Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Kazan on June 30, 2002, 07:18:16 pm
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hey, we theoretically shoould be able to locate the MVE decompression routines and what not in the origional executeable correct?
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The words "Needle in a flaming haystack" spring to mind. You could get something like the abel-gratis patch maker to compare the files and make a patch, then pull the patch apart and see what was different about the two exe's.
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it woldn't be that hard
ever heard of SYMBOL TABLE :P
besides, we could always run it through a deassembler if we find someone who reads asm
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I think it isn't worth the effort, but if you want to and can get it done, theres no reason not to (other than it would probly violate some silly copywrite law)
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.MVE format was copywrighted by Intercrap.
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so :P if we dllink() to the freespace 2 executeable :P
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Originally posted by Unkown Target
.MVE format was copywrighted by Intercrap.
Yeah, which means we can't alter, reproduce or redistribute the MVE stuff, but seen as all that will be happening will be the finding of the actual code and doing nothing with it (;)), no breaches of copyright have been made.
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Refresh my memory, why do we want the MVE decompression thingies?
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to play cutscenes
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And wouldn't it be much cooler to do cutscenes in something like DivX?
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yes, but we still wouldn't be able to play the originals
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Originally posted by Kazan
yes, but we still wouldn't be able to play the originals
So?:p
I already seen the originals 20.000 times, they get kinda boring:)
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Originally posted by Kazan
yes, but we still wouldn't be able to play the originals
Not too big of a deal, just have two copies of FS2 stuff-the source and the real one. All that's needed then is some way to share the VP files :nod:
I don't see MVE support as being that big of a deal. We can't write MVE files, and if we could then it's very likely Interplay would not be happy, and might take such extreme measures as asking GameSpy to shut down HLP.
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yes, but we still wouldn't be able to play the originals
Point taken. If I had to choose however, I'd probably say DivX or like open format. Then we could have our own proper cutscenes...in a tenth of the size.
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i didn't say we had to support only MVE :P
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Fair enough :D
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decompiling (or whatever -- hacking the EXE) is a big no-no AFAIK.
We have a fairly liberal license agreement w/ the source, but there's probably a lot of stuff we're not allowed to do w/ the V-Interplay program. (You know, when you installed there was all that stuff you didn't read, but clicked "I AGREE" at the bottom anyhow ;) ) I'm pretty sure that having the source doesn't change the license for the EXE program, but IANAL. Plus we run the risk of "poisoning" the open version if we add copyrighted stuff that was lifted w/out permission.
As far as DIVX goes, it's a nice idea, but is anyone really going to make new cutscenes for their campaigns? This point was made at the developer's chat last weekend. The consensus was that making a cutscene would probably be a lot tougher than making a mod...
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you do not have to decompile an executable to look at it's symbol table and fetch functions out of it
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Originally posted by Kazan
you do not have to decompile an executable to look at it's symbol table and fetch functions out of it
Symbols have been stripped.
Ummm not like I used dumpbin or anything like that on the EXE :nervous:
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Originally posted by penguin
As far as DIVX goes, it's a nice idea, but is anyone really going to make new cutscenes for their campaigns? This point was made at the developer's chat last weekend. The consensus was that making a cutscene would probably be a lot tougher than making a mod...
That depends on a lot of things. From what I hear it's relatively easy to do, as compared to in-game cutscenes; I see either of these as being a bigger help to campaigns than specular maps or bump mapping and other graphics improvements-it gives a lot more room for plot development. Plus, it helps restore Freespace to what it was before the multiplayer and cutscenes were stripped out.
Back to the topic, if all that's needed to restore functionality of MVE playing to Freespace is to call the function from the executable, I doubt it will have any legal repercussions. On the other hand, if the function actually has to be extracted from the Freespace executable and included with the source, there's a much, much, greater chance of action being taken (legal or otherwise).
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Originally posted by penguin
As far as DIVX goes, it's a nice idea, but is anyone really going to make new cutscenes for their campaigns? This point was made at the developer's chat last weekend. The consensus was that making a cutscene would probably be a lot tougher than making a mod...
let's make a shorter answer than WMCoolmon:
yes, we would. some peoples like the MT staff already work on them, and I do plan to put some in OTT ( if divx is to be supported ), not only coz it would be cool, but also coz I can :p
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Originally posted by darkage
So?:p
I already seen the originals 20.000 times, they get kinda boring:)
The FS2 intro is still the best intro I've ever seen.
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I hate to mention this.... No, I actually don't.
Don't violate the DMCA. Interplay has said "no" to the MVE stuff, it was stripped out for a reason.
Don't get legit development here squashed because you don't want to follow the rules.
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inquisitor the DMCA can kiss my ass, im waiting for an opportunity to challenge the DMCA in court.
Not to mention before they can come knocking on your door they have to send you a warning, and since we're just linking to a publically available executeable they cannot say anything
not to mention this entire discussion was theoretical
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So in addition to being an expert coder, you also have a law degree, eh?
You really should pay more attention to HOW the DMCA has been enforced and pursued. There was that case where they started going after a professor, and that was NOTHING but theory. Also consider Blizzard's recent crusade against bnetd.
Circumventing Interplay's express wishes and the efforts of Volition to remove Interplay IP so they could release this source code to us is MUCH less noble that the professors academic work. Theoretical or not, you are either going to get yourself (or worse, us) in trouble if you continue down this path.
Of course, you refuse to cooperate on so many levels, why should I be surprised if you ignore this?
Weren't you the one who said all the other video methods sucked, and insisted people use DivX?
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inquisitor - i didn't insit on ****, so monkey off
I was addressing individual protocols, and if you notice i haven't been editing the source myself - therefore i haven't insisted on ****.
Infact it would be best to support multiple file formats, divx, avi, etc.
Now you can go and worry yourself to death about whether a "discussion about whether it would be possible to dllink to the origional executable to watch the origional cutscenes is possible or not" will piss off Interplay and have them TRY and use the DMCA
IIRC that profesor got them off his back
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Read your own posts on the subject of cutscenes, shall I link them? According to you, anyone who wouldn't use DivX (albeit for a new implementation) was an idiot as far as you were concerned.
Hope you have cash, son, you're gonna get someone in a lot of trouble on of these days.
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[Snide]Yes, adult[/snide]
Go bother someone that has time for your DMCA sniveling
i didn't actually expect this to get implemented
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Stop, now. Both of you. Inquisitor is right - if anything is going to be done then it must be legal, even if the entire community shuns DMCA and what they (or it means, I don't know) - we still have to keep everything we do legal.
DivX seems to be the favourite for future movie installations and as near as I can make out it's a good idea that is perfectly legal to implement. We don't need MVE support and it's certainly not high on a list of things to do, if it violates laws then it's even less approved and since those on the SCP are those who decide what goes into the "official" modifcation everyone has to agree. I don't see that happen - especially since you (Kazan) just admited that you didn't expect it to get implemented.
Suffice to say, keep things legal. Obey the rules - even if they are stupid ones. And please keep the outbursts to a null - I really don't want to get trigger happy again.
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:)
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Done :)
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So..... is it possible to simply redesign the system so it'll read DIVX movies as well as MVEs? I don't claim to be an expert on the legalities of this, but that should (theoretically anyhow) allow you to put in fan-made movies without having to mess with anything Interplay-owned.
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I realy don't think this would be worth the trouble, legal or otherwise, I honestly don't give a damn about DMCA, but this realy would be more of a waste of time than anything else,
if you can get it done easily, then do it outside the main comunity and have it be like MVExtract were there is no offical site with it but if you're in the comunity enough to know about it then you can probly find someone with it, but I realy don't care if the origonal movies can play or not becase I've seen them all already, I would rather you worked on getting FS up to DX8 or built a few new data types or something worth while like that
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A compromise might be to make it possible for the source to run an EXE file for a cutscene, or whatever other implementation is decided. This would allow the cutscene to use a different format, and if someone happens to have the MVEs as EXEs, they could make use of a modified SEXP to play them (the original cutscenes).
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ya, a run EXE sExp,
this could have other uses too, like swiching to FPS engine, and it would probly be easier than... some realy easy... thing...
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EXE is the bets way, mainly because we have some form of converting to that (I have MVEExtract if no-one else has).... IMO, putting in MVE support is simply asking for trouble - if it's expressly illegal (which I think it is - it's effectively a breach of trademark). Whilst Interplay may not be so bothered about it themselves, hosting sites certainly would.
IMo, new movies aren't that hard to do.... simple stuff is easy (flybys, a little text fade), but in terms of yer bang-per-meg, it's not really worth it except where absolutely necessarry for a story.
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My question is, is it merely the MVE format that is copyrighted, or are the images and sounds of the actual FreeSpace 2 cutscenes also off-limits? For example, if one were to output the audio/video sequence to one's VCR and record it on tape, and then make a DivX or something from that recording, would that be illegal?
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Personally I'd rather see some kind of other movie graphics support.
Anyone who plays the source-code version still needs the original game to install the dang thing (I'm pretty sure of that at least, unless some idiot tries distributing it and the 3cd's worth of .vp's and stuff too. *bad idea*) So if they want to see the movies they can just finish the game then run the regular game and view the cutscenes.
Or, we could put something up, just a screen whenever there would be a cutscene saying "play cutscene "the ancients 1" now" to tell the person to go and run the original to see it.
But as far as MVE goes, it is still a valid movie format that could be used in future games. If they released it too then they'd be giving away a possible trade secret that some programmer spent good hours on to get working.
The last thing I want to see is an official Cease & Desist order from intercrap over this and have it nuke the whole project.
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would it still be ilegal just to make an avi and make a fred sexp to play it as mabey a new window or somin? or just make em command briefing ani's with the voice over as the sound, although command briefings kinda lack something that a full on movie has. namely size.
this is just an idea so don't nuke me yet :):nervous:
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Using something like DivX I think would be perfectly legal because as I understand it...DivX is an open source kind of format and not owned by anyone in particular....and while I bet Blizzard has a license for using it in War3, we don't need that because anything that we're doing is not being sold. Plus any number of community people could then do "full screen" cutscenes for campaigns.
would it still be ilegal just to make an avi and make a fred sexp to play it as mabey a new window or somin? or just make em command briefing ani's with the voice over as the sound, although command briefings kinda lack something that a full on movie has. namely size.
I don't think I understand what you mean.
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I think he means making the movie as an .ani file and using it + the sound as a command briefing.
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no, i ment that just making a command briefing ani as another last-resort option-instead of a voice-over, have the movie sound
what i ment initially was that you make the move and save it as a windows .avi, then using the source code make a "play movie" fred2 sexp to play a specified avi movie before the briefing somehow. it *might* work :)
fixed really stupid mistake.
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As far as I know, any non Interplay mechanism for playing MVE's is expressly (it's early, raining, and I forget how to spell) illegal. I may be snivelling, but I am right ;)
We do still need someone to write the DivX player, any takers?
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So how does this sound for a solution that hopefully doesn't offend anyone (neither here nor at Interplay)...
We include a DIVX player. People who write new campaigns can put DIVX-formatted cutscenes and all is good, they play normally where they should.
But in the main FS2 capaign, when you get to a point where a cutscene would be played (e.g., before mission SM1-09 there is a "Briefing Cutscene: colossus.mve"), the show_movie routine instead looks for "colossus.dvx" If it's found, we play it, else we continue silently.
That way if the person playing the game has the (gray-market) MVE converter and really wants to see the cutscenes, he can convert it on his own and they'll show up in the game correctly. But we (the developers) don't get in trouble because we are ignoring MVE files.
Fair enough?
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Can a (half) newbie put his humble opinion?
Did you ever think about game cutscenes using the engine itself?
It is a widely used solution and you just need to add a few automation routines in the source code...
Even (if i'm not wrong) Homeworld and Starlances uses engine cutscenes, at least in part...
Could be a good solution, and you can add some sexp in fred, allowind most modders to make their cutscenes...
If you want to use real movies then try Windows Media, wich is free as Divx and has much better quality...
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Originally posted by Zarax
If you want to use real movies then try Windows Media, wich is free as Divx and has much better quality...
I think some people would like to convert FS2 to Linux, which sort of rules out WinMedia... I betcha MS has some little code that makes it windows only, like the they tried to do with Java (amongst others)
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Windows media also supports ISO MPEG (wich is even more portable than Divx) and in this case quality will be more or less Divx level.
It is more flexible than you would think, you can even download for free tools for placing it in various digital devices (x86 code also is supported, wich means that a good programmer can make a mini player even for linux if you want).
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MPEG[Quality/Bytes] < DivX[Quality/Bytes]
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If you support windows media you can add Divx codecs later, it's really simple to do it.
And, as i already said, a good programmer can add windows media support even for linux.
If you want to compare their quality i can put two streams on the internet and you will see...
I will just add that windows media VCDs are 90 - 95% quality of the original DVD and don't need resize...
Divx simply cannot do it.
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Zarax that's crap, i've have a Divx copy of congo here that shows that the format CAN do it i've never seen any other format able to preserve the quality that well
DivX resizes great also.. as for the resolution, that copy of congo only takes up somewhere around 1/4 of my 1600x1200 screen when im not stretching it to fullscreen [thought it is in 16:9 widescreen]
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Kazan, i'm talking about reasonable sizes, remember that video cannot be 200mb+ giants otherwise no one would download them.
Anyways, windows media is a professional video format even used by big producers like columbia and so on...
And, please don't tell me what is crap and not because video formats are my work...
Just to go back to my original post...
What do you think about using the game engine for cutscenes?
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-rw------- 1 Kazan Kazan 722209280 May 13 19:36 congo_[divx].avi
see that, look at the size - that's the ENTIRE movie - congo in impeccable quality at a resolution of 640 x 368 - and it has no problem strectching up to 1600x920 to run fullscreen.. and i only have a measly 600mhz PIII
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I have done Matrix on CD, 720x576 try to resize it as much as you want, i can't go over 2048, it has no problems.
Oh, i almost forgot... 700kbs audio+video bitrate...
Any codec, given enough bandwidth can make lossless video compression.
Thousands sources proved that Windows Media is the best quality/bitrate codec available.
Don't let anti - microsoft prejudice fool you.
And, let's drop codecs, ok?
I posted about using the game engine instead of ANY video codec, ok?
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my hatred for microsoft is not clouding my judgement of the quality of their codecs - it will stop me from supporting any usage of their codecs - but it doesn't keep me from doing a real analysis of their codecs
like i said DivX[Quality / Bytes] über alles
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Ok, i will not waste other words with deaf ears...
Now, what do you think about the usage of the game engine itself for the cutscenes?
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as in the playing be integrated? that's logical
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As concept it's simple and widely used.
A few sexp can be added to manage it, basically the game needs to disable player control and move the camera/make the ships perform actions.
Controlling everything trough sexps most fredders will make with ease.
It's a simple, clean, time and space saving system.
It may be not as spectacular as video cutscenes but with optimization you wouldn't miss them.
Just watch games like HW or Starlancer and the way they uses them...
If a decent programmer wants to make it i'm sure it can be done in less than a week.
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doing THAT? um no
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Yes, as most data is already present.
As i said, you need to add a few sexps, and it's a thing quick enough to be done, and the camera control code needs only a few changes...
Maybe about one hundred code lines?
Maybe a little bit more but it's much easier than it looks
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Didn't DaveB say something about a video-in-game thingy being in there already? Couldn't that be adapted?
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I tend to agree with Zarax. There's even code to interpolate from view matrix A to view matrix B in the vector math header
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DivX, if I've heard correctly, is open source. That means less likelihood of legal issues.
Also, doesn't Windows Media use .wmv? If that's true, I've seen many programs support .AVI output with a codec, but not so many that support .wmv output.
On in-game cutscenes, it seems to me that many of the programmers want to use them, while the larger campaign makers want true cutscenes. I lean towards rendered cutscenes myself, since you can make a FS-quality movie pretty easily with 3DS or Lightwave, as far as I know. Certainly, it's possible to do in-game cutscenes, but doing them with SEXPs will end up being unwieldy.
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Originally posted by Kazan
my hatred for microsoft is not clouding my judgement of the quality of their codecs - it will stop me from supporting any usage of their codecs - but it doesn't keep me from doing a real analysis of their codecs
Heh, I'm w/ Kazan on this one.
I'm certainly not the only developer on this project, but I will not write nor support a WM player. Divx should be more than adequate for our needs IMHO.
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Especially with the cross platform development we have going.
No argument here ;)
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would be nice if a sexp were made that gave control of the player's (players') ship(s) to regular fighter/bomber ai(s) which accept normal orders from sexps...an autopilot of sorts
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A few sexp can be added to manage it, basically the game needs to disable player control and move the camera/make the ships perform actions.
Controlling everything trough sexps most fredders will make with ease.
It's a simple, clean, time and space saving system.
It may be not as spectacular as video cutscenes but with optimization you wouldn't miss them.
Just watch games like HW or Starlancer and the way they uses them...
That would be a huge boost to mission story telling. Let me tell you. Very very beneficial. That code already has to be in there in some format because thats what happens when you go into subspace. Some development and we could have a more functional...and probably somewhat easy to use in-game cutscene system.
I think Ace had the idea of using a camera and a sort of waypoints system to accomplish it.
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A few notes on this subject:
MVE: As I understand it, in order to use a function from another file (exe or dll) the function must be exported. As far as I know, the FS2 exe does not export any functions. So I don't think we could use it like a dll. Remember, it doesn't use any FS2 specific dlls. All the FS2 code's integrated into one big exe rather then a smaller exe with dlls for different things. Why would they want to export the movie play function?
DIVX and other formats: For cross platform use, DIVX is probably one of the better choices. There are free open source DIVX encoders, decoders, and codecs that don't rely on Windows dlls. One example is the ffmpeg library/tools. It's used in mplayer and xine for Linux and the webcast Off The Hook apparently from a New York radio station. It is even usable on non-x86 systems! It can also play mpeg videos, some Real Video files, and Quicktime 2.x files. The one thing that might take some working around would be the fact that it's released under the GPL. I'm not exactly sure what that means if you want to use it in an open source non-GPL program.
In Game cutscenes: I think I know what you're talking about here. Scenes like these are used in games like Star Wars Starfighter and I think Descent 3 to some extent. It wouldn't be a bad idea. For that what would really matter is how well it's implimented from a non-programming MODDers perspective. Scenes like these would probably fit in better then an in game movie sequence. (The ships always looked cooler in the movies then they did in game. :) )
Addendum:
The movies that are used in the original campaign are copyright so transfering them to another filetype and then distributing them to other people would probably be illegal. Not sure if just converting them (like recording them on a VCR and then encoding that in a DIVX) would be illegal or not if you didn't distribute them.
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Originally posted by EdrickV
Addendum:
The movies that are used in the original campaign are copyright so transfering them to another filetype and then distributing them to other people would probably be illegal. Not sure if just converting them (like recording them on a VCR and then encoding that in a DIVX) would be illegal or not if you didn't distribute them.
Well, one can legally make as many copies as one wishes of videotapes so long as one does not distribute, so I would assume that this would also be legal. The question then is only whether Interplay would be mad if these converted files were distributed to people who already have purchased a copy of the game anyway (and of course to use the source code enhanced engines that are coming, one will still have to have purchased the game previously, since the exe by itself is useless).
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Originally posted by EdrickV
The one thing that might take some working around would be the fact that it's released under the GPL. I'm not exactly sure what that means if you want to use it in an open source non-GPL program.
I think the GPL would only affect changes to the DIVX codec itself. If we made changes to the codec, we would then be required to make available the source code -- sort of a no-brainer, since we're releasing he code anyhow. However, the changes to the codec would need to be released under the GPL; the rest of the project would not, as it is already under a separate license ("The Volition Non-Commercial Source License" ? )
I haven't researched this enough; perhaps the DIVX codec is covered under the LGPL, which is much less restrictive and is designed for libraries that would be included in other projects.
The usual caveats apply: IANAL, etc.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Well, one can legally make as many copies as one wishes of videotapes so long as one does not distribute, so I would assume that this would also be legal. The question then is only whether Interplay would be mad if these converted files were distributed to people who already have purchased a copy of the game anyway (and of course to use the source code enhanced engines that are coming, one will still have to have purchased the game previously, since the exe by itself is useless).
We definitely cannot redistribute the movies, in any format, unless Volition releases them.
The big issue is with the MVE codec itself (more accurately, the MVE file format). It is a proprietary format, trade secret of Interplay, and they're not sharing. The only MVE tools that have been released (there have been very few, and none that I'm aware of in source code format) have been removed from distribution at the request of Interplay and their lawyers.
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That does not preclude the use of a video capture program designed specifically to run at the same time as Freespace to save the movies into an AVI format so they could be played with the FSSCP executables, yes?
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
That does not preclude the use of a video capture program designed specifically to run at the same time as Freespace to save the movies into an AVI format so they could be played with the FSSCP executables, yes?
That could be done (though I'm not sure what kind of quality you'd get) and should be legal, as long as you do not distribute them to anyone else. Which means everyone who wanted to watch those movies with the new exe would have to capture their own copy.
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If it's possible to start and stop the capturer with a hotkey, all that you would have to do would be open Freespace 2 and play all the cutscenes to convert them. That's pretty easy if you've finished the campaign already :nod:
Even though that might seem like quite a bit of work, there's probably a number of people who wouldn't mind watching them again :D
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couldnt we just "convince" (:p) dave to add the cutscene source back in and compile the whole lot after we finish with the rest of the code?
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And hope he never sees that '"convince"'? :doh:
I suppose, but it would be a lot of trouble...he'd be getting about a dozen copies to compile a day, after all, as the project is hardly static :p
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Originally posted by LtNarol
couldnt we just "convince" (:p) dave to add the cutscene source back in and compile the whole lot after we finish with the rest of the code?
It would be more useful if :V: would do the MVE to DIVX* conversion on all the FS1 and FS2 cutscenes and release those files. Then we no longer have any need for MVE at all.
edit decided to rant some more: to paraphrase wmcoolmon's previous post, we will never be finished with the code! Your grandchildren will be playing this game on their PS24's!
_____
* or whatever -- the format doesn't matter, so long as it's a well documented, non-proprietary standard
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I love the old movie files, they are strangely dull and exciting at the same time in a way I dont understand.
The calm after the storm of a good mission, the reward that takes you through the hard bits.
Couldnt someone with connections just ask the people at Volition to give us new copies as MPEGS or something. We currently cant play the movies because the movie code, not the movies themselves, are not allowed to be distributed.
While they are at it perhaps they could even give us higher quality versions.
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You might want to wait a little while. This looks like it's being solved by someone on the
icculus mailling list for freespace2 :)
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How is it being solved? :confused:
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Good question. If anyone actually manages to crack MVE it will annoy interplay something chronic and make them think twice about allowing games companys to release code for 'dead' games.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Good question. If anyone actually manages to crack MVE it will annoy interplay something chronic and make them think twice about allowing games companys to release code for 'dead' games.
The code was reverse engineered from Baldur's Gate, a closed source game, sometime last year. Absolutely nothing about this has anything to do with releasing code.
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You have confused me. Are you agreeing and argueing with me at the same time?
1. We are only interested in MVE code because we have FS code
2. Interplay dont want us to have this code
3. They dont want us to crack it because that has implications for other products.
I would have thought Volition would have to run a code releasing decision like that by Interplay. Usually the publishing company owns the code writen by the software house dont they?
So if we annoy them by cracking MVE then they will put this kind of thing down as a bad experience and not do it again.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
You have confused me. Are you agreeing and argueing with me at the same time?
It seemed that you were implying that MVE was cracked as the result of Interplay releasing code. It's this implication that I disagree with.
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Has it *been* cracked?
I didnt know that, can you give me any links for details on that?
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Has it *been* cracked?
I didnt know that, can you give me any links for details on that?
A fully-functional MVE decoder was recently discovered, however it was designed to play only 8bpp MVEs. A friend of mine has modified this version to play the MVEs from Descent 3, Freespace 1, and Freespace 2.
Here is the relevant info:
http://ml.warpcore.org/descent-source/200207/msg00032.html
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Off to subscribe to icculus.
Be nice if they would come here anmd say hi :)
As for the other stuff, it's dead tech.
(duh, sorry theoddone, you are from icculus).
We're done with this, move on ;)