Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: MatthTheGeek on April 14, 2013, 12:37:30 pm
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Hoarding assets = evil.
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While I don't feel as strongly about it as Matth, you probably should release your assets publicly ASAP. If you feel the appeal of your campaign is really hinging on having never-before-seen assets, you should probably try and work on your gameplay and story in lieu of asset creation. Age of Aquarius didn't need a brand new fleet to rock HLP's socks off, you know. :P
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While I don't feel as strongly about it as Matth, you probably should release your assets publicly ASAP. If you feel the appeal of your campaign is really hinging on having never-before-seen assets, you should probably try and work on your gameplay and story in lieu of asset creation. Age of Aquarius didn't need a brand new fleet to rock HLP's socks off, you know. :P
That's why I'm including only a few unique ships in mods I'm releasing and they are mostly the most important ships in the storyline. 95% of models I'm using are released ones altered, bugfixed etc and they are known, but I'm leaving a few exclusive to be associated with the mod after release, like Solaris from War in Heaven, Nemesis and Gigas from Inferno, Nephelai from Shadow Genesis etc. In fact Stratcomm's fleet is colligated always wich AoA, even if these ships were made for other purposes. I want to be sure that models we made especialy for my mod won't be used by anyone before release, and models will be coligated with this specified mod. Ofc. milions of exclusive models kept in neverending proces of mod making... It's like a crime :P. Just like BWO and Inferno did.
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Actually it doesn't matter which mod it appears in first. I used Steve-o's fighters in a mod before WiH released and everyone still thinks they're UEF fighters, because the mod I made with them was stupid and bad.
So, by trying to "force" the association it only means that you think your mod is going to be mediocre and not memorable enough, or you're afraid of people making something better before you're done. And in the end, even that won't matter if someone comes around and does make something better after you're done people will remember the asset's role more in the better mod.
Stop trying to play this pointless game people, and free-release your assets. When BP ends up using it your mod will be forgotten anyway :P
Don't fight it, it's futile.
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Droid's right, having the ship is pointless - using it well is all that matters. Everybody remembers the Generation from Transcend, even though it was just a stock Deimos.
Just dump everything public when it's ready to roll. It's worked great so far and it helps everybody else out - think of how many projects Inferno jumpstarted with their asset releases. We're all in this together.
e: Of course you're free to handle things as you please, this is just my impression on what's been best both for projects and the community so far. Everybody wins.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk1qVgNevz8#t=0m21s
The Tychicus is a beefed up Strike Cannon from Colony Wars! :D
On the release immediately/release with everything debate, I have no strong feelings. But I wonder what people do more often, hold stuff until release, or release stuff as soon as they make them?
Also, do people get any hassle who don't release immediately, but no one knows it exists until it arrives with the mod?
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Funnily enough, Blue Planet resembles the behavior of the Vishnans by seeking to absorb released HQ ships.
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Funnily enough, Blue Planet resembles the behavior of the Vishnans by seeking to absorb released HQ ships.
A bad analogy, since these are non-zero-sum transactions. Using an asset doesn't decrease anyone else's ability to get utility out of it.
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Not this debate again. :rolleyes: It's Betrayal's model, he and his team did the work, and so keeping it exclusive for the sake of establishing association is entirely legit. Complaining about it and trying to pressure him into releasing it only makes you guys look spoiled and entitled (Cue "We're not trying to pressure him..." from people who don't understand what pressure means).
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Not that interpretation of this debate again. :rolleyes: Keeping it exclusive for the sake of establishing association doesn't work, and giving opinions with clear caveats that he can manage it however he likes only makes us look like people with the best interests of the community in mind and an eye for what's worked out so far.
e: guess I forgot to work in some kind of goofy ad hominem but :effort:; a better way to handle this bilaterally would just be to present the general case for hanging on to the model and recognize that Betrayal has every right to pick what he'd prefer to do. It's just one ship.
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...and giving opinions with clear caveats that he can manage it however he likes...
Hoarding assets = evil.
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I am perfectly in agreement with you that Matth could use a lot of work on nuance - I am not particularly fond of this kind of talk coming from someone with a BP badge - but Matth is 1/4 of this discussion, and 'you guys' is plural.
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Specifics of wording aside, I'm sure Betrayal had seen the arguments on both sides before he made his decision (they come up often enough, but if you hadn't, Betrayal, let me know and I'll admit I was wrong). We surely don;t need to keep rehashing them every time someone shows off an exclusive asset.
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Seriously BP guys, get off your high horses. I am ashamed of your actions in this topic just now.
Betrayal already stated that he's using already publicly available assets for almost everything and the few exceptions will be released along with the mod. He's perfectly entitled to do that considering the effort he (and his team where/if applicable) have put on those assets. What is important, is that the assets will be available eventually. Pressuring him to release them now should be beneath you.
Or should I remind you that the UED Solaris made by esarai was pretty much exclusive asset of BP2, as the other mod never made an actual release. Besides as you should be aware, development of mods tends to keep up right up to release of the mod. Why should he be forced to release something that may yet see much improvement between now and release of his mod?
Or do you feel like our community is so threatened by this that we can't wait for such time as to when Betrayal feels he's mod is ready enough to be released? Now think very carefully what you want to constitute here as hoarding of exclusive assets. As of now, Betrayal is an active modder working on mod(s) that at least on glance, seem to be well on their way towards finishing line. By all means suggest that he could release his exclusive assets sooner rather than later. But don't dogpile on him and most of all, don't use offensive or condescending tone when doing so. That is far bigger risk to this community than hoarding of assets.
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The Solaris was released literally the instant it was done. You're jumping at shadows here - people have presented a case for a (really good, mutually beneficial) way of handling assets that's helped lift this community out of a pretty difficult period. You're getting pretty worked up here.
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All right guys time to step away and take a deep breath, this is getting a little heated for my tastes in a thread like this.
while hoarding assets is less than ideal for the majority of mod makers, the timing of release is a right that those involved in it's creation have to be exercised as they feel appropriate and choosing a later date makes them no lesser people.
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strike through as no longer relevant due to split
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It'll get split out anyway. What's important to me here is just pointing out that, historically, using an asset first has never been as important as using it well - which brings me back to what I've always tried to drive home here, that this is not a zero-sum game, that we're all better off focusing on cooperation to make better material, that anyone with the time to learn to FRED and a few good ideas can make a first-rate product.
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Or do you feel like our community is so threatened by this that we can't wait for such time as to when Betrayal feels he's mod is ready enough to be released?
Who speaks about threatened ? What this tangent has shown so far is that there are enough people who care about the problem to discuss about it. Are you afraid of discussion ?
Why should he be forced to release something that may yet see much improvement between now and release of his mod?
If you're thinking waiting until an asset is done, and hoarding it until the mod is done, are the same thing, then you have no idea what you're talking about. Betrayal has clearly stated he was doing the latter, so this point is as moot as it gets.
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I really am not fond of the approach of berating people for their decisions. Presenting the advantages and letting people choose on their own is a better way to handle it.
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aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgh
why
bad thing is done again
bad thing happen now
thread crash into ground, go boom eventually
locking happen and ****storm will be added to
confrontational bads pile up and angry argumentation fight occur
community divide community into community vs community
please do not do the confrontational bads, it helps tribalism spread and make people too angry at each other to want to exchange interesting discussions
do not want to see the bad thing happen :(
(i'm just really ****ing tired okay, i had a ****ty day too)
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(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr281/Patsilentbob/InBeforeTheLock.gif)
I would like to say that it should be up to the author to decide when to release something. If it's a collab, then it should involve some kind of vote by all the people who worked on an asset. No one else should have a say or use peer pressure to force some subconsciously to release their work.
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I do think it's wrong to pressure someone. Either way. They made it, they should decide what to do with it.
It could discourage people from making stuff in the first place.
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I made it, I am not discouraged and I am all for releasing it. I'll upload the unmodified version, because Scooby gave it quite a facelift, and I sugest releasing the modified version as well, if Scooby doesn't mind.
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Of course the people who made it have the right to make their own decision about it. They have also the right to know it's a bad decision. Not telling them is not helping them.
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Just curious, does the community expect a TC like Diaspora to release it's models the instant we have a fully finished POF ready? I'm understanding a lot of the reasoning put forth by the people in the thread but I'm genuinely curious what a mod like that should do in order to maintain the spirit of cooperation.
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basically if you dont want this dont release teaser shots of your assets
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Just curious, does the community expect a TC like Diaspora to release it's models the instant we have a fully finished POF ready? I'm understanding a lot of the reasoning put forth by the people in the thread but I'm genuinely curious what a mod like that should do in order to maintain the spirit of cooperation.
That's a really interesting question. If you've got a community of active mission builders who would benefit from it, I would probably lean in the direction of popping it ASAP - it's not going to hurt you in any meaningful way, and getting the new ship set up and installed will help those FREDders branch out into tabling. The downside is that this could create technical difficulties if you've got to fix something with the model later for the release proper and earlier versions of it start overriding later, fixed ones.
The Diaspora community is more consumer-oriented than creator-oriented, and I think the general project tendency is more towards the standards of a 'real' game. What do you think?
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I believe that releasing assets before R1 would not have helped because 1) the modding fanbase was nonexistant since this was before release, and much more importantly, 2) they wanted to stay under the radar of whoever have the rights to C&D.
Now that R1 is out of the door and that they have attracted potential modders, regularly releasing assets would be an excellent way to keep that community alive, giving them more stuff to build missions with and giving them regularly a good occasion to dust off their FREDing skills. It's a long wait until R2 and it seems most of the potential FREDers have already deserted the ship.
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Another question could be workflow. iirc, most professionally developed games develop their assets in passes, where an entire "fleet" of models get improved incrementally many times, and models are not really finished until the entire thing is almost done. I prefer to operate this way, simply because I like to work on what I'm most excited to work on. The pressure for release can operate counter to this method, however.
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The Tychicus is a beefed up Strike Cannon from Colony Wars! :D
Good Old Days! :D
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Many people have released WIP but playable ships followed by a more complete version later on. The Newet (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GVC_Newet) is one such example. This does not disrupt the workflow in any meaningful way.
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No, but it creates an tech support nightmare.
Personally, i don't think that an additional freighter or other civvie ship would make a difference, it wouldn't draw in fresh FREDer blood, just because a new ship was released.
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The Tychicus is a beefed up Strike Cannon from Colony Wars! :D
Good Old Days! :D
Aw yeah!
A Colony Wars Freespace mod would be so awesome, wouldn't it? :D
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The Solaris was released literally the instant it was done. You're jumping at shadows here - people have presented a case for a (really good, mutually beneficial) way of handling assets that's helped lift this community out of a pretty difficult period. You're getting pretty worked up here.
Because I don't like people using my ships as an example of exclusivity, I'm gonna confirm Battuta's statement in hopes it kills this argument once and for all: the Solaris was the last asset to be completed prior to WiH's release. Everyone assumes we were holding onto it, but this couldn't be further from the truth. If the Solaris had been excluded, WiH could have launched 2 days earlier.
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if only the karuna had been completed too amirite
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I don't think it was even started until month after the original release.
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The Diaspora community is more consumer-oriented than creator-oriented... What do you think?
I think that the communities like the Diaspora community are trying to capture an entirely different market than the rest of the FreeSpace communities, which happens to be more consumer-oriented. Even if Diaspora isn't a consumer-oriented market (which they are), I think they should have more leeway because the market they're trying to capture do not (at the time) play/mod on the FreeSpace Open engine. And even if the target audience can now mod and play Diaspora, the market they're still trying to capture is still very new and still developing. Without a strong lead spur content creation, I believe that the Diaspora developers should be able to hold on to their assets without being viewed as asset hoarders.
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Besides, Diaspora assets are of little use outside Diaspora itself, usually being very noticeably BSG-related. Really important stuff like scripts or code were actually released before the project itself.
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Besides, Diaspora assets are of little use outside Diaspora itself, usually being very noticeably BSG-related. Really important stuff like scripts or code were actually released before the project itself.
That doesn't stop several people from using WCS or Scooby ships in FreeSpace mods despite being noticeably WC-related, now does it?