of missing the point of the setting, story, etc.
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To me support ships ain't dealing any damage, because it's quicker, cheaper and more efficient to send a bomb taxi into the battlefield than having strike craft jump back and forth into and out of action..
The "cheaper" being the most important part, as the GTS and GVS don't have gun mounts, don't have capacitors to power them, or a power supply to charge 'em up, they don't have afterburners, no shields, no missile tubes and as such probably no advanced sensors/guidance systems or electronics on board other than comm and nav.
What they do have is the ability of a single ship keeping several in combat for extended periods of time at the cost of a single jump drive being used from time to time when the supply ship goes to resupply itself.
A similar thing would be with modern flying tankers (a play on the original post: Why not give them bombs, missiles and CIWS turrets and get rid of all the fighters they support, they have the fuel to reach everywhere so what's the purpose of the dedicated ordnance delivery units?).
The thing that I wonder about is how many Ursas could that thing resupply? There is no limit in game, but physically there must be a maximum number of warheads that thing can carry.
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The thing that I wonder about is how many Ursas could that thing resupply? There is no limit in game, but physically there must be a maximum number of warheads that thing can carry.
A Hygeia is about the same size as two Helioses.
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I though it would be something really small, I didn't expect it to be that bad though.
Guess :v: dropped the ball here.
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I though it would be something really small, I didn't expect it to be that bad though.
Guess :v: dropped the ball here.
Au contraire, V did better than we would've!