Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: FIZ on April 12, 2013, 07:42:51 pm
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I hate starting a thread with an apology but a rekindled interest in the back story and an unhealthy dosage of SimCity 5 has me wondering...
What (in the BP verse) is the infrastructure like on the other side of Delta Serpentis? I imagine the 'capitol' of the GTVA (or at least the Security Council) being in Beta Aquilae with Vasudan and Terran infrastructure being much more 'high-density' around their respective home systems. Interesting that the NTF rebellion happens almost at an 'equidistance' from Sol and Vasuda.
Link to I believe FS canon map: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Fsnodemap.jpg
The level of detail on the layout of Mars drives a suspicion there must be some 'BP canon' about the infrastructure of the GTVA and I would like to hear some more about it if the devs are interested in sharing. For example, in a role reversal, how Calder Servanti and Steele's tactics would be implemented if they were based out of Sol attacking the GTVA.
I wasn't around for Inferno and I think that was the scenario there so I am very excited :yes: about that update since last I heard what has been released is... rather out of date.
If this has been discussed on another thread I honestly have no idea what to search for, so again I apologize. Keywording GTVA and infrastructure seems like it will point back to Sol.
If it hasn't really been discussed, where do they brew the Bosch beer? Where is the aluminum for the cans smelted? Where do the workers go for a vacation? :P
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That is a super interesting question, and the answer is that we do not have anything collected and ready to present right now! But I bet a thread about it would be awesome.
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Well, one thing we know for sure is that the terran half of the GTVA has less population than Sol, but is spread out on multiple planets and systems.
This implies a lot of stuff about the infrastructure, mostly much less concentrated cities and much more long-distance travel.
<speculation>
You would either have a couple, very large cities per planet, with the rest of the planet devoid of all infrastructure, or many smaller cities linked by efficient public transportation.
Space-wise, you would certainly have more small support and refueling stations than you could see in Sol, given the distances involved to go from one end of the GTVA to another, and the lack of subspace gates.
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I've tossed this idea around on other threads, but I imagine they probably have quick response stations at each node, or at least a standby ship loaded with meson warheads. That way if the Shivans are detected they can seal off the node immediately. I'd count that as infrastructure the same way I would count a customs office or some other equivalent at node termini.
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I wouldn't be so sure that the GTVA has more ship traffic.
In Sol there are only few habitable planets, but there are inhabited moons, asteriods and space stations. There is even a whole "country" that dosen't have a single habitable planet in it's terretory (the Jovians).
The GTVA on the other hand has the luxury of there being enough planets that they can concentrate on just those and don't need to bother with moons, asteriods and populated space stations.
Though with them being spread out over multiple systems, I'd imagine that in the GTVA the civilian space traffic is likely handled by bigger ships to make those costly (and necessary) jumpdrives cost-efficient.
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i always imagined the GTVA to have a high level of "spacer" population, and most of the on-world colonies to be one or two large cities with the rest of the planet virtually empty.
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i always imagined the GTVA to have a high level of "spacer" population, and most of the on-world colonies to be one or two large cities with the rest of the planet virtually empty.
My gut feeling has always given me the impression that this was the case. Though we're obviously lacking in canonical information, I can't see life thriving very well (if at all) on some of the background planet bitmaps provided in FRED.
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It seems implied that the infrastructures of the three players (UEF, GTVA Terrans, GTVA Vasudans) are all fairly similar. The UEF is able to hold the line (mostly...) against Steele's force. Most of the reason I assume the war goes badly for the UEF is because 1) the GTVA was preparing for the attack and the UEF wasn't, 2) Steele is crazy smart, and 3) the Elders and Byrne want defensive action.
The type of structure would depend on the habitability of the planets. If you have "shirtsleeve" environments, then you don't need stations/habitats/random rocks on which to live. In that case, most traffic would be on-planet, and the planets would be more densely populated. If you have Mars- or Venus-type planets that require domes and/or terraforming, you're essentially living in a station already. So, I'd imagine there would be more stations floating about and therefore more space shipping. I would agree that it would be denser near the homeworlds, as those were probably developed first.
If Sol housed half of the human population, then the colonies are fairly sparsely built up. I'm thinking less than 2-3 billion people on-planet per system. I don't recall any population numbers from FS2 or BP, so I could be way off. There would be plenty of open space and raw resources on-planet given this, assuming the average size of each planet resembles Earth. You would assume that each system wouldn't have a huge manufacturing base compared to Sol; it'd be spread among the systems. Sol had I think at least 3 shipyards in-system, so you'd figure maybe 3-4 main shipyards outside of Sol.
Since the end of the Second Incursion, the Terran half of the GTVA has been solely focused on getting back to Sol. It's mentioned that they've neglected other areas to achieve this, so there may be decaying infrastructure around the far colonies. 50 years is a long time to be without the umbilical to home, and 18 of those focused on one project.
Tactically, I don't think there would be much difference if the roles were reversed. If the UEF committed to offensive action, they'd still be using hit-and-runs and stand-off weapons. They can't match the Tevs in a knife fight, so they'd try to snipe from distance. Calder's strategy would probably to hit them hard in weak positions, with locally overwhelming force. If the UEF could bring the war outside of Sol, they might be able to achieve parity in tech as the pressure on their own infrastructure would ease. In that case, you might see more "conventional" FS warfare.
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Damn, I did say Calder. I meant Servanti I believe, who wanted a war of attrition and keep the Sol infrastructure as functioning as possible.
I kinda want to avoid the UEF breakout scenario, as UEF needs a lot more munitions which would rely on a strong logistical chain yadda yadda yadda
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The Capella system was densely populated by GTVA standards, with 250 million people.
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Damn, I did say Calder. I meant Servanti I believe, who wanted a war of attrition and keep the Sol infrastructure as functioning as possible.
Ah, well! That changes things! I think Servanti would probably still try to wear the UEF down. Steele would probably try to make an incursion into Sol. Practically, Steele would end up being at the tip of the spear, leading the offensive actions against UEF-held systems, more than likely with small, well-trained, well-equipped strike teams. Think Rommel in WW2. Servanti would probably be concerned with the defence of his assets, and he would take large actions to move the entire line. Servanti is the counter-weight to Steele. As we've seen, Steele unleashed is madness/genius.
I kinda want to avoid the UEF breakout scenario, as UEF needs a lot more munitions which would rely on a strong logistical chain yadda yadda yadda
Given the current situation, the best the UEF can hope for is to kick the GTVA out of Sol. For now, anyway. Their infrastructure is trashed, so they couldn't do much more than that.
The Capella system was densely populated by GTVA standards, with 250 million people.
Ah, I knew there were numbers somewhere.
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This point always itched me.
Given Delta Serpentis is the first System the terrans arrived, shouldn't it be almost as densely populated as Sol?
Surely they wouldn't have jumped into their colonization ships, all excited about waging war against the zods and not creating a proper infrastructure on the new colonies?
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The Terrans have had interstellar spaceflight for less than a century, IIRC. I'm surprised populations are as large as they are.
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shouldn't it be almost as densely populated as Sol?
Wouldn't it depend on how habitable the planets are in the system? Even if they could support life there would be a multitude of reason that prevent large scale colonisation in any system. Solar activity, radiation, native flora/fauna, tectonic activity, available resources (food, water) ect
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shouldn't it be almost as densely populated as Sol?
In short, no. Humans do not procreate that fast, and there's a rather big bottleneck in place (known as interstellar lift capacity) that limits the number of colonists that can be shipped out.
Add to that the hardships of having to terraform a planet (Even if it comes with a Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere at the right ambient pressure and temperature, you'll still have to import a whole human-compatible ecosystem), and population numbers won't be that high as a result.
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And in the context of a planned colonization of another world, sheer numbers aren't going to be nearly as important as skilled labor and infrastructure.
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If 250 million people are in a system (max), and there are approximately 15 systems to the Terran half of the GTVA (on the wiki there are 29 systems, so I rounded to 30), subtract Sol out, and you get about 3.5 billion people (max) living outside of Sol. Think China and India combined plus some extras. The Vasudans probably have a ton more in sheer numbers, simply because they were able to save some of their homeworld's population after the Great War. You've also gotta think that inside Sol there are 10-15 billion people. We've already got 7 billion now, wait 300 years plus Mars and the outer system. Unless there's some "plague" that :v-old: decided to write in their future histories...
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IIRC the Tevs are supposed to have at least comparable numbers to Sol - I'm guessing Delta Serpentis would be pretty heavily populated for instance.
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Raptor831: Capella was a densely populated system, that doesn't mean it was the most populated system. Chicago's a heavily populated city by North American standards, but it still just has a quarter the population New York City does (a bit less than half if one's going by metropolitan area, but you get my point).
Beta Aquilae and Delta Serpentis might well have a billion people each. Sol and the Terran half of the GTVA have comparable populations, the GTVA is just much more spread out.
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If 250 million people are in a system (max), and there are approximately 15 systems to the Terran half of the GTVA (on the wiki there are 29 systems, so I rounded to 30), subtract Sol out, and you get about 3.5 billion people (max) living outside of Sol. Think China and India combined plus some extras. The Vasudans probably have a ton more in sheer numbers, simply because they were able to save some of their homeworld's population after the Great War. You've also gotta think that inside Sol there are 10-15 billion people. We've already got 7 billion now, wait 300 years plus Mars and the outer system. Unless there's some "plague" that :v-old: decided to write in their future histories...
You forget something. The people in the GTVA terretory didn't just pop into existance out of nowhere - they moved from Sol to the new colonies.
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In BP lore, one of the reasons the terraforming of Mars slowed was due to habitable planets being found through the jump nodes IIRC. This was pre-Great War granted, but it does sound like their is at least one greener pasture in the GTVA 30 systems. I gotta imagine a bit of a baby boom after near extinction.
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If 250 million people are in a system (max), and there are approximately 15 systems to the Terran half of the GTVA (on the wiki there are 29 systems, so I rounded to 30), subtract Sol out, and you get about 3.5 billion people (max) living outside of Sol. Think China and India combined plus some extras. The Vasudans probably have a ton more in sheer numbers, simply because they were able to save some of their homeworld's population after the Great War. You've also gotta think that inside Sol there are 10-15 billion people. We've already got 7 billion now, wait 300 years plus Mars and the outer system. Unless there's some "plague" that :v-old: decided to write in their future histories...
You forget something. The people in the GTVA terretory didn't just pop into existance out of nowhere - they moved from Sol to the new colonies.
Yes, true. So, knock my estimates down to around 7-12 billion inside Sol. If there's only 3.5 billion outside of Sol that's the most that could have been removed from Sol.
I'm just spitballin' with these numbers too, so I may be off! :nervous:
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Again, Terran GTVA and UEF populations are roughly equivalent.
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Do we have a canon proof of that ? I don't remember.
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I don't think canon ever said anything about population and industry ratios, leaving it completely up to the BP team to decide what the ratios are for their mod.
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Well, here's from the FS1 Intel entries (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_1_intelligence_entries): 12 worlds "successfully" colonized outside Sol, and 15 outposts on planets and moons. I can't imagine that changed too much between the Great War and BP, with those Shivan Incursions and all.
I read through the mission briefings and did find the 250 million in Capella reference, but no reference to how large that was in comparison. If Capella was an "outpost" (a possibility considering its distance), then we're looking at something closer to parity between the UEF and the Terran GTVA.
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Capella was a densely populated system, not an outpost.
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But as stated, densely populated is relative. Chicago is dense compared to other cities, but tiny compared to New York City. I'm going to have to side with Aesaar and say that most of the population of the GTVA probably lives in a small number of systems, and probably most of those people in Beta Aquilae and Delta Serpentis simply due to proximity to Sol.
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It feels like post-Capella the GTVA would've had a schism in settling patterns - on the one hand you've got the people who wind up planetside and inadvertently put down roots there, but probably scattered away from cities in the hope of looking less like targets to a future Shivan attack, and on the other I imagine there was an uptick in people wanting to live in space, in the hopes of being mobile enough to run if/when the Shivans return.
I mean, the GTVA exists in a world where the apocalypse really might be just around the corner, so bunkering down and or getting out are your only two decent options. Or being prepared enough to make a run for Sol when the new portal opened.
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Capella was a densely populated system, not an outpost.
Yeah, you said that before, I'm just playing "devil's advocate." My wife says I do that too often... <shrugs>
But it does seem that (given the numbers) the post-Great War Terrans would be bound for economic issues after loosing so much.
Edit: Just read that Capella was the home of GTVA 3rd Fleet. Definitely not an outpost. <facepalm>
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If 250 million people are in a system (max), and there are approximately 15 systems to the Terran half of the GTVA (on the wiki there are 29 systems, so I rounded to 30), subtract Sol out, and you get about 3.5 billion people (max) living outside of Sol. Think China and India combined plus some extras. The Vasudans probably have a ton more in sheer numbers, simply because they were able to save some of their homeworld's population after the Great War. You've also gotta think that inside Sol there are 10-15 billion people. We've already got 7 billion now, wait 300 years plus Mars and the outer system. Unless there's some "plague" that :v-old: decided to write in their future histories...
Well apparently 4 billion Zods died in the Vasuda Prime bombardment. Do we have any reliable numbers on what percentage of the population that was?
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What about considering ship population? A single Deimos needs a couple thousand crewmembers. Considering this, Capella would have to be quite populous to support the number of ships seen and implied in FS2.
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the ship crews would live at its home port, which is not necessarily capella.
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If 250 million people are in a system (max), and there are approximately 15 systems to the Terran half of the GTVA (on the wiki there are 29 systems, so I rounded to 30), subtract Sol out, and you get about 3.5 billion people (max) living outside of Sol. Think China and India combined plus some extras. The Vasudans probably have a ton more in sheer numbers, simply because they were able to save some of their homeworld's population after the Great War. You've also gotta think that inside Sol there are 10-15 billion people. We've already got 7 billion now, wait 300 years plus Mars and the outer system. Unless there's some "plague" that :v-old: decided to write in their future histories...
Well apparently 4 billion Zods died in the Vasuda Prime bombardment. Do we have any reliable numbers on what percentage of the population that was?
I don't recall and can't find any references to the percentage. My initial reaction would be somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 of the population. Since it was a harsh environment, I can't imagine it was packed to capacity. Seems like a good guess.
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I got a similar impression, couldn't explain where though. 'had to be at least a third of them' somehow.
There may have been a percent evacuated figure somewhere.
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I'm curious, at this point, about a few things.
1. How much were the Terran and Vasudan economies connected after the node collapsed, and after the Second Incursion? Obviously, they build the Colossus, so they had time/money/resources to use, but then after? Judging from the fleet that GTVA has, you'd think that the Vasudans helped alot. I get the impression in BP that the Vasudans and the Terrans are pretty segregated, at least to the point that the Vasudans are almost considered a third combatant. So, I don't imagine the economies are relying on each other a whole lot.
2. How much of an industrial base to the Terran planets have? Kind of a spin-off from above, but it would help to know how many widgets, say, Capella was spitting out before the star went nova. Another way of putting it, how much of a population base is needed to produce a Raynor, or a Bellerophon? As General Batutta said, if you were colonizing new planets you'd want to take the best and brightest to start with. (Unless you're populating a prison colony...) You'd also want to be able to produce what you couldn't get shipped, so you'd want advanced manufacturing tech to cope. Given that, you probably have higher quality colonies than the homeworld just to survive. Once you get beyond a certain point, you'd begin to attract "regular" people because at that point you've become mostly self-sufficient. You would also need to ask how easy it is to fly from Delta Serpentis to Vega, as lower travel costs allow you to be less picky on who you send.
3. How advanced is the tech, with respect to manufacturing, materials, food production, etc. We see all the fancy ways to blow crap up, but we don't see farms or factories. These fighters we fly have to be similar in relative cost to a modern fighter jet, or we wouldn't see them in those numbers.
Poke holes in any of this if you like!
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I kinda get the impression at this point that Galactic Terran and Galactic Vasudan relations could be roughly mirrored by current US and China diplomacy. One is in debt because so and so, relationship is kinda frosty, different political ideals, but terms are allowed and there would be harsh consequences for all parties should said relationship sour.
Dunno if I'm making a lot of sense here, 2 beers in after one helluva week.
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I kinda get the impression at this point that Galactic Terran and Galactic Vasudan relations could be roughly mirrored by current US and China diplomacy. One is in debt because so and so, relationship is kinda frosty, different political ideals, but terms are allowed and there would be harsh consequences for all parties should said relationship sour.
Dunno if I'm making a lot of sense here, 2 beers in after one helluva week.
Makes sense to me.
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Since we've been talking about the population of Sol, how many people do you all think live on Mars?
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The GTVA being like the US and China is a poor analogy given the much closer links between the two constituents of the GTVA, at least until they were driven apart by authorial fiat.
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The GTVA being like the US and China is a poor analogy given the much closer links between the two constituents of the GTVA, at least until they were driven apart by authorial fiat.
Years of experience in Battletech forums have given me the authority necessary to declare that the word 'fiat' is 100% bull**** and should never be applied to fictional settings.
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in my defense i don't even know what battletech is
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in my defense i don't even know what battletech is
(http://danisdailydose.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/dramatic-chipmunk1.gif?w=500)
It's MechWarrior's universe (MechWarrior being the "VG name")
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The GTVA being like the US and China is a poor analogy given the much closer links between the two constituents of the GTVA, at least until they were driven apart by authorial fiat.
Years of experience in Battletech forums have given me the authority necessary to declare that the word 'fiat' is 100% bull**** and should never be applied to fictional settings.
Years of experience in Battletech forums have given me the authority to provide testimony that this man speaks the truth.
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What is that word supposed to mean anyway. It's not in my dictionary.
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You gotta think that after the second war, Neo-Terra and all the crud they did, and the fact that the Terrans were probably leaning hard on the Vasudan economy, there would have to be some relational strain. I mean, these people were at war before the Shivans showed up. They were an alliance of convenience, not brotherhood. After the war, it was obvious that if they continued to quarrel among themselves, the Shivans would kill them both. So, they pooled the resources. It still sounds like, from the FS2 campaign, that they are essentially segregated. There are Vasudan planets/colonies, and Terran planets/colonies. I haven't seen fully integrated ones. They might have become like brother nations, but the second war and the Terran's insistence of getting back to Earth probably stopped that before it began.
Since we've been talking about the population of Sol, how many people do you all think live on Mars?
My guess would be no more than 100 million. It's only partially terraformed, so it can't be too much. It's enough to be a separate "nation" from Earth and the Jovians.
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They aren't 100% segregated though, there was the officer exchange program in FS2.
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I kinda get the impression at this point that Galactic Terran and Galactic Vasudan relations could be roughly mirrored by current US and China diplomacy. One is in debt because so and so, relationship is kinda frosty, different political ideals, but terms are allowed and there would be harsh consequences for all parties should said relationship sour.
Dunno if I'm making a lot of sense here, 2 beers in after one helluva week.
I'd actually characterize their relationship much more like units of a federation that don't like eachother all that much. Being a Canadian the example that comes to mind for me is the East-West political divide/rivalry.
Not familiar enough with federal dynamics in the states to grab an example from there.
The crux of it is they belong to one state, but for large portions of the population in both areas many of the country's ills are blamed on the other half. No one wants to country to break, they just aren't willing to give ground to the other faction.
I don't know if cases like Quebec/Flanders/Scotland apply as well since it's a similar dynamic but there are infusions of nationalism and cries for independence that I don't think apply in the GTVA's case.
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They aren't 100% segregated though, there was the officer exchange program in FS2.
Somewhere in the BP fiction it said that the exchange program all but stopped. Found it, it's in "The Rift". They obviously aren't excluding one another (ex: Vasudans in Sol, and I'm sure Vasudans travelling through Terran worlds), but when you evacuate Capella, there's a line about getting "every last Terran" out. So they either didn't care about Vasudans (not too probable at that point) or the system did not have a large enough quantity of Vasudans to mention.
I'd actually characterize their relationship much more like units of a federation that don't like eachother all that much. Being a Canadian the example that comes to mind for me is the East-West political divide/rivalry.
<snip>
That might be a more refined example, but I couldn't say about Canadian politics. We have enough fun here in the States. :rolleyes:
So, what kind of system is the GTVA? Is it like the EU, where it's a mostly economic union (correct me if I'm wrong), or is it more like the two sides are states/provinces united under a certain code and follow the GTVA leadership? The FS2 mission 1 brief makes it sound more like the latter, but by the time the GTVA enters Sol in BP, it looks less so.
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What is that word supposed to mean anyway. It's not in my dictionary.
In the context of this discussion (and when applied to fictional works in general), fiat is the concept that something in the story happened the way it happened simply because that's what the author wanted to happen, rather than by any legitimate or reasonable occurance as a logical progression of the story.
Fi-at n.
/ˈfēät/
1. A formal authorization or proposal; a decree.
2. An arbitrary order.
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i will never be able to hear/see "fiat" without an image of the **** ugly car popping in my head