Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Leeko on April 08, 2013, 10:38:25 pm
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Sooo here's some thoughts. I'm not on the up-and-up about all the 'open secrets' or whatever, so if I'm a year behind on this go easy on me. Having played Tenebra - and with the knowledge about Naragi I now have - I thought it might be worth revisiting Ken. And woah, this is some seriously interesting stuff. In UT2 we see a lot of the same characters we hear talk in Ken, but by that point Laporte knows quite a bit about all of the characters, and the presence of some names we don't see here (and, well, duh) leads me to believe that the pieces of dialogue at the end with the jump nodes was mere hallucination. So I'm just going to talk about Ken here.
Anyway, the point of this thread was to talk about a startling revelation I had. Again, if this is common knowledge, I apologize for this veritable essay, but it blew my freakin' mind. ;) I believe that the characters with lines in the latter half of Ken are all Nagari sensitives. It's worth noting that it's been alluded to numerous times (especially by Samuel Bei, and his DESTINY HE SAW IN A DREAMMMMMM - IMO it's telling when that phrase appears in UT2) that significant Nagari contact may happen in dreams, and my hypothesis here is that Laporte is literally hearing (albeit possibly not in real time) their dreams.
Steele: "Walk the perimeter. Check your six. They sneak in through dreams. Walk the perimeter. Check your six. They can't get in if you lock them out. Walk the perimeter. Check your six."
This is pretty alarming. Steele guarding his mind from intrusion? As if the GTVA knows more about Nagari than I previously thought, including how to train one's mind to resist it. The implications are staggering.
Simms: "I'm drowning in blood. Please wake me up. I'm drowning in blood and I don't know how to swim. Please let me wake up."
Pretty obviously some kind of nightmare, probably fueled by her unit's massive casualty rate. This supports the "Laporte is hearing other Nagari sensitives' dreams" hypothesis. On a more discussion-worthy note, recall from the end of UT2, when the Ken anima said something to the effect of "There were others, but you were the most promising." Simms is just as rough and violent as Laporte, but she broke under the weight of her comrades' blood. Falconer's theory is correct: what makes Laporte so amazing is that she doesn't allow the weight she carries to break her. Possibly not a connection there, but Simms sure does act like someone touched by a Shivan mind sometimes, no? :P
Toqueville: "Did we do the right thing? We couldn't let them go through with it, not once we knew. We will not be tools. But... was it right?"
Early foreshadowing of contingency MORPHEUS. There is no way Laporte could possibly know anything of the sort, certainly nothing that could lead to a hallucination of him saying something like that. Interesting implication that the civilian leader of the GTVA has had some kind of Nagari contact.
Byrne: "They think me a coward. But they don't understand. This war will never be won by force of arms. It may not be won at all. We need more time..."
Holy crap. Byrne too? A Federation admiral? This is astounding to me, not because of the obvious reference to Shambhala, but because of the implications of Byrne's name even being here given my hypothesis.
Martin Mandho: "Why are they silent? No one has heard a whisper in more than a year... what does it mean?"
It's possible that he could have offhandedly mentioned something to this effect in front of Laporte - they do know one another. But I highly doubt it. However, because there is room for doubt, I don't believe this is strong evidence. However, it is still noteworthy because being an Elder means he is highly likely to be a Nagari sensitive, making it interesting to see his name alongside some others here. That fact lends some credence IMHO.
Whew. Steele, Simms, Toqueville, and Byrne being Nagari sensitives? That was quite a surprising thought to have. What I cannot decide on is whether Ken reached out to these people to show these thoughts to Laporte - "I have given you everything I can" he says, just before their lines - or they are long-time Nagari sensitives, if not to the same degree as Laporte, Bei, or the Elders. We've had no other hints - so far as I can tell - about Simms, Toqueville, or Byrne. Steele's bit is incriminating, however. Walk the perimeter. Check your six. They sneak in through dreams... What else could that possibly be, other than a defense against Nagari intrusion? Maybe he's just a paranoid dreamer. :lol: But I'd like to think there is significance there.
Now, an interesting point to ponder... What's the difference between the pilot from the Aquitane's Kappa wing that got lost in the nebula, or the pilot from the FS1 intro, and someone like Bei or Laporte? One type of Nagari contact seems to simply be, as Ken said, opening a person's mind to see what's inside - seeing through his eyes, or visiting his dreams in this case. Another is some sort of limited communication, and perhaps something more sinister, along the lines of subliminal conditioning (at least, this has been hinted at several times). Which category do these characters fall under? Maybe there is no difference, maybe not. Can anyone be subject to Nagari contact? Is it that anyone can be "hunted" but only a few "sensitives" can be communicated with? If what we see in the mission Ken is the result of the Ken anima "opening the minds" of various characters and relaying this to Laporte - and we suppose that this can be done to anyone - there is perhaps less significance here than I thought. Except with Steele. No matter how I look at it, Steele must be afraid of Nagari intrusion into his mind.
There are still so many mysteries surrounding Nagari.
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Didn't battuta mention Nagari sensitivity merely required a transmitter/receiver pair?
From what I understood, Nagari is electronic pulses vested directly on neurons by quantum vibrations; everyone is "Nagari capable."
I don't think the thoughts were hallucinations. Remember how the Vishnans were deaf to the 15th BG before Samuel merged with them? I think it's more of a case of 'hearing' them through Sam as if he were a router, that's why we hear people 'we' never met before.
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Steele being a Nagari sensitive would explain a few things. I bet he also has his own CASSANDRA, too.
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None of the characters mentioned there are nagari sensitive in the same way that Sam and Noemi are.
Steele is aware of the Vishnan ability to "read minds", as it were, because of his involvement in MORPHEUS (Which, let us not forget, is a contingency plan to deal with entities that for all intents and purposes are superhuman). I suppose he has conditioned himself to go with this Mantra to attempt to subvert this influence.
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Man, I disagree with that. No available canonical information pins down exactly what a Nagari sensitive is. There might be a zillion different permutations, or the relevant differences might be (so to speak) server-side rather than client-side.
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Steele being a Nagari sensitive would explain a few things. I bet he also has his own CASSANDRA, too.
I doubt he has a CASSANDRA. Rather, I'd like to think that he's simply a brilliant human, the sort of once-in-a-century hero who is trying to pry humanity out of the cogs of the cosmic machine. I could entirely see him having Nagari contact with the Shivans during his time in the SOC--the 99th skulls don't get sent after Shivan freighters for nothing--but he probably hates it even more than Laporte.
This is pretty alarming. Steele guarding his mind from intrusion? As if the GTVA knows more about Nagari than I previously thought, including how to train one's mind to resist it. The implications are staggering.
The GTVA has ETAK, it has a wealth of SOC data on the Shivans dating back to before the Great War, and it's waging a civil war to root out Vishnan influence. Nagari is definitely a known thing and it's only natural that the supreme commander in the Sol theater would make an effort to protect himself.
Simms: "I'm drowning in blood. Please wake me up. I'm drowning in blood and I don't know how to swim. Please let me wake up."
Pretty obviously some kind of nightmare, probably fueled by her unit's massive casualty rate. This supports the "Laporte is hearing other Nagari sensitives' dreams" hypothesis. On a more discussion-worthy note, recall from the end of UT2, when the Ken anima said something to the effect of "There were others, but you were the most promising." Simms is just as rough and violent as Laporte, but she broke under the weight of her comrades' blood. Falconer's theory is correct: what makes Laporte so amazing is that she doesn't allow the weight she carries to break her. Possibly not a connection there, but Simms sure does act like someone touched by a Shivan mind sometimes, no? :P
Or, you know, her lungs are hemorrhaging from radiation. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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Didn't battuta mention Nagari sensitivity merely required a transmitter/receiver pair?
If he has, I've not seen it. See my opening caveat.
I don't think the thoughts were hallucinations. Remember how the Vishnans were deaf to the 15th BG before Samuel merged with them? I think it's more of a case of 'hearing' them through Sam as if he were a router, that's why we hear people 'we' never met before.
It's been a while, and I've not gone out of my way to note exactly what it is that the nodes at the end of UT2 say (I guess you could dig around in the VP to find them, meh) but given the nature of the mission I'm leery about taking anything non-critical that happens - ESPECIALLY at the end - at face-value.
I suppose he has conditioned himself to go with this Mantra to attempt to subvert this influence.
My thinking exactly. I am gonna go with what Batutta said about Nagari "sensitivity" though. There is room for doubt about the precise nature of Nagari contact, so I'm still floating around in suspense-of-judgment land.
I doubt he has a CASSANDRA.
I wouldn't be surprised if the GTVA had their own Shivan supercomputer, honestly. It would make a lot of sense. Especially given the way Steele makes his plans. IIRC Laporte even remarks in some way about the similarity to which Steele and the Fedayeen operate. However, I also wouldn't be surprised if this was not the case.
The GTVA has ETAK, it has a wealth of SOC data on the Shivans dating back to before the Great War, and it's waging a civil war to root out Vishnan influence. Nagari is definitely a known thing and it's only natural that the supreme commander in the Sol theater would make an effort to protect himself.
I never meant to imply that the GTVA didn't know about Nagari. Certainly, they do. ETAK, like you said. What I had no inkling about previously is just how much they know. It's also conceivable that a lot of Great War (and pre-Great War) information about the Shivans could have been lost with Earth. Especially if it's super top-secret stuff. I imagine GTI was headquartered somewhere in Sol. Hell, the Idun Dictionary was laying around for 50 years after GTI left it there.
[Simms snip]
Or, you know, her lungs are hemorrhaging from radiation. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Huh? That quote is from before Laporte even sets foot on the Indus, way before she and Simms almost die from solar radiation. Unless Simms' "drowning in blood" nightmare is actually from the future - which is not impossible given that the Vishnans (and by extension, possibly the Shivans) were said to exist "outside the space-time bulk" or something, no?
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What Battuta says about Nagari sensitivity is irrelevant. Canonical material is the only source.
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There is no cannnnon, it's all fanfic anyway. Or is it all canon? Damn.
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What Battuta says about Nagari sensitivity is irrelevant. Canonical material is the only source.
I'm not going with what you said because you said it. I'm going with it because you said what I was already kinda getting at.
However, as a writing lead, you (hopefully!) have complete knowledge of all the canonical information currently available, and can make definitive statements about what has and has not been defined. As a come-and-go lurker I cannot, which is why I didn't make any definitive statements along those lines.
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Or he may just be throwing random misinformation to confuse you up. I do that a lot too.
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Or he may just be throwing random misinformation to confuse you up. I do that a lot too.
Such cruel masters. :(
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They opened this pilot's mind and saw his last minutes through his own eyes. What we call Nagari is a Shivan hunting sense. It is not telepathy, not mystical communion: it is electronic warfare visited upon the neuron
"Walk the perimeter. Check your six. They sneak in through dreams. Walk the perimeter. Check your six. They can't get in if you lock them out. Walk the perimeter. Check your six."
What I would think is more likely is that the Shivans tried with Steele what they did with Lt Ash. They used the Nagri hunting sense to connect with his mind whilst he was fighting in Capella and by some stroke of luck he was rescued or managed to fight his way out of the trap they set for him. This to me would explain how he came back from Capella changed - he has shared his mind with the shivans and understands them and their tactics better than any other human should. (With the exception of Ken)
This process may also be two way, now that the shivans seen inside his mind they may have attempted to do so again. Hence his thoughts above may be a method he uses to keep them out.
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and understands them and their tactics better than any other human should.
GTVA tacticians disagree (see Shivan behaviour (Narayana textures) (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Blue_Planet_intelligence_data#Shivan_behaviour_.28Narayana_textures.29)).
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Steele is not fighting Shivans at the moment, he is fighting Humans. I would guess that he would adopt a specific strategy in order to combat Shivans as best he could and then adapt his plans to keep the Shivans guessing, although ultimately this would be defeated I'm sure he would probably last a bit longer than most.
Where I say his understanding of shivans and their tactics comes in is his ability to sacrifice (similarly to the Shivan tactics we have seen where they sacrifice to learn about opponents) his forces over the short term in order to gain a long term advantage. In battle with the UEF we have seen him make huge sacrifices - both warships ( the 2nd Battlegroup, the Valerie, the Meridian?, The Carthage's air wing, ect ) and the lives of non combatants (the civilian convoys, Elder Taudiganiin, Lunar domes, Earth orbit station personnel) order to gain an advantage over the enemy. He will have to do this whilst fighting the Shivans as well to have any chance of buying enough time to evacuate systems or seal off nodes.
Although both use radically different methods in how they obtain their victories, they both seem to go by that old Sci-fi cliche The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few
Edit - I am not saying that he understands the shivans entirely - just enough to know that what he does is for the best. He knows that humanity will be lost if they are not prepared for the next encounter and part of that preparation is the need to gain Earth's might to help strengthen the GTVA.
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Steele fights the Shivans in a hidden/removed cutscene in UT. It... is rather painful to watch.
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Steele fights the Shivans in a hidden/removed cutscene in UT. It... is rather painful to watch.
Damn you... I'm going to have to spend hours finding that...
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Was it included with the release?
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Given that qwadtep is not on the team and I am reasonably certain that no development videos of UT leaked, yes, it should still be in the mission file somewhere.
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It plays at high speed behind the six seconds or so of blackout at the beginning. Just add a fade-in and remove the time compression.
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And make a vid plz. Stupid first flash always makes me **** my pants, wtf did you use for that?
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It plays at high speed behind the six seconds or so of blackout at the beginning. Just add a fade-in and remove the time compression.
There already seems to be a fade-in SEXP. I'm not familiar with cutscene SEXPs, so what will happen if I just cut out the time compression?
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Wait, is the cutscene (;7) the ROFLstomp of the GTVA defending Earth before getting nuked to hell by double beam Jugg claws? Or is it something else?
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I think it's something else, something we don't see, still trying to figure out how to see it :banghead:
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Don't bash your brains out, it's the events at the very beginning of UT2 that are hidden behind a fadein and time compression.
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Thanks, figured it out ( I feel so smart )
general gist is:
<Huge GTVA fleet commanded by the amazing Admiral Steele moves to defend earth>
Shivans think: "That's cute! Eat Liquorice colored beam cannons B****!"
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Well that was interesting.
Not quite as cool as I had hoped but it looked neat.
That data may warrant its own thread.
Mission File (http://www.mediafire.com/?62fms26aa4942d6)
Plop it into
[your filepath]/Freespace 2/blueplanet2/data/missions
then look at it from the tech room mission simulator under 'single missions'. It should be called 'UT edit'.
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Just watched it, cool. I can see why it was cut however. I guess Chi wasn't quite so Steele that day.
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steele was really dumb in that cutscene
seriously
he charged a ****ing sathanas
what a moron
it's not a wonder they cut this cutscene out
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If that cutscene had been important, it would have been rehashed like Icarus was. At the end of the day, there was no point in it. Just having the GTVA get ROFLstomped during the playable sequence did the same job in less time.
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It wasn't meant to be watched I think, it was just to provide a "realistic" amount of terran debris and damage to the shivan ships.
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Steele is not fighting Shivans at the moment, he is fighting Humans. I would guess that he would adopt a specific strategy in order to combat Shivans as best he could and then adapt his plans to keep the Shivans guessing, although ultimately this would be defeated I'm sure he would probably last a bit longer than most.
Where I say his understanding of shivans and their tactics comes in is his ability to sacrifice (similarly to the Shivan tactics we have seen where they sacrifice to learn about opponents) his forces over the short term in order to gain a long term advantage. In battle with the UEF we have seen him make huge sacrifices - both warships ( the 2nd Battlegroup, the Valerie, the Meridian?, The Carthage's air wing, ect ) and the lives of non combatants (the civilian convoys, Elder Taudiganiin, Lunar domes, Earth orbit station personnel) order to gain an advantage over the enemy. He will have to do this whilst fighting the Shivans as well to have any chance of buying enough time to evacuate systems or seal off nodes.
Although both use radically different methods in how they obtain their victories, they both seem to go by that old Sci-fi cliche The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few
Edit - I am not saying that he understands the shivans entirely - just enough to know that what he does is for the best. He knows that humanity will be lost if they are not prepared for the next encounter and part of that preparation is the need to gain Earth's might to help strengthen the GTVA.
I would argue it seems more likely Steele touched the Shivans minds, and got a glimpse of the magnitude of the threat mankind faces in a way which non-Nagari sensitives don't have. But, I think the problem noted about him is probably still valid: it probably hardened his resolve and gives him an ongoing "victory is justified at almost any conceivable cost".
The real question is whether he "understood" that you can't understand the Shivans tactics or strategies since they're just a mirror. It's be pretty neat to see Steele fighting Shivans, and actually using their adaptability against them: imposing tactical restraints on his forces, to guide the Shivans into one tactical pathway and then attacking them with another.
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Just watched it, cool. I can see why it was cut however. I guess Chi wasn't quite so Steele that day.
If I recall correctly, Laporte mentions something at the beginning of UT to the effect of this vision being a simulation of the future. If this is the case, could it be that the Shivans were just running Steele at a non BALLS OF STEELE AI? Maybe they simulate all possible iterations of battle like this. Or maybe they don't have enough data on Steele to accurately simulate his tactics. It's fascinating at any rate.
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I'd say charging a Super-juggernaut is signs of Balls of Carlosch AI...
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Seen at that was cut then I'm guessing it's no longer part of the plot - just like the Death of Ubuntu fiction entry that was left in the vp files.
I don't think that they would create such a great antagonist only to kill him off in a uncharacteristic manner.
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Why would Laporte's hallucinatory experience of Steele's destruction in an imperceptible flash of an instant during a drugged-up connection to an alien subspace network somehow represent the certainty of Steele's actual death?
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uncertainty nears... :nervous:
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Our theory of Steele unfolds. :warp:
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Well that was interesting.
Not quite as cool as I had hoped but it looked neat.
That data may warrant its own thread.
Mission File (http://www.mediafire.com/?62fms26aa4942d6)
Plop it into
[your filepath]/Freespace 2/blueplanet2/data/missions
then look at it from the tech room mission simulator under 'single missions'. It should be called 'UT edit'.
Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the various assets the community draws on to make campaigns, but...
Were those Meson Bomb ships? That jumped in and were blown up right before we swap to Laporte's point of view?
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The GTVA does indeed have and use tactical meson bombs. See TBI.
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It's be pretty neat to see Steele fighting Shivans, and actually using their adaptability against them: imposing tactical restraints on his forces, to guide the Shivans into one tactical pathway and then attacking them with another.
Would have to be the final blow he would ever give, since by their very nature, the Shivans would adapt to his "cunning" as well.
Remember, Shivans have time on their side.
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Would have to be the final blow he would ever give, since by their very nature, the Shivans would adapt to his "cunning" as well.
Remember, Shivans have time on their side.
Unless Steele is a tactical singularity and each subsequent tactical pathway he attacks them with, just places Shivans to be attacked from next tactical pathway that just places Shivans to be attacked from next tactical pathway that just places Shivans to be attacked from next tactical pathway that just places Shivans to be attacked from next tactical pathway that just places Shivans to be attacked from next tactical pathway that just places Shivans to be attacked from next tactical pathway that error: division by zero. :P :P :P
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So it would keep going forever in favor of the Shivans and Steele depending on how you approach it?
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Steele is no Quizatz Haderach. If there is a solution, it won't be a solution against Shivan and Vishnan interests. It will be a solution that will relatively appease everyone involved.
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On the topic of miscellaneous thoughts, today I noticed something interesting:
Both Age of Aquarius and War in Heaven both begin with preparations for a huge event involving dozens of large ships, and feature dialogues in which one party wishes the other "godspeed" - for vastly different reasons.
Exploration versus Extermination.
Interesting thematic parallel there.
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Steele will defeat the Shivans by using his mind control eye on them and making them fire all their beams at once, causing their quantum computer bodies to CTD, and then retire to the countryside with Laporte where he works as a cart driver
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...retire to the countryside with Laporte where he works as a cart driver
Damn, someone discovered the Admiral's fan fic.