Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: CT27 on June 24, 2013, 09:30:14 pm
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Assuming that the GTVA reopens the Sol-Delta Serpentis node and that contact goes fairly well (i.e. no war like Inferno or War In Heaven) and both sides agree to integrate...
Would Sol become the GTVA Terran capital eventually or would that remain Delta Serpentis (I don't actually know if it is, but a FS2 campaign I just played said DS was the seat of government for the Terran half of the GTVA)?
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I believe that Delta Serpentis was where the provisional government was set up immediately after the Sol node collapsed. By FS2 time however, GTVA has its seat of power in Beta Aquilae.
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The exact structure of the Terran half of the GTVA is pretty loosely defined - there's a lot of room for interpretation about who precisely has power, where it's centralized etc. etc.
The nature of Sol's role in a post-reunification galaxy depends just way, way too much on exactly what's been going on in there for the several decades after FS1, as well as exactly how the Terran half of the GTVA would feel about ceding authority back to Sol. My gut feeling is that, given their integration and interactions with the Vasudans, the existing Terran authorities in the GTVA have probably moved too far away ideologically from whatever would emerge from Sol to simply give power back to them. I suspect that, assuming as you have that there wouldn't be a war, Sol would probably eventually become a separate but equal power within the framework of the GTVA, if for no other reason than mutual defence against the Shivans.
Full governmental reintegration of the Terran species would probably happen some way down the road, but I suspect it'd be a long process. The specific location of the eventual capital... again, would depend on a lot of other factors, but it would probably be Sol - but again, that would be years and years after the portal opened up.
And, of course, this is just my interpretation/belief. Yours or anyone else's could be completely different and just as valid. :D
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+1 for sol becoming the third wheel.
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I'm working on this right now. My Idea is that in order to placate Vasudan concerns of the Terran block of the GTVA becoming to powerful the Sol government remains separated from the GTVA. This also suits the colonist leadership who did not wish to hand power back to a centralised government based around Earth. Instead Earth and it's colonies will become an associate member of the alliance with no say in GTVA policy or military strategy, but will be a full trading partner allowing for the sharing and joint development of new technologies. All new colonies founded by Earth will be under the control of Earth and all colonies founded by the GTVA will be under the control of their respective governments. Shared technology and partnership in new enterprises will however start off a new golden age of reconstruction and colonisation.
The governments will slowly merge into a unified structure but the process will take decades with many bumps along the way. (inspired by the EU) In order to placate this a priority will be given to finding habitable colonies for Vasudans in order to allow them to increase their numbers which are now dwarfed by the human populace.
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I think Black Wolf has nailed it, Sol becoming the seat of the Terran government is entirely believable but only after a considerable amount of time under normal circumstances, probably in the order of generations so tens or more likely hundreds of years.
on the other hand if some large scale event were to happen where Sol could come to the rescue and seize/earn considerable political/public influence in the process then this might conceivably speed up, though there might be resentment as a result.
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BP does deal with this issue, and it makes the case that the war is a necessary evil to stop the processes that are inevitable due to the intersection between Sol's own ideologies and soft power and GTVA's objectives.
That's one possible answer out of a million. If you consider that Sol has instead imploded in downright depression, tribal warfare and, why not, nuclear war, the variables would rather shift in many different directions. If you envision however that Sol is more or less OK and the outer colonies are really an amazing economic and social miracle due to some unexpected technological changes or whatever, then a massive migration should be expected from Sol to Delta Serpentis, etc. The Power structures all depend on these much more fundamental vectors, and as we are seeing, they can vary wildly as the writer will want them to.
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the thing I like about the BP example of Sol is that the system is portrayed at the start as self sufficient with a reasonably effective government and indeed the war was not inevitable as the UEF would have at least on the surfaced welcomed the GT(V)A's return to the system.
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I tend to regard the possibility of a war in Sol (after the collapse of the nodes, that is) as a faint one, as it requires a high level of incompetence on the part of whatever standing or improvised military forces the GTA has in place when the node goes down. Spaceships are not AKs and you can't make them in your bathtub. They're high-profile, the production and infrastructure necessary for that production is easily monitored and easily interdicted. Without ships, no war is possible until a new logistic infrastructure can be assembled to create them; something that could easily be a task of decades and difficult to do in secret.
If I were to ever address this in a story, it's likely that I'd go with Sol being the guy huddled up in the corner with a gun in each hand, staring into the dark and twitching occasionally, thinking the rest of the universe is gone. Failing that, present it as a fiat accompli; Sol is a third power to the existing Terran and Vasudan voting blocks in the General Assembly.
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A system filled with rage by the other humans and vasudans linking Sol again to the rest of such a xenocidal galaxy could also be quite funny.
A war could easily start with the intent of attacking / protecting the sol jump gate. The first ones blaming the second ones for risking to bring the Shivans again, the others blaming the first for being so aggressive and calling the Shivans' attention. Finally the Shivans would become too tired of this **** and would finally wipe the galaxy of this scum. AAA material right here.
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just to remind everyone... the initial post stipulates that war does NOT break out.
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just to remind everyone... the initial post stipulates that war does NOT break out.
Yes, but why should we restrict the discussion like that when we can talk about war/not war in reasoned way?
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If Sol did become a third component of the GTVA rather than just being absorbed into the Terran part, what would their ships be designated as?
For example would one of its destroyers have the designation GED or GSD?
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Is Earth Government (EarthGov) too babylon 5?
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If Sol did become a third component of the GTVA rather than just being absorbed into the Terran part, what would their ships be designated as?
For example would one of its destroyers have the designation GED or GSD?
UED...... or EAD.... :nervous:
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You can type the full allegiance name on the ship class: SolD, SolC, SolCv, SolJ, SolSD, SolD, SolB, SolSh, SolFg, Etc. This one works because the name of the system is short.
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You can type the full allegiance name on the ship class: SolD, SolC, SolCv, SolJ, SolSD, SolD, SolB, SolSh, SolFg, Etc. This one works because the name of the system is short.
However, if they become the 'third wheel' of the GTVA, wouldn't they have to put a "G" in front?
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depends how integrated they actually are.
- If they are fully integrated into the terran block then there would be no need for a separate designator.
- If they are integrated into the alliance as a separate government/political entity then no as they are not a galactic element which i always took to meaning the government that governs all/near all Terran activity in which case something like ST - Sol Terran would be more accurate for the Sol faction
The alliance acronym would be tricky to figure out though if the Sol element was to get a separate mention if you try to do it without giving the sol faction precedence while avoiding giving them the galactic designation.
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GSTVA, GTVSA, GTSVA?
You could change the name to something else as well. Example: STV Alliance; or HV Alliance; or *Creative name here*
EDIT: or something simpler: the Triple Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Alliance_(disambiguation)) / Triple Galactic Alliance
EDIT 2: I just noticed that you can call it the Galactic Triple Alliance.
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I think Sol would be the seat of power again. After all, it is hte most well-developed and most populated human planet, with a lot of significance to the human race.
The industrial base alone would make it a power-house.
Ideological differences? I don't think there would be any that are big enough to prevent fast integration.
The Terrans and Vasudans were allies at the end of the first war, so anti-vasudan sentiment is not something I'd see a problem, especially given there there are no vasudans in Sol to breed that (unless you count the few vasudan fighters that came trough, but those wouldn't be the problem), and given that the generation that fought would be gone by then.
The NFT arised because of the economic collapse and vasudans boom - conditions that do not exist in Sol.
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GSTVA, GTVSA, GTSVA?
You could change the name to something else as well. Example: STV Alliance; or HV Alliance; or *Creative name here*
EDIT: or something simpler: the Triple Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Alliance_(disambiguation)) / Triple Galactic Alliance
EDIT 2: I just noticed that you can call it the Galactic Triple Alliance.
We were tight with the Dutch back in the day :pimp:
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United Galactic Terran-Vasudan Alliance? Everyone loves redundancy these days
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Terran Terran Vasudan Alliance. :p
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The NNGTVSAF.
Neo-Neo-Galactic-Terran-Vasudan-Shivan-Alliance-Front.
Only FRED has the power to control this alliance. :D :D :D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz4hla1TDek&feature=youtube_gdata_player
trio faces external threat?
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GSTVA, GTVSA, GTSVA?
You could change the name to something else as well. Example: STV Alliance; or HV Alliance; or *Creative name here*
EDIT: or something simpler: the Triple Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Alliance_(disambiguation)) / Triple Galactic Alliance
EDIT 2: I just noticed that you can call it the Galactic Triple Alliance.
Or just Galactic Federation of Free Alliances.
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The GTA was headquartered in Sol because that is where humans are from. The VPN was stationed in Vasuda Prime because that is where the vasudans are from. Both governments were "moved" during the great war (VPN to Aldebaran, GTA to Delta Serpentis). The GTVA is the combination of both of those governments, so it makes sense that it would be in a neutral place (Beta Aquilae). Just because Sol is reestablished doesn't mean that that is where the GTVA would move to (unless the Vasudans became greatly diminished and needed the protection of humans).
Also, even given a stable Sol, their technology would be behind the GTVA. Sure, the Lucifer wreckage would help, but they still would be behind. I think that there would be a brief skirmish at the most, maybe driven by the leaders who didn't want to give up power (kinda like a Denethor/Aragorn situation in LOTR). At the end, there would be the GTVA that is bolstered by the reintegration of Sol.
P.S. On a side note, wouldn't it be cool if the Sol technology somehow was superior to the GTVA and they reopened the jump node to delta serpentis first?
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Technology wise, it does depend on what happens after the node closes. Looking at BP, it makes sense that the technology is improved to suit their needs. While the GTVA is more advanced overall, the UEF has refined the technology, giving them a pretty dangerous edge as well.
If Sol is in complete anarchy for example, doubtful much would have changed then.
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It also should b noted that Sol would have remains from the Lucifer.
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It would have been slightly fun to have a mod where the GTVA was all behaving like the creeps they were in BP only to find out Sol had replicated the Lucifer's beams and shields' technology and applied them to a next-gen elite fleet "just in case". BP:WiH would then be about how the GTVA had again overestimated its enemy and was now in the process of trying to nuke the nodes before Sol went all biblical on their asses.
Fun for a minute or so I guess.
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EA beams in Inferno(R1) were dangerous, even than their Shivan counterparts. :shaking: :shaking:
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It would have been slightly fun to have a mod where the GTVA was all behaving like the creeps they were in BP only to find out Sol had replicated the Lucifer's beams and shields' technology and applied them to a next-gen elite fleet "just in case". BP:WiH would then be about how the GTVA had again overestimated its enemy and was now in the process of trying to nuke the nodes before Sol went all biblical on their asses.
Fun for a minute or so I guess.
I suddenly thought "beams fired through subspace" :lol:
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It would have been slightly fun to have a mod where the GTVA was all behaving like the creeps they were in BP only to find out Sol had replicated the Lucifer's beams and shields' technology and applied them to a next-gen elite fleet "just in case". BP:WiH would then be about how the GTVA had again overestimated its enemy and was now in the process of trying to nuke the nodes before Sol went all biblical on their asses.
Fun for a minute or so I guess.
This would definitely venture into annoying fanfic territory.
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... isn't that literally INF's plot.
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is it? It has been like almost ten years since I played it last time... and I wasn't exactly playing it for the plot even.
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Well, at least the whole
only to find out Sol had replicated the Lucifer's beams technology and applied them to a next-gen elite fleet "just in case". [...] would then be about how the GTVA had again overestimated its enemy
is definitely spot on.
This would definitely venture into annoying fanfic territory.
Which is quite ironic when you know BP started as an INF fanfic.
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I will always regard INF's last big playable mission (I don't even remember its name) with high esteem. That soundtrack was awesome and I didn't mind repeating that damned impossible mission 30, 40 times. Just for the soundtrack.
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That would be "Nemesis," and yeah, it's one hell of a mission.
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... isn't that literally INF's plot.
Notrly. The GTVA went in expected a peaceful recontact and the EA turned out to be a bunch of militaristic assholes who'd been waiting decades for the Shivans to poke their noses in again and these aren't Shivans, but **** it, let's roll!
The EA did the underestimating, have failed to reckon with the logistical difficulties of multi-system operations and the size of the GTVA fleet.
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If you play the unofficial Inferno RI prequel (Sol: A History), you get to watch the process of the EA becoming space Nazis.
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What I like is how similar yet different BP and INF play this out. In both, the GTVA gains ground only after the Vasudans start helping out. The difference is that, in BP, the moralities are rather grey, whereas in INF, the black and white is more obvious.
Also, INFR1 had the Vela (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTFr_Vela) and its Cargo (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Vela_Cargo). :drevil:
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What I like is how similar yet different BP and INF play this out. In both, the GTVA gains ground only after the Vasudans start helping out. The difference is that, in BP, the moralities are rather grey, whereas in INF, the black and white is more obvious.
Also, INFR1 had the Vela (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTFr_Vela) and its Cargo (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Vela_Cargo). :drevil:
Er. . . that's not so true in BP. The Vasudan's role thus far in the story has been pretty limited.
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No, Beta Aquilae would be. Sol is likely between fifteen and twenty five years behind technologically given the complete integration of the vastly superior Vasudan power systems and joint Terran-Vasudan developed beam cannons. I mean back then the GTA were using argon based laser weapons. By the end of Freespace 2 they're using large scale anti-matter warheads, directed energy beam cannons and (absurdly) quantum foam weapons.
I don't care how big your mass driver is or how many 25mm cannons you can shoot at once. The weapons the GTVA use collapse matter. Sol would need a complete rebuilding and a very quick technological catch up to be ready for the next hegemonic swarm. It would likely give a huge boost to the Terran side of the GTVA though, economically, in morale and in industrial capacity.
They'd need to be. Shivans are stubborn.
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No, Beta Aquilae would be. Sol is likely between fifteen and twenty five years behind technologically given the complete integration of the vastly superior Vasudan power systems and joint Terran-Vasudan developed beam cannons. I mean back then the GTA were using argon based laser weapons. By the end of Freespace 2 they're using large scale anti-matter warheads, directed energy beam cannons and (absurdly) quantum foam weapons.
I don't care how big your mass driver is or how many 25mm cannons you can shoot at once. The weapons the GTVA use collapse matter. Sol would need a complete rebuilding and a very quick technological catch up to be ready for the next hegemonic swarm. It would likely give a huge boost to the Terran side of the GTVA though, economically, in morale and in industrial capacity.
They'd need to be. Shivans are stubborn.
the FS1 tsunami bomb was an antimatter warhead. also in BP canon while not a match in damage those beams in pure damage the main guns on UEF ships have superior range and still do significant damage, enough so that they would have utility should the GTVA decide to use them.
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The Terran half of the GTVA was split into different blocks after the GTA was dissolved. Even after they are nominally unified under the GTVA the NTF rebellion occurs. I think this underlines how factionalised the Terrans of the GTVA are. Now imagine the conditions that existed after Capella went Nova: thousands of displaced refugees, a shattered and demoralised military and a public that pretty much has little to no faith left in the GTVA's capability to defend the Terran-Vasudan species. On top of that there's the long and painful task of assimilating Sirius, Polaris and Regulus back into the fold. Not to mention the possibility of a dormant HoL returning (if not militarily then on some level at least).
Let's assume that despite all the conditions for complete collapse that somehow they manage to keep it all together. Then imagine that contact with Sol is reastablished. I think it could easily be the catalyst for several power plays within the GTVA, Terran and Vasudan alike. There's no way the GTVA comes out of FS2 intact, there's every possiblity that their authority would be bypassed or resisted by local stellar governments that want to take matters into their own hands. There would be a reckoning against those whose duty it was to keep the systems of the GTVA safe, it's impossible that there wouldn't be. My point is, if Sol and the GTVA were to reastablish contact it would not be Sol or the GTVA as we know it (not that we "know" Sol but I digress). Personally I don't believe the GTVA would exist beyond Capella.
Sol has the infrastructure and mentality of a galactic power, by the end of FS1 it's nothing but an isolated system. The whole system is geared for war, it has been since war with the Vasudans started. Now there's all that gear, no enemy to fight and a lot of hurt pride. I don't think the GTA in Sol would go away peacefully or easily, there would be a struggle.
So you've got two pissed off populations, each with their own sub-factions. How well any contact between the two could go all depends on the timescale; if we're talking just 10-20 years after FS2 then we get BP. If we're talking more like 30-50 then well time heals all wounds right? And whose to say the Shivans don't find a backdoor into the place and glass Earth back to the stone age? :p
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I would think that the GTVA wouldn't open the Sol node (which could take a LONG time anyways) until they were ready. If you got another HoL or NTF, that is priority number one. However, I don't see the military as being shattered after Capella. Maybe demoralized, but more relieved than anything. And I don't think the public lost its confidence in the military. They defeated a big rebellion and halted a species that has destroyed other civilizations (and nearly their's). Sure, if they had failed to collapse the nodes and the shivans pursued them, they would be in big trouble.
The fact that the government is still fully functioning also gives major stability to the situation. They still have the power and authority to protect GTVA space, unlike the psuedo-GTA after FS1. It would be ludicrous for a local government to say "the GTVA didn't completely protect us against the most powerful force in the galaxy, so we think it would be best to face them by ourselves." After FS1, many probably thought the Shivans were defeated entirely. No one thought that after FS2.
I don't think that after the node collapse, Sol just couldn't stand not having anyone to fight. The Great War was short, but it was tough. Though it wasn't how they wanted to end, it was better than being wiped. They needed some "rest". If Sol is unified (however so) when contact is reestablished, the only reason I could see Sol attacking the GTVA is because they allied themselves with the Vasudans. But that all depends on who is leading Sol at that time.
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I also happen to think that within a moment of crisis, it's rather unusual for the populace to rebel against their leaders. The mistake GTVA made was to go wrong on their calculations on the Shivan threat. But they were always well aware of this blindness (listen to Petrarch's command briefings where he warns of the danger of miscalculations here), they designed contigency plans (some more successful than others) and the risk did end paying off (gathering sufficient intel for the duplication of the Knossos portal). FWIW, the GTVA never had a real chance even if they calculated correctly the danger from the very beggining, since they would have tried to shut down the portal and just wouldn't be able to (see Flaming Sword). Further, it could have been even more dangerous, for they would (a) probably not understand they didn't close the portal sufficiently for a Sathanas not to enter it until it was too late, (b) not have any heads up for the Sat Fleet coming down, (c) generally thought they were safe and ok.
As it were, they started evacuating Cappella right from the get go and never ceased to do so until the end. They did alright, given the circumstances, and they did manage to save hundreds of millions of lives, the Knossos intel, etc. AFAICS, they shouldn't have many political problems on their own (here I disagree slightly with BP canon). The worst problem they would have was for mankind to face itself with the knowledge of the kind of cruel, daunting Lovecraftian cosmos they inhabit. I see a sudden brutal surge of suicide rates, for example, desperate depressions, wild panics everywhere, etc.,etc. It could almost shatter a civilization.
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I wasn't implying a full blown rebellion, least of all during the second incursion. What I meant was there could be fragmentation after Capella went nova and that fragmentation could lead to something more if contact with Sol was reastablished. You could argue it was the GTVA's own fault for alerting the Shivan's in the first place by failing to prevent the NTF from accessing the portal (as ludicrous as it sounds it would make sense from an external, civilian point of view). The GTVA's authority seems to be founded on being the biggest kid on the block. The NTF challenged that authority, whose to say other systems wouldn't after the Capella nova? You don't lose an entire solar system and expect not to have people doubting you, especially when a fair chunk of those people live in former rebel systems or are refugees from Capella.
There's the material losses to consider as well; the fleet's smashed so policing would become an issue, plenty of civlian vessels were lost and an entire solar system of resources. Economically the GTVA is not going to do well after Capella and that alone would breed unrest.
The GTVA lost plenty of civilians during the evacuation of Capella, there would be questions raised as to their ability to defend against the Shivans. That's a whole issue right there: does anyone living in the GTVA really believe there's a military solution to the Shivans? The GTVA is a military solution to a problem that can't be solved. They can't stop the Shivans showing up and they can't beat them when they do. I'll concede that given the circumstances the GTVA had a pretty solid strategy at the end, but when you add up the losses it really isn't going to make a difference to public opinion.
Another thing to consider - the GTVA lost the second incursion. Nothing about it can be claimed as a victory, except perhaps the Knossos intel. The GTVA is therefore a defeated nation and generally speaking people do not react well to losing wars.
EDIT: The worst problem they would have was for mankind to face itself with the knowledge of the kind of cruel, daunting Lovecraftian cosmos they inhabit. I see a sudden brutal surge of suicide rates, for example, desperate depressions, wild panics everywhere, etc.,etc. It could almost shatter a civilization.
That's a really interesting point. You'd have to delude yourself into thinking you could be safe from the Shivans. I'd argue that in the present day we seem pretty comfortable with the prosepct of nuclear annihilation at any point, maybe this would become a problem, maybe not.
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Another thing to consider - the GTVA lost the second incursion. Nothing about it can be claimed as a victory, except perhaps the Knossos intel.
Given the circumstances, survival is a victory in and of itself.
That, and the hundred of thousands of citizens they managed to evacuate.
The GTVA is still in a pretty damn good shape when you take into account they had 80 ****en juggernauts on the other side.
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I understand your reasoning Buckshee, but I just can't agree with it. Blaming terrorist organizations for **** ups is amazingly expedient and efficient with any government, especially if it's even true which it is in this particular example (where it's not even a terrorist org, it's a ****ing secession). It even unites the people under the current political banner they are into. They can say silly things like "Bosch was so hitlerite he even brought the devil into our systems!"
Really, the GTVA can only get many positive points out of this war. It's not the humans fault that the shivans are what they are.
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generally speaking people do not react well to losing wars.
Even though there was nothing more that really could have been done against the Shivans?
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I wasn't implying a full blown rebellion, least of all during the second incursion. What I meant was there could be fragmentation after Capella went nova...
Fragmentation implies either someone is actively rebelling or the lack of real government forces someone to control a system, like after FS1. After FS1 (and ST), there really was no government and what was left of the military was in chaos. I see neither after FS2. The government - which includes to a large part the Vasudans, lets not forget - is still safely in Beta Aquilae and able to manage the refugees, rebuilding in war torn systems, and their long term goals. The military was decimated by the NTF and the shivans, but is still in better shape than after FS1. So if someone isn't actively rebelling, there is no need to fill a power void that isn't there.
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Exactly. Merely the huge coordination that is being done by this government at this time of crisis will only increase and substantiate its power, if anything.