Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: dazo on June 02, 2013, 04:41:25 pm
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Power is in fascism.
Absolute power is in free market fascism.
>Free market capitalism provides fastest economic growth possible. However free market capitalism is "unfair", leads to extreme income inequality and destroys jobs through automation. Economic cycles produce unemployment which can lead to revolution, or redistribution of capital by the democratic government to create demand for excess human supply (e.g. The Great Depression). If being poor and unemployed was a crime then revolutions/redistribution of capital wouldn't happen. The first country to adopt free market fascism will experience huge economic growth because the bourgeoisie will be able to accumulate capital exponentially, and replace obsolete human workers with machines without any government intervention to protect the proletariat. In the end, such an economy will attain 90-95% of the world GDP. Everyone else will become mere natural resource exporters because keynesian/socialist/marxist economies won't be able to compete with free market fascism.
>Free market fascism comprises 3 social classes:
>The 1st class(fascists) consists of people who guard and regulate the system, and protect the capitalists from jealous proletarians (the artificially created middle class in the USA). If there are elections within this system, then only members of this class can vote. Though consulting the capitalist class is still possible. 1 to 10 million people are needed for this class. Tax revenue (approximately 10% of the GDP) from exploitation of capitalists is distributed more or less equally among members of the ruling class. They are the shareholders.
>2nd class("haves"): capitalists, entrepreneurs, investors, speculators, lenders, rentiers, etc. Up to 1 million people.
>3rd class("have-nots"): proletarians, including highly skilled workers, scientists and intellectuals. They are needed in the beginning, but most of them will eventually be replaced with machines and AI. Up to 100 million people.
>Japan and Germany have huge economies, yet relatively small territories (less than 400,000 km2). In free market fascism a large population won't be needed either. A territory of similar size can be created (sea platform/artificial island), or the population of a country that nobody cares about can be displaced (Somalia, Colombia, Uganda, etc.)
TL;DR Free Market Fascism is based on inverted Luddism, inverted Marxism, Malthusianism and technological singularity, it leads to fastest technological progress, economic and military power.
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The thing is, too many people confuse free-market with new-age imperialism, it's inherent in the risk of allowing industry to influence politics that is the danger, not capitalism itself if executed properly and within its own guidelines., which have existed the whole time but are largely ignored for convenience.
Rome was running an autonomous, war-established, but trade-maintained empire for centuries, the concept works, the execution gets corrupted.
I think the real problem sits with the fact that bankers etc. talk about exploiting the 'housing bubble' or the 'social networking bubble' and don't realize they are working within the Money Bubble, they are concepts within concepts. People forget that any bubble can burst under enough stress, even the big one.
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Will there be sex-changing robot dragons?
Boo. Serious-taking this isn't fun possible without wine and I can't delete. :(
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everyone should go out, find someone who makes more money than them, and then impale them.
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fascism.
fascism.
fascism
fascism.
fascism
fascism
Fascism
You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.
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>Free market capitalism provides fastest economic growth possible.
Explain China.
However free market capitalism is "unfair", leads to extreme income inequality and destroys jobs through automation.
Please cite a source for this.
Economic cycles produce unemployment which can lead to revolution, or redistribution of capital by the democratic government to create demand for excess human supply (e.g. The Great Depression).
A bit more facts and less conspiracy theory, please.
If being poor and unemployed was a crime then revolutions/redistribution of capital wouldn't happen.
Please cite a source.
The first country to adopt free market fascism will experience huge economic growth because the bourgeoisie will be able to accumulate capital exponentially, and replace obsolete human workers with machines without any government intervention to protect the proletariat.
See Starslayer above re: Not knowing what fascism is.
In the end, such an economy will attain 90-95% of the world GDP. Everyone else will become mere natural resource exporters because keynesian/socialist/marxist economies won't be able to compete with free market fascism.
I do note a distinct lack of examples.
>Free market fascism comprises 3 social classes:
>The 1st class(fascists) consists of people who guard and regulate the system, and protect the capitalists from jealous proletarians (the artificially created middle class in the USA). If there are elections within this system, then only members of this class can vote. Though consulting the capitalist class is still possible. 1 to 10 million people are needed for this class. Tax revenue (approximately 10% of the GDP) from exploitation of capitalists is distributed more or less equally among members of the ruling class. They are the shareholders.
>2nd class("haves"): capitalists, entrepreneurs, investors, speculators, lenders, rentiers, etc. Up to 1 million people.
>3rd class("have-nots"): proletarians, including highly skilled workers, scientists and intellectuals. They are needed in the beginning, but most of them will eventually be replaced with machines and AI. Up to 100 million people.
Please explain the basis for these numbers.
>Japan and Germany have huge economies, yet relatively small territories (less than 400,000 km2). In free market fascism a large population won't be needed either. A territory of similar size can be created (sea platform/artificial island), or the population of a country that nobody cares about can be displaced (Somalia, Colombia, Uganda, etc.)
Please explain how Japan and Germany are relevant to your theories.
TL;DR Free Market Fascism is based on inverted Luddism, inverted Marxism, Malthusianism and technological singularity, it leads to fastest technological progress, economic and military power.
No.
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37008909.jpg)
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Was this split from somewhere? I'm at a loss. I can't decide if the OP is a bot, strange troll, or second-year philosophy/sociology student with a conspiracy bent.
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I'd rather be a pig than a fascist.
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I'd rather be a pig than a fascist.
Judging by the rhetoric of some college-age individuals, the terms are interchangeable.
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he kinda reminds me of some kind of college student who just read the communist manifesto (or some other manifesto in this case) for the first time and was for some reason or another completely blown away.
yea, things dont work that way.
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Was this split from somewhere? I'm at a loss. I can't decide if the OP is a bot, strange troll, or second-year philosophy/sociology student with a conspiracy bent.
This!
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China is the perfect match between a totalitarian single party state rule dictatorship and free market capitalism.
As Zizek usually puts it, until this time, one good thing (at least) could be said about capitalism: sooner or later, this kind of system would "demand" a democracy, stemming almost naturally from the premises of "freedom" and "individualism" and so on. But now, this so-called "capitalism with eastern values" is quite different, for it marries apparently without problems the worst traits of dictatorship with the worst traits of capitalism, while being extremely dynamic. See Singapore as an example of this.
I still believe that once China hits a wall (it will hit it, sooner or later) of any kind of economic stagnation, then the populace will recapitulate Tiananmen 89 until the government collapses. But will it be too late then? Should we be pessimists or optimists? I'm somewhat grim nowadays.
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Calling free-market capitalism "fascism" might be the worst Godwin* I've ever seen. You cannot compare the two systems. One has little governmental economic involvement, and the other has a massive amount of it.
I suspect the OP is either a Marxist or a troll.
*:Hitler was a fascist.
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I am strongly on the troll side of the debate, given that this dude only has three posts, and this is the only one with anything resembling content.
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>>See this thread
>>My reaction:
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g449/Ironcitadel99/DreddBurning.gif)
Yeah, I don't think this is going anywhere fast.
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Calling free-market capitalism "fascism" might be the worst Godwin* I've ever seen. You cannot compare the two systems. [/size]
It's also completely wrong. Fascism is a type of government, while capitalism is a type of economy. Hitler's Germany was Nazist (it's a different thing than fascism, though rather similar, if more extreme), while still being capitalist. In theory, you're perfectly free to have an authoritarian capitalist regime or a communist democracy. The former did exist, the latter in name only.
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Calling free-market capitalism "fascism" might be the worst Godwin* I've ever seen. You cannot compare the two systems. [/size]
It's also completely wrong. Fascism is a type of government, while capitalism is a type of economy. Hitler's Germany was Nazist (it's a different thing than fascism, though rather similar, if more extreme), while still being capitalist. In theory, you're perfectly free to have an authoritarian capitalist regime or a communist democracy. The former did exist, the latter in name only.
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Economics
Hitler believed that private ownership was useful in that it encouraged creative competition and technical innovation, but insisted that it had to conform to national interests and be "productive" rather than "parasitical". Private property rights were conditional upon the economic mode of use; if it did not advance Nazi economic goals then the state could nationalize it. Although the Nazis privatised public properties and public services, they also increased economic state control. Under Nazi economics, free competition and self-regulating markets diminished; nevertheless, Hitler's social Darwinist beliefs made him reluctant to entirely disregard business competition and private property as economic engines.
To tie farmers to their land, selling agricultural land was prohibited. Farm ownership was nominally private, but discretion over operations and residual income were proscribed. That was achieved by granting business monopoly rights to marketing boards to control production and prices with a quota system.
Doesn't sound like a free-market economy to me. People often forget that fascism stems from socialism.
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This system wasn't really free-market, but wasn't communist either. It was more socialist than what most of the EU has now, but not by that much. Not to mention with the whole WWII thing going on, they had to have a wartime economy, and with that, plenty of government control. Free economic competition and free market actually fit quite nicely in Hitler's beliefs (social darwinism and all that). Not that he did much about the economy anyway, aside from setting some general directives.
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I'd rather be a pig than a fascist.
Judging by the rhetoric of some college-age individuals, the terms are interchangeable.
No, literally.
(http://i.imgur.com/33uOkWe.jpg)
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Eh? I though fascism was the merging of industry and state (see USA) and communism was all about destroying industry and (centralized) government once there were enough products to distribute among a populace?
redsniper: Your image is borked.
EDIT: This is oversimplified, by the way.
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Weird, I could see it on my end.
e: Here, let's have Deus Ex's take on it too, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kihGm4KfY7k#t=35s
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I'd rather be a pig than a fascist.
Judging by the rhetoric of some college-age individuals, the terms are interchangeable.
No, literally.
(http://i.imgur.com/33uOkWe.jpg)
Fixed that for you.
Now how about a little of this...
(http://fc01.deviantart.net/images3/i/2004/153/2/e/Pig_Roast__Suikoden_II.jpg)
:)
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1. No you didn't. I just reuploaded the pic and changed the link.
2. Wtf
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Calling free-market capitalism "fascism" might be the worst Godwin* I've ever seen. You cannot compare the two systems. [/size]
It's also completely wrong. Fascism is a type of government, while capitalism is a type of economy. Hitler's Germany was Nazist (it's a different thing than fascism, though rather similar, if more extreme), while still being capitalist. In theory, you're perfectly free to have an authoritarian capitalist regime or a communist democracy. The former did exist, the latter in name only.
I may have made a mistake by reading the OP with the definition of free-market capitalism that I generally hear. I suppose a fascist state could have a fairly laissez-faire economy, although a dictator would likely establish a great degree of economic control.
Nazism shares all of Fascism's horrible far-right ideas, so I think it's entirely fair to put it under the same umbrella, and in fact it often has.
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No, literally.
You only say that because the redhead is giving him the bedroom eyes.
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1. No you didn't. I just reuploaded the pic and changed the link.
2. Wtf
Yes I did.
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Doesn't free market capitalism have the potential to take away individual liberties on a similar scale to fascism?
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Doesn't free market capitalism have the potential to take away individual liberties on a similar scale to fascism?
It certainly does, since rich people buying the laws is an inevitable conclusion of free market capitalism
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Doesn't free market capitalism have the potential to take away individual liberties on a similar scale to fascism?
It certainly does, since rich people buying the laws is an inevitable conclusion of free market capitalism
Even barring that, though, employee-employer relationships start off asymmetrical.
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Problem is, we automatically tend towards hierarchical structures, that's our nature, we've been claiming we hate it for thousands of years, but we still do it.
Capitalism doesn't work in the same way that every other political of financial structure doesn't work, because no matter what rules we introduce to stop people acting like human beings, they just keep doing it.
The problem is that when breaking the rules works to the overall benefit of those in power, it tends to be ignored, even if that behaviour is ultimately self-destructive in the long term, which is a very human thing to do. What is needed is for the rules that already exist to actually be enforced.
The downside is, it's a knife-edge situation, because of the close links between industry and governance, something that hurts one hurts the other. That leaves the actual people whose money is fueling both groups as a kind of 'third party' from a political/industrial perspective.
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a) he's proposing a system of government called free market fascism, not calling the free market fascism
b) jesus christ lorric what the ****
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Fixed that for you.
Now how about a little of this...
:)
Please explain the context of this picture, how it relates to the thread, why you posted it, and what kind of point you intended to make. Because going by just the post itself, you were just spamming the thread (or condoning torture and cannibalism).
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Fixed that for you.
Now how about a little of this...
:)
Please explain the context of this picture, how it relates to the thread, why you posted it, and what kind of point you intended to make. Because going by just the post itself, you were just spamming the thread (or condoning torture and cannibalism).
I was basically saying if he wants to be a pig-man, don't be surprised if he gets pig roasted.
Now go ask him about his picture if you're going to take this line.
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So with an almost Lovecraftian drive to uncover forbidden knowledge, I found the deviantart account (http://wafflesmccoy.deviantart.com/) (warning: contains furries, crossdressers, vore?) where I must assume Lorric found this picture. Seriously, keep your fetishes to yourself rather than plastering them in random discussions and then acting blithely innocent when anyone reacts with disgust.
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So with an almost Lovecraftian drive to uncover forbidden knowledge, I found the deviantart account (http://wafflesmccoy.deviantart.com/) (warning: contains furries, crossdressers, vore?) where I must assume Lorric found this picture. Seriously, keep your fetishes to yourself rather than plastering them in random discussions and then acting blithely innocent when anyone reacts with disgust.
It is Luca Blight (villain) and Riou (hero) from Suikoden II. I like art from the game, whether official or fanart. The picture is amusing in the context of the characters. That is all. Just found by google image search a while back.
If you want to know where the pig thing comes from, watch this, if you're not bothered by spoilers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhNCbGDE4GI
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Gentlemen,
You are freaking me out.
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I was basically saying if he wants to be a pig-man, don't be surprised if he gets pig roasted.
Now go ask him about his picture if you're going to take this line.
No. Wanna know why? Because redsniper's post was harmless and inoffensive and part of a joke. You followed up that joke with another picture which was not that funny and you failed to provide little to no justification for it. Basically, you once again made the mistake of following up a tangent to a thread. You were once more dragging the thread into off-topicness, which is why I asked you to explain what you did, in the hope that I was just missing some context implied in the picture.
EDIT: Lesson being: Don't follow up a tangent unless it's a really substantial tangent that opens up other interesting discussions. And no, "I like Suikoden and when the topic of men and pigs came up, I had to think about that totally awesome scene" does not qualify as either substantial or interesting in this context.
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So, I was referencing the Ghibli movie Porco Rosso, which I was kind of hoping someone else had seen around here so we could feel slightly superior being "in the know" and all that, but nevermind.
It's about this Italian pilot cursed to look like a pig, and is set before World War 2 during the rise of fascism in Italy. "I'd rather be a pig than a fascist" was a line that stuck with me and came to mind given the topic. Given the nature of the OP, I figured it was either a bot, a troll, or both and that this wouldn't be a very serious thread, so I just gave a nod to a good movie that had a bit of relevance.
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So, I was referencing the Ghibli movie Porco Rosso, which I was kind of hoping someone else had seen around here so we could feel slightly superior being "in the know" and all that, but nevermind.
I got it.
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So, I was referencing the Ghibli movie Porco Rosso, which I was kind of hoping someone else had seen around here so we could feel slightly superior being "in the know" and all that, but nevermind.
It's about this Italian pilot cursed to look like a pig, and is set before World War 2 during the rise of fascism in Italy. "I'd rather be a pig than a fascist" was a line that stuck with me and came to mind given the topic. Given the nature of the OP, I figured it was either a bot, a troll, or both and that this wouldn't be a very serious thread, so I just gave a nod to a good movie that had a bit of relevance.
Ah. I have seen Porco Rosso, but I didn't like it, so I wouldn't remember such a thing. I thought you were just being silly.
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How many anthropomorphic pigs do you encounter on a regular basis? :wtf:
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How many anthropomorphic pigs do you encounter on a regular basis? :wtf:
I'm referring to the "I'd rather be a pig than a fascist" line. I knew instantly what the picture was from when I saw it.
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I'm referring to the "I'd rather be a pig than a fascist" line. I knew instantly what the picture was from when I saw it.
Ah. I have seen Porco Rosso, but I didn't like it, so I wouldn't remember such a thing. I thought you were just being silly.
These readings, they do not appear compatible. Inept wording or deliberate obfuscation?
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How many anthropomorphic pigs do you encounter on a regular basis? :wtf:
I'm referring to the "I'd rather be a pig than a fascist" line. I knew instantly what the picture was from when I saw it.
Ah. I have seen Porco Rosso, but I didn't like it, so I wouldn't remember such a thing. I thought you were just being silly.
:ERROR: 101 - DOES NOT COMPUTE
:GOTO: MAKE SENSE DAMN YOU
:EDIT: NINJA DETECTED
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I do not see what the problem is here.
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Whenever I see Ghibli's art something in my emotions spark. I just love Miyasaki.
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Whenever I see Ghibli's art something in my emotions spark. I just love Miyasaki.
Me too. Regardless whether I like the movie or not, there is nothing to match it imo.
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I do not see what the problem is here.
And that is why you frequently fail to comprehend the course or nature of conversations occurring on this forum, I'm pretty sure.
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I think we're done here then.